MISCAVIGE MELTDOWN

by Mike Rinder It was a beautiful day in Pinellas County, sunny and warm.   I was standing in a secluded parking lot in shorts and flip-flops talking on the phone while I was waiting for Christie to come out of the doctor’s office (nothing wrong, she consults on nutrition).  I was not really paying attention to anything but was engaged in conversation.   I turned around and suddenly there were 7 people dressed in “business attire” walking towards me, now about 10 feet away:  Jenny Linson, David Bloomberg, Sue “David Miscavige is Scientology” Wilhere, Guillaume “on no post but from International Management” Lesevre, Andrew Rinder (my brother), Taryn Rinder (my daughter) and Cathy Rinder/Bernadini (though she uses another name she kept screaming that she is my wife?). They looked more than a little out of place in their “power suits” (except my brother who was dressed in a polo shirt and looked normal).

They started right in — it was just like being in the hole — 7 people surrounding you yelling and screaming   “You are a fucking SP”,  “Stop doing what you are doing”,  “You are going to die”, “You are trying to destroy Scientology”, “You are hurting your family”, “You disconnected from your family”, “You are killing your mother”, “Stay away from Benjamin” (this last was a little strange given the statements that I refuse to communicate with anyone in my family)  etc. etc. etc.

The rabble was led by Jenny Linson and Cathy Neal/Rubio/Rinder/Bernardini  –  doing a perfect imitation of DM frothing at the mouth and yelling obscenities.  Guillaume said virtually nothing. Bloomberg tried to be Mr. Big and told me several times “Stop what you are doing.”  Sue Wilhere said nothing.   My brother who is an OT 8 but not a Sea Org member was the most civil and sensible and actually seemed to want to communicate something other than screaming “You’re an SP”. My daughter Taryn is a Gold staff member and is indoctrinated into the wonders of Ideal Orgs and I feel some pangs of guilt that I raised her in the SO and that she is now caught in the web of lies.  And of course, lurking in the background were the ever present PIs in sunglasses.

When I told my brother that I would talk to him without the assembled peanut gallery, the screaming only increased with “Tone 40” commands from Jenny to “Shutup and listen” and “you ARE going to hear us”.  I think he was a little surprised to see what he had gotten himself into.  Little does he know what really goes on – but perhaps he is going to now realize from personal experience that the “goodness and light” image that DM tries to portray isn’t quite what it seems.

But, DM couldn’t have foreseen that his little ambush squad would approach me when I was on the phone with John Sweeney from the BBC in the midst of a recorded interview!  So, everything the DMbots said was recorded as it went down by the BBC.  Of course, they were under strict orders from DM about what they were to do, so they just barged ahead with their craziness.  That’s the breaks when people in fear are operating on orders  – they cannot make a decision if something changes.  No “think for yourself”….  In fact, when I informed them they were being recorded by the BBC they seemed to take it as a challenge to their manhood (womanhood? bitchhood?) as if I was trying to trick them (cunning SP that I am).  So, it was all recorded (audio only unfortunately) and they couldn’t have done a better job of convincing the BBC of Miscavige’s insanity and that everything that is said about how people are treated by him and that they will sign perjured affidavits is absolutely, utterly true.  You often hear “he pulled it in” – a much overused justification that some (including DM) use to explain their overts on others – I couldn’t help but think that DM just “pulled it in.”

Jenny kept screaming about how I WAS going to listen to them (I guess she thinks I take orders from her or else she is going to take away my eternity?) and I told her and the assembled others to “Fuck Off” (if this ever airs on US TV there will be a LOT of bleeps though they will get the unadulterated version in the UK).  I then attempted to get in my car and leave.  A scuffle ensued with Dave Bloomberg, Jenny and Cathy holding the car door open as I tried to close it to drive away and my brother taking my keys out of the ignition as I grabbed his hand and bent his finger back (until he told me I was going to break it and I let go).  It wasn’t good odds.  So, I got out of the car to go into the doctor’s office to call the police.   More scuffling ensued as I tried to make my way 50 feet to the door. My sunglasses were knocked off and someone trod on them (my brother later insisted I take his nicer glasses to replace them).   

By this time, the doctor and her staff had heard the ruckus outside and she came to the door and told me I could come in and nobody else was welcome.  Cathy and Taryn barged their way into the doctor’s office saying “he’s my husband” and “he’s my father”.  She told them she didn’t care who they were, it was her office and they weren’t welcome (the rest of the gang were blabbering incoherently at the door).  During the scuffles, Cathy had somehow sustained a cut on her arm that was bleeding.  The doctor tried to 8C her out of her reception area and Cathy started yelling at the doctor “He’s my husband, and you have my blood on your hands”.  Pretty bizarre.  That was after she had shouted at  Christie in front of the Doctor in her reception area “You, you’re a fucking little bitch.”   

The doctor asked if I wanted her to call the police. I told her yes, as I wanted the record made then and there as no doubt the Church would try to claim that I hurt Cathy’s arm and (of course they waited until there were no other witnesses to approach me 7 on 1).  I have no idea how her arm was grazed, Jenny Linson might have bitten her in the throws of her frothing insanity for all I know.

The doctor locked her doors and she and her staff were too scared to venture outside until the police arrived. They were literally terrified.  She even called her next patient and canceled the appointment.  More excellent PR area control for Scientology in the Clearwater community!

The doctor also called the paramedics due to the blood on Cathy’s arm.  The paramedics arrived within a couple of minutes and the Pinellas County Sheriff’s Department (6 cars) showed up about 5 minutes later.  Of course, the real chickenshit rats scurried away before the Sheriff’s arrived – Linson, Lesevre and Bloomberg jumped in their cars and drove off as I waved fondly.   But Cathy was stuck in the ambulance, so Sue Wilhere stayed with her. So did my brother and daughter – the only two civil ones amongst them.  Everyone made statements to the Sheriff’s, as did the doctor and Christie.  I am sure Sue and Cathy would rather have left, but they were kind of stuck.

Just before the Sheriff’s arrived, I asked where my car keys were.  The assembled mob said “they didn’t know.” I told them that would really be a problem as soon as the police arrived – and suddenly Sue Wilhere “found them”.  Childish isn’t the right word for this sort of behavior.

Now, for anyone who thinks I should have “pressed charges” I can assure it would have been a waste of time.  This sort of thing is orchestrated to be 7 on 1 (not counting PIs) with no witnesses for a reason. These people will say anything – even under oath – and would simply claim that I attacked someone first (not true) and it would be a long, drawn out procedure that would, in the end, accomplish nothing. And make no mistake, it was a carefully staged (if botched) operation, they waited until I was alone as my brother said they had seen me yesterday (and all I did was ride my bike with Christie and Shane to the park so they were out stalking in the neighborhood).  The police DO have all the statements from the witnesses and they issued a trespass warning to the Church people who didn’t flee. There was little else they could do. 

Don’t worry, because better than criminal charges that go nowhere – it was all recorded by the BBC as it went down. And that is far more devastating in the long run.  

As for my brother and daughter (who I did manage to speak to alone for a few minutes), I told them they both looked good and I was very happy to see that.  I also told them they don’t know what is going on and challenged Taryn about the Ideal Orgs and how off policy it is and whether she thinks Miscavige beating people is acceptable.  And with my brother, I asked him if he knew what inurnment is because Miscavige is engaged in it and he is going to destroy the Church through his out ethics.  Of course, under the circumstances they aren’t going to agree with me.  But maybe they will think about it.  My brother asked me for my phone number so he could call me to have dinner, just him and me “if he can get permission.” I gladly gave it to him and told him any time.  But if he is going to ask permission, it’s never going to happen. One day I hope he will decide to do it on his own.

If anyone needed current proof that the activities of the Hole are still ongoing, it was played out in full living color today.  It was vintage DM, gang-bang yelling and screaming, attempting to drive in anchor points and intimidate.  Problem is that it occurred in the parking lot of a doctor’s office in Clearwater.  The doors weren’t barred. There was no Security Force muscle and there ARE phones with which to call law enforcement.   So, it didn’t work out so well for DM. In fact, as has become his personal trademark, he delivered himself yet another massive footbullet.

Meanwhile, he sits stewing in massive MWH phenomena, lashing out with wild animal reactions, wondering which of his crimes is going to be exposed next.

And he should be worried.

791 responses to “MISCAVIGE MELTDOWN

  1. First let me say that I am thankful no one was hurt. And that you were able to have some semblance of 2 comm cycles.

    I almost wish both you and Marty could get in to a witness protection program.

    David Miscavige is insane.

    And its goung to be on the BBC…;)

    Thanks for the update Mike. Stay safe.

    • Gary Morehead aka "Jackson"

      Mike, You are the same person I’ve always known you to be… but a heck of alot cooler! I am pretty sure you were more entertained by this whole ordeal than most of those who have read your write up are aware of. Like Marty, and I am sure it is exactly what is driving Dave nutzazoid, is that you haven’t changed. You are way too smart of a person to be outwitted, overcome and compunded into something you are not. He tried it on the inside and relied on your loyalty to respond to his demands. Now you have no loyalty to him, very much like I and the many others here tossed out the window like a bogger from our fingers, , but yet we remain the same strong person we have always been. Out Loyalty is with LRH and the technology he left for us to enjoy. That drives him nutz yet again. In Dave’s world LRH is gone and he is HERE, so why don’t they listen and respond like their supposed to. Well Dave my answer is as I said, I flicked my loyalty to you out the window with the booger that was once upon my finger.! Mike, a solid BOO – YA to you my firend and here is a toast to your successful efforts of having jumped many feet ahead from where you were just 30 seconds before they arrived at having your family reconnected. — Jackson

      • Jackson,

        Thanks for your kind words old friend. You are exactly right — for a long time I and others believed that remaining loyal to LRH required remaining in the Sea Org and supporting Miscavige. Those days are history — LRH would expect those who are loyal to him to do everything in their power to prevent Miscavige from destroying his legacy. And he is doing a damn fine job of it.

        What is hardest to understand is that people under his spell don’t see him for what he is. The LRH tech is right under their noses and if they would obnose what is really going on, they would see for themselves.

        When the latest Idle Orgs are playing the DM Birthday Game — literally going for completion of their Idle Org for DM’s Birthday on 30 April — you don’t have to look much further to see how far from LRH the C of M has veered.

        It’s a sad scene, but not without hope. There are a lot of good people who are working to change it, and truth with always prevail in the end.

        Mike

      • Mike: “Idle Orgs are playing the DM Birthday Game — literally going for completion of their Idle Org for DM’s Birthday on 30 April”…

        You’ve GOT to be kidding me! Is DM promoting this date overtly in the written programs and verbally by those pushing for completion as being his BD, or is it a “coincidence” this date was chosen. Curious and caring minds wish to know!

        If it’s the former, then you are right Mike, it’s right under their noses he’s supplanting himself for LRH in his misguided zeal.

        • Mickey,

          No, unfortunately, it is the former. The org is promoting to their field to “complete the fundraising for the Idle Org by COB’s birthday.”

          If this doesnt get your gag reflex going, you are incapable of being revived.

          Mike

      • Wow I didn’t know Miscavige’s birthday is just ten days after another famous celebrity:

        What auspicious company :)

        You’re right Mike when I read about getting some Idle Org done before the lil’ führer’s birthday I felt like jugging down a bottle of Pepto-Bismol to fight off the gag reflux!

        GAK!!!!

        You did some great work there with your cell phone can’t wait to hear the result.

    • 30th of April was Hitlers day of death. It is alsoo a holliday in my country for another reason. “Koninginnedag”or Queensday wich has a funny conotation when linked with Davey the Drama Queen.

    • I don’t even like Scientology and I’m gagging. You can be sure there are a LOT of SO and staff members and public Scientologists, loyal to LRH, who are also sickened by this (COB’s Bday), fully aware of what’s wrong with the picture, but unable to say anything about it and uncertain what to do. I think it would be smart to remind them of it as often as possible, and give them suggestions what to do. (“Blow” comes to mind.)

  2. I’m so sorry you had to go through this. How utterly unpleasant. But on the bright side, it was all audio recorded. The Dwarf NEVER counted on that. Maybe he’ll put them all in the Hole for such a screw up.

    How on earth can those involved even remotely think their behavior has anything to do with religion and/or spiritual freedom? It’s like they’re in the Dwarf’s valence. Now that’s a spooky thought. Are there more dwarfs just waiting for their marching orders?

    Might want to have the BBC on speed-dial for the next round.

    Note to the Dwarf: Dude, you’re losing it. Time to cry “uncle”, pack up your cash & your lackeys and hit the road.
    ps. Don’t forget to take your shoe lifts.

  3. Damn, Mike. Friggin’ unbelievable.

    Re: DM delivering himself another massive footbullet. Sorry, but I disagree. He’s shot both feet off long ago and now is delivering himself ankle and shin bullets.

    Damn. The end is approaching fast. Please keep vigilant.

  4. I’m sorry for you Mike, to have experienced this kind of craven, vampiric assault. But I’m glad you got a chance to say a word to both your daughter and your brother. This cannot be sitting well with either, no matter how sure they may have been of their rightness prior to this attack on you.

    The pressure on the people around miscavige is obviously unbearable – look what it’s doing to them. And since the kind of debacle they committed only makes that situation worse, I guess we should expect more of the kind, and probably worse, if these psychotics (more of those everyday) aren’t stopped.

    When-oh-when will we see that BBC interview?

    • Eleanor Gehrig

      Luna, vampiric is the exact right adjective.

      Mike, keep fighting the good fight, brother. This situation is temporary.

      Ellie

  5. Un-freaking-believable on so many levels. The BBC must be thrilled beyond belief. DM must be pissed beyond belief. How about you OSA guys monitoring the wild, wild world of Independent Scientology–what are your feelings about all this?

    This is far beyond anything I’ve heard or witnessed.

    Now, let’s just imagine the thought process that was behind this “caper.” SomeONE actually is the source of the idea to send a contingent to Clearwater, stalk Mike and when he’s alone, ambush him with “Tone 40″ commands delivered at 110 decibels to cave him in. This is Scientology Voodoo. At least in Haiti they stick pins in the effigy. That might work some small percentage of the time on someone who has gone into agreement with the art of voodoo.

    This is what it has come to? Voodoo? To quote DM, “Are you freaking kidding me?!!!!!”

    What’s not covered in Mike’s account is what happened to the Ridiculous Seven when their attempts to impinge didn’t. Everything they spat out comes back and hits THEM in the face.

    Next time someone insults you or makes a crack simply ignore it with perfect equanimity. What they outflowed snaps back in on them automatically.

    And from Mike’s report he seems to have remained fairly even keeled during the whole thing.

    Oh, to have been a cicada in the trees for that one.

    Wow.

  6. Mike I’m so sorry for what happened to you. :-( but I am overjoyed that the BBC was recording it.

  7. All I can say is WOW! You are freely standing in a parking lot minding your own business talking on a cell and POW are attacked by psychos in Clearwater of all places. This is absolutely so bizarre! What did they think you were going to melt in a pool and grovel at their feet?

    Mike, you did a great job of handling this insanity.

    ML, Jan

  8. OMG, These people are so sick. Sorry you had to go through this Mike. This is in no way a demonstration of “freedom”.

    DM, why are you so obsessed with Mike and Marty. I can understand that you’re worried because they know your crimes but I think there is something more going on. Shortie, is it that you need to just “come out of the closet”? Do you get my drift?

  9. Mike,

    What a mess! And what a typical DM C/S executed by the usual suspects in their AC360 tone of “YOU’RE WRONG AND WE’RE RIGHT—DID YOU CHANGE YOUR MIND YET?”

    Yeah, that’s a good plan. It probably worked so well they’ll try it a few more times.

    The good news is you’re safe. Until this program escalates and turns truly dangerous, it remains thigh-slapping hilarity. I say we pour some margaritas and watch the videotape a few more times! After all, it’s Friday night!

    Love,

    Just Me

    • Just me:

      You have no idea how spot on you are.

      I promise you DM thought these clowns did a good job on AC 360 of “impinging” on Anderson Cooper. So, when Marty and I went to the FH last week to ask to see my son, he got all hot and bothered and decided he had to “impinge” on me. So, he flew my brother from Australia and my daughter and ex-wife in with 4 “minders” including his chief buttkisser Jenny. He told them to go and tell me to stop. There is a bulletin that says you tell an SP “No,” so that was the “tech” they were applying and DM explained to them how brilliant and on-Source he is and told them all “this is what I would do if that little SP was in front of me” and had them drilled and drilled and sent off to “impinge”. That was the extent of the “thinking” behind this idiotic maneuver, and yes, they probably will try it a few more times.

      As a very dear and extremely perceptive friend of mine said: “What were they thinking? That you would break down sobbing on their shoulders and ask to be sent to the bilges to do amends?” The answer, unfortunately, is “Yes.” That is how out of touch with reality Miscavige is.

      Have a margarita for me!

      Mike

      • It’s pathetic what is called “thinking” these days! If what DearMidget does is *thinking,” then the only geniuses in our society are computers. Or maybe rocks.

        DM proves the reality of whole track dramatizations. If it weren’t so damned serious, he would make a good comic book character. :)

      • Moving Forward

        Amazing — and yes, any viewpoint outside of DMonology is lost completely on these guys now (although hopefully at least your brother and daughter will be able to shake out of it).

        Invalidation, intimidation, threats, screaming and swearing have become so normal in the church as ‘the way to get the product’ and they have no idea how this looks to the outside world. It’s crazy.

      • Mike — sorry to hear that you had to endure this. Happy though that you were unharmed, both physically or mentally and were able to see your daughter and brother.

        Indeed dm thinks this is the way to get something done. I remember years ago during the Wollersheim trial in LA — dm screamed at the top of his lungs in the hallway of a courtroom to the opposing attorney — something about stop lying my founder — at the TOP of his lungs.

        This became an urban legend in LA.

        The fact that that trial was ultimately lost, I guess is lost on him.

        What dm lacks in brains, he makes up in, in height. :)

        Best to you, Mike.
        WH

  10. My god what a story.
    This must be really hard for you Mike, with your own children and brother involved. I know that’s quite painful.

    I must admit though John Sweeny is probably dancing a jig, after Tommy wore him down in the last BBC coverage of the church.

    I didn’t really think Sweeney did anything at all wrong but he was quite the gentleman to own up to what he felt were unprofessional actions. No telling how many different kinds of crazy they tried to drive him before he decided to use his own version of tone 40 on them haha.

    SO, I am absolutely delighted that he got this scoop today.

    Lets hope things are really close to changing and that you can reconnect with your family again soon, that is so sad.

  11. Mikey,
    I liked those aviators!

    Dave, well…what does one say at a time like this. You are out-classed, out-beingnessed, out-confronted, out-done, out-created.

    I’ll take some havingness here, after all these years, after all that has transpired, after this crucible and baptism of fire I and my friends have made it through and emerged unscathed, stronger and shinier than ever: Ahhhhhhhhh. That’s roit some noice, wha. Yessss, noice indeed.

  12. What a scene!! Mike and Christie and your doctor — great on handling a gang thug ambush that tests the best of courage, sanity and confront.

    I am cheering at the Divine Justice of the fact that you were on the phone with the BBC. There’s a saying: God works in mysterious ways. My take on that is: when living in the pocket of Grace, which is Theta, all manner of Theta, seen and unseen, move to support and protect its own.

    I’m glad you’re all right. You’re more than all right, even though that had to be rattling.

    Juxtaposing that gang (in suits!) assault in society’s daylight of human decency, they are glaringly, as you put it, out of place. Out of line, out of touch, out of time.

    *The implications of this hell scene that was ordered in on you are the tip of an iceberg that cannot be underestimated in protecting ourselves and society.*

  13. Freedom Fighter

    Holy sh*t! What a bunch of psychos! Absolutely priceless that you were in the middle of a phone interview with the BBC at the time. Wahoo! Priceless!

    Their actions SO don’t represent the Church I joined over 20 years ago. It would have been hilarious if you’d handed each of them a WTH booklet. I can count at least 9 precepts that they violated in just this one incident. These guys must lead absolutely miserable lives.

    • >It would have been hilarious if you’d handed each of them a WTH booklet.

      LOL!! That I would pay to see!

      “Pain, misemotion, unconsciousness, insanity—all result from causing things others could not experience easily. The reach-withhold phenomenon is the basis of all these things.” — LRH, Two Rules For Happy Living (A New Slant On Life)

  14. Wow! At least they are publically exposing themselves as the frothing lunatics that they are!

    How fortuitous that it was recorded by the BBC (and too bad there was no vidio).

    As for pressing charges: One thing that might actually make that fruitful is that it’s obvious this riotous group acosted *you* with the intent of harrassing you, as you were going about your private business. Otherwise, why would they have been there? So they can lie from now until the moon starts laughing, but they can’t explain away their pressence where you just happened to be.

    DM is not merely a giant SP, it looks like he’s really going Type 3. Now if only people who have retained some sanity, like your brother, would wake up and look.

  15. Hello Mike!

    I am so glad that this attack has been recorded. I am not happy that it happened to you. You have been through enough and this really should be the last draw. If I may, I suggest looking into a stalking Protection From Abuse order.

    I respect you deeply for everything you have been through and the amazing amount of restraint you showed in this last situation.

    This attack shows that DM is now struggling. It also shows the extent of his insanity. This attack was horrible and since it was recorded, something more should happen to them.

    I wish there was more I could do for you. Hang in there Mike. Know that you have more friends than they can truly count.

    Meisha

  16. what your donnations buy…DM-BOTS!

  17. This is unreal, surreal, this is David Miscavige meets an episode of Friends.

    My daughters love Friends, have all the DVDs , insist we watch it all the time so I’m an expert … you get my drift. Anyway, let me elaborate …

    There is an episode of Friends in which Ben Stiller makes a guest appearance as the boyfriend of Rachel Green. Ross (who still has a thing for Rachel) witnesses Stiller being unbelievably and alarmingly vicious. He tries desperately to convince the world that Stiller is crazy, a vicious loony but nobody is buying it, in this case because they think it might be sour grapes on Ross’s part. And Stiller keeps being vicious but the only ones that know it for a fact are Ross and you (the viewer).

    Ross gives up trying to convince everyone of Stiller’s insanity but just about that time a tiny little chick Stiller is holding inadvertently poops on his hand and he launches into a snarling, viscous tirade at the 4 inch high chick now running around on the table top, I mean he lets loose at the little furry creature.

    But unknown to him Ross & friends are all standing behind him in the room witnessing the whole thing with looks of horror frozen on their faces.

    Stiller sees them … he knows the game is up, he blows.

    My point? There are two:

    1. I thought even Hollywood couldn’t make this Miscavige stuff up but I guess today proved that’s not the case.

    2. Let’s hope the ending is the same.

  18. Mike,

    What was hitting you is David Miscavige’s case.

    It was David Miscavige’s case going through the via of those people.

  19. Nice. I can’t wait to see the BBC program. How will we see it in the States?

  20. Good on you Mike. Why does Jenny have to blow every meeting with a Scn family member, well at least for the church’s sake.

    She did the same thing with my parents. I guess the good thing is my parents now know at least she is a liar. So I am sure the same thing is going through Andrew’s head as I am sure they told him to come with him so they can “handle” it but then proved they had no intention of handling anything.

    • Dallas,

      Jenny blows every meeting because she’s in DM’s SP valence. And on top of it, she isn’t too bright. I guess SP idiots can’t be expected to have very good stats. :)

    • Hi Dallas!

      Jenny blows every meeting because she is a sock puppet of Miscavige. He literally controls her every move and utterance. He sits in his bat-cave going over in his mind the things he wants said. He has no concept of the person it is going to be said to — I think in some delusory fashion he applies the Letter Reg PL which says to communicate what is on your mind. Unfortunately, what is on his mind constantly is vengeance and extreme anger. So he winds Jenny up like a little doll body, implants her with the words she is to say and sends her off to do his bidding. And he thinks whe is wonderful as she will report back “Yes, Sir, I told him he was cocksucker and spat in his face. Boy, it really impinged.” Of course, she has no idea who she was talking to and couldnt obnose whether she had a comm cycle or not, but she did what COB told her, so she lives another day. And that is the reality of what happens.

      On the other side of the (non) comm cycle, the person is sitting there thinking “This little bitch is insane”. There is NO “R,” NO “A” and enforced “C”. That is thhe formula for creating ARC breaks.

      I know you and Jenna experienced that with her and Angie. I can only imagine how it went down — but I do know the mechanism at work.

      Hope you, Jenna and Archie are all doing well.

      Mike

      • Mike, I gotta tell you, your comments are just as informative and insightful into the inner workings of this guy’s mind as your initial posts are.

        So, please keep adding and contributing and responding to whatever the comments of others are reminding and inspiring you to say.

        It’s very helpful to all who read (fence sitters take note) to give us an idea of the real and other secret, hidden side of this enigma.

  21. David Miscavige, YOU ARE A COWARD !

  22. Mike,

    I just thought of something else: Since the whole attack was recorded, you have evidence against their lies. So why not file charges? I mean, if they lie they will be exposed not only as lunatics but also as liars. It’s on tape, you have a record of it (that is, the BBC does). And if you were to press charges it would help expose this utter insanity to the light of truth.

    • Tone 41: Unfortunately, the audio recording doesnt show physical actions. They would have claimed that I had struck someone or shoved them or something. Believe me, I know how this game is played. That avenue is a loser. But that certainly doesnt mean anything is lost. And even if something did happen with the people that came this time, there is an endless supply of cannon fodder that Miscavige can send to do his bidding. Had it been HIM (OMG, imagine he ever came out of hiding to confront anyone in circumstances where you could actually talk back?) that would have been a different story and worth pursuing. Mike

      • But Mike, I want to get that SP so badly! Oh well, I’m sure you know the ropes better than most of us. At least we’ll be able to hear their vicious voices telling the world who they really are on the BBC broadcast.

    • Mr. Rinder so much must be thumbling through your mind. If charing some of them (4 or 5)will get others present (2 or 3) to open their eyes quicker maybe it is worth it. DM will try anyone to lie. Some will have harder times to do so than others I hope.

      This must have been sureal and the onley thing you could have done you did. You made the best of a tricky situation.

      It seems you have in this independent group a network and a source of knwledge and manpower you can fall back on.

      I am happy you got to speak to your family, I hope they get out of the trap soon.

      You showed love under duress that’s a hard thing to do.

    • tone41,

      MR is correct in not pressing charges, because the recording may be suppressed as evidence. The Church may hold thing up in court for years.
      Best if it goes forward as soon as possible to air on the BBC while the subject is Hot.

      • because . . .

        My urge would be to try to nail the vicious devils with that tape, but I recognize that Mike knows what he’s doing and how to play the game. So I guess we’ll just have to wait for the BBC program.

  23. Disgusting behaviour. Absolutely despicable. It makes a mockery of Scientology; shame on them and shame on you COB RTC. You are a disgrace.

    Mike, stay safe and be well.

  24. AWWWWWWE-SOMMMMME!

    The BBC angle is absolutely priceless. If I saw it in a movie, I would shoot the screenwriter for implausible writing — but in real life — it just makes so much sense.

    Also, Mike, I’m glad you got an opportunity to speak to your family at least a bit.

  25. Mike,

    I’m sorry to see you attacked in such a cowardly way. DM and his thugs are losing all creditability.

    Hopefully this will help in some way to resolve the disconnect your family has placed on you.

    I’m looking forward to your upcoming BBC interview and the crimes you will be exposing on DM.

    Thanks for taking the stand you have, and I’m proud to stand with you.

  26. The thick plottens…

  27. crashing upwards

    Hang in there Mike. Better days are comming. The pluses here are you got to see and speak to some of your family and plant some seeds of truth. Another plus is you not still married to Cathy. And the best plus of all is you never were and never will be married to Jenny. What a walking horror show of evil she seems to be. She creeps me out.
    Their screams and pressures are hollow and useless against you. Your walking tall. You always did.

    • Crashing,

      LOL — “never were and never will” and never have truer words been spoken! She creeps everyone out that doesnt have to call her “sir”.

      I appreciate your oft expressed kind words. You are a very decent person and you are in very good company here.

      Mike

      • “He’s my husband, and you have my blood on your hands.”

        Mike, you two still aren’t married are you? If not, would this be the “acceptable truth” (perverted and altered) technique in action and part of the DM C/S you think?

        • Mickey,

          Who knows. She was the one that filed for divorce in California with the help of the Church’s lawyers. I never bothered to check. Maybe they had some bright idea of withdrawing the petition or something so they could use her and hide behind some spousal privilege or something. I will check into the status of the case. I could tell today that she really is trying to get me back. The love and affection she sent my way was quite something to behold!

          Mike

      • It’s 4:30 AM, I’m reading Mike’s reply to Mickey –

        “I could tell today that she really is trying to get me back. The love and affection she sent my way was quite something to behold.”

        And I haven’t stopped laughing. Perfect!!

        WH

      • Mike- my ex contacted me after 15 years letting me know that our divorce wasn’t final, that the California courts screwed it up. Lucky for me I lived in Utah and it took about 90 days. I’m lucky not to have gotten remarried twice in that time.

  28. WOW!

    I see this as a good thing.

    First, it was recorded so that it can be heard by people outside the bubble of scientology, and have the weight of an outside reality in play.

    And second, the magnificent 7, being compelled to carry out this caper, with be exposed to life outside the bubble. Sooner, more likely than later, their rationalizations and mutual out rudiments will wear down…

    Leaving miscavige alone with his thoughts…

    • (will be exposed to life outside the bubble..not with)

      Movement is progress! People close to miscavige communicating, at what ever level, will result in understanding. Perhaps with a change in their reality….they cannot remain so stridently unaware forever..

    • Of course when I say that I see this as a good thing, I should also acknowledge the price it comes with, for Mike personally and the people around him who bear the emotional and physical brunt of it.

      Thank you Mike for taking the point.

    • Mike, Im sorry this happened to you, but you handled it brilliantly.

      I find it so hard to believe that the happy, fun loving person I knew as Cathy Rinder has turned into this other person defending DM over her husband. I hope she comes to her senses.

      I hope you were able to let Taryn know that there is a safe haven for her our here when she leaves. Im sure you were happy to see her again.

      Yours, Mark

  29. They are 100% self-destructive. VERY WELL DONE Mike. I think this ought to get through some of the more dense heads that everything we have been saying is the honest-to-god facts. Very well done in dealing with the ambush. I’d score it 7 TKOs on your side, 0 points on theirs.

  30. What would this crowd like? For you to be cool with embezzlement and ideal orgs and the IAS vs. workable finance system and downstats, basics in the way of auditor training, and all this CRYSTAL CLEAR in policy?

    The heart and soul of what makes Scientology viable from an administrative viewpoint has been torn apart from ten different directions. Nothing has been spared except books to libraries.

    To any thinking man it’s obvious who’s tearing Scientology down and it’s this crew’s complicity.

    They MUST scream because for you to be able to calmly get a word in edgwise mentioning the policies that apply, would tear their make-believe world apart.

    The Independents can afford to be very gentle in the face of ambush’s like this. The mob most fears that you calmly put across to them step by step how they’re the squirrels. Maybe yelling back would be called for in this type of situation but either way is fine. Hopefully in the BBC you get to explain some of the policy violations and how this forces them to be so rabid. Obviously that would be ideal but either way it looks like the presentation is shaping up to impinge in a good way, good job Mike.

  31. Mike, thank you for speaking up and for sticking your neck out to try to stop the abuses by DM. It must be really painful to see your daughter and brother be forced to behave in this manner. I hope they both wake up soon. You are doing the right thing, painful as it is. Hopefully someday your family members will see that. I think taking the high road is always good, because it makes people wonder who the bad guys are. You are one of the good ones for doing this.

    I have two dear friends whose daughters are in the Sea Org, and they have been denied contact. It’s the saddest thing in the world. Hopefully your actions will ultimately lead to these mothers reconnecting with their daughters.

  32. This is where a mirror spell can come in really handy. It’s a theta mockup (a sphere around the person just outside their anchor points) where you send negative energy intended for you back at them and it doesn’t pass through the barrier you create around them.

    First time I did it, I amplified it and caused the recipient to literally foam at the mouth. Not my intent.

    These days, I sent the reflected energy at their defenses and rationalizations.

    Interesting results, to say the least.

    (Yes, I’m aware this is an “other practice” but it is also using theta capabilities and takes no formal training in spell work.)

  33. What I don’t get is how Kathy B. got cut. Was someone carrying a knife? Seems like the only explanation.

    • BC — I dont know. It was more like a graze. Maybe she fell down or something? Or Maybe Jenny really did bite her? As Crashing Upwards said, she really is creepy… Mike

      • Could have been something as simple as grazed by someone’s watch band, a woman’s earring, someone’s fingernail…there are many benign possibilities. Although, in keeping with the vampiric theme established earlier…

        Mike, you might want to take to carrying a stake with you at all times.

      • How to hurt a thetan: make the being believe it has harmed someone or something.

        “He’s my husband, and you have my blood on your hands.”

      • It’s time to purchase some good bear spray, mace or pepper spray. They want to threaten you, you have no choice but to act in self defense!

      • I second the idea that Mike should carry a stake when in the same city as Jenny. That woman is creepy indeed!

    • Carrying mace was suggested but I don’t know that I’d do that. Could get you in trouble in some areas. However, a large size can of Raid would do the trick. Yeh, bug spray will back off the human roaches too!

  34. Mike, do you have any idea when the BBC will air their piece?

  35. Mike,

    Without restating all the terrific stuff already said here – all of which I agree with – just want to add that I really appreciate your written delivery of the incident. Had me from the first words (of course Marty’s tease was a boost) and then oohhhhh mmmyyyyy, hehehehe, eeeek! Hahaha, chuckle. Woop! Jeezus. Facepalm. and finally – impressive story, damn impressive man. Damn impressive.

  36. Mike ~~
    I could just visualize your superlative TRs.
    7 against 1.
    This is true DM.
    The ONLY communication he emits is through FORCE and OVERWHELM.
    The only tone level is PUNISHING/CONTROLLING bodies.
    Jenny Linson was the worst of the ex-wives on CNN. A Black widow spider devouring- her mate-kind of image.
    Imagine using her again.
    Yes, DM is descending into further insanity
    nevertheless while he is there, he is still a reptilian predator, ready to lunge with force and overwhelm.
    How very becoming for the “leader” of a religion.

  37. Let’s see – we have the police investigating an incident. Interviewing Scientologists who were involved. The incident being recorded by BBC. Now isn’t there a flag order that states creating s shore flap is treason? How is DM defining a shore flap?

    • Well, Lou, I’ll tell you how I feel about it. With any luck, when the SO is disbanded, all the Flag Orders will be recycled into toilet paper for DMs cell. (sorry for the potty humor)

      • Marta,
        Now, now, you gotta keep in mind, it’s not the FO’s but the intention to pervert and destroy while using the FO’s as ‘cover’. That’s what this is. DM is diametrically opposite to sense. Aside from that, every policy, which means Flag Orders must align to training and auditing. If they don’t, then by all means, toss them. I think when this is all said and done, a thorough review of F.O.s will reveal they are fine. Those that aren’t, well, poo-poo paper they be. (Best have some kleenex as a backup).

      • Ok, jim, I guess there’s always gotta be a straight-man in the crowd. blah, blah, let’s be sensible, and all that. But, can we atleast review the FOs last – after all the Red and Green and the other colors? Seriously, no more military, please. And, hierarchial operational structure is soooo obsolete….dude, seriously.

      • Hey Jim, there’s that famous one…”2D rules”, named after an actual PL with the same title that says the OPPOSITE of what the FO says. I wonder how many went to the RPF on that one, NOT written by LRH. (ok, ok, maybe I’ve got just a tad BBC on this…I guess I could use a little of that “heavy petting” right now…)

      • Marta,

        I hear you. I agree with you, and I think you’ll find you have a lot more agreement than is perhaps expressed on this blog. But that’s an issue for another day.

      • Marta I like your vision.

      • Just gotta weigh in one more time here – tho no one may see. Lunamoth, thanks, Cat Daddy, too. I’m still enjoying that vision :)

        Jim – Managers ask “how”, Leaders ask “Why”. Toward what end. If policy is used as “law” or “scripture” it will most likley fall into orders and be used for the “purpose” of control.

        Going thru all the FOs (and other PLs) you say? Who? A select group? That won’t do it for me – maybe, just maybe if they’re ALL made public for inspection – thats’ ALL, as in no more secret society elitist groups or strata. No more operational policies as “sacred scripture” – that’s the cult-route, not to mention silly (IMHO, having been there done that drunk the kool-aid, quote the raven nevermore).

        Ok. Another day!

    • Marta,
      Here’s a bit from PL 13 March 65 Iss II, Routing Policies, Comm Member System that possibly applies to this:

      “Differentiate amongst purposes, sub-purposes, senior policy, routine policy, directives, momentary orders and advice. All policy does not have equal value. Policy can’t exist down to the details of getting it into effect. That requires orders and advice. The policy of “Get the job done!” is very senior to a policy relating to the expenditure of ballpoints. A martinet is only one who insists on following policy down to idiot level, using policy for how to shine shoes or bite fingernails. A good leader only gets major policy in hard and uses the rest as specific orders or
      advices. Not following important policies is a shooting offense. Using small policy as a means of avoiding the major policy is also a shooting offense.”

  38. Hey Mike, Do you think that either Jenny Linson, Cathy Neal/Rubio/Rinder/Bernardini, Guillaume Lesèvre, David Bloomberg or Sue “David Miscavige is Scientology” Wilhere will be invited to the BBC? Being asked “any comments?”

    • Moving Forward

      I’m thinking Jenny may be next in line as spokesperson since she’s clearly thought to be doing such a stellar job… How fun would that be?

      • Yeah….was noting the absence lately of the Tommy Davis guy. Is Jenny now the new spokesperson international?

      • Yeah, I’ve been missing tommy, too. There’s just no one else who can whine like him. He’s fascinating to watch, plus, he has been such a huge help in exposing dm’s crimes and the insanity inside the church.

        Oh, Snidley Whiplash, where have you gone?

      • Could it possibly be that TD is doing time in the Hole? Maybe 30 days….

        • Monte, thanks. One of my old favorites. Sometimes comes to mind when talking about the hole. Liked the Live at the Filmore East version best.

  39. Mike,

    You need some 007 type flip flops with exploding insoles you can fling at robots in parking lots!

    • And a handy-dandy hidden voice activated video camera too!
      Since the PIs were around, maybe BBC could ask THEM for their video tapes.

  40. Any chance some security camera nearby caught any of the action?

    On the upside, it sounds like you got your foot in the door with your brother.
    Chances are is he’ll get a double extra helping of sec checks, mistrust and accusations. He’ll wise up, no doubt about it.

    • Now THAT is a good point, Nomnom. Security cameras are virtually everywhere these days. Mike? It’s worth checking.

      • Unfortunately, no security cameras there.

      • Oh well. Maybe one of the PI’s will let us have his copy :)

      • The PIs probably were instructed to video the enactment of DM’s script from several angles (perhaps they even had it set up so that it was a real time live stream to him) so that he could gloat over his masterful creation as well as tweak it for future presentations. Mike, though, for whatever the reason, did not receive his script for this scene from DM so had to adlib as best he could. And, in reading Mike’s description of the performance, I suspect that the direction that Mike chose to take with his adlibing just didn’t set well with DM as it entered in an alternate ending to the performance. An alternate ending that was way off the mark from what DM had envisioned or expected. Damn these independent, headstrong, free thinking, freelance game players!! What’s a despotic dwarf wanna be screen writer, director to do?!! Of course, assemble the minions and order them to find a Mike Rinder that will stay on script! Can that be so fu*king difficult!!!!

        Great job Mike! It’s LRH’s Mission Earth all over again. Just new props and new names for the cast of characters but the script is holding pretty true to the original. Please excuse me. I’m about to have an “Ah ha!” moment. Here goes…That’s it! That’s why I’m addicted to these blogs! It’s Mission Earth. Only I’m not exterior to it….I’m actually in it! Oh yeah, that was a rather good “Ah ha” moment. :) Now, where was I? Okay, I remember…

        Now, about those PIs and their videos of the performance…I would bet that a copy of such would be worth quite a bit of moola to the right party. Certainly more than what a PI makes in a year. Or, could be worth even more used to blackmail der Fuhrer. After all, der Fuhrer probably has deeper pockets than the BBC. And, I would bet that in amongst the assembly of PIs the church has contracted with, that there is more than one enterprising, entrepreneurial “Private Dick” that can see the opportunity of a lifetime presented here.

      • Monte, you are so right! We are living Mission Earth… Oh God you got me laughing with that one!

      • Me too, Monte!!!!

        I LMAO on the analogy to ME.

        Miscavige reminds me of Solten Gris taking his cue from Bugs Bunny!

        Especially after the Looney Tunes Mike had to deal with!

        All I can say is:

      • Monte, we seriously needed some serious humor injected here. Great stuff.

        Wondering if any of those PIs got off work and secretly went and read an accounting of their day?! If so, you’ve given some great ideas here to act upon.

  41. Oh my goodness things are heating up. While having the BBC on the line while this happened certainly is a good ‘backup’ (lol, how often does THAT happen?) having a video to throw up on youtube is nothing short of stellar documentation.

    Honestly gents, whether for your own protection or that of your loved ones, carry a video camera. They aren’t even very pricey anymore. Take a page out of the Anonymous playbook and tape EVERYTHING, especially when in the belly of the beast (and carry extra batteries, and if there are several of you, carry more than one video camera..please?).

    God I hope this is over soon before any more people are seriously hurt, or worse.

    Stay safe <3

  42. The tide has really turned. It used to be people who’d left the C of S demonstrating at a church. Now it’s SO people creating their own demonstration. Interesting.

    Well you know what LRH says to do when you’re getting TA. And man are you getting TA. Keep going!

    ps. I like the Way to Happiness idea that Freedom Fighter had. If it happens again, hand out booklets to the lunatics. Of course, the DM-Bots are so rabid they’d probably toss them on the ground.

  43. Now that the emergency is over, all I can say is VWD! Awesome documentation!

    I thought you and Marty had big cojones showing up at the FH…but keeping your wits about you mid attack and keeping the line open on the BBC interview to document it all…I’m impressed!!!

    DM clearly doesn’t get what he is up against and it will be his undoing.

  44. one of those who see

    So, Guillaume Lesevre, who the public still believe is ED INT – is taken off one of the most important posts in Scientology, flown to Clearwater, to stand in a crowd of 7 Sea Org Members and public to yell at Mike Rinder, who is no longer on staff. I’m sorry, but this alone is so off the wall. I’m speechless.

    Then, just on the point of wasting donations, DM should be busted off post.

    Then, there is – “the tech from I don’t know what planet!!” being applied with the gang bang yelling and cursing.

    There is no Scientology in this scenario – none. Except Mike getting in comm with his daughter and brother. Well done for being able to think during a scene like that.

    And what is with this keeping car doors open and taking keys or blocking doors and elevators… How many of us have had this happen?!! Whatever this dramatization is – it is wierd & restimulating.
    And what products are we supposed to be getting with Scientology? Oh yeah, freed beings!

    Sorry to vent, but Jeez!

    Hope you can chill out and have some fun this weekend Mike, you deserve it. I knew Christie as a teenager. Such a beautiful girl. I need to stay under the radar because of family. But, please give her a hug for me.

    My postulates are with you, that your brother get and your children get in comm soon.

    • Actually, I don’t think GL has been on any post since circa 2000 or so. That’s 10 years. They don’t do any standard post functions, it’s just work on event speeches, do amends, do specific handlings ordered by DM like repost everyone at the Int base, workout who’s going to be offloaded, and other stupid pointless projects none of which have anything to do with standard tech or policy or a real post.

      • Steve,

        The niormal date used by the Church is 2002 — they always say “he was removed from all positions of authority in 2002″. You are probably more accurate in saying 2000 after everyone at the Gold Base got put in lower conditions after the NY 2000 event, but the Church at least acknowledges it was no later than 2002.

        And dont forget that in the Hole the projects were beating up other people (mentally and sometimes physically) in gang-bang group “seances” to force confessions out of people. So, they’ve had plenty of practice for their little effort today.

        Mike

      • Moving Forward

        Interesting — it’s officially been said that he was removed from all positions of authority in 2002?

        I was wondering about this because I wrote to him around 2004 and received several replies with letterhead stating he was ED Int. So, the church was at least representing to public who wrote on the SO #1 line that he was still on that post.

        BTW, the subject of my letters was actually regarding the status of ex-SO freeloaders and how they are treated virtually like SPs. I was persistent and my last reply from him was pretty much intended to shut me down, plus it included an alter-is of an HCOPL about freeloaders. I pretty much realized it was a lost cause at that point.

      • Moving Forward, Perhaps you ought to send that letter to me and we’ll publish it on Scientology-cult if you think it would shed light.

        The situation with GL — and all Int base execs — they are totally off post, except for maybe answering mail from the public since it’s all a big “secret.” On the base, none of them are allowed to use their post titles… it’s literally a mob in a room working on the targets necessary for them to “get out of Confusion” or to “handle their SP declares.”

        They aren’t just on post, doing normal post functions. It’s a group (mob) doing random orders assigned by a mad man who’s authority is not questioned if you want to have ANY hope of getting through your “handling” in the next five years.

        If they’ve already been off post, in lower conditions and declared for nearly 10 years now, and they haven’t even stood up to DM, and they were to do that now??? They would not see the light of day for 10 more years they think. They’d be out of there, like Shelly Miscavige (who was a total bitch, herself) at some secret CST location under full time guard 24/7.

        Here is the proof. If GL was really wearing LRH’s hat as the Executive Director of Scientology International… would he be participating in these kinds of “hole” activities i.e., a gang-bang group “seances” to force compliance and nutty confessions out of people?

      • Moving Forward

        Thanks Thoughtful (Steve),

        I have read about what has been happening with the Int Base execs and it’s not even that I don’t believe it, it’s just so hard to wrap my head around.

        When I was in the SO there was pretty regular comm coming from WDC and Exec Strata levels, so I have to wonder what effect this is having on ILO and CLO levels. They have to have noticed that no one is holding these important posts.

        I’ve also observed that a TON of people have left the SO even at the lower echelons, not just the Int Base. I have a hard time fathoming what it is like there now (I was mainly at Pac, but did spend time at what was then FCB level).

        Also yes, the fact that such high-level people were sent to harass Mike in this bizarre manner really does show not only how off-post they are, but also the insanity ‘leaking out’ as Jeff said in his post.

        As for the letter, I’ll be happy to share it and the story associated with it if you feel it could help. I’ve never been more than a pretty minor player, though, and it’s not all that salacious — it was mainly the alter-is coming from ED Int directly that really hit me personally.

      • It makes me feel silly that I kept sending petitions to Ed Int and Int Justice Chief and actually expected a reply after my declare for leaving the SO. The Goons warned me that if I left that I would be declared but I couldn’t stay another year, it was so stifling. I haven’t tried to contact my daughter. I was going to after I left the country as I couldn’t be bothered with harrasment that I know the robots are so fond of. I want to talk to Mike Rinder before leaving. Mike, any chance of private contact without DM’s eyes?
        Kay

      • I personaly know about 200 people who have left the SO in the last 4 years from PAC alone.

    • Why was Guillaume Lesevre there you ask?

      Someone High Exec will have to take fall when it all goes down.

      Can’t you here the PR now, DM written statement ” Guillaume Lesevre was a loose canon we has to pull him off of ED post due to his constant overt actions, thanks to my action I was able to save SCN from his secret, hidden intentions and organizing unprovked attacks on former members.”

      Wake up Guillaume Lesevre you were so admired not so long ago. Stand up and speak out for SCN not DM before its gone too far.

  45. Geez, Mike – DM flew your brother all the way from here to there just for a parking-lot ambush?

    THAT says more about the Demented Midget than anything else I can imagine.

    And I’m glad you did get some chat in with Andrew and your daughter – hopefully the cognitive dissonance that creates will get them to see what’s really happening here.

    And best of all, no harm came to you from this – I’m still gobsmacked that people like Dave Bloomberg have dwindled so far into DM’s valence that they think this is a perfectly acceptable way to behave.

    It seems like every time I think the current regime couldn’t descend any further into insanity, DM manages to set the bar even lower.

    • Dave Flobberwormberg is as patsy as they get. He is a total yes man forever trying to hold onto 6th place in the “get ahead by seeing who can be the most brainless DM-bot in Miscavology” contest.

      • I was trying to remain silent but you said it right there. Bloomberg used to be a “friend”. Oh my, I really need to shut up right now and digest all this before I say something I regret!

        But Mike, if you ever need it up here, got your back.

      • Yes, Dave used to be a nice person — they all were. But after a few years of Reverse Scientology, they either go off the deep end and lose their senses, or they leave, get into a safe place and speak up. Like what we’re doing.

    • While it was a parking lot ambush — FIRST it had to be STALKING …

      How did 7 people just happen to arrive at this parking lot –

      By STALKING.

      There are stalking laws I’m sure in Florida —

      Perhaps just filing a complaint against them for stalking and how about a restraining order?

      Now that the cops have been called, you can legally file a restraining order without going to court etc.

      Just an alternative idea.

      WH

      • Seems like a good idea to me, WH. What they did was so egregious that I’m not convinced a legal action against them would not stick. Imagine the PR that would pin them with — being legally labelled “stalkers.”

  46. Mike,

    You were accosted by thugs. Plain and simple.

    Of course you remember the LRH tech on knowing the tech of something and using it, then you cannot become the adverse affect of it. I was once almost physically assaulted by a fellow who outweighed me by about 35 lbs and several inches in height. Luckily, I TR’d him into going away, but came close to probably looking for another body, if not looking for my teeth.

    Solution: I purchased a . 38 with applicable license.

    Now, if anyone ever approaches me in the same manner, I would issue a warning, and if they persisted, I would draw the weapon and point it at them. 99.99% of the time, that works, and they either evacuate their bowels or the area, whichever is easier at the time.

    You have a right to self defense. If you feel that your life is in danger, you can use force, even deadly force, to defend yourself.

    I know you would not want to draw pistols on your brother child, and I would not as well. However, in the future, it may not be them with simpletons from the church. It may be nastier types.

    I gaurantee if you have some firepower on you, and the next time those thugs try to keep you from entering your car or they physically touch you without your consent, intoduce them to your “litto’ frien’” and I guarantee you they will stay way, way back while you call the police and call in that you are making a citizens arrest and need an officer there to take custody of your prisoner(s).

    Mike, it works like a charm. You have the right to self defense. Use it.

    Once you get the reputation that you carry and are competent with that heat, you get much more respect. As they say, an armed society is a polite society. And around my State, well, people are just too damned polite for words.

    Centurion (packin’ heat with ARC)

    P.S. When it comes time for me to go public, I would love to see some of DM’s keystone cops try to stop me from getting in my car. Oh, that would make my day in ways only imaginable!

    • You are channeling a slippery slope.

      • Yea dittos on Cat Daddy above…

        I’m as second amendment as anyone, but….

        ( I own guns, but mostly as a solution to tin cans without enough holes…not interpersonal realtions)

      • Redneck Thetan

        Agreed, CD. Keep in mind that moles are probably keeping an eye on any legal documents going through, including gun permits. If they thought he was packing heat, I wouldn’t be shocked if they either tried to provoke him into using it or lying and saying that he did.

        However, pepper spray (depending on the laws in the area) is a very good idea. And I hope his house and car have security systems.

    • Slippery slope my a**! Pepper spray baby!!! With 7 people there, and 3 holding the door, it’s a no-brainer!!

    • Particularly in Florida where apparently you can waste anyone legally who looks at you the wrong way. The Sunshine State became the Trigger-happy State a few years ago. What a planet.

    • Friends, who are actually marksmen, have told me that it’s best not to own a gun “just to scare” someone. IF you point a gun, be prepared to use it.

      Since I have NO intention of ever using a gun on someone, I chose not to own one.

      Moreover — dying IS inevitable … everyone dies. IF someone were to murder me, he/she has (sadly) caused my inevitable death to arrive earlier.

      KILLING someone IS not inevitable in my life. And even if done in self-defense would leave a horrible pain/mark on my “soul” (IMHO)

      Just adding my two cents and something to perhaps think about.

      I do have a can of bear pepper spray on my bedside table, however. Living alone in the middle of a forest is occasionally creepy :)

      WH

      • @windhorse: You are so right in that. I did a 4 year spell in the military, and a firearm is not a scare toy. There are 3 golden rules:

        1. Never point a weapon (even unloaded) at something you do not intend to shoot.
        2. If you draw a weapon, use it.
        3. If you use it, shoot to kill.

        Cops have slightly different rules, especially #2. For the rest of us, there are very few cases where a firearm is indicated.

    • Centurion,

      I take your comments in the spirit (if not the letter) in which they were written.

      The most powerful weapon to respond to the wild animal reactions of MWH phenomena isnt a gun or pepper spray — it is pulling the withhold. And if the person isnt willing to come clean, then exposing them for the world to see (no longer a missed withhold).

      In that game, I am extremely well armed.

      Mike

      • Mike,

        re: you being extremely well armed exposing the W/Hs —> quod erat demonstrandum (q.e.d.)
        Tip my hat!
        Fidelio

      • Mike, sounds like an adrenaline rush to me. How exciting. Getting to practice TRO bullbait to the extreme! Fun!
        And you’re sooooo right about the handgun. Statistics indicate a 15% hit ratio in handgun confrontations. More danger to innocent bystanders than your target, especially because bullets can travel long distances and hurt or kill someone blocks away. Even if you hit your target, depending on your choice of round, the bullet can pass through a body and harm an innocent. Plus the danger of ricochets.

        Another factor to consider: if you pull a gun, anyone with any street sense would recognize that it was merely a scare tactic rather than an actual threat. If one of the PIs is there and happens to be big enough and mean enough he could take the gun away and have justification to “defend himself” by administering a good pistol whipping. No aspersion on your manhood, just I doubt that you’ve spent a lot of time training for this stuff.

        And as for MWH’s, a person has to believe that what they are doing is wrong for this. For a creep like Jenny, not having forced you into submission would more likely be an overt in her estimation. An overt of omission. She’s right. You’re wrong. How in the hell could hurting you be an overt? Not hurting you is an overt.

        There are probably a lot of volunteers who would be willing to follow you around Florida with a video camera at a distance and record the Keystone’s next foray into the Land Of Caving Rinder In. You can set them up–both DM bots and volunteers. A little spy thriller.

        Or you can make them think that they have been set up in this manner which will really mess with their plans. How to handle the shadows?

        Much love,

        Michael

      • Mike,

        Thank you for taking the time to reply to my comment.

        I was going to reply to some of the comments on my post offered by others on this board, but it would be way off topic to start a “should I or shoudn’t I carry heat” discussion. It’s a personal choice, and I respect yours.

        I agree that your handling of the tactics employed by DM do require application of tech for exposing and pulling MWH’s, and that is distinctly apart from carrying to protect ones life when confronted with bodily harm.

        I know you are armed with tech to handle the former, and I hope you are never faced with not having the means to prevent the later, should it ever occur.

        Your friend….

        Centurion

        cc: Ted Nugent (just kidding)

  47. DM is very afraid of BBC, because it will shine light on his behavior. He wants to stop you, and is Type 3. I am so glad that by the hands of God you were talking with BBC, and they have it on tape.
    Sad it is not on video. Even briefly, you spoke with your brother and daugher. This is a blessing.

    • Well all that “You are going to die” stuff’ does qualify as a death threat.

      They’d do well to back off, really.

      Strange how much Waco has been in the news lately too though.

  48. Wow, this is so cracy. It is only a matter of time before DM injures or kills someone for real. This will probably be an act to prove himself right till the end.

    • Exilo, Through out-tech, the mis-application of Ethics and outright suppression I’m sure the number of dead is already in the dozens if not the 100s. – Steve

      • Steve, Thanks for all your current insights and the work you did earlier to make the subject known. I would say you have quite a production record.
        Re the subject of your last, I told a friend that the service that was being delivered was spiritual abuse. In the NOTS unit, of all places. Sec checking and overruns until you had no space. People were literally in physical pain, by their originations, getting through their eligibility programs. I suppose the worst condemanation for dm would be to be him- a great quote I read once is “Your character is your fate”. May his fate be accordingly, but behind bars.

      • Your character is your fate

        Wow! I’ve learned something from “Movin’ on up . . . “. Oedipus Rex and all that!! Brilliant quote, thanks very much.

  49. Wow. Worried much DM?

    That Jenny was still there as the point man definitely indicates the midget thinks she did a good job on CNN. It is amazing how convoluted one’s view is when under their influence. I’m sure we would have thought she did a good job years ago too. Now she just looked like a crazy woman.

    I look forward to seeing what the BBC does with that recording.

  50. martyrathbun09

    For those of you who know Mike Rinder like I do, this report is ample evidence of pure, unadulterated evil psychosis on DM’s part. First, the mafia wouldn’t try a seven on one assault in broad daylight. Second, consider the team he assembled: the “ED INT”, the AVC Aide Sue “David Miscavige IS Scientology” Wilhere, his pet pitbull (lipstick and all – Jenny), and muscle (Bloomberg has about an 80 IQ, but is six foot five and a former bare knuckler boxer), plus three family members who signed the most vicious disconnect letters imaginable, and untold numbers of PIs. This nearly a year after this sick f…. tried a five on one on Mike in Denver. And after a year of continuous PI coverage on Mike the likes of which I’ve never seen before. Recognize also, that with that personnel mix and the nature of the mission that only one person is permitted to make such moves, and believe me he micromanages them down to scripting every word by every participant. Now, Einstein defined insanity as continuing to try the same thing over and over expecting a different result. We’re talking Ne plus ultra here. A little Neitsche applies: “what doesn’t kill me makes me stronger.” Review what we have disclosed Mike went through in the Church. Consider what I have said above. To steal a phrase from Heber, DM, you have created the anvil that will break all your hammers.

    • Marty…with all due respect, based on what Mike experienced, do you honestly still think DM might become homicidal and capable of Koresh and Jonestown type of acts, merely based on the these actions of his attack-dog minions (excluding Andrew and Taryn) doing his bidding?

      In your lead-up post, “Tonight’s Report”, the obvious conclusion we’d be left with was after reading this report, that yes DM would be. That’s still quite an intense and alarming warning.

      Can you please comment further to clarify? Because to me, though crazy and full of fear and force, what happened appears more to be a botched and poorly executed silly Op to publicly humiliate and intimidate a misdiagnosed SP.

      • martyrathbun09

        See my further comment. See the full SP Times interviews. Read the entirety of this blog. That he pulls this stunt in light of what has so far been exposed, then YES, I decidedly state this is very alarming evidence for where DM is headed. And the concerns that orginally led to my speaking out were well based. You are free to disagree.

        • martyrathbun09

          Oh, and of course what witnesses described happened after I left – some of which I hope you’ll see on the BBC; SP Times has apparently been shuddered into silence on the subject.

      • Marty, not necessarily disagreeing with you. You and Mike know the guy way more intimately than any observers here and would know his capacities for such behavior.

        I would however, be curious to know if Mike concurred with your stance? Thanks.

      • Marty,

        Yikes, I hope it’s not true that the SP Times has been silenced. After going as far as they did, I didn’t think any threats would stop them. Can you give us any more data?

      • Is this not crazy enough for you?

        This is not a good time to look the other way: If things are this crazy outside of a doctor’s office, what do you think is taking place at the Int base behind closed doors?

        I would not wait for the disaster to strike. Anyone who can influence the situation needs to act. I believe this.

        I hear you guys cheering, but I think it is time to save some lives and this is what we should be concerned about.

      • Psychotics do not improve on their own. Spousal abuse escalates and all too often leads to the death of the abused spouse, for example. Thrill Murderers become serial murderers. etc

        Violence escalates BECAUSE the mind of the violent person becomes more and more consumed and obsessive. The ONLY way to experience a sense of relief (momentarily) from the claustrophobia of the violent mind is to

        BE MORE VIOLENT … ahhh relief from that pressure.

        And it builds up again and again.

        dm feeds and breathes on inflicting pain on others – in numerous ways, not all physical.

        My fear is that if violence resulting in deaths at Int occurs, scn will not recover.

        When was the last time someone wanted to recreate the “idyllic” compound of Jonestown or Waco — (previolence obviously)

        WH

      • Yes WH: Some time ago on this forum when we discussed Heber, someone claimed that DM has cooled down because of the attention. Anyone else who thinks DM is cooling down? That he is starting to behave?

        You americans, this is going on in your land. Would you please do what you can to keep people at Int from getting hurt. They are at risk. Do it for those inside and do it for LRH.

        I too believe it is building up, the violence.

    • Moving Forward

      This also reminds me of something I read in Dianetics 55 last night:

      “Actually, one is done wrong by the weaklings of this world, not the strong men. One does not have to enslave and control those by force whose conduct he does not fear. When you find an individual who is bent entirely upon a course of the arduous control of the motions of others, you are looking at an individual who is afraid. By their fear you shall know them.”

  51. Mike, Marty, Chrissy, etc. If u decide you want to ditch a PI, I live in a gated community in CW that they would not be able to follow you into. You could come in and do a car switch. It would be awesome. Just a suggestion.

    • First,

      Thanks for the offer.

      I have no problem ditching PI’s, the church may be wasting a lot of money on them, but thhat doesnt mean they are any good!

      The point of PI’s is to intimidate, not accomplish any real objective when there is no lawsuit ongoing (in which case they may gather evidence). So, if you aren’t intimidated by them, why bother?

      I am not going to live my life worrying about whether there is a PI following me — sometimes for sheer amusement I ditch them and then get on their tails (drives them crazy). I have no intention of living at effect of them. I am doing nothing wrong annd have nothing to hide.

      But they are good fodder for the media…

      Mike

  52. Where is Snowwhite? I would like to hear what
    Snowwhite now has to say about her favorite dwarf, DM.

    • @Interested: It would be an impossible Target to pay David Miscavige enough Money in exchange for his superb Services to the Scientology Field Worldwide. RTC has the Trademarks, the Materials, and they are perfect now, exactly on Source, absolutely and total Theta, accurate Duplikation of LRH. We can`t thank him enough, and we like and love him for that, with deepest respect and affection. As long LRH isn`t back at Post, COB is the only Thetan able to lead a Religion like Scientology these days.

      Some of you are talking about Freedom sometimes, but Freedom without DISCIPLINE is impossible to get, because absolute Freedom is a Trap. And every time I see some of you natering about how bad he or she was treated on Post, the many Sec Checks they had to do in their time inside Scientology, in an Attempt to make themselves right, and church procedures wrong, I think how awesome it is! The E/O or MAA obviously spotted their personality long before they expressed their evil purposes openly, like they do now.

      The so called “Independents” are such a diminutive little group of crazy Barkers, and you know that. You must know you are not important, not for Scientologists, and, of course, not for our Leader. You don`t know how much I laughed reading your thoughts about who the Hell “Snowhite” is…keep guessing!

      • Snow White..

        Ha Ha Ha… I get it now… You are really an Independent and just being so totally “over-the-top” crazy just to get others to see exactly how demented those “inside” really are. That is just too funny…. Oops sorry I blew your cover. Just couldn’t help myself… It is just soooo damn clever!

        WW

      • Snow White

        Your inability to even get a vague concept of what is happening inside Scientology really has me worried. Perhaps you should ease back on blowing the “snow”. You have apparently done some serious damage to key areas of the brain.

      • “… accurate Duplikation of LRH …”

        With every word and transkription error now spelled perfektly.

      • Theo Sismanides

        Margaret already commented on it but it’s worthwhile to further comment on this

        DUPLIKATION of Snow White.

        Typos are human Snow White. We understand that. But your level of DupliKation sucks. So, we are just happy we don’t belong to that group anymore where DupliKation of LRH tech has become a TYPO all over the place contaminating people’s minds like you.

        You are more humble now, you have calmed down, but still Snow White, keep on studying and clearing up English words so that you can finally start DupliCating and not Dubbing in YOUR ideas and mental typos on us and on Scientology.

        You have apparently not DupliCated Scientology, much less grasped Scientology, which is in English and it comes from a free man.

        Not of the kind like some DupliKating morons around the world and their minions have made Greece the scape goat of Europe selling us all their expensive cars and industry while closing down all of our factories turning Greece into a tourist resort for Europe. Giving money to out-ethics politicians and corrupt governments and not demanding Greece builds up its own industry and finds its way in the new world of the European Union Financial Gangsters. LRH knew better of the secret agenda of gangsters, sorry… I meant to say bankers and loan givers. We know how the system works and it is based on you and others with such DupliKation level.

        This is the level of DupliKation fascist regimes have. And Greece never was and never will be fascistic.

        This whole fascistic agenda throughout the world is coming from people with such DupliKation level like your’s.

        I hope from now on you will DupliCate right. Or just DupliCate (if you can finally get a concept right).

        You just use symbols (words) to hypnotize us into your illusional (now) religion but we are not falling for that anymore. We are many now. Keep on laughing because soon you’ll be running in terror when D Day comes for C of M, and Der Fuhrer.

        As for who you are we don’t have to guess anymore. We know who you are… You show it to us everytime you come in here. I DupliKated that.

        Watch it now and Start DupliCating the Scene from now on for your own good. We might think twice about you when D Day comes since you were kind enough to grand us some beingness by being so close to us via this blog and made us right so many times by being so wrong in many aspects, starting from spelling and dupliKation of yours, not to mention the rest of your illusional theories (sorry to say it in this way but it’s true). You made us laugh many times so you have become our pet toy, people are asking for you here to come and play. That’s good on your part.

        And maybe you might wanna become that brave German officer who left that bomb in Der Fuhrer’s conference room and save the world from the tyrant. But noooo, I guess I am asking too much from you. OK, just study English for now and keep on being humble as you are lately and behave yourself here. We are not playing Snow White and the 7 dwarves here. D Day is coming!!!!

        Shut up and duplicate.

      • LOL!! Did he actually capitalize the word “Leader”?…..as in….. “God”?

      • Hi, Snow.

        A little something to consider (even though it comes from a crazy barker):

        You say, ” The E/O or MAA obviously spotted their personality long before they expressed their evil purposes openly, like they do now. ”

        Well, okay, that could be true in a case or two, in a normally functioning scene. In fact, you’d expect about 2.5% of a group to be SP, per PTS/SP tech. But if you’ve been following along on Marty’s blog and elsewhere, you’ve probably seen the datum that DM has declared all execs in “Int Management” suppressive. That’s 100%. Maybe it isn’t really EVERYBODY in that group who’s been declared, but I’d be willing to bet it’s very close. (Maybe someone who’s been there a little more recently than I could fill us in on that point.) Anyway, if you were to include Mr. High Priest DM’s few remaining worshipful minions in RTC as part of “management,” and figured out the percentage of that whole group who HAVEN’T been declared suppressive, I’d be very surprised if it didn’t come out to right around…2.5%. No joke.

        That might sound odd. Kinda backwards. It would fit right in, though: Just about everything going on in that sorry place is backwards, compared to Scientology philosophy and standard practice.

      • Snow White: congratulations on completing Key To Life. Seriously, well done. Your ability to communicate your “ideas” is now perfectly standard.

  53. Hi Mike,

    A few things strike me here:

    1. Definition of insanity; doing the same things over and over and expecting a different result.
    2. I always had the feeling after reading the Truth Rundown that you and Marty would make a great team and it is sure proving out to be true.
    3. If DM says that you and Marty were so “unimportant” to the organization, they sure are going to extreme lengths to “shut you up”.
    4. What is the likelyhood of the BBC actually using the recording? Is it legal for them to do so? I think that you telling them they were being recorded bodes well.
    5. Another LRH reference jumped to mind: “Make the penalties for non-compliance too gruesome to confront and then enforce them.” DM probably loves that one!!

    It seems that an insane SP can hang onto any LRH reference that seems to justify thier evil intentions. As LRH said in KSW : “a sort of blasphemy in itself.”

    Take care, and you do have lots of friends that are watching your back.

    ARC,
    Alex

    • mikes phone, public place, news worthy. peoples right to know and so on, and so forth.

      “What is the likelyhood of the BBC actually using the recording? Is it legal for them to do so? I think that you telling them they were being recorded bodes well.”

      • They don’t have a leg to stand on! John Sweeney was attempting to record MIKE with permission. He can’t possibly be responsible for background noise. PLUS the fact that they were told someone was recording… and they just got louder, deary me.

  54. Hey Marty, if you need for some reason any help with your E-Meter (battery failure or otherwise) I’m your man.

  55. It’s so sad seeing Dave Bloomberg and GL and Cathy being “hangers on” to Jinny who is an alpha bitch to end all alpha bitches.

    I don’t think DM will go to the extreme of acting out murder level violence.

    I think this attack on you was just the typical one, of ganging up, and trying to make you feel bad and stop your actions against the church.

    Religious leaders ganging up and engaging in street encounter attacks against former church leaders is just NOT smart.

    I’ve emailed all my scholar contacts to follow your writings here Mike.

    Some I’m sure will want to talk with you once your obligations to the BBC are fulfilled, and I think there are some writers and reporters who want to talk to you.

    The problem with you ex big cheezes, is that you generate daily continuing turmoil because the church is obligated to go after you and stop you from “suppressing” them.

    It’s the OSA checklist actions of stopping the upcoming anti Scientology media, is all.

    You guys are walking news stories as long as you keep speaking up. And you are like decoys pulling the most fanatical nutso Sea Org leadership people out to counter attack you.

    My suggestion in future confrontations, is invite them to blow! “I blew, you can too!”

    Ask them some brain wrenching questions like:

    “How can you guys deny DM beat people up?”

    “No one believes you guys are telling the truth and you guys down deep all know you have lied.”

    “DM’s only way out of this mess, is personally admit his part in this culture of violence, and make a public apology.”

    This last suggestion I made several years ago, and Wolfie Frank emailed me to say that things had somehow become less violent at Int, which maybe for a short time it may have.

    But people who’ve not gone public yet, they know the score, so since this violence doesn’t look like it’s stopped, I suggest another tactic.

    When all is said and done, DM will still be controlling the shots, and everyone at Int will still be bowing down to him.

    What I think it might take to get DM charged with battery, is for someone who is next beaten by DM to have the seed of insight planted in them that they CAN call the police and report DM’s beating of them, or they can call the police and report ANY of their superiors beating them.

    I think the idea has to be planted into their heads that they CAN call the police and make a criminal complaint.

    If you ex Int Base staff made a simple easily understood one page public statement, a prepared short statement, which said something along the lines of

    “NOTICE TO ALL INT BASE STAFF”

    “We the undersigned, (and list the whole group of ex Int Base staff with enough guts to put their names to this statement), we know that there have been hundreds of instances of physical violence committed by all manner of Int Base staff for the last X number of years.

    “We are telling you that IF you want to report any NEW or recent instances of violence, we know you face instantly losing your whole Sea Org career, believe us, WE WILL help you out when you get thrown OUT of the Sea Org.”

    “Today, the Catholic church turns its offending priests over to the police.”

    “Likewise, we ex Int Base staff feel it is up to Int Base staff to report any instances of battery, and the beatings by DM and others over the decades, ARE battery.”

    “We will help you regain your life, if you choose to step up and call the police, call 911, next time you witness or receive a beating or battery. Look up “battery.””

    “We want the violence to stop!”

    “If you do to, then next time you see or recieve any violence at the Int Base, call 911, and report it to the police and make sure the police come to you. ”

    Then you have to add instructions on how to let the Int Base staffer to phone one of you guys, because whoever does this, will get railroaded out pretty quick.

    I have an 866-XSEAORG number which I can change the message on this number to include anyone’s phone number allowing Int Base staff to call for help on the spot. Right now it just has my phone number, and a cult help group at Venice Beach.

    I can change the message.

    I think to stop the violence is to help police prosecute the next instance of it.

    And to help that to happen, a public statement by a long list of you ex Int Base staffers, and get that statement circulated all over so it falls into some Int Base staffers’ hands, will put DM and the Int Base on notice that all it takes is one of them to have the guts to cast their fates to the police and to you guys to help them when they do the police report.

    Chuck

    • martyrathbun09

      Chuck, Wolfie Frank is a card carrying OSA agent. You’ve been fed propaganda directly from one of DM’s agents.

    • “I don’t think DM will go to the extreme of acting out murder level violence.”

      Chuck, maybe that’s the bad news, maybe he already has.

    • Hi Chuck,

      You were my Sup and a great help to me in the Flag ITO circa 81.

      Thanks

    • Moving Forward

      It’s a good message, but I think 2 other things really hold people back:

      1) You won’t be losing your own eternity if you do this and
      2) You won’t be destroying Scientology if you do this

      Most

    • Çhuck, you’ve got some good suggestions here except for the fact that some of these concepts you’re talking about go way over their heads. Things like telephones and 911 and battery. The truth is that those Amish people you see there with their buggies on the back roads in Pennsylvania are more clued in to the way the world operates than Int base staff. And I’m hardly exaggerating. It’s the most insular group
      this side of a home for the criminally insane.

      • Joe – I agree with you. That the “7″ would act like this proves to me they have lost all touch with real people and reality. Real people do not treat others that way. Unless they are stark staring mad or have tourettes. Pimps and drug dealers on the street are more civil. These poor souls have forgotten (or never knew) that such a thing as “social graces” even exists. Do I have to elaborate on the benefits of social graces? To you, no. To them, doesn’t matter, they won’t get it anyhow. Which just proves how far they’ve deviated from the purpose of their “church”. I can’t be too bitter though, knowing that their lives are going to be a thousand times more miserable after that fiasco. Wrath of Con.

        Still, I *wish* they would try a stunt like that where I live. Dare ya.

      • Joe,

        One of the scholars, one most hated and called a butt kissing apologist for Scientology, privately gave some of the best suggestions.

        You guys have POWER! You have real power.

        He suggested a press conference, and a press conference on the ground, at the Int Base.

        I knew, this was two years ago, that that was not possible, and this was around the time Marty and Mike were “out” and starting to speak up a little.

        Now, two years onewards, that strategy of a press conference, focus on 1 issue, the Int Base violence, a press conference held there in Riverside County, invite some local officials, news media.

        Believe me, that WOULD make it a news item, straight per press policy, etc, and I do believe focusing on the 1 issue, the violence, and include a few suggestions for how to get OVER this mindset barrier.

        I agree, and this battle of breaking down the Int Base mindset barrier, is not an overnight affair.

        But it is being done.

        4 years ago when I predicted Mike Rinder would someday talk with media, and I was hoping beyond hope that Marty and Steve Marlowe would surface and talk, that met with people thinking the same thing, that the mindset would not permit people to come out of the mindset.

        But people do come out of the mindset.

        And the outside community in Riverside county deserves to have you guys speak to them in neutral simple terms about what life is life at the Int Base.

        Let the locals know the truth at least.

        It’s their home too.

        Long range is the only way to keep thinking about all this.

        Scientology unfortunately has a long history of its leadership defecting, my opinion is that injustices and the burden of the predicaments of the high positions, is what leads to the defections.

        I would like to take the violence out of Int Base staffers’ lives.

        I advised on the demonstrators over a year ago shouting “Free Heber” and other ideas.

        And the scholar most considered an apologist suggested you guys do a Riverside county press conference, and focus on the violence.

        Why not just make a decision.

        This Sea Org day, all ex Int Base staff who’ve seen or been beaten by DM, rendevous at Hemet, for a press conference.

        And behind the scenes work out simple focused talks and the end product being somehow letting those at the Int Base know they have the option to CALL 911 when they are being beaten.

        And that once ousted, there are hundreds of ex Int Base staff who will help them restart their live, and the WON’T, obviously, lose their eternity. (It’s impossible to lose it anyways.)

        PS” When Wolfie Frank called or emailed me, it was back when I was only leaking the stories of the violence, even before anyone like Jeff Hawkins or Marc Headley came out with their names about those stories. Indeed Wolfie was just trying to get me from stop talking about the DM beatings that Jeff was telling privately, and others, were telling privately. It was a couple years time lag from all the violence news being spread as rumors on the internet until people came out with their names, and the St. Pete Times article was the culmination and dream come true. Now, how to get the news back to those inside the fences, that they CAN call the police and their lives won’t implode but rather their lives will be better, and they will be heroes!

      • Joe,

        Maureen Bolstad Smith made a number of excellent suggestions.

        a) A phone booth inside the fences, that CANNOT be removed, and people CANNOT be prevented from using.

        b) ensure there are doors that allow people on the inside of the fences to get out, WITHOUT having the guards “buzz” the electronic latch that unlocks the door. Instead make it so a person can let themselves OUT without any authorization.

        She has others.

        I think you guys should start a forum discussion of how to make life at the Int Base for real, long range more normal and less cult compound like.

        I don’t think the government is coming to the rescue.

        So ex members, those ex leaders, and all with important details, I think can help make life better for those stuck there.

        How about a Sea Org press conference, 2-3 day conference, let the locals and officials and media in Riverside County hear the stories from you own mouths. And provide them some solutions, like Maureen’s ideas above.

        And also, an 800 number, set up just for ex Int Base staff to call, put on posters nearby.

        Chuck

      • Chuck: “How about a Sea Org press conference, 2-3 day conference”….

        I would gladly contribute funds for plane fares M and M if you do this!

      • “I don’t think the government is coming to the rescue.”

        That may be a good thing, if Marty is right. As paranoid and evil as they both were, neither David Koresh nor Jim Jones would likely have killed their followers had the government not come to the rescue.

    • Chuck, 911 is great IF you can get to a phone. There are no phones at Int that do not go through Reception. You can’t just make a call that isn’t filtered. (Though, my ex-wife did call me about 2 weeks after I blew but that’s another story.)

      • Moving Forward

        I still can’t believe (meaning, I believe it, but it’s pretty mind-blowing) that staff at the Int Base couldn’t make personal calls that weren’t monitored. That’s just such insanity.

        Another problem with the message of calling 911 is that many would probably think they would be doing irreparable harm to Scientology if they did, that mentality is just deeply ingrained. If more realized that it’s really the other way around — that DM and his minions are the ones who are destroying Scientology and that the ‘ends’ don’t justify the means (and that the ‘ends’ are a big fat lie, Scientology isn’t expanding under DM’s rule), the tide would turn, as it seems to be doing now.

  56. Titus Andronicus

    Yes, “inurement” is right on the money, Mike. (Ah, no pun intended.)

    I’ve been harping on this exact same thing for months to anyone who’ll listen: persons of influence within a non-profit entity involved in private inurement.

    Anyone wishing an understanding of private inurement from the non-profit lexicon, please see the link below. The information therein is enlightening, particularly with respect to the tax-exempt status given CofS were IRS ever to look into and assert the existence of private inurement in the church.

    http://www.boardsource.org/Knowledge.asp?ID=3.165

    • I’m pretty sure Mike meant “inurnment” (as it was spelled) which means “to put in an urn” or “bury” — which is exactly what DM is doing to Scientology.

      • Unfortunately, I did mean inurement. I am just an incompetent typist! Yes, DM IS burying things, but inurement is what is going to bury him.

      • Thanks all for clearing this up. I had a big MU on what Mike was talking about.

        This is not only more specific, it’s legally more damning.

    • Titus Andronicus

      Knowledge is a formidable weapon, and though IRS regulations on ‘inurement’ – or, as it is commonly referred to in the US not-for-profit (NFP) world, ‘private inurement’ – is not the stuff of page-turner thrillers (one will not likely encounter Jason Bourne opening up a can of whoop-ass on a private inurer within a NFP organization), it is still valid that an engaged and interested person have a understanding of it, particularly given “the scene”, as it were.

      Private inurement is not common to most folks unless they deal with NFP entities in the capacity of legal counsel, auditing the financials thereof, etc.

      Most Americans know that IRS allows for federal tax exemption if an entity is “organized and operated exclusively” for religious, educational, or charitable purposes. However, the exemption is further conditioned on the organization such that the income of it cannot inure to the benefit of any individual.

      Any unjust enrichment to an individual may constitute inurement.

      When looking at private inurement, compensation paid out to an individual is not limited to salary, bonuses and benefits. Other tangibles are also taken into consideration.

      To cross the IRS on this is to put the charitable or religious organization’s tax-exempt status in harm’s way; and that’s putting it mildly. One of the most important things to know about the private inurement rule is that it lacks de minimis restrictions – if an organization is found by IRS as having violated the rule, it faces the ultimate penalty of revocation of tax-exempt status.

      Religious organizations have an easier time with this, presently, as they are not required to file Form 990 with IRS as are non-religious yet charitable NFP organizations. Two years ago, IRS released a new, enhanced Form 990. One of the features of the return is the disclosure of employees, officers and board members who are highly compensated by the NFP entity, with a view to teasing up instances of private inurement.

      CofM can perhaps hide for some time without getting caught at private inurement, if it is engaged in this practice, since the church is not required to file Form 990, post “IRS Big Win”, circa 1994. However, I suppose if enough noise is made about it, perhaps one day CofM will blip on the inurement radar of the US Treasury and the look-see might then begin.

      • Thanks for the education on the NFP issue, Titus.

        When you said, “To cross the IRS on this is to put the charitable or religious organization’s tax-exempt status in harm’s way”, they first have to decide to look into the books for violations of DM’s private inurement. My thought on reading this is as long as more money is being generated from payments of parishioner’s taxes (enforced by a CofM directive which says “no bridge if you don’t pay”) than what DM is taking out of the church coffers, no looking will be done by any taxing authorities. There is, or was at least when the agreement was made, even a post created in OSA called the “Tax Compliance Officer” which oversaw this.

        It’s a cash cow machine requiring no outlay of expense to oversee by the IRS. So why would they even consider scrutiny of DM’s lavish lifestyle and holdings, AKA private inurement?

        Here’s a bit of what Marc Headley recalls might fall under this category, from a post he made 9/2009:
        http://tinyurl.com/2vl9jqk

      • Titus Andronicus

        Mickey,

        I have clicked ‘reply’ to my own but seek to ack you and comm comm you — no other way.

        Yes, you’re about “no looking will be done by taxing authorities”. T’was why I chucked in the point about no Form 990. Churhes do not file as not required and am sure CofM does not, either. I was service org SO staff and if memory serves, we never prepared or filed Form 990 with IRS (ran Dept 9 and Div III from Exec Sec level) .

        Tax Compliance, as you mentioned, had a lot more to do with US tax compliances concerning payroll taxes. They may obtain to property taxes where these are levied on hotel-type premises, but these were not the purview of the service org.

        Mat Pesch would likely know a lot about this area — his Div III track is more recent and longer than mine, albeit a different org.

        Thanks for Marc Headley’s link, moreover. That is certainly private inurement.

  57. Holy cow!
    Once again I will say it — these actions, as described by you in detail, by the “reckless 7″ are tantamount to DM’s exact level of franticness and desperateness.
    He is quite obviously near the edge.
    And for the goodness of all mankind, I hope he soon jumps…..

  58. PS: And kudos to you, Mike, for handling a little business with the BBC at the time. What a perfect coincedence!
    Shannon

  59. lowprofileforthemoment

    Mike Rinder,

    I tip my hat to you. Well done on being a true fighter for freedom!

    From HCOB, 15, Sept. 1981, “The Criminal Mind” here are a few of LRH’s statements. The caps you see below are right off the HCOB. (That being a Hubbard Communications Office Bulletin)

    From page 1.
    “THE CRIMINAL ACCUSES OTHERS OF THINGS WHICH HE IS HIMSELF DOING”.

    From page 2
    “THE CRIMINAL MIND RELENTLESSLY SEEKS TO DESTROY ANYONE IT IMAGINES MIGHT EXPOSE IT.”
    Pure LRH, at his finest, I might add!

    “INDIVIDUALS WITH CRIMIAL MINDS TEND TO BAND TOGETHER SINCE THE PRESENCE OF OTHER CRIMINALS ABOUT THEM TENDS TO PROVE THEIR OWN DISTORTED IDEAS OF MAN IN GENERAL.”
    Note: Mike’s brother still had ARC (affinity, reality and communication) and was still trying to reach. Good guy!

    From page 3!
    “THE CRIMIAL ONLY SEES OTHERS AS HE HIMSELF IS.”

    For those that understand SCN technology.
    “THE CRIMIAL IS NOT MUCH BENEFITITED BY THE GIVING OFF OF CURRENT WITHHOLDS AND IS NOT LIKELY TO REFORM BECAUSE OF THIS.”

    Page 4
    “THE CRIMINAL, NO MATTER WHAT HARM HE IS DOING TO OTHERS, IS ALSO SEEKING TO DESTROY HIMSELF. HE IS IN PROTEST AGAINST HIS OWN SURVIVAL.”

    L. RON HUBBARD
    Founder

    Hope this post helps anyone reading here to better understand true psychosis and what is really going on.
    Not only is DM deeply confirmed as an SP (suppressive person), I am now elevating him to the status of quintessential SP of the whole track and the being with the worst future that could possibly be imagined.

    Snow White…you have much to learn. You are on the WRONG team.
    To Mike, Marty and all the truly courageous.

    My deepest admiration.

    Penny Krieger, an independent
    AKA
    lowprofileforthemoment

    • OMGGGGG — Penny Krieger (no longer lowprofileforthemoment) — we knew each other in the ole’ CC days — you have a sister as well, right?

      GREAT to see you — I’m still only WH at the moment — but soon, I hope more open.

      Love,
      WH

      • Thanks WH! I thought her name sounded familiar. So, it was from back then (early 70s).

        I guess this was your debut as an Indie Penny! Can we expect the pic and story on Marty’s site soon? :-)

    • Penny, You just joined the Indie 500! Looking forward to posting a glorious resignation letter…

    • Welcome to the thin red line Penny, it’s fun!

  60. snowwhite where are you????

    • I will reply for Snowhite.
      All you SP’s need to get off your overts and pay for sec checks before you die form your overts.

      You all is cowrds. DM is a true hero to Scientology and if you were not so degraded you would be seeing these things through yuor Genious OT48 minds!!

      LOL!!
      Alex

    • “snowhite where are you???”

      In Confusion it seems (can see no difference between LRH Scn and DM Scn).

      WWW (Wind Walker’s Wife)

  61. Dm send Mike ‘s family to the ambush knowing that Mike was not going to press charges against his family.

  62. Mike, your stunning report that has undoubtedly sent shockwaves through RTC. Question: Is DM in Roy Black territory yet?

  63. ANOTHER EX FSO

    ABSOLUTELY AMAZING, HOW DOWN THE SCALE THEY ARE , AND AT THAT POINT THE DIRECTION IS GOING MORE DOWN.. I CAN’T WAIT TO SEE THE BBC NEWS. LET US KNOW WHEN. AND MIKE AND MARTY PLEASE BE CAREFUL L HE IS INSANE AND BY GETTING HIS WH MISSED IS GOING TO GET WORSE, FOR THE OTHERS IT DOESN’T SURPRISE ME I HAVE SEE THEM THAT WAY..

  64. Don’t forget that these people act under pressure. If they don’t do what DM tells them they’re out. Wow. DM seems to be a pretty insane dude.

    What about Freedom of speech? What happened to “What’s true for you is true for you?”

    Great that all of this is coming out through the Internet. Spread the word to the entire Scientology community so that everybody can see for themselves what an ego-power-maniac non-scientologist DM really is.

    The Church of Scientology is clearly being destroyed by the scientologists inside the church. The real SPs out there really don’t have to do anything.

    • Hubbardianen, You posed the question, “What happened to ‘What’s true for you is true for you.’ ”

      Just so you know I’m not attempting to answer your question. And, it seemed sort of rhetorical anyway but since it came up I would like to comment on the concept of “what’s true for you is true for you” as it relates to my experience with the CoS.

      For me, the expression of that concept was key in my being able to discern CoS as being different from any of the organized religion (via personal experiences in numerous Christian churches) I had experienced prior to crossing paths with the CoS. However, what I found to be the case is that one’s freedom to exercise “what is true for you is true for you”, was only allowed for a short period of time as one was entering into Scn. For as soon as one enters the Academy they’re informed that it is not acceptable to be “open minded” while being a practicing scientologist. And what is also quickly learned is that in any situation where “what is true for you is true for you” runs contrary to the materials being studied, then such an occurence was always considered to be the effect of studying past and MU, false data or enemy line. In other words, your truth was rarely recognized as being your truth. Odd to me know, but even with this ongoing suppression of being able to have my own truth, I continued to believe that I had the freedom to do so. Very strange.

      Currently, I now metaphorically view the concept of “what is true for you is true for you” as being the sharp end of the ring that gets inserted into the tip of the Bull’s nose. Once it’s there, the big ole onery self-determined bull can be easily led around. All that is needed is for someone to grab hold of the ring and pull. The bull will follow.

      My apologies for the sidetrack but your question, although obviously not intended to do so, prompted my mini-gush.

      • Monte

        Just a comment on your post. On reading your post I was struck by the obvious indication that you have continued to hold on to “what is true for you”. Well done! Those who misuse it, or misunderstand it, are the losers in this.

    • And I believe that culture has to be changed. It will never work because people will still think and believe what they want.

  65. I think the one thing I would say calmly over and over again to someone screaming at me as you described is just: “In the days ahead, just reflect on how you are behaving now. Is this Scientology? Is this what Scientology has made you? Is this what you joined Scientology to become?”

    One of the most powerful things is to simply hold up a mirror to such bad behavior. The thing is, Mike, I get the sense your brother and daughter may at least be thinking hard about those very topics right now.

    • brendon, when you’re in the SO (or staff for that matter) … there is no “time to reflect”. It’s a constant condition of “emergency”.

  66. Mike, wow, what a story. Wish you well in re-uniting with your family. I admire your cojones.

  67. The Universe must be on your side for that ambush to have been during your BBC interview. Incredible.

    Maybe start carrying one of those flip cams just in case.

  68. Hi Mike!

    I applaud your coolness. This inciden and your report of it tremendously raised people’s ARC for you and truly shows the entheta perpetrated by DM and his minions.

    This event resulted in complete irony. These 7 PTSes attack you alone but whilst you have BBC recording you over the phone. Then the police come as a result of a Doctor’s call for help to get these thugs handled. Talk about out-PR for them – Holy Shore Flap, Batman.

    Smile and be happy.

    Mike Lemeron

  69. Hello everyone, you may want to do some outflow to Wolfie Frank who has a lot of “Friends” in the following address: http://www.facebook.com/?ref=home#!/wolfi.frank.

    So they are really know what is going on with the Church of DM

  70. Hi Mike,

    Sorry that you had to confront that scene, and I am sad for you that Andrew and your daughter were involved. It was at least an opportunity to show THEM that YOU weren’t the raving mad lunatic SP.

    I had secretly hoped that Andrew was under the radar, only playing along to protect his own kids ( Steph at INT and James on staff and also your kids. )

    Though I always thought, that this would be rather cowardly, as he is such an OL in Melb and many other OT’s down there, who are his friends, have their kids in the SO – like the Catts. And all his friends are the wealthy upstats who would be getting hit up for Ideal Org donations , Basics packages etc.

    The news that you had left the SO was the start of my journey to investigate the C of S. At that time, Simon Neil told me that DM personally briefed Andrew when you left the SO . So I rang Andrew – he told me that you did not blow, but rather after 35 years on such a high stress post you were experiencing body problems and you had left for medical reasons ( having been on staff I knew that was just BS ) .

    I did not push him further – thinking he had to play his cards close to his chest. I am finding it hard to believe that he has been such a coward and so easily influenced – just not the Andrew I thought I knew.

    I have been concerned about your mum, I know that the thought of you “being an SP” would weigh on her. She told me the story of your 18th birthday with such pride.

    If you need anything let me know.

    ML Vick

    • Vickey:

      Your wrote;”I had secretly hoped that Andrew was under the radar and only playing along to protect his own kids.”

      I think this is exactly what Andrew is doing. There are MANY of us who’s children are in the SO. We are trying to keep a line to them and we know it will be cut unless we tread very lightly.

      However don’t under-estimate what can still be achieved from that position. Who really knows the effects Andrew is creating while giving the appearance of being with the Cof S program?

      Imagine hundreds and maybe even thousands of still “in-good-standing” SCNs with eyes and ears on the inside of the CofS. It is a covert op without even intending to be one.

      There is some level of organizational awareness of this fact as in recent months FSO staff have been treading more lightly on public that don’t toe the line.

      However, based on Mike’s experience I can see the kinder, gentler CofS being proffered recently is mere window dressing.

    • No, no, no. Vicky, you’ve got it all wrong. Mike didn’t leave for stress and medical reasons.

      He was kicked out, a bat hat…didn’t you watch CNN?

    • Vicky,

      Thanks for the information. I had not heard this story about thhe briefing DM gave Andrew before.

      The stories shift as time wears on. Whatever is convenient and calculated to keep people on his side. His current story is that I was an incompetent, criminal, lying traitor and that he removed me from all positions of authority in 2002. This has been said a hundred times now, is told to the media and covered in every DA pack that OSA shows people.

      Interesting if anyone actually looked instead of listened, they would have seen me as the International Church spokesman until I walked out in 2007, they would have seen me on the Board of CSI until I walked out in 2007 and they would have figured out that DM, in violation of all corporate documents presented to the IRS removed every single person in International Management for “crimes” against him (which is why ot this day you still see Guillaume Lesevre and others at events presented as “from International Management” not identified with any post title).

      I think there are a LOT of people who continue to toe the line for fear of losing their family, friends or livelihood. The way disconnection is practiced in the C of M is a complete perversion of Scientology. It is used to control people rather than set them free. But I do understand that taking the leap into the unknown and deciding to put your family, friends and job in the hands of the psychosis that passes itself off as the Church of Scientology these days is not an easy choice.

      Thanks for your support.

      Mike

      • Mike, you can prove DM is lying about having removed you in 2002.

        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dhZ-kY50J50

      • Vicky,

        Just a further note as you commented on my mother. Obviously it is a sorry state of affairs as I know the sort of things she has been told about me. It was the hardest part of deciding to come out and speak publicly, when I was originally contacted by the SP Times I told them I would not be interviewed by them for that very reason. But, it became obvious to me shortly thereafter that the relationship with my family was something the Church would try to use to silence me (and still are obviously) and that I consider to be unconscionable. While it is hard for my family (I know Andrew and Pat and the others now have the stigma of my name, and my mother is not really in any position to do anything independent due to her age) I cannot see something so wrong and do nothing because it is painful for me personally. I am in a position where I can do something about it and save a lot of pain for others in the future. I am no martyr, but I do know horrible injustice and abuse of power when I see it and I am just not the type to stand back and do nothing. I fought for 30 years for the right of all Scientologist to freely practice their religion, I am not going to sit back and watch a madman destroy from within without doing something about it.

        I understand you are doing plenty yourself to help in this effort. I am sure it is not without pain for you either.

        Best wishes,
        Mike

      • And the copyrright on that clip is nullified by the very fact DM lied.

  71. I’m speechless, don’t know what to say….hard to confront…..
    Thanks to Mike and Marty for confronting the problem and telling the truth and fighting for our dreams and hopes.
    They could go to Bulgravia with millions in their pocket.
    No, they don’t and stay integer.
    Mike and Marty take care. This is just the beginning.

  72. nonscientologist

    Hi,

    For the nonscientologists out there, please explain what a tone 40 command is.

    Secondly, if you want to know why the present church corporation cannot be reformed just look at Jenny’s actions. If DM were to disappear tomarrow, I would put money on her, or a similarly, vicious, ruthless person taking over in his place.

    now back to regularly scheduled programming.

    • Dear Non_Scientologist,

      I just googled Tone 40 command and rapidly found a decent reference for a definition for you:

      http://carolineletkeman.org/sp/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=953&Itemid=165

    • It’s supposed to mean “serenity of beingness” — the top of Scientology’s emotional tone scale. It has been perverted in DM’s “church” to mean “screaming at the top of your lungs at someone to get them to do something” — much closer to the more debase “anger” or Tones 1.5 – 2.o on the tone scale.

    • nonscientologist, Margaret’s reply is spot on. But another way one can look at Tone 40 is to look at “the force” as used in the Star Wars movies/story. If you recall back to whenever a character in the Star Wars saga used “the force” it was never done with FORCE. Instead, as depicted in the movies, using “the force” was done with an extremely light touch. Ironically, “the force” because it IS the state of serenity of beingness is senior to FORCE . But not only senior to FORCE but also senior to the illusion of matter, energy, space and time. Thus when one uses “the force” or a Tone 40 command (same thing), the illusion complies. Obviously, from all the acccounts of DM that have been so thoroughly made by so many people…DM has replaced “the force” with good ole solid physical universe illusion FORCE and BRUTALITY. Certainly, way, way, way, down scale from serenity of beingness. And using FORCE just doesn’t get the same results as using “the force.”

    • Hi nonscientologist
      Here’s a link for checking out the tonescale.
      http://www.independentscn.zzl.org/tonescale.html

      • A Tone 40 command would be one delivered with “intention without reservation or limit”. Tone 40 commands can be used in auditing or in life. They have NOTHING to do with physical force or violence.

    • nonscientologist — I wanted to comment on the second half of your post about the church not being able to reform because the likes of Jenny would just take over.

      I have to say that having been in the SO myself, I don’t believe this is the case. Most of the people in the SO are *not* like Jenny and most would de-PTS if they were able to realize he was an SP and could then see his perversions of Scientology, which could then be corrected. Not that it would happen overnight or be easy and it would certainly take some time to purge the off-Source operating basis the SO has sunk down to. But most SO members are actually wonderful people and they are one of the reasons I had a hard time saying anything bad about the SO.

      It’s hard to understand if you weren’t there and it’s also probably hard to understand if you’ve never personally experienced life-changing wins through Scientology. I think this is one reason why sometimes there can be a ridge between non-Scn critics and Scn critics.

  73. Mike,
    State-of-the-art confront of evil. True to yourself as usual. VVWD ! Quite OT indeed. – “Where’s two of them?” – LRH

    { I am surprised DM didn’t send Jeff Porter along with them }

    Very unfortunate that Cathy is still slavishly robotized under the spell of DM et-all. She was like that under Marc Yager as well. “Per what FO?…” She used to be so LRH-Standard. Quite the OT too. It’s unreal what happened to her. I wish she’d come to her senses. Your children WILL.

    * As mentioned previously, you are DEFINITELY getting LOTS of TA on this cycle. Please continue ! You are playing that game well. You have all our support.

  74. Lo Profile; I don’t see DM as the quintessential SP, I see him as part robot, part SP. He’s one of those inbetweens, man they are annoying because you really can’t even admire their evil, it’s too mundane.

    But when we see the SP’s that somehow overtook the entire COS then that’s going to be a big day. When that happens, then we’ll know for sure that things are ready to turn toward the better. And when sanity starts to overtake this planet, the EP of the truth rundown will become apparent.

    We’re in the thick of the TA now, but I get the feeling it’s gonna be worth it.
    That’s how I am seeing it tonight anyway.

    • Victoria, I agree. I also do not see DM as the quintessential SP. Personally I see DM as being a Solton Grist (character in LRH’s Mission Earth ten volume satire) with the actual SP being off planet.

      Was writing Battlefield Earth and Mission Earth just entertainment and pleasure for “Ron the writer” to engage himself in or were these stories more than they were promoted to be? Personally speaking, with the turn of each new day the world I am in resembles more and more what would be a blend of the world depicted in both BE and ME.

      I wonder…is there a “Davinci code” scenario in play here?

      • Interesting! I’ve had similar ideas. BE and ME seem like hat write ups to me..how to handle the invasion when it occurs, etc. liked your tone 40 explanation too!

      • Theo Sismanides

        Victoria, Monte, beebercat

        I agree on that. The world is changing and become more of a Mission Earth type of thing. I want to read Mission Earth in a new unit of time.

        It’s interesting to open a discussion on these 2 books.

        Definitely there is a lot of hatting in there!

  75. Hope you’re chillin a bit after such a whacked scene! Shit!
    Mike, your brother will probably handle your daughter, is my guess and hope.
    When you haven’t been in the SO, something like what he witnessed is quite a Severe Reality Adjustment ~ like no other. I can imagine his universe has been spinning and readjusting since.
    ~Sending Theta Hugs Your Way~

  76. Wow, with this much of the crazy leaking out, you know it’s a gibbering nuthouse on the inside.

    Seven on one? With PI backup? That’s what I call a bunch of sniveling cowards. And the biggest coward of all wasn’t there – he was hiding.

  77. Theo Sismanides

    Mike I am sure everybody here is grateful for your persistence to keep on Looking into the church and you keeping exposing (even if by “accident” this time) the madness they live in.

    As a matter of fact the actual meltdown of Miscavige (he is the actual Ridge on the Bridge and in Scientology) will come by people like you with enough admiration power to keep on looking.

    All they tried to do is stop you from Looking. And we all keep looking now. We ain’t stopping. We now have “looked” inside the Int Base thanks to you guys and have pervaded their inner spaces and have that inner sight now. We know now what is happening there. More and more people will know because we and you keep looking. The whole world is gonna know because we can get them to look now.

    What DM doesn’t understand is that he is exposed and when exposed one better not handle things with force, PR is needed and probably some redemption on his part.

    Since he is way out of touch with the 4th dynamic and Man actually, he cannot have any affinity for anything or anyone unless he/she has power and money or becomes his laborer or unconditioned supporter.

    He is one greedy animal for money and power. He has no manners and no feelings except when money and power is involved. He is not a social being so this is going to be his fall because he has no culture and cannot behave in a civilized manner in a society. His ego is such that he cannot alter his ways and admit one thing wrong much less repent.

    Actually he is caving in like Hitler did when the allies came over. And the allies Mike are here now and we have united. I don’t know if we have had our D Day yet but I think it’s approaching.

    Meanwhile I would say you should report the incident to the police and ask for whatever allegiance from them.

  78. Theo Sismanides

    Probably I should have written “unconditional supporter”.

  79. So Ms. Snow White, what do you think now?
    You are the worst plant on the planet, and you are snorting too much of that Snow White powder stuff.

    Please, go to the hole for a 24 hour period and SEE WHAT IT IS LIKE FOR YOURSELF.

    Mike Rinder, having been in a similar (much less mind you position) many years ago, I respect you a lot. Keep the faith.

  80. Wow Mike,

    That was really OT on your part. Please continue to hold your position.

    We need you.

  81. I do not know why I am shocked but I am!! Doesn’t he know that his method of handling people is despised out here in the real world!!

    I believe that the sole purpose for sending those people was to get you upset enough that you might hit one of them. This way dave could label you as a person that hits woman.

    Got to give you props on self control. I would have put my fist through jenny’s face. That girl is pure evil.

    wish the the best Mike and I can not wait to see the BBC series when it comes out.

    Mcgwire

  82. But here’s the thing now,

    DM, like the Godfather, stays out of sight when shit goes down, so he-well, not “he”, it’ll be his “spokesperson”, Tommy Boy-can always just say in the end that he never ordered any such thing, knew nothing about it, was too busy with all the expansion to get involved in such silly matters, and that those people will be duly punished for their insane mishandling of the situation, which, of course, was never ordered by the Godfather.
    He still remains above it all and the suckers following orders will be the ones to be made to look bad, while he and Tommy assert that he never had anything to do with any of that craziness.

    How do you really link him to anything when he always seems to remain “The Untouchable.”

    Where’s Elliot Ness when we need him? LOL!

    • 1984: We dont need no Elliot Ness. We got Marty!

    • crashing upwards

      “like the Godfather”, exactly. And like the godfather 2 scene he thought that flying in the “brother” from sicily, or in this case Australia, would handle the situation. Obviously real lfe does not follow the script. If DM thinks it does, he should watch Godfather 3 and take note of the ending when Michael Corleone has lost his family and sanity and sits all alone as a wasted shell. There is a sane solution, but I don’t see him cutting his losses and doing the right thing. His ending will be more like Al Pacino in Scarface. Nasty and messy. Pride will lead to his ultimate fall. As sure as night follows day. We are dealing with an artifical and false personality. The amount of self-work he would have to be willing to take on to free himself of his valences is considerable and unlikely to happen. When he hits bottom he will strike out, not seek grace or forgiveness.

  83. I am deeply worried about what is going on at the Int base. They did this out in public. So what are they doing behind closed doors? Please send law enforcement to that place now.

  84. Message to OSA who reads this site: Everyone who supports Dave (Pitbull) Miscarriage is in TREASON to LRH.

  85. Marty, you didn’t promise too much.
    and Mike, justice is on your side. What a unique moment to have that happen when you’re on the phone in an interview with the BBC.
    This is beyond…

  86. Hopefully you can catch the next one on film. That’d be an even bigger blow to these brainwashed zealots run by Willow.

    Well done for not giving in to low-IQ bantering, Mike.

  87. I have faced hauntingly similar attacks when I spoke out in the EU, with family members involved. It is bad enough when regular SO members do this, but when your own son comes up to you like that, it just breaks your heart. I met Miscavige once in Copenhagen, and I always suspected he is one of the sneakiest and most malicious people on this planet. Also quite smart, but predictable.

    But anyone who worked in PR in the Sea Org has been toughened to a point where these attacks are useless. Mike, the SO has made you very tough. Now it is like the government is trying to kill Bourne. Too late.

    Anyway, if you or Marty ever wish to come mainland Europe… my home is your home.

    • “Alsoo quite smart, but predictable” All dictators are predictable we just have a hard time believing they will all stoop to such levels as they do, Dictators after 50 aare even worse because it makes them face the reality of their own death.

      He has the smarts of a shark.

  88. Mike,
    Thanks for sharing and exposing how far the Church will go! I have been having nightmares about this exact tactic for days!!

    More than anything I am happy to hear you nor Christie or (lil Shane) were harmed!

    Here in the UK they have used SO members to “watch” us. I guess we aren’t priority enough to put PI’s in the budget.

    Sam and I joke about the outfit changes we have had because that’s about all there is to report. Chrissie is wearing pink wellies with mud all over them, Sam is wearing bright green wellies with a rip in the back, Shane has a brand new expensive pair of wellies.. hmmm…. hahaha very interesting and exciting stuff! Good to know these dedicated staff members are putting their time to good use!

    Classic that you were on the phone with Sweeney!

  89. glancing through those comments I found some disbeleive in the point that this situation could deteriorate into some Jonestown situation. No, not with Scn.!
    Looking at myself what is inside me so to speak, I have to admit, that I could be brought into a state of mind that I could do that. To be very honest to myself, my feelings, anger and unresolved psychosis on my track.
    Thus I think he can do that too.

  90. Another Anonymous

    Dear Mike Rinder!

    It has been suggested already, and would just like to repeat it: Get a video-camera and keep it with you at all time. Seriously. They are not even that expensive any more.

    Having BBC on the line this time was lucky, but relying on luck won’t pay off in the long run. It is even possible that the BBC only get garbeled noise from all of it. Against the CoS, a camcorder is far more effective than carrying a gun (and if it fall in wrong hands, you don’t have to worry someone will get killed). When DMs regime has fallen, you can always use the camera to tape family events.

    • AA: I have a video camera. Unfortunately, it was in the car. I chose to keep the phone call going with the BBC rather than try to pull out the video and get it rolling. Mike

      • lol, Yeah, somehow I can’t envision those people listening to you when you tell them, “wait here a minute while I go get my camera”.
        I know there are spy devices, cameras in pens and that sort of thing. Maybe that is something to consider for all of the visible “power independents”. It would be great to get this stuff on video.

      • Yes, I have a little keychain cam so it’s usually with me when I am out. It was cheap and cheerful.

  91. You’re being a little over dramatic, don’t you think? I mean, the treatment dished out to Rinder is no more insane that the treatment dished out to Bob Minton more than 20 years ago. As Marty pointed out, the Co$ just keeps trying to get a different result trying the same thing over and over again.

    For those interested in an idea of what Rinder might have been through, have a look at WBM’s site and have a rummage through the videos from the early days.

    • Um, you’re comparing the impact of someone like Bob Minton (a rich stooge that could barely spell Scientology) speaking out … to the impact of the former head of OSA and Int’l Church spokesman speaking out?

      BLiP, get a clue.

      • Actually, Margaret, BLiP is not comparing the impact of someone like Bob speaking out to Mike at all. He’s pointing out that Scientologists screaming at, and otherwise behaving strangely toward their critics/perceived enemies is nothing new. Have you never seen the video of the “Mad Picket?”

        There is a slightly “where the hell have you been?” feeling long-time critics get when they see the newer critics, now often former COM Scientologists, remarking how crazy the COM behaves. It’s old news to us, but we certainly appreciate that former members see it and speak up because, as I’ve also said, you folks have a lot more power to effectuate change than the non-member critics ever did.

        Though, oddly, right and wrong usually doesn’t depend on who spots it first.

      • Margaret, Mike is doing it 10 years later. I rather wish he had done it earlier.

      • That said Margaret, I am glad he is doing it know and takes the brunt of it.

        What is this anger you have with Bob Minton Margaret, Maybe you should adress that.

      • Margaret

        You raise in important point I hadn’t considered. Can you give me a clue, please, as to your thinking in relation to how some victims of Co$ are more or less worthy.

      • BLiP, you said: “I mean, the treatment dished out to Rinder is no more insane that the treatment dished out to Bob Minton …”

        Yes, the treatment of both is insane. And any Scientologist using judgement and acting rationally, would know this.

        However, I’m getting the impression that Mike had limited say in how to address/work-with/resolve conflicts with Scientology critics, while under the Miscavige dictatorship/regime.

        But I’ll let Mike continue to fill us in on the details…

    • BLiP — I get what you are trying to say, even if you’re saying it in a way that seems bent on creating upset for some reason.

      Yes, heavy handed tactics have been used by the Church for years in dealing with critics and protests and Mike and Marty have both acknowledged their part in it.

      However, what is so extreme about this one is who was involved and how it went down… 7 people, including the former ED Int and Mike’s own family, flown out specifically to yell and scream at him. That’s pretty crazy. Plus there’s the fact that it got recorded by the BBC.

      • Moving Forward

        It was not my intention to cause upset but merely to point out the obvious. I can’t quite bring myself to apologise if upset was the consequence.

        As referred to above, can I suggest that you check out the “Mad Picket” video which indicates a greater level of insanity than Rinder’s experience. I would also point out that this latest example is in accordance with the scientology SP doctrine. I have tech references in this regard if needed.

      • BLiP,

        That’s okay, I’ve seen enough perversions of Scientology technology already.

        The twisting and mis-using of ‘references’ in order to invalidate and suppress, all the while ignoring the volumes of tech to the contrary of these actions… That is exactly what is being fought against here.

      • That’s okay, I’ve seen enough perversions of Scientology technology already . . . That is exactly what is being fought against here.

        What date, or approximation thereof, would you accept as being the turning point when the application of the tech became perverse? I can cite documented examples similar to Rinder’s most recent experience that go back to the 1960′s.

      • Moving Forward

        BLiP,

        You excised an important point when you quoted me just there:

        “The twisting and mis-using of ‘references’ in order to invalidate and suppress, all the while ignoring the volumes of tech to the contrary of these actions…”

        I can see why you’d take this out. Based on your posts, it’s pretty clear that you are a critic of Scientology itself, not just abuses, to you would criticize any use of it. Well, I sincerely believe that Scientology isn’t for everyone and you certainly have the right to express your opinion.

        But if you want to know why you might have trouble getting Scientologists to engage you in much conversation, I’d have to say it’s the antagonistic way you come across. This is just my own observation, but a one reason Scientologists don’t always like talking with critics is that a number of them twist and pervert the tech to try to make it (and the Scientologst) wrong. Some don’t want to engage in these conversations because they are upsetting and some because they feel it is fruitless. I generally fall into the latter category, although sometimes I’m game for the conversation.

        That’s not to say that I won’t converse with anyone critical. I’ve had a fair share of discussions over the years with critics and and found that there are those who are genuinely concerned about abuses and are actually capable of being respectful of beliefs, even if they may disagree with them.

  92. This kind of behavior that Miscavige (and the others) show are wrong because truth, ethics and creating a better world is always senior to Scientology. Scientology is about creating a better world, while todays CoS is more about winning some kind of crazy made-up game played against everybody outside of the church. What kind of a game is that?

    Think of the eight dynamics and improving the lives of as many as possible. It’s not about the church winning or not. It’s about everybody winning.

    A Scientology overt is always worse than a non-Scientology non-overt. Protect the truth, ethics, morale because that is more important and senior to the church winning or not.

    When some of those “loyal officers” to Miscavige wake up later they will feel very much betrayed and stupid.

  93. DM is hasting his own inevitable end as the head squirrel. His mind filled with hate and war he must sense the urgency to fix his minion´s minds deep to the “fact” that” Mike is the one who left so he must be bad”, and then prove to himself “see Mike, they all hate you but they love me”. DM has ample of examples from over the years how it is not possible to break Mike´s cool. Allow me to share just one which I have observed.

    In 2003 a report was received at OSA Flag of a dead body in the Fort Harrison Hotel. The body had belonged to an elderly man, a parishioner, who, if my memory serves right, had been severely diabetic. Perfect. So now we had another dead body in our hands in top of Lisa McPherson, the reason Mike had been at the Flag Land Base for endless months. So, Peter Mansell (oh hi there Peter) got the job to report about this tragedy to Mike, our beloved boss. We were a bit more than nervous, I had already started to picture the next media and legal nightmare.. The phonecall to Mike was short. Upon Peter´a brief rundown of the incident Mike wanted him to find out if the body had signs of dehydration – a nod to Lisa´s alleged condition when she passed. There was no yelling, make wrong, nothing. He just wanted facts. While we his juniors should have known Mike better we were quite relieved and could get on with our tasks and get the facts sorted. And while Mike remained cool and calm I do know that the then RTC Rep had a screaming fit over this incident with another OSA staff threatening her with God knows what and as a result she was terribly introverted for weeks.

    Mike, Christie and Shane, I just want you to stay safe and happy and enjoy the sun in Pinellas. I also hope Benjamin joins you one day.

    To John Sweeney, Tom Tobin, (hi!) anticipating your next reporting of facts of this “church”!

    Love, Kirsi

  94. Mike, just to clarify – you were referring to inurNment because a few folks over on Exscn seem to be confusing this with private inurEment which obviously has an entirely different meaning! I chose to believe you meant what you typed – ie. the former, which leaves me absolutely horrified!

    • Maggie,

      I amm sorry, my typo. It is Inurement and there are some links in the posts above that will give you an idea of what it means.

      Mike

      • Phew! That’s okay, I know what Private Inurement is – I didn’t have time to read through the comments and was a little shocked to read inurNment! Then again nothing would surprise me about that man.! I’m so sorry to hear that you still have family trapped in the Miscavige Madness – I do hope they think about what you’ve told them and come to their senses.

  95. I would like to send the each member of DM’s posse of seven a large bag of nuts.

    What address do I use?

  96. Mike,

    Our thoughts are with you and Marty as you continue to put sanity into the current church scene.

    It has often been said that sunlight is one of the best disinfectants. Hopefully, your efforts to shine light on the covert activities of the CofS will raise the awareness of the Kool-Aid drinkers and will result in more defections or at least a recognition of the overts they are committing.

    Carrying a small solid state voice-activated recorder at all times might be good insurance. Most of the new ones will record up to 24 hours with excellent fidelity.

  97. Wow Mike. I am so sorry you had to deal with this. But I do love how BBC was on the line and got to hear it first hand.
    Cost of PI’s: $65,000
    Cost of attorneys: $750,000
    Cost of BBC taping a DM “channelling” moment for WW distribution: Priceless.

    I’m sure you are contemplating ways for maximum exposure and distribution of this delightful tidbit of DA material.

  98. OMG! This is hilarious and pathetic. DM has come a long way since when I knew him and Big P would send dispatches scolding him for incompetence. He’s gone completely nutters.

  99. Looking this whole thing over, I guess that whole PR line that the violence ended with the dismissal of Mike and Marty sort of is blown.

    Seven attack dogs violently ranting in a public space recorded by the media. Ummmm, Dave, duh!

    Why don’t you just go on CNN and punch somebody to show you don’t punch people. Duh!

  100. I’m, curious, what exactly WAS the purpose of this attack? Surely they don’t believe this kind of activity is going to inspire Mike to have some “cogition” that he should return to the Int Base? Is it just to intimidate him to generally shut up? Seeing Mike’s track record would convince anyone that he’s not about to keep quiet, so what’s the point of this carefully “thought out” attack? Maybe I’m trying to apply logic to DM’s irrational mind so no logic is forthcomiing. Maybe it was simply meant to enturbulate, just viciousness, nothing more, nothing less.

    • Beebercat — yeah, only meant to enturbulate. See my response to Dallas and various other comments I have made here about what goes on behind the scenes in Miscavige’s twisted mind. Mike

  101. @beebercat:

    ‘Hey Jim, there’s that famous one…”2D rules”, … named after an actual PL with the same title that says the OPPOSITE of what the FO says. I wonder how many went to the RPF on that one, NOT written by LRH. (ok, ok, maybe I’ve got just a tad BBC on this…I guess I could use a little of that “heavy petting” right now…)’

    beebercat, a little clarification. I was Flag Mimeo Proofreader and proofread that FO from the original when it was released. While it is correct that most of the FO was not written by LRH, the last (?) paragraph was an addition, HANDwritten by LRH, on the typewritten original submission. The explanation about the super emotional charge and orgs spinning in and going to blazes — that paragraph is 100% LRH, and clearly he personally approved of the whole thing.

    “how many went to the RPF”? Hundreds, if not thousands, and you can be sure it continues to this day. But there is another, much earlier LRH FO that calls for SO member guilty of out-2D to be “beached” (offloaded from the ship and the SO — figuratively or literally put on the beach), and that has been carried out too, though less often.

    • That’s very interesting information, although a couple of things don’t make sense to me. One, LRH’s name wasn’t on that FO, at least when I saw it. Two, the phrases “heavy petting” and “mock up a 2-D” are very open to interpretation. my experience with LRH’s style of writing is that he’s very specific, and says exactly what he means. I can’t see him stating such important rules so vaguely, as that could only result in many ethics cycles becoming injustices and ARC breaks. I’ve seen people sent to the rpf for nothing more than “having flows” as this was “mocking up”. and teenagers RPFed for kissing, as this was “heavy petting”. Even if he didn’t write that paragraph, I think if he had seen it he would have ammended it to state exactly what was allowed and what wasn’t. And the biggest outpoint I see is that this FO contradicts what’s in Policy. I’m sorry I don’t have the reference to hand, but my pharaphrase is “all policys concerning the 2-D are cancelled, that it’s not up to Scientology to run people’s lives, and that only auditing handles aberration of such depth”.
      I’m not disputing you saw what you saw. I’m trying to figure out how all this fits together. Possibly the non LRH part was added onto an existing LRH handwritten document, I don’t know.
      Do you have any backround verification of the “beaching” FO?
      A friend once told me tat at that time of those FO’s the out-2-D in the SO was rampant, and was causing extreme enturbulation, out PR, and crashing the stats. Possibly these FOs were written as a quick handling for that time, like a danger condition. Possibly it was reviewed later and was meant to be cancellled, or updated and this never saw the light of day, I don’t know. It just doesn’t make sense to me. Also the “beaching”. No ethics gradients, no auditing, no Ethics protection, no nothing? Just take some worthwhile staff member, no matter his track, no matter if he’s a Class 8, just that’s it, you’re outa here?
      Doesn’t seem like optimun survival.

      • beebercat,
        Julie Caetono put together the 2D rules F.O. you are talking about. Inside story is that ‘heavy petting’ was under the pants and below the belt. You know, ‘heavy’. Unless of course you were light about it.

        As is the case with so many rules, they are taken and exaggerated beyond any reason and such exaggeration carried too far is insanity.

        Here’s another bit from the Comm Member System PL of 13 March 65 and LRH’s idea of policy.

        “Almost all current trouble is occurring because of departures from policy yesterday or from causes never before experienced by the group. Policy is group experience. Followed, the group advances. Abandoned, the group falls away. Only Scientologists dare become fiends about following policy for only Scientologists know enough to erase it when it no longer applies. But drop a policy as if one were letting go the only piece of wood in the ocean – once gone there may be no rescue to hand. To demand that unimportant “policy” be followed slavishly or to use it to balk org purposes is another way of dying. For it makes people fight major policy and fighting that they have disasters. A group is only a collection of different people without policy to agree upon. For policies are the points of agreement which make the group into a True Group and an irresistible force. Using policy intelligently is the only way a group can ever advance.”

      • Hi beebercat,

        To the best of my recollection, the FO was signed:

        Commodore’s Messenger
        for
        L. RON HUBBARD
        Commodore

        I’m pretty sure his name was on it, as it was unusual for issues authored or approved by him to not carry his name somewhere in the signature. Any “for LRH” issue had to be approved by him, at least at that time. I don’t remember if I knew who the “Commodore’s Messenger” was, except I remember having the distinct impression it was one or more teenage girls who had never experienced any of the activities in question.

        The language may have been imprecise, but the bigger problem was that it was interpreted by morons, and LRH did not always anticipate how moronic people would get. “Heavy petting,” though quaint, has a distinct meaning, and it ain’t kissing. Anybody who got RPFed for kissing or for “flows” (and I saw it happen too) should have demanded a comm ev and appealed it and fought it all the way, but whatever.

        Given the way the original was submitted, it isn’t really feasible that the typewritten part was added later than LRH’s paragraph or that he didn’t see and approve the entire text of the FO just as it was issued. It was all typed on one page, with no cutting and pasting. His handwritten addition was on the same page as the typed FO, right where it appeared in the mimeo version. Also, LRH issues came to us either from Pers Comm or AVU/AVC, and I’m pretty sure that, during that era at least, any attempted shenanigans with LRH approval of an issue would have been caught and dealt with mercilessly.

        I know the policy you refer to, but the FO doesn’t contradict it. The SO has always had stricter rules for itself.

        I don’t think I ever saw the “beaching” FO original. It was long before my time. However, I believe it to be a genuine LRH FO. There was a big effort, consisting of several lengthy missions, around my time in Mimeo, to identify all the issues that said they were by or approved by LRH but weren’t really, and get them reissued with a correct signature (or canceled). That one survived intact, over LRH’s signature.
        As far as ethics gradients go, I think that was meant to be the ethics gradient — short of SP declare, which was also done in some cases. Ethics protection was not bypassed and did save an occasional neck, but you had to have an awful lot of it to get away with something as heinous as out-2D.

        Probably it’s true that “out”-2D was rampant at the time. It usually is, at all times and in all places. Whether it was the *actual* reason for enturbulation and bad stats, I doubt, but that was a claim. However, I know of nothing to support the hypothesis that the 2D Rules FO was ever meant to be a quick fix, to be temporary, or to be reviewed later. I understand your confusion; I felt the same way when ED Int finally and permanently outlawed reproduction in the Sea Org. However, there was no mistake, in either case.

        My own opinion is that LRH was what you’d call severely aberrated on the 2D. After all, he did let his own wife go to prison and be permanently exiled from Scientology and from his life, for activities he was directly involved in. There is also the matter of the “Affirmations.” He never managed to overcome the 2D issues in his own life, and in the end he couldn’t leave it alone in other people’s lives. You may value his technology, and that’s fine, but he was still a human being. Pants one leg at a time, that sort of thing. Not infallible.

        • Dan Garvin, Beeber cat, et al, I haven’t been administrating much for the past day. I see this thread and ask myself “can these guys be serious?”. What on earth would 2D rules have to do with the issues at hand?

      • Jim,

        You came through again with another very appropriate policy on POLICY…thanks!

      • Beebercat,

        You may find this thread over on ESMB of some interest: http://forum.exscn.net/showthread.php?t=16669

        Joe Van Staden gives an interesting account of the early days of the SO from his viewpoint as one of the captains of the Apollo. Certain “shenanigans” of Apollo crew while ashore led to the Apollo being asked to leave several ports at short notice. While this was during the “sexual revolution” of the 60′s, some of the behaviour was clearly unacceptable to the local customs and mores. Within this context the early FO’s align with your thoughts re: handling dangerous situations.

      • really Jim, I mean, on top of the pants and above the waist was ok? Wow! I wish I had known that! (heh heh heh, tongue lolling out)
        : )

      • hey Marty, did I do something wrong? I realize that was a tangent off the main issue, (didn’t really mean to stray so far) but I thought that was ok here…I love this blog and certainly meant no disrespect to the subject at hand.

    • lol nothing, Marty, you’re quite right. The FO came up and, well, people like talking about sex! Anyway — I’m done. I think. >=)

  102. Mike I have a burning question for you and Marty.

    Based on your years of working with DM, which “stable delusional datum” is he most likely attached to?

    1. The tech is true and he is the “new” LRH and NOW the true source.
    2. The tech isn’t true and he is a fraudulent, religious mafia boss that is so powerful, he cannot lose.
    3. ((OTHER OPTION I AM NOT SEEING))

    • Bunkai,

      Marty may want to offer his opinion on this, and it may differ from mine. My take is that its neither one of your options. He is so self-absorbed with maintaining his position and power and basking in the adulation of the masses that he doesnt care whether the tech is true or not, he only cares if it is something he can use to forward his own ends. This is his only guiding principle — What is good for me is right/standard/On Source/in tech or whatever other adjective suits the circumstances. Truth be damned — there is only one reality and that is his reality.

      Mike

      Mike

      • Seemed appropriate here:
        From Dianetics 55! pg 71 (new version)
        in LRH’s handwriting:
        “*Amongst the unable (ul) is the criminal, who is unable (ul) to think of the other fellow, unable (ul) to determine his own actions, is unable (ul) to follow orders, unable (ul) to make things grow, is unable to determine the difference between good and evil, is unable (ul) to think at all on the future–Anybody has some of these, the criminal has all (heavy ul) of them–LRH

    • Mr. Rinder, you seem to be confronting the reality of “what goes around comes around” quite well.

      You are taking what you used to dish out, and that says something.

      I look forward to your BBC interview and hope the sound techs at BBC can work a miracle out of that phone call.

      • Oops. I didn’t refresh my page before you answered and my answer above was not in reply to your reply.

        Oh well, I meant it anyway.

        Thanks Mike. Good thoughts to you.

      • So what you are saying is that he is caught up in the delusions of power and maintaining it at any cost “truth be damned.”

        “Truth is what keeps me in power.”

        This delusion creates insanity because it forces one to take on two unique outcomes that must exist in separate universes. You cannot be both a fraudulent mafia boss and a messiah’s replacement at the same time. If you try, it’s like dividing by zero.

        Looks like that is what is happening based on how I understand your statement. His power obsession is not allowing him to accept a stable datum.

  103. David Miscaviage is easy to understand. There is no complexity to him. He is the essence of evil masquerading as a church leader. When it’s not pure evil, it’s pure envy or both.

    Mike is loyal to LRH. DM can’t even think with that virtue and secretly envies someone who can feel and express it. Mike is an honorable man. DM has no honor and long since stopped wondering how he might get some. Mike has a family. DM could never have or enjoy a family so long since gave up trying. Mike has many heart felt friends, DM doesn’t even know what one is, he only has sycophants but he envies Mike all the same.

    So the squat little meat body call DM just sits there frothing, frothing, frothing working out his great plan to destroy Mike who has everything DM is incapable of having.

    What enfolds is macabre. DM sends some of his sycophants, made in his own image, who act like uneducated, screaming low life’s and the BBC gets to record it all!

  104. Well now, this whole episode just takes the cake. I think I need to type up my Non-E and ask Marty to post it here.

    Yes, I definitely think that’s what I will do.

    And also a letter to my friends whom I believe are still on staff. I haven’t spoken to them in years, but they are still my friends.

    I almost took this step a while back when I discovered that musical chairs being a High Crime is no longer in the ethics book. The posts above about the “DM Birthday Game” really are the last straw.

  105. Mike,

    What a bizarre experience. Even under the circumstances, I’m glad you got to see your brother and your daughter. It sounds like Andrew was trying to maintain some bit of sanity. I wonder what he thought of the actions of the others? I hope he takes the time to speak to you privately.

    Your ex, or soon to be ex-wife Cathy appears to be stalking you and Christie. Personally I’d consider a restraining order. Her attack on Christie was that of a washed up cheerleader who realizes her boyfriend has moved on to a hotter, smarter woman.

    It reminded me of that female astronaut who wore diapers so she could drive non-stop across the country to confront her ex-lovers new girlfriend. That woman was brought up on charges and it made national headlines. The things Cathy was saying and the way she acted is similar and disturbing.

    I suppose expecting rational behavior from an organization that has gone insane is asking too much.

    Take care, I’m soooo looking forward to that BBC piece, complete with this recent incident.

    Natalie

  106. Tara, Thanks for your com and welcome.

  107. I can’t help but read the pain you feel for having family members involved. Cathy is virtually no longer to be found – buried by a ton of suppression and oppression. However, I believe about her, as I believe about others that I know and love that are still in, that she’s still the full of heart person that I knew many years ago in CW, and the Cathy you were married to – you just can’t find her and she can’t get out. Your brother who isn’t SO and Taryn who hasn’t been in as long as Cathy haven’t had their beingness suppressed and squished aside near as much.
    Sadly, you and others survived worse at Int and there are still people there who are subjected to this insanity.

  108. Marty and Mike,

    As an SO exec, I always respected and wished to meet you someday.

    Now, once again on the track, as a revolutionary of our time for our Tech, I admire and am grateful for you and your persistence. Now even more, I wish the honor of meeting you two one day and shaking your hands-I will do that.

    Thank you!

  109. [quote]
    DM couldn’t have foreseen that his little ambush squad would approach me when I was on the phone with John Sweeney from the BBC in the midst of a recorded interview! So, everything the DMbots said was recorded as it went down by the BBC
    [endquote]

    Hum, ok, so they arrived *after* the interviewed started? Good, John Sweeney will be able to tell them that they WERE NOT THERE AT THE BEGINNING OF THE INTERVIEW!!

  110. The curtain’s drawing on DM. He’s in the destroy-destroy phase of the cycle. He’s in the midst of a whole track dramatization, so he’ll do himself in, Mike, though not in an honorable way. There is no Bushido in this cowardly little man. He will bring everything down with him.

    In the meantime, when you are again confronted – as you will be because, sadly, Jenny’s in the valence of the chief of the secret police – remember Axioms 56 and 57:

    “AX56 – Theta brings order to chaos.

    COROLLARY: Chaos brings disorder to theta.

    AX57 – Order manifests when communication, control and havingness are available to theta.

    DEFINITIONS:

    Communication: the interchange of ideas across space.

    Control: positive postulating, which is intention, and the execution thereof.

    Havingness: that which permits the experience of mass and pressure.”

    Good luck, though I don’t think you’ll need it.

  111. Mike, I am quite sure that all this effort is focused on you in particular because you are very well-regarded amongst OSA staff.

    I have spoken to more than one ex OSA staff member who considered you to be a very stable, in-ethics, capable “good” guy.

    Their words, not mine.

    They were shocked to learn that you had left the Church. Very shocked.

    So you are a very serious threat because you were trusted and well-regarded by OSA staff, and provided leadership and stability to them over the years.

    They are much more likely to listen to you than to someone they do not know or considered to be not a “good” guy.

    I am thankful to you for your continued efforts to set things right, and for maintaining your own standards of integrity.

    Clearly OSA staff do respond to truth and can act to clean up the Church – after all, you are ex-OSA and here we are.

    Thanks very much for caring enough to take action. My heart goes out to for having to face such a painful experience.

  112. Mike, well done! I look forward to meet you!
    hugs

  113. Yes, this was definitely a shore flap of huge proportions but for those of you who think the S.O. should be disbanded, try again. Once dm and his lackeys are out, then the S.O. should have standard leadership and be put back on to Flag Orders (Black on White) and LRH Green on White and get the ball rolling Standardly again.

    • The word standard always makes my skin itch.

      • CD,
        Try using Matched Terminals processing from 8-8008 and match it up with ‘non-standard’ for the other side of the dichotomy. Or, just say it over and over, standard, standard, standard, standard and so on. Or, get a poultice, a salve, an unguent.

      • haha

        It was a ment methaphoricly but you sure whipped out a practical use for the tech you refered too.

        Some comments below this somebody is getting slightly roasted for taking thinks too literally.

        stand·ard   /ˈstændərd/ Show Spelled[stan-derd] Show IPA
        –noun

        1.something considered by an authority or by general consent as a basis of comparison; an approved model.

        Arggh authority and general consent. more icky words

  114. I just wish anyone with enough guts close to DM secretly filmed a beating by DM. That would end the church as we know it.

    • Theo Sismanides

      spatula, great idea, let’s send a plant to Int and do it. Hahaha! Now they are going to be taking off watches and pens and everything from the poor staff! Poor, poor guys. PTSness… It’s so pathetic!

  115. Another couple of thoughts I had:

    1. What turns it on will turn it off. If you guys were to keep hanging around Clearwater, I think it would drive DM batshit. Just walk around in a Navy uniform with some Captains stripes and talk to Sea Org guys in Starbucks. DM would freak.

    2. Another coup could be to get several ex Sea Org staff and OT’s to picket between the Sandcastle OT facility and the other smaller hotel near it where ther is a lot of OT body traffic.

    3. There should be a growing pot of money that goes to the first person at a Major Event to declare on Microphone that DM is an SP.
    :-)

    • Alex

      Brilliant!! Plus, an escalation of action would be a physical manifestation of DM’s inability to “handle” Marty and co.

    • Diabolical! The escalating pot of money as $$$ does seem to impinge greatly on many still within the CO$ ranks. Sad, sad, sad.

  116. Hello to WH,

    Love to say hi, if you are so inclined. Have no idea who you are, but that’s OK! If you’re here, you cool.
    Just do a search on Google for my name.

    Yes, this was my little coming out party.
    Felt good. Thanks to Marty and Mike and all the other brave souls here, I’m smiling a lot these days.

    A quick note for nonscientologist:
    TONE 40, 1. defined as “giving a command and just knowing it will be executed despite any contrary appearance.” From the D & S technical dictionary by Ron. There is more to the definition but this should help clarify.

    Penny (formerly)
    Lowprofileforthemoment.

    • Hi Penny — yup – that’s definitely you. Found your website. How cool – oriental rugs.

      We’ll definitely touch base — not quite right at the moment but you can be sure I’m doing what I can on other non-scientology lines to spread the word about dm and what scientology has become.

      Great to see you!!

      WH

  117. Just a little inside insight – you may think that DM is off somewhere doing something else and these people acted independently. Oh no. My bet is that these seven people came DIRECTLY from a meeting with DM just a few minutes earlier. I saw it happen many times at the Base and in LA – DM holds a meeting, gets a bunch of people whipped up and sends them out to “confront” or “handle” someone. And of course, he’s waiting to hear how it went and they will be reporting right back to him. Picture DM pacing in his office until they get back, and you’ve got it about right. He’s not “too busy” to handle this sort of thing himself – he’s obsessed with it, and is doing little else.

    DM used to justify his violence by reading a quote from LRH, and someone may know where it comes from, to the effect that “you have to treat an SP rough, rough, rough.” He hung on to that one quote like a drowning man holding on to a plank. Couple that with the fact that DM feels he is constantly surrounded by SPs, and you sort of get his mindset. In his mind, you are either an SP or you are helping him rough up the SPs, no middle ground.

    • Jeff,

      Oh, how right you are.

      In fact, when the PIs followed me to the doctors parking lot and Jenny was alerted that I was there, standing by myself talking on the phone with nobody around, she called DM and told him the circumstances and he gave the go ahead for them to approach me. Guarantee he micro-managed it down to the last second before they walked the last 20 yards to “confront” me.

      He may even have had another person who stayed behind in a car watching what was happening who was on the phone to him reporting everything as it went down.

      He defies the term micro-manager — I think a new term should be coined to describe him: microbe-manager.

      Meanwhile, his fixation on me and Marty and other SPs who are out to get him consumes his day and he completely ignores the whole world of Scientology and the fact that it is shrinking, shrinking, shrinking.

      Mike

      • Perfect post title for him — “DM the Microbe Manager.” With the hey-you state of the current Int org board, it’s fitting that “Microbe Manager” is the top post, leading the microbes into the sea. :)

      • Mike,
        I just don’t consider you and Marty as “microbes” though perhaps those minions taking orders could be considered “microbes”. Lets just hope the minions are not the antibiotic resistant type of microbe cuz they are really tough to control.
        Vicki

    • Jeff,
      The reference is 5 April 65 Handling the Suppressive Person, The Basis of Insanity.

      DM of course takes a sentence out of context and exaggerates it to insanity. For instance this one:

      “Since such a person has withholds, he or she can’t communicate freely to as-is the block on the track that keeps them in some yesterday. Hence, a “no-case-gain”.

      ” That alone is the way to locate a Suppressive Person. By viewing the case. Never judge such a person by their conduct. That is too difficult. Judge by no-case-gains. Don’t even use tests.

      ” One asks these questions:

      1. Will the person permit auditing at all? or

      2. Does their history of routine auditing reveal any gains?

      “If (1) is “No”, one is safe to treat the person as suppressive. It is not always correct but it is always safe. Some errors will be made but it is better to make them than to take a chance on it. When people refuse auditing they are (a) a potential trouble source (connected to a Suppressive Person); (b) a person with a big discreditable withhold; (c) a Suppressive Person or (d) have had the bad luck to be “audited” too often by a Suppressive Person or (e) have been audited by an untrained auditor or one “trained” by a Suppressive Person.

      “[The last category (e) (untrained auditor) is rather slight but (d) (audited by a Suppressive Person) can have been pretty serious, resulting in continual ARC Breaks during which auditing was pressed on without regard to the ARC Break. ]

      “Thus there are several possibilities where somebody refuses auditing. One has to sort them out in an HGC and handle the right one. But HCO by policy simply treats the person with the same admin policy procedure as that used on a Suppressive Person and lets HGC sort it out. Get that difference – it’s “with the same admin policy procedure as” not “the same as”.

      “For treating a person “the same as” a Suppressive Person when he or she is not only adds to the confusion. One treats a real Suppressive Person pretty rough. One has to handle the bank.

      “As to (2) here is the real test and the only valid test: Does their history of routine auditing reveal any gains?

      “If the answer is NO then there is your Suppressive Person, loud and very unclear!”

      NOTE: One treats the REAL Suppressive Person pretty rough. How many REAL SPs in a group? Well, aside from the well know 2.5%, there is another issue from 29 Sept 65, The Continuing Overt Act which says “One pc in a thousand”.

      DM figures we’re all SPs.

    • Jeff, you are right on the money – as has become a norm.

  118. I’ve been protesting against CoS for 2 years and yikes. Mad Picket, whats going on in Australia, that is some nasty behavior from those handlers.

    BBC is going to have a field day with all that. And they wonder why Clearwater is nearly empty. I wouldn’t want to live in a town with people who would act like that because they were ordered to, especially while it was being recorded and put on the internet, or in Rinder’s case, possibly on international television.

    Unfortunate someone got hurt. If she wasn’t acting uncivilized, the doc could have possibly treated it. Hope they allow disinfectants where she works at the very least.

  119. Mike,

    You said it all here “I have no intention of living at effect of them. I am doing nothing wrong annd have nothing to hide”. This is driving little Davey who has a lot to hide crazy!

    You and Christie are powerhouses. Enjoy your life.
    I can not wait to see BBC report and all these evidences.
    Thank you Mike for all you are doing!

  120. Mike, do you still believe everything you were ever taught about LRH, The Tech, Scientology, etc? Are you starting to question more than just DM? After all, LRH did create the Guardian’s Office, The RPF, Operation Freak Out, and Operation Snow White. You do know these things, correct?

    • April,

      I beleive everything I OBSERVED about Scientology and LRH. And everything I experienced about the Tech. The “creations” of LRH (such as the RPF, the GO, Snow White — sorry to inform you he didnt create Operation Freakout) were not inherently wrong. Read the original issues on the RPF or GO or actually study the Snow White issues and you will see they arent what they became or have become in legend.

      Mike

      • Who created Operation freakout than ?

      • There were also whistle blowers during pre-David Miscavige era. By respect to those whistle-blowers who came before, there is also much to learn from them, what they observed shouldn’t be dismissed too quickly.

      • I’ve heard stories from people (on the net) that there were times when LRH behaved crazy. People were thrown into the sea even at old age. How can we find out the truth?
        Looking from Div 6 perspective to Scientology everything is nice. But digging deeper we find for example that free speech and free thinking is prohibited by green on white.
        How can you explain these things?
        I think an open discussion of Scientology is needed even from the side of the Church putting away all propaganda.
        When I’ve got into Scientology I saw the same faults I see today but I put aside everything with the hope that finally “everybody wins”. No I can clearly see it is not the case and I think there is something sinister behind the subject of Scientology itself.
        LRH was an intelligent agent. And as far as I know he was a psychiatric patient. Please correct me if I am wrong. And he devised Scientology although both of these facts would disqualify him even as a Scientologist not speaking of him as “Source”.

      • OD,
        Scientology is knowing how to know, yourself.

        How the fu#! can that be ‘sinister’?

        Are you sinister? I presume not.

      • Mike, what about what the people who worked for LRH during the days of Snow White, the RPF, and GO?

        People like Hanna Whitfield and Gerry Armstrong. Their observations are not matching yours.

        Are you taking what you formally dished out to just reboot old LRH tech?

      • Marty, who was GO B1?

        Cat Daddy, why the “facepalm”? Have you actually read Operation Snow White? The whole thing was pretty innocuous and was actually a pretty clever (and very legal) plan.

      • to: Jim Logan
        Dear Jim, of course “knowing how to know yourself” is not sinister.
        But throwing the elderly (if actually happened) to the Sea isn’t?
        And in earlier posts I’ve pointed out a couple of references. Besides I’ve noted that Div6 materials are nice. Talking of Freedom of Thought, Speech, etc… But policy letters are just taking away many of those things Div6 is about.
        Besides LRH does not specify his sources. But calls Scientology the only workable technology of the mind. Altering is regarded squirreling by LRH. Although his sources says that achievement is possible through those systems. So he altered those systems, does not specify his sources but says that altering what he says is squirreling. Tricky. Is this honest?
        But I do not say Scientology is all bad. I myself applied it for the sake of others many times. The only thing I say it would need some fine tuning. But recently discovering his sources I am not so much impressed by Scientology as I was before.

      • Overdriver,
        Dude, at the beginning of Science of Survival and 8-8008 there are lists of philosophers, scientists, religionists, etc. Peppered throughout books, issues, lectures are the names of ‘sources’. LRH had a very full library and at all opportunities, read and encourages others to do the same. How in the world these facts can be construed as some sort of withhold on his part, that you now have revealed to you is beyond comprehension.

      • Cat Daddy,

        Please note: Operation Freakout was not written (or approved) by LRH.

      • Jim, I think that list of philosophers, etc… served mainly “promotional” purposes. To make Scientology more acceptable and authentic. Where can you state something like this: “it is from LRH”? You have to give the exact reference. Like: “HCO PL UFOs on Mars August 21. 2019. Revised etc…” The correct thing to do if you take “quotes” from a work is to give the author and the title of the book at least. Like: “Buddha said according to the Heart of Perfect Wisdom Sutra” or “Bransden, BH; Joachain, CJ (2002). Physics of Atoms and Molecules (2nd ed.). Prentice Hall. ISBN 0-582-35692-X.”
        I do not know an instance where he encouraged others others to do the same. Do you know KSW? If you would read a book about Buddhism your reward would be endless Sec Checks until you would forget to even think about it. Even in the Scientology world of LRH.
        So don’t call me dude, please. Actually I did not stated about Scientology as it is that it would be sinister as you stated earlier. So: “How the fu#! can” you state these?
        What I can observe by my own eyes is that the most weird people I’ve ever saw are from Scientologists. The majority of these guys behave like they would be brainwashed (except a couple of exceptions like Marty, Geir, or Mike and the majority of the “Independents”).
        Do you want to tell me that LRH has absolutely nothing to do with it?
        Further if you look at the original sources and word clear those sources, you can see that they state as well (as Scientology states) that “Total Freedom” (call it any other name those systems use as an alternate) is attainable through those systems. So if LRH read those scripts and made his own system and says that all other systems are wrong that means he himself was a squirrel.
        LRH said in KSW: “Never let them be half-minded about being Scientologists.” So do you still say he encouraged anybody to read anything else except Scientology?
        “The proper instruction
        attitude is, “You’re here so you’re a Scientologist. Now we’re going to make
        you into an expert auditor no matter what happens. We’d rather have you dead
        than incapable.””
        !!! rather have you dead !!!
        Sorry, but these words (and there are much more) can justify any and all cruelty in Scientology against any wog, public, staff or SO member by any senior. You can’t utter words like these unless you take responsibility for the consequences. LRH knew exactly what percent of humanity would misuse the tech. They have the perfect instruction manual how to misuse.
        And if you are not a whole hearted genius of utmost goodwill and without any human faults, I guarantee, you will misuse, because exactly these words will make you to behave like a fanatic.

    • crashing upwards

      Hi April. There is no doubt that parts of the overal Scientology operation became twisted and went criminal. Your inference on that is understood.
      But the RPF was supposed to be a first dynamic life line for someone who is messed up or messing up and who truely wanted to stay in the group. It lost its way. It became a tool for punishment and suppression
      The GO was supposed to safeguard the church, some parts of it lost their way through Snow White which was intented to correct the record of false reports on Scinetology.
      No one is saying, at least I am not, that LRH doesnt have some ownership and responsibility for this. But to be fair they all went off the rails in the later years and their initial purpose was not what they ultimately turned into.
      If LRH himself went off the rails and lost some control and judgement in his later years it wouldnt surprise me and it also wouldnt be cause to totally condemn him.
      The current state of affairs and this wayward child called scientology currently has a lot of fathers and mothers. And there is a bit of a custody battle going on.
      The task at hand is righting the ship and correcting the abuses. Some of those mothers and fathers are here trying to set it right. And I believe they deserve our support.

      • ” Snow White which was intented to correct the record of false reports on Scinetology.”
        :facepalm:

      • (oops, meant this part here.)

        Cat Daddy, why the “facepalm”? Have you actually read Operation Snow White? The whole thing was pretty innocuous and was actually a pretty clever (and very legal) plan.

      • It’s also a matter of how you want to judge someone: by the best of their work or the worst of their work?

        The body of work is the body of work and how you judge it is more a reflection on you than the work itself.

      • I know what you mean Joe Howard. I like to keep this small , about the legallity of certain Operations. If Margaret had not used the word legal and Snow white in one sentence I would not have gone into it.

    • Margaret burgarly is Illegal and conspiring against the goverment of the unites States of America is Illegal.

      clever is no excuus to do illigal things.

      • Cat Daddy, please supply the exact page and paragraph in the Operation Snow White issues where it says “commit burglary” and “conspire against the USA”.

        Unfortunately, you will look in vain. They do not exist.

        What does exist is LRH’s “Special Zone Plan”, subtitled “The Scientologist’s Role in Life” written on 23-Jun-1960, in which LRH basically says (paraphrased): To All Scientologists Around the World — Go out into the world, get onto the communication channels of life, and make your presence felt improving conditions.

        As one scholar (Hugh B. Urban) recently pointed out, in one section of the Special Zone Plan (in which he omits the subtitle), LRH said “A nation or state runs on the ability of its department heads, its governors or any other leaders. It is easy to get posts in such areas unless one has delusions of grandeur or fear of it. Don’t bother to get elected. Get a job on the secretarial staff or the bodyguard, use any talent one has to get a place close in, go to work on the environment and make it function better. [Urban leaves this last section out oddly]. Occasionally one might lose, but in the large majority, doing a good job and making the environment function [Urban also, oddly, leaves most of this part out] will result in promotion, better contacts, a widening zone.”

        Despite Urban’s morphing the above to make it appear nepharious, Urban appears ignorant of (or omits) the following from the “Purpose” section of the actual Operation Snow White issues written by LRH in 1973 which states:

        “To engage in various litigation in all countries affected so as to expose to view all such derogatory and false reports [on Scientology], to engage in further litigation in the countries originating such reports, to exhaust recourse in these countries and then finally to take the matter to the United Nations (that now being possible for an individual and a group) and to the European Commission on Human Rights, meanwhile uprooting and canceling all such files and reports wherever found.”

        In other words, LRH was saying: take legal remedies to expose and correct derogatory or false information on Scientology in governmental files.

        While our scholar Urban does not directly link LRH to the illegal activities that did occur, he does warp LRH’s words in the above Special Zone Plan policy in order to make it appear that LRH was effectively saying to “infiltrate the government”. Which is also a common tactic of critics. Having laid this groundwork, Urban goes on to say:

        “However, it was not until [the Church of Scientology] was faced with increasing harassment from the IRS, FBI and FDA that the Church undertook serious attempts to infiltrate specific government agencies in order to engage in covert and illegal operations. The most remarkable of these operations was begun in 1975, when Jane Kember, the Church’s Guardian Worldwide, issued an order calling for decisive action against the IRS Service.”

        And therein lies the origins behind the rumor that LRH was telling people to “infiltrate the government” and “commit burglary”.

        Hope that helps.

      • Your link says that the Operation Snow White clearly said that these actions were to be done “legally” … and then it claims that the word “legally” was later taken out (though no reference to this is provided, and it also fails to mention *who* purportedly took it out, or even *where* it was purportedly taken out.)

        Further, in the “United States” section at the link you provided, it clearly says “Any action taken against this area [US] must also be very polite and not abusive.”

        I don’t know who made the purported “legally” change mentioned above, but I find it very unlikely that it was LRH (since he made it clear that all the actions were to be “legal”, as well as “polite and not abusive”, in the original issue).

        As to whether he somehow KNEW that illegalities were going on, I highly doubt it. But I’ll let those who were with him and knew him personally (if they have firsthand knowledge regarding the GO and what LRH knew), let them (eventually) tell their stories.

        As far as I’m concerned, the whole GO vs. FBI thing was not too different than another generation’s Boston Tea Party — I think it was stupid (and yes illegal) but I also understand the frustration that was felt by the Scientologists involved.

        And yes, had Operation Snow White been followed legally — the way it was originally written by LRH — it would have been a very clever (and effective) plan, imho.

      • “As to whether he somehow KNEW that illegalities were going on, I highly doubt it.”

        He was actively involved in Project Normandy and that was Illegal too. I think you are highly naive in thinking he did not know.

      • “He was actively involved in Project Normandy and that was Illegal too.”

        Oh Lordy … here we go again.

        The words “PR Area Control” (which basically means “getting people to like you”) is turned into “area control” by the critics and redefined to mean “take over the city”.

        Cat Daddy, this isn’t about being naive … this is more about your unfamiliarity with innocuous Scn terms and, because of that, the ability of Scn critics to get a bright person like you to believe the critics’ twisted meanings and intentions.

      • I did not even know of the term PR Area Control untill you brought it up just yet.

        Scientology operations work on a need to know basis and I guess you were not in the loop and got told what was and acceptable thruth. It easy use the bleuprint of the OT levels in the sense that there are levels that you do not discuss when you are on a different level than the other person. Now think of that and relate that to information about such “sensititive” operations. You onley get told what you need to know or what they want you to convey to others or the public.

        Margaret LRH planning it was partley taped. How to ship the cash in to buy up the buildings using “go throughs”

        And the people of Clearwater where not and are still not happy about what happened covertly.

        Have you ever considered now you are out that you have been served sugarcoated realities or “acceptable thruths”?

        Anons protesting get free Cake/Pie and Pizza from the locals shops in Clearwater and they did not even do PR Area Control.

      • >Have you ever considered now you are out that you have been served sugarcoated realities or “acceptable thruths”?

        Actually, even when I was in I usually took anything the Church said as having a healthy dose of PR.

        I’m not saying that the way things were carried out in Clearwater was all fine and dandy (in fact, in many ways it was horrible), but when the media and the experts get confused between “getting people to like you” with “taking over the city” (and I’m not saying this was you)… well, it’s basically a sign that they are trying to find these secret, evil intentions that simply aren’t there.

        And I do think today that critics go back and take these confusions of yesteryear as evidence of how evil LRH and Scientology were/are.

      • Can it be both Margaret, that both paths where followed ?

    • LRH didn’t create the RPF either. That was done by someone else. Originally, it was done to be able to keep people on staff who were otherwise going to be let go. It wasn’t LRH’s idea.

      • Joe. note that the RPF was created after the Morocon incident.

        “Finally, the Rehabilitation Unit was replaced in January 1974 with the Rehabilitation Project Force or RPF. According to Hubbard, “the RPF has been created by the Commodore [Hubbard] so that redemption can occur.”

      • To ad to that the RPF was a continuance of earlier programs.

      • Cat Daddy, The RPF was designed by Ken Urquhart at the behest of LRH. In response to Jon Atack’s book and description of the RPF in “A Piece of Blue Sky”, here is Ken in his own words:

        “The RPF was introduced by me, not by LRH. I designed it all by myself, in response to an order from him to do something about the people on board who were not, in his view, pulling their weight – but had time to complain loudly. …

        “There are a few things about the original design of the RPF that I now certainly think were wrong, and wish I had done otherwise; in practice, on the ship at least, these things worked themselves out well and eased my conscience. The principal one I have in mind is that the RPF should be fed on the remains of the food given to the general crew. This requirement was well within the traditions of the Sea Org but nonetheless was wrong and unworkable. People have to have decent food and enough of it. I also demanded that RPF people not speak to any crew unless spoken to first. On the ship, this gave way to the practical needs of working together, and nobody made any fuss about it.

        “Off the ship, others set up RPFs. By all accounts, some of these became sadly distorted. By that time, the Byzantine politics of the organization made my intervention pointless.

        “Whatever else one reads into the documents that set up and formed the RPF on the ship, I don’t see how one can miss that the RPF (a) took people out of a highly enturbulated environment, (b) gave them physical tasks to do that they could complete, task by task, (c) encouraged them to do very good jobs of what they were doing, (d) gave them plenty of time in which to study and deliver auditing sessions of each other, (e) was intended to help them recover their own morale (or, in some cases, find it for the first time), (f) returned them to the regular crew.

        “That [a critic] can say that [RPFers] spent all their time ‘revealing their evil purposes’ is ranting nonsense. …

        “I saw a lot of people improve their own conditions markedly by working through the RPF on the ship. If some had a hard time because of incorrect ethics or technical handling I hope they have had or will have the opportunity to repair the damage completely. …

        “That the RPF was made by some an instrument of humiliation is not questioned. Those doing so did it out of their own urges, not mine, and not for long on the ship if I came to hear about it.”

        Source: http://www.freezoneamerica.org/ivy/bluesky/part8.htm

        p.s. I would suggest reading the entirety of this series by Ken Urquhart. As LRH’s personal assistant, friend and confidant to LRH for many years in the 60s and 70s (and now an Independent Scientologist), Ken provides a very unique — and honest — appraisal of LRH and Scientology.

      • Whereas LRH may not have directly created some of the abusive practices, he was certainly aware of all of them.

        For corroboration I would suggest reading the interviews and blogs by Ken Urquhard, his personal communicator for many years. Ken stories are told respectfully and with full recognition of the amazing side of LRH.

        “When I first knew L. Ron Hubbard and worked close to him, in the early 1960’s, he was almost unfailingly cheerful, up-beat, high-toned, positive, energetic, friendly, courteous, respectful, helpful, tolerant, considerate, kindly, firm, commanding, inclusive, open, purposeful, warm, and generous. I remained close to him physically or in the hierarchy until 1978. Over those years he changed profoundly.”

      • Who signed of on it Margaret ?

      • And LRH is supposed to be God? If Ken — a pretty decent fellow — created it with good intentions, but in hindsight would tweak (or abolish) it today given today’s circumstances, is it not possible that LRH would do the same?

        I think LRH expected the CoS to be led by people with good judgement. And I think any signs of good judgement left the building circa 1991.

      • Okay Margaret on paper it is all good. In the end it are people put it in practice. I think self-correction was lacking by asll involved. What indicates that the creation of the Sea Org was a mistake in the first place.

      • I think if the Sea Org is to survive at all, it needs a *serious* reformation.

      • Agreed Margaret, bring it under the supervision of a public elected board instead of it controlling public.

        middle aged men and woman being harrrased for money by teens and 20 somethings seems weird to me.

  121. Bravo Mike

  122. nonscientologist

    Thanks everyone for your answers! :)

  123. April,

    When the RPF was developed in 1975 on the Apollo, it was at the most a 2 month program. It was essentially like being sent to the decks with 5 hours of co-audit time each day. The program was very easy.

    A lot of people back then considered it almost like a holiday, compared to the the stresses of post. Also the RPF probably had at the most 10 % of the crew on it, unlike recent years when it exploded into the hundred’s.

    Actually the RPF was cancelled for a time in the late 70′s/early 80′s. Maybe Mike knows if DM had anything to do with it becoming huge again in the mid 80′s. Of course the program now takes up to nine years to do, and the restrictions have become more and more unbearable.

    • The RPF had become a much more lengthy program well before LRH died. Two years was common. I think it’s gotten much worse since, but it was never a quick trip while I was in the SO (1975 — 2001).

    • Anne Rosenblum left Scientology in late 1978. Here is what she had to say about the RPF:

      “If I could sum the RPF up in just one sentence, it would probably be ‘it is a process by which they make you believe that you are psychotic, and then you actually do become psychotic.’ ”

      Doesn’t sound like a “holiday.”

      • I think the point is: What was it’s initial intent, in the way it was written? Has its use veered off of this original intent?

        If it has, then a valid question is: Why? Was the original RPF policy ever modified to change its intent? Are there other policies/FOs/etc which have changed the originial intent of the RPF policies?

      • Margaret paper is paper. Many lives were crushed. That is more important than paper.

        The way it was set up smells like jail. Even on paper. Actually in jail you get more time for self. Even on paper the RPF is controlling every tid bit of life not to mention that such a thing is in my opinion a wacky thing to devise.

      • Cat Daddy, see my response above wrt Ken Urquhart’s statements and opinions.

  124. Clearwater Lawyer

    Hi Marty and Mike,

    Thanks for the interesting posts and for providing a venue for people to speak the truth. Just as a note that you may find helpful, police reports are public records in Florida. Once the officers finish typing them up the will be available for public inspection. You can look at it for free or get a copy for 10 or 15 cents a page. If it is part of an ongoing investigation, a police report may be exempt. However, I doubt that this incident will be part of an ongoing investigation.

    CL

  125. Mr. Rinder,

    Have you ever been on the other end of one these “gang ups”?

    If so, was it just once or more than once?

    If a man spends years of his life shooting others, should others feel sorry for him when he gets shot?

    Should we feel sympathy for someone who was once on the cause end of something like this but is now on the effect end?

    Didn’t you and Marty Rathbun help to build the Frankenstein monster over the last 20-30 years we are now having to deal with?

    Isn’t there a word for things that happen like this?

    Isn’t that word “Karma”?

    • Dear Tim,

      You cannot image how you actually sound to most of the contributors here, because you, like dm, imagine you are creating huge effects on others where you are really only airing your own failures and disagreements with life.

      Neither Mike Rinder nor Marty Rathbun required defending here. They have passed through that condition of “guilty” to one of “responsible,” and their value to those of us who
      want dm deposed and his crimes exposed puts us way beyond caring about the sordid details.
      So I have to say, get over it.

      What have you done to stop the abuses at Int Base? What personal dangers have you confronted or personal sacrifices have you made to accomplish something positive in this mess of a situation?

    • I think karma applies for all Scientology. Especially when we look into the fact how much was “borrowed” from Buddhism, yet the credit is so small: No workable system exists only Scientology…

    • Not really the same kind of thing as “Karma”. I have a stranger word: taking “responsibility” for whatever happened and happens :-)

    • Tim,

      I have certainly done things of which I am not proud, including participating in this sort of “gang-up” on others in the Hole, and yes, it was more than once. It was all that 100 people, myself included, did all day for months on end. It’s why I said it was like being in the Hole.

      Whether you should feel sorry or not is up to you. I am not asking for anyone to feel sorry for me. But on the other hand, I also dont feel that I am “effect” of the activities of Miscavige. The people I do feel sorry for are the people in the world like Miscavige — they can dish it out but can’t confront any sort of reciprocal flow. Thay are truly people to pity as they are imprisoned in their own traps.

      As for Marty and I creating a Frankenstein monster, I dont think we can claim sole credit for any monster, and I can assure you that if he or I were calling the shots currently, the insanities you see rolling out on a daily basis wouldnt be happening. A slew of perjured affidavits (which will someday come back to haunt those people and DM), SP “Declares” that arent distributed but are held and “shown” to people for fear they will be posted on the Internet (the purpose of an SP Declare Issue is to INFORM people), nutty “confrontations” that can only backfire, wind-up Chuckie dolls sent to attack TV reporters on national TV, and a lot of other equally idiotic, off-policy and downright stupid things that are helping to destroy Scientology.

      But you be the judge of whether things are better or worse with Marty and I no longer in the Church. They claim we were the source of all evil.

      Karma? I dont know. Maybe its simply that we feel responsible for doing something about it. We could have walked away and done nothing.

      • “As for Marty and I creating a Frankenstein monster, I dont think we can claim sole credit for any monster, and I can assure you that if he or I were calling the shots currently, the insanities you see rolling out on a daily basis wouldnt be happening.”

        1. In the above comment of mine, did I not use the word “help” in my reference to your and Marty’s role in the monster?

        2. Despite you and Marty being two of the top guys in the church of scientology, are you saying that in the last 20-30 years you and Marty Rathbun never once made a decision on your own or “called a shot”?

      • Mike, taking responsibility and trying to correct it by actions are definitely good karma! :)
        It is great that you’ve recognised what’s going on. Only this matters now.

    • I haven’t seen anything that Marty or Mike have written wherein they beg for anyone’s sympathy or cry out that they are victims. Much to the contrary, really.

      Those who have shared their empathy for Mike at having to be on the receiving end of this are giving it because they are good people who don’t like seeing others being tormented like this because it is wrong.

      I believe your use of the word ‘karma’ is as much of a twisting of the concept as DM and his ilk twist and pervert the concept of the overt-motivator sequence to cave people in, as well as justify doing stuff like this. It is using the tech to invalidate and push in anchor points. Hinduism, like Scientology, is intended to help bring people UP the tone scale, so any application of it that doesn’t do that is frankly a perversion.

    • Sit down Tim H.

      You’re not auditing anyone here, and Scientology tech is perfectly capable of handling *similars of your own* — and by that I mean * handle* them once and for good then move on.

      It is an inane trick you are pulling and here is the trick:
      to divert and excuse something happening *today* by pointing the finger of blame to others *who in no way caused it* and say “well, why do you protest … you done did something like that yourself.”

      If this was the ground by which we nurture and govern ourselves, no one would have the right to protest transgressions.

      No, Tim, this is only a trick you’re using. You’re like the CLOWN at a rodeo except you don’t have the bull by the horns. The Bull is the Truth. and the truth is out and on a rampage.

      Of course Marty and Mike called shots when they were on post as executives. That’s what executives do.

      Are they CAUSE for the insanity that happened in that parking lot?

      WOW … They are very able and amazing beings, but i think their effects are evidenced as quite the contrary.

      So put your finger away. Not only is it rude to point, you are kicking the cat. Go fix your tires.

      • Theo Sismanides

        Veritas, I like the sanity level emanating from your mind. You can definitely differentiate and put things in HIGH order. I am happy you are here, jumping in on important things like this one. Cudos to you!!

    • Tim H,
      Get a life.
      Respectfully.
      Eileen

  126. The whole thing reminds me of the scene in The Thing when the monster finally comes out during the famous blood test scene…

  127. Hi Mike! Thank you for your account. You are a great guy! I’m waiting very much for the BBC program.
    Where is it possible to find the original policies of RPF and Snow White?

  128. There’s only one process I would use on that “Gang of Seven”:

    “From where could you communicate to a real Scientologist?”

    Just say that to them and watch their circuits blow.

    BTW, DM is beyond a micro-manager, he’s a “nano-manager”, which by definition, is a thousand times worse than a micro-manager.

  129. Kathy Braceland

    Mike, you are one cool cat.

  130. plainoldthetan

    Jeff: I think you’re referring to HCO PL 5 April 1965 I HANDLING THE SUPPRESSIVE PERSON, THE BASIS OF INSANITY 4:82. “For treating a person “the same as” a suppressive person when he or she is not only adds to the confusion. One treats a real suppressive person pretty rough. One has to handle the bank.”

    Of course, DM is all embroiled in HANDLING SUPPRESSIVE PERSONS at the cost of his own sanity.

  131. Mr.Rinder,

    You stated in your above comments:

    “As for Marty and I creating a Frankenstein monster, I dont think we can claim sole credit for any monster”

    1. Who is trying to give you and Marty sole credit?

    Then you stated in your above comment: “In the above comment of mine, I did use the word “help” — deliberately.”

    Could you please show me where you used the word “help”? I could not find it.

    I then asked you: “Despite you and Marty being two of the top guys in the church of scientology, are you saying that in the last 20-30 years you and Marty Rathbun never once made a decision on your own or “called a shot”?”

    You then said: “Are you serious?”

    2. Have I given any indications that I was joking?

    Here’s one last question for you if you are up to it:

    3. Do you or Marty Rathbun have any information about David Miscavige that could be used to put him in jail?

    • I’m up to it.

      1. You are
      2. Yes, by your question
      3. Yes

      Now, a question for you:

      Do you feel I owe you answers to your questions?

      And another one:

      Why?

      • Mike said: “Do you feel I owe you answers to your questions?”

        My answer: No

        If you don’t want to answer any of the questions I put up in the comments of Marty’s blog, you don’t have to but since I know you are a man of truth, why would you not want to?

        I asked the following question above: “Do you or Marty Rathbun have any information about David Miscavige that could be used to put him in jail?”

        Mike Rinder said: “yes”.

        Ok, that’s good. :-)

        Since I know that you and Marty Rathbun are courageous big beings with the goal of saving Scientology, mankind and the planet from David Miscavige’s mismanagement and wouldn’t think for a second of putting your own necks over saving Scientology and mankind, why have you not already gone to the authorities and gotten him arrested?

        • Tim H, you watch too many movies. The real world doesn’t work like that. In present time, the carping, anonymous critics of Mike and I are a complete distraction from justice being served. At the end of the day, we will persevere despite them.

    • Tim H, Here’s some questions for you. Have you ever read Science of Survival? If so, have you ever wondered about the characteristic of obsession with taking things so literally? As far as your questions are concerned, I invite you to read the blog from the beginning; as for me, I’ve answered them over and over again.

      • Marty said: “Here’s some questions for you. Have you ever read Science of Survival?”

        Answer: Yes. ( It was a good book )

        Marty said: “If so, have you ever wondered about the characteristic of obsession with taking things so literally?”

        Not since I read the book. Why do you bring up the subject?

        Marty said: “As far as your questions are concerned, I invite you to read the blog from the beginning;”

        What makes you think I haven’t already?

        Marty said: “as for me, I’ve answered them over and over again.”

        What have you answered over and over again? The questions I asked Mike Rinder?

        • “what makes you think I haven’t already (read the blog from beginning to end)?” Because of the nature of your questions. They’ve been asked and answered.

    • You come across as a troll, trying to stir the pot and create trouble.

      Go back to your Dwarf. (That’s assuming you’re not him.) Although judging by your last question asking if Mike & Marty have the goods on DM, you just might be him……in the midst of a never ending fit of paranoia.

      • All I did was ask a few questions.

        If Mike Rinder and Marty Rathbun are seated in the truth then they should be able to stand up to questions, don’t you agree?

        Questions are the core of auditing, are they not?

        Questions cause one to look and looking leads to knowing and space.

        If you are interested in my allegiance, I suggest you read my blog or my earlier comments on this blog. My true allegiance is to the truth, wherever it may lead.

        • Tim H, in general yeah. Let’s start with having you identify yourself. If you want to reference auditing tech, let’s start with a little Pre-sessioning.

      • Tim H If you’re looking for Truth, the roads Blame and Regret won’t get you there.

        Tim H

        If Mike Rinder and Marty Rathbun are seated in the truth then they should be able to stand up to questions, don’t you agree?

        LOL!! Marty and Mike have been standing up to more than questions and are creating with a lion’s share of courage and integrity internationally.

        Meanwhile, you’re slithering around with “questions” that drip innuendo accusations and reproach. And you call that being on the side of Truth? Maybe Truth’s cousin …named Bias.

        Your smug comment about ” karma” cinched it for me.

        1) They have wonderful lives
        2) Karma is not punishment … misuse of the term such as you did, to lord superiority and lord hellfire … has given it a bad (undeserved) name.

        Karma is embodied in the Lotus flower — which is both a seed and a flower at once. Cause and Effect.

        It does not condemn. It is the process, when tendered under ruthless Love and Wisdom, by which we achieve our evolution.

        Your behavior and misuse of the word “Karma” is similar to DMs abuse of Scientology. The purpose of the tech is *not* to stick people in their past, to control them by their transgressions, nor is it to punish or instill fear, abuse remorse, nor create introverted apprehension.

        I recommended you take a look at what you’re seated in, Tim H.

      • Marty

        By turning the argument in a subjective attack you are ceding the point to the claimant. There are many valid reasons for maintaining anonymity, as I am sure you are aware. But I wonder why a person’s identity is relevant to Truth. If it is not truth, then apply Logic and dismantle the thinking so as to prove the fallacy.

        You have been challenged: if you have evidence that could put DM in jail then lets stop this agony now and bring an end to the suffering endured by children.

        Please, I beg you.

      • Marty

        If you must have a name, here’s one: Shawn Lonsdale. I’m sure Rinder can fill you in on the details. If you’re asking an existential question, I know who I am not.

        While we play these games, how many children will be hurt by Co$ today, tomorrow and the day after that – what can you do to bring their suffering to an end?

      • Theo Sismanides

        Blip and Tim H.,

        You guys, coming in here, wanting to get answers and not just stirring up trouble, should reveal your identities, otherwise we take it you are trolls.

        Any question can be answered and you got answers. Now can you answer our question of who are you?

        This game of covered identities is for those who have something to hide and are basically afraid to speak as themselves. What are your reasons for not unveiling your identities?

        I personally would not want to waste mine and anybody else’s time with just a covered identity and if I really wanted to talk I would talk for ME, identity unveiled.

        So, you wanna ask questions, you need to answer questions too. Who are you?

      • Theo Sismanides

        Blip, the person you are naming is dead since 2008. What is your problem in life? Why are you lying? Do you need some special care or attention, dear?

        Do you lack some true affection in your life? We call it affinity. But in order to get affinity by somebody even a stranger to you from Greece you must be sincere, my dear, and not act as a teenager who wants to waste people’s time when we try to get something done.

        What part do you have in this game and why aren’t you sincere about your name? Why do you have to hide? Is this your game? Hiding?

        If this is your game go play somewhere else. And don’t talk about the children who are going to be hurt by C of M. At least they are not going to end up into drugs or anarchy like it happens in your society and to your children. So, don’t worry about children, they are somehow OK in the C of M. At least they are safe. I have lived in the States and I know how unsafe it is for a child to grow up there. Even the C of M is not the first to blame on that.

        So children is not the first danger we are trying to hanlde here. The first danger is Man’s 7th dynamic if you know about that. His spirituality, that’s all we are taking care of, here. Don’t get us mixed with too many things.

        By the way another question to you. Where do you live? Which country at least.

        So confront real life and reason. You are better than Snow White who is definitely a troll or at best a very miseducated Scientologist (yes, this can happen, too), you are smart so just get in communication.

        Otherwise you make me think that you only probably met force, misunderstandings and chaos in your life and I can sympathize with that. Scientology can help you with this but you have to want affection and not be bitter or too secretive.

        Come on, all we asked is who you are and you are giving us a name of a dead journalist. Do you think we are stupid or we don’t have anything better than google Shawn Lonsdale and find out it’s a dead person? You then give me the right to ask you what is your problem? Do you feel forgotten? Or is hiding better for you anyway?

        So enough said. I think you get the point. Snow White is much more respectful now since the very first days he/she would visit this site. The same is going to happen to you with Scientology. If you ever want to actually start having some real comm with strangers. It’s called manners. Takes you long ways in life, more than you can really think at this period of time in this body of your’s.

      • Moving Forward

        Theo,

        I wanted to first say that I have a lot of respect for you; you stood up 10 years ago and showed your personal integrity by standing up to the perversions of the tech that you were seeing, and you got declared as thanks.

        I agree with a lot of what you say, but have to respectfully disagree with how you responded to BLiPs ‘save the children’ plea (my comment here is that Marty is sticking his neck out every day to right the wrongs in the Church… you really think he’s holding back on something that could immediately end abuses of children??? give me a break).

        “So children is not the first danger we are trying to hanlde here. The first danger is Man’s 7th dynamic if you know about that. His spirituality, that’s all we are taking care of, here. Don’t get us mixed with too many things. ”

        Sadly, I think this viewpoint is just a continuation of the reasonableness within the church of abuses and perversion of the tech. We sacrifice our 7th dynamic if we allow our other dynamics to be neglected, if we allow abuses on those dynamics. Children are important and there have been some real crimes committed by the C of M relating to the treatment of children. Just read Janela Webster’s story on scientology-cult.com. The ends to not justify the means.

      • Moving Forward

        This comment and the one you made above in relation to the twisting of the tech has helped bring me to a cognition. You are right: my approach is unhelpful to the wider cause. I made my main point in my very first comment on this thread and should have shut up at that stage.

        As you said, Marty would end the suffering tomorrow if he could. Accordingly, I shall back down on this and other points and reframe any further comments with a view to the overall objective of bringing an end to the DM regime.

        I guess I just get a little frustrated when I see the same faulty thinking that goes on inside reflected here on the outside. If its my own thinking that is faulty then please point it out. As you have done.

        Marty asks who am I? I am guest here who has behaved badly and, for that, I apologise.

      • Theo Sismanides

        Moving Forward,

        Understood and you are right on the dynamics. Actually I overstated it on children not being the first area to handle. I am in full agreement and I know of the bad and sad things happening on children, the first issue being enforced Abortions and of course their mistreatment, low havingness, neglect, harsh conditions, deprivation of liberty etc.

        I was just trying to get Blip see that maybe he shouldn’t attack Marty and us like that because we are not handling the whole issue… tomorrow.

        I am glad to see Blip now understands some things. It’s not that I don’t want people to have disagreements. It’s the way they express them and making us wrong. I have given 15 years of my life to Scientology on staff. Others have given more so I am respectful to that.

        I see Blip understands and now I am happy. I don’t want him to conform, I want him to make his voice stronger on children. But it is not Marty or Mike or even us anymore who are perpetuating the crimes on children. We all understand this.

        And of course I never cared for the cause over dead fetuses or deprived children. I hope this clarifies it for all of us including Blip.

      • blip, I hope you see this, I don’t reallyunderstand these reply buttons.
        That was a very nice apology! I just wanted to make sure you got acknowledged. Yes, sometimes I too have dissagreements here, but this blog is so important to the big picture, I try to back it up with as much theta as possible. If I feel like lashing out, (as I did with your earlier posts) I give it some time, cool down, and come back later and re-read. Often I find I have entirely misduplicated someone’s intention, as is the case with your posts.
        It took a sane being to have the cognition you had.
        Do well.
        Beeb

      • Moving Forward

        BLiP,

        Thanks for that. In the words of one of my favorite writers/thinkers:

        It were not best that we should all think alike; it is difference of opinion that makes horse races.

        - Mark Twain

        Theo — it’s all good. I totally see where you were coming from, just wanted to clarify on that one point.

  132. Oy Vey!
    Such an obvious power play attempt by DM on you Mike.
    “Look what I can do. I can make your daughter, ex-wife and brother come out and attack you. I hope it hurts like hell!”

  133. Clearwater Lawyer

    watching eyes,
    You are probably about the troll.

  134. Wow. I really thought that by now these sorts of things would have been knocked off. I mean I was hoping that they were. Having experienced my share of episodes like this on and off the RPF. These are the reasons I left in the first place. I am happy to hear that it was all recorded and I look forward to seeing that on BBC America. I hope they air it!

  135. nonscientologist

    Hi Marty,

    As a future thread topic could you consider comparing how the present free zone and independant scientogists operate as compared to:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/christianity/subdivisions/baptist_1.shtml

    I think the contrasts may be interesting. The Baptists are the most decentralized of the large christian denominations. (Though very dogmatic on the Bible being taken literally, which can be troublesome in the old testiment which occasionally contradicts itself)

    • NonScientologist, we are independent Scientologists. We are not interested in becoming Baptists. Many Christians aren’t that good role models. Christians had 2000 years times to end war, insanity and criminality. We, the Scientologists will do that now.

      Google Baptists and children… That’s not where independent Scientologists wanna go.

  136. Pingback: Top Posts — WordPress.com

  137. Re: this incident, I’m caught being crying and laughing. To me, the most interesting part of this though was Mike’s brother, an OT8, saying he needed permission from someone to meet with his brother!!!! We talk about the Bridge to Total Freedom – FREEDOM. If one does not consider that he has the freedom to choose who to communicate with (not even mentioning that it is a loved family member), WHAT KIND OF FREEDOM HAS HIS CASE GAIN BROUGHT HIM? What part of Scientology Axiom #2 is he free to do? (and if he is NOT free to postulate, have an opinion, etc, then HOW in ANY sense is he an “operating” thetan????)

    The issue I wrestle with is how we as Scientologists (especially those of us who have extensive training/auditing and tech experience) have allowed ourselves to fall into the same traps and third dynamic dramatizations that we set out to handle.

  138. To Tim H.,

    You said all you did was ask a few questions. Then you ask, “Questions are the core of auditing, are they not?”
    News Flash: This is a blog, not an auditing session.

    I’m not interested in your allegiance although it’s pretty obvious. For some reason, yawn, you’re trying to divert attention from the Dwarf’s failed escapade onto your phoney interest in Mike & Marty’s answers to your questions. Anything to get people’s attention off the insanity of the event outside the doctor’s office.

    Go away.

    • Shouldn’t you solve this with Tim with more communication instead of giving him the command to go away ? Isn’t that in your beliefs ARC broken ?

      • No. In my world it’s called cutting an entheta line.

      • That’s right Cat Daddy. Asking questions is OK as long as those questions don’t try to get to the truth one doesn’t want exposed. When they do, they tell you to go away.

      • I have just red your original post. Sounds a bit like you saying “You pulled it in”. not really a great incentive to answer anything.

      • Tim H

        Asking questions is OK as long as those questions don’t try to get to the truth one doesn’t want exposed. When they do, they tell you to go away.

        LOLOL! Once again, you’re kicking the cat instead of fixing your flat tire.

        Tim H
        You were told to go away by one person (not THEY) — and it wasn’t for asking questions, it was for slithering in with a pretend agenda to “get at the truth”.

        Your “questions” are not sincere.

        You don’t do “Coy” well at all. #FAIL And if you’re a man (even though Character is genderless) #DOUBLEFAIL

      • The only thing Mike Rinder “pulled in” — if I may evaluate and state my personal opinion — is international media being present and witness and there to record — unbeknownst to the perpetrator who planned the operation — a psychotic stalking and assault by executives of the Corporation Scientology, which is so unbelievably hyena cowardly and heinous that finally, in broad daylight, in a parking lot, the spotlight of Truth has illuminated and documented.

        WOW!!!! ✩ ✩ ***GOD COULD NOT HAVE PLANNED, PULLED OFF or PULLED IN JUSTICE FOR TRUTH ANY BETTER***✩ ✩

    • I never stated that this was an auditing session.

      I made the statement “Questions are the core of auditing, are they not?” to show the power of questions and that the processing of asking questions is the precursor to getting to the truth, like in auditing. I never stated that this was an auditing session.

      They ask questions in court don’t they? Why? To get to the truth and court isn’t an auditing session either.

      And no, the truth won’t go away.

      • Dude, you’re not in session and you’re not in court.

        You’re right about one thing though; the truth won’t go away. Here are a few truths for you:
        1. The event outside the doctor’s office was sheer madness.
        2. Whoever arranged it is psychotic.
        3. The foul, screaming audio was recorded by the telephone call.
        4. We’re all waiting to see what the BBC does with this audio.
        5. The whole thing backfired.

      • Tim H

        And no, the truth won’t go away.

        That’s for sure. It’s waiting for you.

      • Tim H = solid citizen asking solid questions.

      • To everyone here being hooked by “Tim H,” here’s a question for you: “What question from a troll could you confront?” Not answer, but just sit there and confront as it appears on your screen. It’s a very liberating process.

    • “For some reason, yawn, you’re trying to divert attention from the Dwarf’s failed escapade onto your phoney interest in Mike & Marty’s answers to your questions. Anything to get people’s attention off the insanity of the event outside the doctor’s office.”

      If Mike Rinder goes to the authorities with what he knows about David Miscavige, David Miscavige will go to jail and the insanities you speak of will end, they will end now.

      Why does he not do that?

      As soon as he gets a copy of the audio of the incident infront of the Doctor’s office, I’ll be the first one to put up on my youtube channel and on my blog.

  139. I’ve seen posts like Tim H.’s on Marty’s and other Scientology-related blogs and boards. Those posts often follow a similar script:

    1. Past equals future.
    2. Redemption is impossible.
    3. Amends are irrelevant.
    4. We cannot learn from our mistakes.
    5. We cannot get better.
    6. Conditions are permanent.
    7. Change is not an option.
    8. Understanding and compassion are for suckers.
    9. Hate and revenge are the only sane responses.
    10. There is no hope.

    When I’m at my best (not always), I try to follow a different script:

    1. My past is not my future.
    2. I can be redeemed and can forgive others who seek redemption.
    3. Amends take courage, but can heal even deep wounds.
    4. I learn from my mistakes and from others’.
    5. I can learn and become more able.
    6. Change for the better is possible, although it usually takes hard work.
    7. Life itself is change.
    8. Hate and revenge are instinctive to those who have known little kindness.
    9. Understanding and compassion are available to everyone.
    10. I create my own hope.

    Just Me

  140. Tim H,

    You are probably a loser that spends half of his 24 hour day on the internet, and thse type of individuals have nothing better to do.

    If you really want to keep commenting on these blogs, you either should reveal your identity or just stop wasting your time and tell us straight up what your anger/BPC is. Straight up equals not beating around the bush. Maybe you are with snowhite. (though you are a bit better than her/him?)

    Come on please.

    Of course the other alternative is just come clean and say you are an OSA plant.

    Get with it, man.

  141. If this guy is a troll it won’t matter what anyone says to him, so it seems pointless to answer him.

  142. Tim H,

    Now I have questions for you:

    I have no idea how old you are, whether you hold a post in life, ie: in a company, as a partner or a father/mother.
    Have you ever done anything wrong in your life? Have you physically or emotionally upset anyone in this life time?

    Have you been hurt (physically and emotionally) by anyone?

    Have you ever made any mistakes in your life?

    I am 100% sure you have.

    But, Have you ever taken responsibility for your mistakes and corrected your wrong doings by making amends as Mike and Marty have done and are still doing?

    If you’d ever had the ability to see the faults within yourself and would have taken responsibility to correct them, you would have NEVER attacked Marty and Mike for their past mistakes.

    You are only pointing finger to others. Look at those other 4 fingers of yours. Whom are they pointing at? Of course, YOU!

    FIRST ask yourself what kind of errors Tim has made in his life time that he has not taken responsibility for? And then go and correct your own errors. Depending on how responsible you are?

    I bet this will keep you busy for a while.

    • Tim H….Congratualtions, you’ve just met Truth

      Hello Truth! I give Truth BIG THETA SMOOCHES

    • Maybe Tim H has an MU or two?

      Give me a sentence with the word ‘I’m’ or ‘I am’ in it…

      That a boy!

      Now give me a sentence using the word ‘obnoxious’.

      hello? wacky-wacky… Tim, your eyes are drooping. You still with me?

    • Truth: Not making light of what you say, but
      “Look at those other 4 fingers of yours…” I had to LOL at this because my children use this as a stable datum! It’s such a good one, especially when dealing with brats and bullies they encounter occasionally.

  143. Don’t feed the trolls! I can use my giant can of “Troll Spray” on them:

    http://img220.imageshack.us/img220/1580/258trollspray.jpg

  144. No one has asked why DM hasn’t given the order for the posse of seven to attack Marty.

  145. Way to go Mike..It just goes to show that timing is everything..I cant wait to see the bbc special and watch these losers doing the backstroke, digging the hole deeper with more lies, this will be a tough one to talk their way out of…On a positive note I’m glad that you got to see yr family …I wouldn’t be surprized if Cathy scratched her own self in an attempt to make you look bad…you know how they operate….keep up the good work…and Tim H why are you even on this site?? if we wanted to hear more lies we’d just join yr stupid church!!

  146. * What seems to be missed in the latest comments of this trail, is that DM and the 7s successfuly chewed and ate the BAIT that Mike set up for them. A little clue = the ‘marketting trailer’ of the “event” was posted here a bit beforehand. They RAN straight into the ambush. :-)

    The purpose of this ‘operating target’, part (b), is to disprove the C of M’s allegations that “Mike refuses to communicate to his family.” [part (a) was presented in video form last week]

    The ‘old dog’ knows his tricks very well, and USES them. He is a pro at this, people! There is NO blaming or victimizing or invitation of sympathy with Mike’s report. Just “IS-what-IS” – it’s a REPORT.

    :- ) Once again Mike J, Very Well Done !

    One observation in regards to the position/location of the turmoil = From chapter 9 of The Art of War by Sun-Tzu:

    “On level ground,

    “Occupy easy terrain.
    “Keep high land to the right and rear:
    “Keep death in front (FSO + mob)
    “And life to the rear. (Doctor’s office)
    “These are positions on Level Ground”

    As to the overall Major Target of the Dead Agent-ing, a passage of Chapter 3 of The Art of War is put into practice very well:

    “Ultimate excellence lies NOT in winning every battle but in defeating the enemy without ever fighting. The Highest form of warfare is to attack STRATEGY itself.” – Sun-Tzu

    Just some objective observations.
    PackMan

  147. Bob J, ;-) LOL . I love the Troll Spray idea!

  148. Jeezus! I haven’t read all the posts yet. Just wanted to say how thoroughly disgusting such actions are, in broad daylight, in a public place. For god’s sake, haven’t they any sense left at all? And, some recently have told ME that I am now on the Dark Side??????!! Hello!!

    Mike,
    Glad you and Christie are alright. But, it must have been a bit tricky seeing your brother and daughter under such circumstances. Another crime goes on the dm list, he sure has a lot of black marks in his book.
    And how very funny it will be for them to hear that played back on the BBC….rotflmao!

    Eileen

  149. Lunamoth and Veritas, you are too cool.

  150. Cat,

    Re: Flag Order 3434 Rehabilation Project Force,
    thanks for cortecting me- it was not 1975, but it was 1974, almost swear by D/L it was the month of February.
    Just before the BDAY Game of March 1974, just after the Alex Sibersky ” Clear America Crusade”.

  151. From : Mexico
    to Mike Rinder an Marty
    You are an example of courage and determination. ¡Son unos cabrones!!. VWD!!!
    We are with you.

  152. Mike- Having seen the GO of old remove a few EDs in our org (early 80s), I had the idea that OSA might be able to handle dm.

    I guess I should have considered that if that had been possible you probably would have done it instead of leaving.

    How does dm exercise his control – does he use thug security guys to enforce someone going to the (hole, RPF, etc.) or what? What would happen to the person who stood up to him, especially if the person was capable of standing up to a physical attack and inclined to defend himself?

  153. Hi Penny K,

    Thank you for introducing yourself with your real name. I checked your website. You must have lots of affinity for Persian art. I love those rugs.

    Hope to read your story on Marty’s blog soon.

  154. Though long-term critic J. Swift’s “home base” message board is one generally critical of Scientology as a practice, this contribution below recently made by him is excellent. He does come up with some real gems at times that describe the existing situation very well. Hope you will let this to go through Marty and allow the cross posting. I think it relevant to this post here on Moving on Up…. (BTW, hasn’t this post ‘Miscavige Meltdown’ instigated the highest number of comments to date on your blog?)

    J. Swift, April 25th 2010:
    “I have staked out a position for now that is generally supportive of the Independents.

    I do not have to agree with any of Scientology’s doctrines to support and empower the idea that all people should leave the Church of Scientology immediately.

    Those two things are separate in my mind:

    A. Leaving CoS

    B. Scientology’s Belief System

    I functionally separate them because Scientology’s Belief System does not really work that well outside of CoS. When all of the surveillance cameras, EO’s, regges, threats, and peer pressure are gone, Scientologists who leave CoS start reading Thomas Paine, the biography of Malcom X, and other great books. They soon realize that Scientology’s Belief System is not exactly the cat’s ass so to speak. The freedom to think for yourself and post on the internet is much more enjoyable than reading the Basics in a course room or paying money to do clay demos.

    What I am judging the Indies on is deeds and not words. I see people leaving CoS via the Indies and the river appears to be turning into a raging torrent. I have met people who have recently left CoS and they are “not in good case shape” as one might say. Hopefully, this torrent will turn into a mass exodus as the shitstorm surrounding DM intensifies.

    The magnitude of DM’s disastrous mismanagement is becoming increasingly evident to even the most hardcore Scientologists. More and more Scientologists are leaving CoS for the simple reason that DM was entrusted with so much and mismanaged it so badly. Once Scientologists can admit that DM has horribly mismanaged CoS, they can next begin to confront his lies and abuse. Suddenly, they are shocked: WTF!

    This is probably the #1 hardcore Scilon cog in the world right now: WTF did DM do to the Church?

    Scientologists were so busy earning money to give to IAS during the past few years that they fell asleep at the wheel. My guess is that they believed all of the PR, were in denial, or were trapped somewhere between PR and Denial. IMO, that horrendously painful region of consciousness between PR and Denial is where the group bank exists in CoS.

    The critics have been trying to warn Scientologists about DM for years and years, but of course we were SP’s and haters. Now the Indies sound like critics. Now they are saying the same things critics have been saying for decades.

    *****
    In the past few years Scientologists have dutifully donated to IAS when asked. They have given and given. Yet it was never enough. DM just kept squeezing and squeezing them like some small, yet powerful, anaconda. There is this term: Donation Fatigue. Look it up. Many Scientologists departing CoS have donation fatigue. They gave until it hurt and then gave more. And for what? So that DM could purchase Ideal Orgs that he rented back to the people who paid for them? That is plain and simple bullshit. It is cruelty on so many levels. The concept behind paying for a building is to eliminate monthly mortgage payments. Scientologists do not want to pay for an Org and then pay rent on it. What was DM thinking? Did DM think Scientologists would just lay down and keep taking his cruelty and abuse?

    DM is engaged in a pattern of self-aggrandizement and self-deification using other people’s money. Scientologists are sick and tired of DM’s bullshit and mismanagement. DM in turn is pumping out these insane adjective-laden PR pieces that are chock full of his hyperventilating lunacy.

    DM is the boy who cried “Emergency!” once too often and now no one is listening to him.

    There is still much, much more that the Independents need to address. However, this is a War of Attrition against CoS. The Indies are attriting many high level OT’s and opinion leaders out of CoS.

    The trend is good, but I remain skeptical.

    I look at the glass as being half full of Kool-Aid.”
    ref: http://tinyurl.com/23xap5j

    • martyrathbun09

      Mickey, you’ve let us know a lot about yourself in lobbying for this position. Thanks.

      • What position? Either I’m thick in the head or a bit vague in your content.

      • Mickey,

        Speaking purely for myself, it’s clear to me that J. Swift is against ANY form of organized Scientology, ever. Sure he pays lip service to peoples rights to their own religion — but only as long as Scientologists stay at home reading books and don’t ever organize, if that happens it’s back to his “war against Scientology”.

        Anyone, has the right to stand up, protest and take action against any form of abuse, in or outside Scientology and I applaud that and always will. But if such action includes stigmatizing or characterizing a group of people or a whole religion then I say that is no better than DM.

    • Mickey,
      Taking the first paragraph and this comment by J. Swift “… Scientology’s Belief System does not really work that well outside of CoS. ” OK, that’s plainly, well, gibberish.

      First fallacy, it’s not a ‘belief system’. Scientology is a methodology of knowing. When one knows, it’s not belief.

      Second, I did a Contact Assist on a non-Scientologist the other day and there wasn’t a CofS anywhere near him. The somatic blew nonetheless.

      So, since I am a Scientologist, I apply the methods and they work. I don’t need someone’s approval to do this, I don’t need them to ‘believe’, I don’t need an evaluation of good/bad, I can do and observe.

      J. Swift is as far off the facts as one could be. His is an exercise of ‘logic’. A concatenation of evaluations that arrive where he started, and all just a shuffle of pictures, one held up next to another, putting into play others and coming up with a final. It’s a picture, not an observation of present time. His is a ‘belief’, not knowing.

      He’s unaware of this. But that’s because he’s not looking, he’s ‘listening’.

      • Goodness Jim, I think we are going to have to start calling you Professor, that was good, really good, really really good.

      • haydn,
        Mssr. Paine’s admiration is very much a valuable particle :-)

        In keeping with my over the top insouciance, possibwee, Pwofessor might be appwopwiate.

        It’s better than some of the epithets I’ve managed in this life.

      • Jim, you wrote…

        “…it’s not a ‘belief system’. Scientology is a methodology of knowing. When one knows, it’s not belief.”

        Your statement is pretty much how I have always viewed Scn and, in one variation or another, described it to others. However, now that I am exterior (to the degree that I am) to my being ‘in’ Scn experience, I now have a different view.

        Scn, in my current view, is not singularly a methodology of knowing nor is it singularly a belief system. Instead, it is a blend of both. And the belief system, generally speaking (there are of course exceptions) is critical to the methodology of knowing being able to occur.

        I came into Scn by way of reading DMSMH (see my story here: http://scnstories.ning.com/profiles/blogs/the-book ) And while reading Dn I continually made personal observations throughout my environment that corroborated what LRH was describing. Thus I came to know. But…I purchased the book because I believed that it might have within it answers that I needed.

        When I finally arrived at the local CoS Portland Mission, I did not know anything about Scn. But, once I entered that world, it seemed that anyone I encountered would readily, eagerly begin giving me all manner of evaluations regarding Scn and what Scn could do for me. And, all I had to do to avail myself of the incredible results of this tech was to sign up for the Comm course. So I did. And I did so because of the underlying “belief system” in play. I had to believe that by taking this step, doing this course, I would become more able.

        The belief system of Scn is in heavy play as people find their way into the religion and the know part is light. But as one progresses on the Bridge the know part gains more and more weight as the belief system becomes lighter and lighter.

        The only terminal in the overall system of Scn that consistently did not incorporate the belief system were those who audited me while in session and those who supervised me while on course. That noted, anywhere else within the organization, the belief system was in full play 24/7. And it was especially used by the reges and recruiters. To get me to a point where I was willing to go out and confront what I had to confront to pull of some of the reg cycles I pulled off….I really had to BELIEVE before I could KNOW.

        The organization of Scn would not be able to work without having a strong belief system. But Scn is most certainly a tool by which a belief system can be gradiently dismantled and replaced with KNOW. Under the rule of DM, though, it appears to me that Scn is being used to suppress the KNOW and relies solely on the belief system in order to make its advances. For example: Ideal Orgs can only come into being because of a strong and active belief system. If people were operating on KNOW the Ideal Org idea would have never been able to manifest.

      • Monte,
        You note “The only terminal in the overall system of Scn that consistently did not incorporate the belief system were those who audited me while in session and those who supervised me while on course.”

        Well, the rest of it, the OEC, regges, promo, the lines and terminals, all of it, is so the above paragraph and that experience can and does occur. The more that occurs, the less one has to rely on others’ evaluation. The less one ‘believes’ the more one is. Being is observing, believing is accepting an evaluation as I am using these terms here.

      • Isn’t it feasible that while a Scientologist, say we call him John, knows that he knows, another person’s view of John is that John believes that he knows?

      • Heather G,
        Careful, you’ll be studying the theory of Three Universes and Certainty. (Hint, the Journal of Scientology, 16-G).

    • It seems as though J. Swift is conflicted in his thoughts. He encourages one to leave and then suggests the independents aren’t all that successful because we are not in the courserooms reading the basics.

      All the detours the church has taken from making Scientologists and making auditors did result in people leaving (and hopefully a mass exodus will occur).

      I for one know the tech works. I have had case gain and once you know what it’s like operationg without a chunk of case impinging on your thoughts and actions, it’s hard to invalidate its workability. No amount of doom and gloom nor fire and brimstone is going to convince me otherwise.

      The tech is something one applies in life, not just in session. I haven’t stepped into an org in four years, but I still study and apply the tech. I know where to go do get my next session and although training may be trickier, it is not a problem.

      I caution you not to invalidate the abilities of thetans. We are not put off by MEST. DM has destroyed the church route but he can’t destroy the tech itself. There are too many people who find it workable and who will continue to create its availability.

      One of the interesting things that I have had the opportunity to observe is that people want the ideal scene. When approached about the idea of contributing to its creation, they sometimes balk. Suddenly what appeared to be a hot item has just cooled off drastically. It only takes one or two people willing to take responsibility for that creation for it to come in to being. When something has a worthwhile purpose it can’t help but attract the energy of others. Thus it grows. There are already people taking responsibility in the field. and it WILL grow…just watch it.

    • Monte,

      You put into words beautifully what was not yet fully formed in my own mind. Describing scientology as a belief system has never been correct, no matter how many times I heard it (and it was always being said by people who really know nothing about scientology). Yet, it’s not entirely correct to say that it does not contain “beliefs” at all. Scientology itself doesn’t, but the EXPERIENCE of scientology on the third dynamic certainly does. I was required to believe many things that I did not in fact KNOW in order to be a member of the group.

      Thank you very much for teasing out those two concepts and giving me a clarified viewpoint on this. I love the dimension such discussion adds to my universe of understanding.

      And to Jim Logan, the response regarding J. Swift’s use of pictures, and his own beliefs vs. knowing, was brilliant. Sometimes you’re insight amazes me.

      • lunamoth,
        Why thankyou ma’am! Hey, remember that one from a while back on an idea substituting for a live being?

        “The more thetan you have present, the less policy you need and the better things run. Only a thetan can handle a post or a pc. All he needs is the know-how of minds as contained in Scientology. That was all he ever lacked. So, given that, sheer policy is poor stuff as it seeks to make a datum stand where a being should be. That’s the whole story of the GPM’s. So why not have live orgs?” PL 23 Oct 63 Refund Policy, Vol 3 OEC.

        Well, that’s the same sort of thing: substitution of a datum (pictures) where a being in present time observing should be.

      • lunamoth, we have Mickey to thank for this opportunity. Had he not brought the John Swift utterance to this mix chances are we would not explored this avenue of thought. And lunamoth, thank you for your further clarification…i.e., it the Scn EXPERIENCE where the belief system lies.

        This is one rich thread isn’t it? And if it wasn’t for DM I would not not sitting here submitting this comment right now. LOL

      • Jim

        Makes complete sense to me.

        That contains all the validation of theta and acknowledgment of its seniority to policy that
        dm’s interpretation/mutilation of policy omits.

  155. Tim H,
    I am wondering if some heavy petting as described in the 2D FO would help you see the world as it is.
    Try it.

  156. Tim H,
    I looked over your blog. You may want to rethink the approach here. Evaluation is the reactive mind’s conception of ‘viewpoint’. If one tends to accept another’s evaluation of fact, rather than present time observation then one has accepted an opinion as fact not observed,but told to one. The sort of ‘viewpoint’ one gets when they are knocked unconscious and others are telling them what’s going on. That’s recorded and taken as observation when it’s actually just somebody else’s evaluation. One sees as a manifestation of ‘thinking’, chewing over facsimiles and trying to understand the present by them. Observation and being in the present, extending points, attention units, and perceiving with them and knowing is different.

    For instance, you are not either Mike Rinder or Marty Rathbun and have not observed from their points of view. You have the innate ability to do so and can recover this ability. However in this instance, these questions on this thread, it appears you have not exercised that ability but rather have taken other’s evaluations of certain things. Those evaluations come across in your questions. They aren’t really questions then, they are statements, in fact they are evaluations.

    Don’t be surprised that they aren’t well received therefore.

  157. I Love Elmer Fudd! And all these Theta Bulldogs!

  158. For seekers of lurid truth:

    The subject keeps coming up here and elsewhere on the internet about the guilt of Mike and Marty. What are their crimes? Why don’t they confess? Why don’t they sacrifice themselves to bring down DM? “After all, I’m only looking for the truth,” is the common justification for the question.

    Blah, blah, blah. Gag, gag, gag.

    Most “truth” is frigging irrelevant. What you ate for breakfast and what it looked like when it came out the other end is all truth, but completely irrelevant.

    For christ’s sake, we’re in a war here, trying to salvage a subject that might very well salvage the planet. Maybe you believe that; maybe you don’t. I’m not a Scientologist, but I do. I have a great hope for the future. Things will improve. But not if we don’t do something effective.

    (And distractions never help anyone be effective. Why do you think fans jump around when an opponent is shooting free throws?)

    Now, if you’ve thoroughly studied the subject and applied it to get results, then you once believed it too. Maybe you got knocked on your ass; maybe you got royally fucked over by the organization. So what? Happened to me. Happened to most of us in one way or another.

    Or, maybe you’ve only been sitting at the computer eating Funyons and devouring all the negativity about Scientology or Tom Cruise or LRon Hubbard. (And there’s plenty.) And maybe in between side trips to youporn you take the time to write a “probing post searching for the truth.” But, having an agenda of “ecrasez l’infame,” you only promote your favorite “truths.” Fair enough, but if you’re really looking for “truth,” part of that truth is your purpose. What’s your agenda? Why not be up front? Why not tell us the truth right from the beginning. Failure to disclose all relevant information is a lie in itself.

    But fuck the truth; you really aren’t looking for truth anyway. So stop that pretense. As with your trips to youporn, mental masturbation is best done discretely, either behind closed doors by yourself or in the company of close friends rather than in public. Unless you’re getting paid, and then what the hay! But, if you’re being paid to perform, shouldn’t you mention that in your quest for truth?

    Okay, let me tell you a hard truth: when the enemy is dropping mortar rounds on your ass and their AK’s are tearing up everything around you, it probably is not the best time to turn on the brute next to you and say, “Marv, I’m convinced you raped that girl in the last village. I’m looking for the truth, now. It’s important. I think you’re guilty and I want a confession.” Repositioning your granny glasses, you wait, self-righteously, for a response.

    And it comes.

    Smack! “Shut the fuck up and shoot, dipshit!”

    Personally, I don’t care what horrible things Marty and Mike might have done in the pursuit of their jobs in Scientology. They’re putting so many rounds through the field pieces that the barrels are starting to melt. And the rest of us are able to stick our noses over the ramparts and get off a few rounds. And that smell is the wonderful scent of the enemy evacuating their bowels in retreat.

    In the future, there might well be a day of reckoning. We might all have to account for ourselves. And the question will be, “What did you do to help make things better?” Do. Not say or ask. Do. Talking is only of value if the ideas become action.

    I realize that to a small mind, pointing out the dust and debris lingering in the corners of a construction site might seem like “ferreting out the truth.” But the question isn’t how much dirt did you find, but how many boards did you cut, how many nails did you pound, how many bricks did you lay in making the blueprints a reality? We can clean up the dirt, dust and debris later.

    Whining to those doing the job accomplishes nothing. Trying to make someone wrong accomplishes nothing.

    Constructive, well-considered, and expertly applied effort will.

    So, how are you helping?

    Much love,

    Michael

    • Michael, that was excellent! It’s a keeper. Your tone that comes through the words on the page is reminiscent of Ron’s Uncle Elbert’s world renown Message to Garcia.

      http://www.birdsnest.com/garcia.htm

    • Theo Sismanides

      Absolutely brilliant Michael ! Way to write, man!!! Really enjoyed your writing style and concepts.

    • HEAR HEAR!!

    • Once Upon, Michael,
      Holy cats, talk about melted barrels!

      Looking up ‘ecrasez l’infame’ I came across something else from Voltaire; “”I made but one prayer to God. ‘Oh Lord, please make my enemies look ridiculous.’ And God granted it.”

      • And here’s another one: “If you want to make God laugh, tell Him about your hopes and dreams.”
        –Woody Allen

    • “Failure to disclose all relevant information is a lie in itself.”

    • Michael,

      You have me holding my sides in laughter whilst simultaneously cheering you on. Great picture…reminds me of Nicholson in A Few Good Men!

    • Michael, no, sorry, I don’t buy it. I had this lecture for 35 years while I was in the Church. “We’re in a war! Shut up and shoot! Don’t quibble about methods or the niceties of behavior! Just do whatever it takes to win!”

      The end does not justify the means. You either live your principles or you don’t. You either live the truth or you don’t. You either follow your principles or you don’t. There is truth. There are standards and principles. These things are not all fuzzy and “shut up about it and keep firing.”

      If you “win the war” by compromising your principles, then you lost.

      • martyrathbun09

        Jeff, I am in and out of the loop, so don’t even have time to see what you are responding to. But, regardless of the context, your comment here is one hell of a nugget of TRUTH. Thanks.

      • Jeff,

        Thank you for once again standing up for this principle.

        This is a point where many of us have made a stand in leaving the church – this is the primary point of deviation.

        The means ARE the end. We are perpetually alive in the moment, and the moment consists of what we are doing and what we are right now.

        You can’t use slavery to make the world safe for freedom. You can’t elevate the condition of mankind by obliterating the individual.

      • JEFF.

        I agree with you a hundred percent. If you lose your integrity, you begin to lose everything. Which is why I left the Church. Yet, integrity is a recognition of the actual conditions in which you find yourself. Truth is often complex. I don’t know Marty or Mike. I can only take them on face value from what I see here. (In present time.) As holds for you and me, they’ve undoubtedly done some bad things. All of it justified in their minds. I think they will admit that. I hated Mike Rinder, the public spokesman for an abomination ruining lives, spreading lies and “fair gaming” with near impunity. Do I condone any of that?

        Not for a second.

        Do I understand why they did it?

        Yep.

        Do I forgive them? Let’s just use a bit of Christian tech here (and I’m not one): yes, forgiveness is divine.

        But my forgiveness is not for them. They must walk their own path. My forgiveness is for me. I don’t want to carry the burden of hatred and anger and blame or any other negativity. Life is too full of wonder and beauty and joy.

        And that DM may have used the argument that “this is war, so every crime is justifiable,” I do not. No crime against another is justifiable. None.

        Would that stop me from blowing away someone who threatened me or my friends or family? Not in a heartbeat.

        Jeff, I love your work and greatly respect what you do. I appreciate that you have brought this counter-argument into the discussion.

        Sometimes our choices hinge on nuance. Change your view just slightly and you make a different choice. Chaos theory is full of this. You think back and maybe realize that if you had not been held up in a fender bender you would have made the plane that crashed. Is this good? Is this bad? What follows may prove the opposite.

        My argument, despite its gaudy dress, was a marriage of several ideas. 1. There is a time and place for everything. 2. If the individual is serving a great service in a difficult situation, perhaps good judgment dictates letting him or her perform that service. 3. Minor truths do not outweigh larger ones, and one should give fair judgment to all factors. 4. If your argument is, “I’m looking for the truth, then don’t hide behind a lie. 4. Whatever their past crimes, Marty and Mike are performing the great service aforementioned.

        Forgive my colorful examples. A logical argument usually fails to include emotional and intuitive arguments which are often just as valid.

        Would I seek justice against the brute in my example? I would never rest until I did. But redress and redemption take many forms. I tend to have the lawless sense of Spenser’s justice found in Robert B Parker’s work. We need law, but sometimes justice is best served outside the law. Just as truth is sometimes best served outside the confines of logic.

        As you pointed out, the one dimensional thinking that encouraged criminal behavior was wrong. One dimensional thinking is always wrong in multi-dimensional situations. If you try to level a deck by holding the level in only one direction your project will fail. You have to level every post and support and plank for all three dimensions. And you have to make your angles true.

        So, the truth of this angle? Jeff, you are absolutely right. Yet, in being right, we must also understand that the other side can be right. Sometimes both sides of a contradiction are equally right–or nearly so. And that is where astuteness of judgment comes into play.

        The end never justifies the means. The means should always set the foundation for the end. But niggling and carping serve no useful purpose in accomplishing either the means or the end.

        So, I have faith and trust in Marty and Mike. Not because I must, but because I can. Not because they are pure, but because they are impure and have tried to walk an honorable path. Many have preceded them and tried to walk that path. And failed.

        Could I offer successful arguments to refute anything I’ve said above? Sure. I could quibble the entire thing into incomprehensibility.

        Faith and trust fill my life with beauty and joy. Should I give up that pleasure for the logics and truths of cynicism? I don’t choose to.

        Do I trust Marty and Mike? Yes, because I choose to.

        Do I trust you? Same response.

        Much love,

        Michael

        ps. enjoyed the other comments and responses to what I wrote, but “time restraints dictate I clutter the world once less with babble.”

    • Moving Forward

      I agree with Jeff here and I don’t know that the analogy of war in this context is really apt. It excuses too much and has been used to excuse too much within the church.

      Lying is lying and the truth is the truth. To me, this whole movement is about confronting and exposing the truth.

      Now, that said, I don’t think that the subject at hand (the Tim H and BLiP posts) are so much about finding truth as they are about invalidation and make-wrong.

      • Moving forward,

        “I am just a poor boy
        Though my story’s seldom told
        I have squandered my resistance
        For a pocket full of mumbles such are promises
        All lies and jests
        Still a man hears what he wants to hear
        And disregards the rest”

        Cognitive dissonance is good. Exercising one’s mind is good. Exploring the possibility of truth midst the lies and half truths and irrelevant truths is good. What truth I have is embryonic at best. It grows and changes.

        In deference to the old saw about blind men and elephants: I’m exploring a toenail and the damned thing peed on me. But, being blind, I thank God for the rain while wondering why the earth smells so bad.

        Much love,

        Michael

    • Stop being whipped in wa War Frenzy, those days must be over.

  159. Opening LA Org. if this Youtube user is real Can someone make him wake up please.

    http://www.youtube.com/user/Crusader01A

    • I just learned that a female protestor wash punched in the stomach by a passer by attending the LA Ideal Org opening. We need an ID on this fellow. It sdeems that DMs “punch-tech” is fully operational and has trickled down to some individual C of $ members.

      http://i43.tinypic.com/9sulbd.jpg

    • Wow, notice the staging when DM comes up on stage. Every other time Tommy One-Note calls someone to the stage, he shakes their hands but when he calls His Majesty up on stage he gets the
      f— out of there but quick!

      For those of us who know what goes on behind the scenes it is easy to dub in that Tommy has been mercilessly pounded for his many screw ups of late. Yet, the show must go on. So the solution is Tommy acts as emcee but is not to be allowed anywhere near Dear Leader.

      Beautiful stagecraft. Check it out.

    • Cat,
      I watched this video and yippee, DM speaks at the end of it. It’s that same sound he has for all of his public speaking. I’ve got a better isolation of the machine/circuit he uses. It’s a 3 beat cadence, just like his FNs. ONE, two, three, ONE, two, three.

      It sounds like this (you can insert any words he’s given in any speech here or just the actual message which is best summed as ‘blah’).
      He tends to take the first two beats and then rest on the third. He’ll intersperse every line or two with an upswing in pitch on the last word, then back to the ‘blah, blah, rest; blah, blah, rest and then he’ll end with a down pitch. Here goes. (Count One, trip, let, One, trip, let).

      Blah, blah, ___(rest);
      Blah, blah, ___;
      Blah, blah, blah;
      Blah, BLAH(up pitch),|___.

      Blah, blah, ___;
      Blah, blah, ___;
      Blah, blah, blah;
      Blah BLAH (down pitch).

      How about; Mis-ca-vige, Mis-ca-vige, Mis-ca-vige, Mis=CAAAAWWWWW. (That’s a crow sound.)

      Snowhite, comments?

      • martyrathbun09

        Jimbo, It is implant cadence.

      • Jim, I think the filmer deemed the rest of it “top-secret”. Still people clapping their sanity away though. DMs voice reminds me of the bass boost button on one of those “boomboxes”

        hiding behind the tarp again of course. Hey DM you are going to be 50 you drama queen.

      • I noticed this as well at the DC opening. It’s not a speech, its an infomercial.

      • I noticed tommy delivered his lines in exactly the same cadence – I kept thinking “he sounds just like dm.” Completely unnatural sounding, and distracting, when you know how he really sounds when he talks.

        I miss the whining and the audible sneer. Sigh. I’m afraid tommy has now been entirely subsumed into dm’s valance. He used to be so much fun…

      • Cat,
        As Marty has pointed up, whatever it is DM said, it’s just ‘blah’ in an implant cadence.

        He’s now 50? Well, finally he’s a Half Centurion. (Well, almost half, with the lifts).

      • At the third beat I want you to close your eyes.
        “Blah BLAH (down pitch)
        Gimme money
        Gimme money
        Gimme money
        Gimme money
        Gimme money
        Gimme money
        Gimme moneyGimme moneyGimme moneyGimme moneyGimme moneyGimme moneyGimme moneyGimme moneyGimme money….” (and so on….:-)

      • Moving Forward

        Wait, didn’t this happen already? I swear I’ve seen all of this before. Oh yeah, that’s right: LA Org was fully renovated and LA Day ‘went Saint Hill Size’ in 1996. I mean, the org was a veritable ghost town shortly after it was announced, but that hardly matters. It was good PR at the event that it was made “Saint Hill Size” for…

      • Implant cadence, yeah it is!

        It was like a snake oil salesman dog and pony show.

        With the duped Police chief and all :-( Who probably and understandably liked what he read of LRH and practical Scientology — but has no clue that it’s being used as a front for a tiny dictator’s personal agenda — which includes altering Scientology and *not* letting people have the full wins they could from the tech.

        The tap dancers came off as odd. I love 40s musicals and tap dancing. But cartoony Hollywood glee top hats … on a patio…for a grand opening….while Tommy Davis is kinda glum no less.

        Los Angeles is a huge city — how many people were there?

        And is this org in downtown Hollywood? Or did the mastermind who thought the tap dancers would Wow ‘em just usurp the Hollywood theme thinking it would give a “cool factor”?

        Because downtown Los Angeles has its own very rich and beautiful history and culture, apart from Hollywood.

        Also odd to me was how Tommy Davis introduces DM then quickly leaves the small stage, looking down, with no smile whatsoever.
        *Very sharp contrast* to what one would think the tone would be — I mean, forget the gleeful tapping topcoat opener, but this is a Grand Opening! And this is the Big Cheese he’s bringing up. Not even a bit of enthusiasm?

        Nope. No ARC. No happiness. No enthusiasm. Barely Mild Interest!! Tommy Davis delivered his words, looked down, and got off. Fear? Unexpressed resentment?

        Then DM stepped up … and I am sure he made sure there would no microphone he had to adjust so he could reach it :)

        But levity aside (and we know he needs it beyond shoe lifts) … the truly sad part of this is the people sitting there being duped. I understand what that’s like. They really do not know. They have no clue.

        Just this morning I was looking at someone’s personal photo collection of Nazi Germany — personal photos of what day to day was like. The Ideals that were appealed to. The most chilling aspect of seeing it in a personal way was how people were duped.

        With Hitler, the damage became glaringly physically obvious — hard to ignore the dead bodies and buildings bombed to smithereens. DMs damage is even more insidious and hidden, although.

        “What the people didn’t realize was the price they would pay later.”

        http://picasaweb.google.com/anne.loftin/SiegHell#5344648668775041826

      • DM’s a variation of the Sham Wow guy.

        “And this is no NORmal event, this is a moMENtous event, the likes of which we have NEVer seen before. And make NO mistake, it is with GREAT honor that we blah dee BLAH dee blah in order to blah dee BLAH dee blah, so that blah dee BLAH dee blah the entire planet. Straight up and VERtical.”

      • Muggie (fondly for Margaret),
        That is ESatly what DM sounds liKE. Perfect!

  160. Mike Rinder said:

    “What is hardest to understand is that people under his spell don’t see him for what he is. The LRH tech is right under their noses and if they would obnose what is really going on, they would see for themselves.”

    As an outsider, I think this applies to LRH as well as DM. Wasn’t it LRH who said to never defend, always attack? Wasn’t it LRH who started the RPF?

    Caliwog

  161. BLiP,
    OK, I’ll take a stab Shawn Lonsdale. Existentially you know who you are not. Would that more appropriate to existential terms be you know what you are not?

    Now, taking this one step over the line, sweet Jesus, is BLiP, as an identity; BeautifuLsadness in Pewpetuity? Or, Blame Lame ‘n Pooface? Maybe Big Lie in Pantaloons?

    And, with insouciance in wild abandon, best knot (sic) bring a knife to a gun fight. Especially with Centurion packing.

    • Jim

      Heh! “pantaloons” – haven’t heard that word in years.

      Yes. Strictly speaking, it is the “what” and not the “who” in existential terms. The wider point I was making/attempting is that my identity is irrelevant to what I am saying. If you read exactly what I wrote, I was not claiming an identity, just giving a name . . . and, yes, alright, regretfully now, having a dig at the author of the post.

      In the unlikely event that you are genuinely interested, BLiP is a childhood nickname yet almost has a magical power in that it brings out the infantile and so acts as a gauge of the person. True story: I once had a teacher named Mr Cockburn. Phonetically, the second consonant is not pronounced but I am sure you can imagine the school yard hilarity. It took me about a term to get over this but, once I did, Mr Cockburn sparked an interest and provided the first foundations of a subject that has since become my career. In the end, I learned more from him than I did almost any other teacher.

  162. My last post didn’t make it, I think my account was usurped by minerva.

    Anyhow, things are coming to a head and we are now in the danger zone. Mike, get yourself a cameraman (around 6’6″) to follow you around when you are out and about. You need to document anything else the mad squad throws at you.

    Mace is a nice tool to mitigate aggravated assault.

    DM – he would use 1.5 to get something done. He’s so stupid. It shows he doesn’t believe in Scientology.

    His ire is reaching the boiling point and he is madder than a wet hen because he is finiding out with our HE posts that his plan bzackfired – we expanded – more posters than ever.

    He’ll send his henchbitch out (Jennifer) again. She feeds on anger like a vampire feeds on blood. She lives for this sort of thing. I wouldn’t be surprised if she and DM were more than workmates.

    The person who is absolutely conspicuously absent is Marc Yager. He was made for this sort of thing. That he isn’t part of the mad squad means he is still in the hole with his flag flying. That GL didn’t utter a word means he is not in agreement. He might have wanted to come across. We should watch for that next time.

    Let’s keep the heat on. Keep it going.

    ML Virg

  163. Go ahead….make my day. :)

  164. And, I might add; confidently,competently and legally.

    Go ahead….make my day. :)

  165. Marty, Gotta be brave, ain’t nobody that stupid.

  166. So, if we are taking the middle path, then we should just handle dissenters on our lines as opposed to attacking them. correct? I know they can be testy, but the only person we are interested in attacking is DM. The rest are just PTS and our job is to DePTS them, IMHO.

    ML Virg

    • Virg,
      This is verbal sport with some of this goofiness. It’s a higher wave than alot of things could be. Like Minerva for instance :-)

    • Virgil,

      Odds are DM is backed by other SPs. So maybe all the rest aren’t just PTS. Just by percentages. But even an SP can be PTS to another, bigger SP. Being PTS doesn’t automatically exclude one from also being a suppressive. And even a shark can be eaten by a bigger shark.

      Much love,

      Michael

  167. What has confounded me with those now anti-scn and anti-LRH, regardless of the very real abuses that they no doubt did encounter at Int or at Flag — in and out of the SO is that NOT ONE seems to mention — the things is their life they GAINED from as a result of being where they were.

    The various paths they took IN their life, led them to where they were and there, they may have married. OR perhaps they learned a trade. OR perhaps they learned a work ethic (OK enforced work ethic but still how to work hard).

    I never hear any of the critics or those who stand WITH the critics saying — by god, didn’t you meet your beloved current husband while at Flag?

    So — instead of going down the incredibly human path of fault finding — why not try something different?

    #13 — BE GRATEFUL TO EVERYONE (Lojong slogan – can be googled, wikipedia is good)

    Means what it says.

    Personally I am grateful to dm for being the abusive despot he’s become BECAUSE had he just been a mediocre leader, Marty would have stayed probably in the SO out of loyalty to LRH, same with Jeff, same with Mike, Jim L., War and Peace and countless others.

    AND I would never have recovered my own personal thanks to LRH for all that I did learn while deeply involved with scn.

    I would never have had the opportunity to get to know Marty, Mike etc (through the internet) as they wouldn’t have been here. I would never have connected with so many of you at a very deep heart level.

    Without dm, this community would never have formed.

    The list is endless.

    Try it.

    Figure out WHY you might be grateful to dm. Obviously Snowhite is going to be grateful to dm for COMPLETELY different reasons than I will be :)

    But then that gives me the opportunity to be grateful to him/her for pointing out to me how it’s really impossible to talk to someone with an utterly closed mind and heart. But, I don’t have to dislike him/her. Just recognize what is.

    WH

    • WH,
      Well said, and, done. Smmmooooochh!

    • Great post WH!

      “Personally I am grateful to dm…”

      I am glad you elaborated…as I got over my initial ridge and continued to read what you wrote I had to admit, that I am grateful too.

      I have had more meaningful comm with Scientologists outside of the church than I ever had within. I am truly greatful for the opportunity that I have had in meeting such wonderfully strong beings! (Thanks, DM.)

    • WH,

      Exactly. Had DM not been there and forced Marty out which led to this blog which led to my renewed interest in Scientology as a subject… I’ve had incredible wins in the last few months from this. And the whole DM experience has opened up an emphasis on personal observation and integrity vs. “he said, so it’s true.”

      And how profound are our beliefs without being tested? Strength comes from challenge.

      Much love,

      Michael

    • “What has confounded me with those now anti-scn and anti-LRH, regardless of the very real abuses that they no doubt did encounter at Int or at Flag — in and out of the SO is that NOT ONE seems to mention — the things is their life they GAINED from as a result of being where they were.”

      Watch this, WH, for just one example of such a critic giving credit for gains made in Scn: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KP-LwYbaIow&NR=1

    • No, No, No, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO,

      As valuble a Marty and Mike are there have been too many people hurt and soo many who have not or will not benefit from the Tech. I can’t be glad for that.

      The hell with DM and this love everyone “cum-by-yaa” crap.

      I would rather Marty or Mike be successful Scn Exces because DM was pounded by someone early on.

      Thanks anyway and have a wonderful day.

      • because — “I would rather Marty or Mike be successful Scn Exces because DM was pounded by someone early on.”

        Well — he wasn’t. So this is wishing for the past to be different … which is a way to firmly be stuck in the past.

        I said nothing about love everyone OR dm …

        Rather I mentioned what works for me (and apparently others as it’s an ancient buddhist practice) is to find what it is ABOUT the person (dm for example) that creates upset, hate, envy etc IN me.

        And therefore use dm as a way to further MY growth.

        It is our enemies that cause us to grow — kinda like the pearl is caused by the irritation of the sand, in the oyster.

        Our friends are here to nurture us, support us, encourage us …

        But the real “juice” comes from those we would RATHER hate — and choose instead to use as a fuel for growth …

        And to me — dm is giving me PLENTY to grow from.

        Thus I am grateful.

        You definitely don’t need to agree with me — but I thought I best make my point a bit more clear.

        WH

      • WH…..your Buddhistic wisdom and higher learning that resides above the battlefield and out of the sandbox of various big children at times trying to one-up each other, is refreshing. As you know, I concur. ;-)

      • WH,
        Hard lesson to sell, and those who buy it have a higher recognition of of determinism. Who makes the effects? How much cause can you exert on the world? A person in overwhelm or other-determinism or even lower self-determinism gets there by assigning to much cause to another or others. But, the key is, they ASSIGNED THAT CAUSE. They were cause over becoming effect. And then complained about it. Go figure.

        But, thetans love a good game with lots of energy. And not having opponents gets a bit boring. Just think how boring it would be if everyone agreed here and wrote exactly the same things. No randomity, no unpredictability. Look at the rousing responses to some of the nut case critics. But, the smarter those critics are, the more reasoned and formidable, the greater our responses. (More on that one other day.)

        So, I don’t think, “Oh, woe is me, that evil sp David Miscavage has destroyed my church and made me suffer.” That’s being too much effect.
        And it’s living a non-cnofront.

        And another non-confront common here is that Miscavage is just some runt who’s stupid. Face it, he did what he did. He knocked out some very formidable individuals. He grabbed onto a power line and employed it to become that power line. And he is the terminal now at the end of that line. You can’t be dumb and do that. You can’t be weak-willed and do that. The power of a terminal rests in its ability to maintain its base or position. Maintaining a position in space is absolutely essential to generating power.

        So, fuck, give the guy some credit. Admire the sheer audacity and cunning. Wow! Thank him for the game. Not because doing so will give him power, but because doing so will give you power. Doing so will increase your confront and eliminate your tendency to alter-is the situation.

        Creative processing spent a lot of time mocking up just the most horrible things you could imagine. Why? To increase your confront. If you can’t confront something, you can’t handle it.

        So, I suggest not whining and being embarrassed about DM. He may be an evil little shit, but hey, he grabbed the prize. None of us did.

        This late in the game, no one will probably be left in the building to see this post. Oh well, such is life.

        Much love,

        Michael

    • WH tell that to Uwe.

      • I assume you are referring to the gentleman who got MS and died on the RPF?

        I don’t know him nor how he chose to deal with his illness.

        However, I do know several Tibetans who were tortured by the red Chinese or their fathers were and they chose to not hate those that harmed them — rather to use the situation to further their own spiritual path.

        A great deal depends on ones personal belief in the importance of integrity vs ones immediate life.

        In any case, Cat Daddy — my intention isn’t to open this up to a debate — rather simply presenting my view.

        As you have yours.

        WH

      • thank you WH for your explanation

    • I never said I wished anything.

      But the wording “to be grateful to DM” doesn’t fly with me and many others.

      There is a difference between being grateful to DM and being grateful for your own ability to get succsessful past something.

      Would you be grateful for a bullet in you stomach because you now understand something better?

      To me its BS or maybe your viewpoint is still unclear me or I’m not enlightened enough.

  168. Enjoy LA Org Grand Opening…

    • Another penny drops!

      Lee Baca — LA County Sheriff — makes small speech. According to Wikipedia did a VM course at CC Int 2005.

      OMG!!! Forget trying to get the police to come out to Hemet – right now.

      The Chief of Police LA City is more powerful than the mayor.

      The LA County Sheriff is the “chief of police” for all the deputy sheriff’s (police officers) in the county and for cities that do not have their own police departments.

      The Chiefs of Police are a tight bunch.

      The Sheriffs are as well. Riverside Sheriff would to TOLD by LA Sheriff that what is being protested is not true.

      So —- the plot thickens BUT when a cop or sheriff realizes he’s been duped — watch out.

      It’s a tight tight 3rd D — they’ll compare notes across the US and beyond.

      Just where WILL dm be allowed to land?

      WH

    • *http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_IQo8laDST4*

      hope this is easier (remove the *s)

      • Better is it to link to the clip when on his page.

        Anons know from the start the police was in the pocket of the C of $

        But we are chipping aweay at their powerbase.

      • @Cat Daddy – I see that I stepped on the toes of your earlier post. I searched the page for the link I wanted before posting, but forgot the search for YT homepage link. Yu good.

        Best wishes and hope the kittens grow up to be like their father.

      • You made me smile Wallflower.

        It is just that sometimes the Youtube user embeds the video so that you can not directly make it show in a comment.

        I geuss I will have a lot of discussions than with those kittens if so wich is a good thing It keeps one sharp.

    • Wallflower,
      Funny.

      Isn’t being sheriff an elected position? If so, this is fodder for Mr. Lee Baca’s loss of votes. His opponent could make a lot of this: a sheriff cozy with crime.

  169. Theo Sismanides

    Hey guys, 500 comments!!! I guess it’s a Highest Ever! No?

  170. Thank you for having the courage to confront this insanity. The day I watched your interview on Lisa M’cPherson’s death I “knew” there was a MAN who was fed up having to lie and hide and twist the truth continously. …….Something felt good inside, that day.

  171. Just did a check on page views.
    Looking good!
    http://www.cubestat.com/www.markrathbun.wordpress.com

    12,043. page views!
    This is very good!

  172. Michael,

    I love the way you communicate and your ability to put more depth through your words into complex subjects. I especially appreciate this statement:

    “But my forgiveness is not for them. They must walk their own path. My forgiveness is for me. I don’t want to carry the burden of hatred and anger and blame or any other negativity. Life is too full of wonder and beauty and joy.”

  173. Marty;

    This poster Tim H. is making blood squirt from my eyeballs.

  174. Hey Marty, hey Mike,

    you guys should honestly get one of ‘em natter boards, if you intent to have more discussions in the future. Any comment system is probably the worst means of written discourse, as can be observed above.

    Moderation would be a hell of a lot easier as well, so you can keep it “theta” if you feel the need to do so.

  175. I really hope Andrew calls you, Mike. That must have been a shock for him. I hope it was, anyway. I hope it helps him to wake up.

  176. I have been patient. I have read all your posts Tim H., BLiP, Snowwhite. I have read them and I understand something. In each of those posts you allude to knowing what is right, that Marty and Mike are somehow facing Karma, and that you use topics that make you appear to be trolling.

    Mike and Marty both owe you nothing. Not an explanation, not an answer, and not one wit of a communication line. You come here and say how they are responsible for this DM’s reign of terror. You say it is their fault just as much as the next person. Yet you fail to bring forth anything of any real interest. You point your fingers without ever reading the blog entirely. If you would read it, you would have answers to your trolling questions. You are not interested in it. You are only interested in assassination. You await to use words out of context to point fingers and say “Look how wrong you are!”, yet you neglect and important thing…

    How wrong YOU are.

    It would be in your best interest to bait other people who care what you might have to say on another forum. I suggest that you task your attention there. These two men are bravely and courageously righting their wrongs by standing up now to the machine of DM. If you knew anything of “Karma”, that which both of them are now doing would be corrective to the bad Karma they earned while indoctrinated by an obviously insane individual.

    Both these men deserve more respect than what you are giving them. Your negativity and your attacks are unwarranted and unwelcome. Your communication is neither constructive or appreciated.

    Thank you for graciously leaving in advance of doing so.

    Meisha

  177. “Here stands the face of evil, the architects of hate, murder, scapegoating, and betrayal.

    _____ and his supporters encouraged children to turn in their parents for disloyal conduct. All phones were monitored by the city switchboard.

    Public denouncement sheets were plastered on kiosks and store windows denouncing people for being disloyal citizens, traitors for being a member of a religious or ethnic group. Public hangings from street lamps, decapitations of student protesters.

    It was a controlled society with no opposition to the party’s official word tolerated. A reporter faced “accidental death” as dictated by these horrible blights on mankind.

    Concentration camps were unknown until the end of the war. The only news the public got was carefully crafted in newsreels and government controlled media. Seeking any other news resulted in death.”

    Sound vaguely familiar?
    The name was Hitler.
    The damage “death” done to bodies can be done to souls.

    http://picasaweb.google.com/anne.loftin/SiegHell#5344648668775041826

    • adding: In light of this, consider the events that transpired in the parking lot, after Mike had being stalked for days.

      and what his brother told him, that he would se if he could get permission to speak to him.

      ☞ An OT 8 who needs “permission” to have a conversation with his own brother.

      1) It’s a MEGA Inval to an individual’s personal integrity and ability to observe and communiate with anything, and come to an ethical conclusion.

      2) it is blaring evidence, and only an ice crystal of a massive iceberg environment that is not only t✇xic but contains the characteristics of what history has seen and documented of human oppression.

      An enormous outpoint. enormous.

    • Freedom Fighter

      Veritas, spot on and the most damning evidence of all is the response one gets when attempting to keep things on-policy and in-tech. You might as well walk into an Org wearing a V for Vendetta mask. The response is the same. Disgusting!

      • Yes. There is also a factor of “desensitization” that can occur — on the inside and also the public has read about it. Like, oh, it’s “another one of those bizarre” episodes of “Scientology.”

        It’s almost discounted by the same way one acclimates to a horrible smell after being in a room, and doesn’t notice it (much).

        Society is desensitized to violence in the first place by the images bombared via TV (I’m proud to say they *hurt* me to see them)

        But it is *not* Scientology.

        What happened in the parking lot, the stalking (for days), ambush when he was alone (i.e., planned no witnesses) and assault of Mike Rinder was orchestrated. That’s mind boggling that someone sat down and hatched this violation in the first place (and baited and flew in family members)

        But then the act itself… My GOD man. It’s indicative of serious lack of judgment and pure evil, and –even further — *a management style.* A modus operandi that is as predictable and identifiable as the sunset.

        When I ask myself how human history’s atrocities such as Nazi Germany could have happened — and those were good people, it wasn’t “the Germans”, it was the influence of one insane despot and sick power mongers — I realize how it is possible that insidiously major evil, incredible-seeming evil can infiltrate society. When good people are duped!

        And, Freedom Fighter, you nailed it, the most sickening and alarming and telling indicator of it for anyone interested in Scientology itself is, as you pointed out, that the psychotic management is “the response one gets when attempting to keep things on-policy and in-tech.”

        The Sheriff at the LA Org opening was a pawn. Just as The Christmas Parade is a pawn. And the Boy Scouts are pawns. And “art” at Celebrity Centre is a pawn.

        They are used in a the patchwork shield of “do good”, and the many peple, the majority who really want to do good, confuse the issue further! Add to that the Scientology that is used to benefit (but never give anyone REAL WINGS) … it was confusing.

        But NOW … the puzzle pieces have been identified.

        P.S. Thanks Marty, thanks Theo and thanks SK and thanks all, I love your duplication, and I appreciate and value you and this community with my very life.

      • Theo Sismanides

        Veritas, this blog here and people like you communicating at a level much higher than logic, reaching over to aesthetics, putting your mind, your beautiful thoughts and strong intention on our screens on a daily basis, serve a great purpose.

        It has rehabilitated our very basic belief that Man is basically good. I am so grateful that Marty and Mike walked away. I used to dub in so much imaginary data about the whole of Mgmt. Now I am getting out of an imaginary world and I can communicate and have actual comm and data and Whos and Whys.

        To keep communicating here serves an even greater purpose. It serves keeping our DREAM of having a world without INSANITY, CRIMINALITY or WAR.

        I am watching these days the attrocities of II World War from documentaries on DVDs. A lot of it is given in a certain way, but documentaries are documentaries.

        I so much appreciate the depths that our theta powers will soon extend to, provided we organize ourselves. You are spot on, a new world order regime is being created and C of M to my opinion for many years now has been playing a mysterious role into that.

        I once saw Bush endorse with his signature a movement by VMs on their official site. I do remember it. I saw his name there. It made me feel disgusted.

        War, Criminality, Insanity and Disorder will rise steeply from now on. The C of M is not making enough Clears or in any case Sane Beings. I became a Saner Being by Scientology. I surely did. Just through Wordclearing Tech and studying the Great Lessons by LRH. A way to be strong and civilized at the same time.

        I am sorry to say, there is no indication Man under greedy and dishonest politicians will make any progress to the opposite direction, the one LRH envisioned.

        We have the Tech but we don’t have the organization anymore to do much. This saddens me. The organization meant to do something about it, actually behaves in mysterious and suspicious ways as if it now endorses all those wars and insanity that reign on this planet.

        As I said: their church stinks now! My only safe place now, to get some sanity is from here, through the screen of my computer, getting all this theta from all of you guys. And I urge you people to unite even more and take posts and start anew.

  178. one of those who see

    ” The way disconnection is practiced in the C of M is a complete perversion of Scientology. It is used to control people rather than set them free.”

    Hi Mike, Just wanted to point out this comment you made on disconnection. I feel it is So Key.

  179. IMO, a couple of people here warrant yellow cards and if they don’t get the message then they need to be red carded out of the game. “Tim H.” comes to mind. The real Snow White, however, (not the phony who posted above pretending to be Snow White with cleaned up grammar), her posts are priceless. Any rodeo needs a clown or two and she butchers the language as good as anybody. But “Tim H.” needs a yellow card or two minutes in the penalty box for high schticking.

  180. To Tim H
    do you Know what DM did to pull all this in??
    yes is his karma!!!!!!

  181. Wow, I happened to be re-reading the research material on the MECHANISMS of MISCAVIGE. Lo and behold, they are all are present in what occurred with Mike and its still happening.

    Mike doesn’t buy Miscavige’s BIG LIE that Scientology is expanding, nor did he hang around in the Sea Org to be REPROGRAMMED at the hands of Miscavige. So what does DM do when Mike speaks out? He sends some of his main cronies to attack him while alone in the Florida glade, with both the element of surprise and the key ingredient of loved ones present playing a part, along with screaming, snarling, anger, antagonism all there in an attempted IMPLANT. The purpose of the implant? To GAG Mike, to get him to stop, shut up and hopefully make him disappear (BANISH) him.

    Then the agents of Miscavige come onto the blog and attempt to spin the TEST THAT NO ONE CAN PASS. You see in DM’s universe, and the line he likes to run on the world at large you can’t criticize him unless you are first without fault or sin (overts), but no one in real life is in that state so no one is allowed to criticize him. And if you try he furiously attempts to put the attention onto your transgressions.

    My goodness, in one form or another, ALL the same old tricks are there. They’re not working but they ARE there.

    • Great points Haydn,

      The “logic” here appears to be: You have overts so you cannnot stop me from committing my overts. So if you try to stop me, then you have similar overts of your own and you are the one who needs to be handled.

      This is his perversion of O/W tech , which he can palm off as “truth” to his minions, who cannot think for themselves, but need to do DM’s bidding under the false cloak of “standard tech”.

      Obviously everyone has some level of overts in their lives. Nobody could ever put ethics in on anyone if you had to be “sinless”.

      What we are talking about is ORDER OF MAGNITUDES.

      Hitting and torturing people under the guise of “standard tech” is an OVERT OF MAGNITUDE.

      Arriving late for an important meeting is an overt of lesser magnitude. DM’s “logic” is sort of an A=A=A on overts, all overts are the same, which is an identification and indication of deep aberration.

      Alex

  182. I didn’t really think Sweeney did anything at all wrong but he was quite the gentleman to own up to what he felt were unprofessional actions. No telling how many different kinds of crazy they tried to drive him before he decided to use his own version of tone 40 on them haha.

  183. Here comes Tommy boy try to rescue DM’s ass but no one buys into his BS and lies:

  184. To the suppressive moderator.

    I can see that you are now playing the censor game and deleting my comments. Obviously its because they get too close to the truth for your comfort level. That’s your right to do that since it is your blog. But this is unfortunate. I will be informing the rest of the internet of that is being done and what specific comments you are trying to suppress. People will be very interested in what Marty Rathbun doesn’t want people to know. This will only cause the “streisand” effect.

    Also, I will be withdrawing my support for you on this matter. All your videos that I have on my youtube and on my blog will be removed.

    You’re obviously afraid of hard questions and of the truth. The reason you don’t go to the authorities to put DM in jail is because he would expose YOUR crimes and put you in jail also. Why don’t you and Mike stop being so worried about your own necks and do the right thing for Scientology and mankind?

    Apparently what we have here is David Miscavige, Marty Rathbun and Mike Rinder, a criminal triangle. Like the ARC triangle, if one goes down, they all go down. Interesting.

    In my opinion, Debbie Cooke is the one who should take over the church.

    • Tim H,

      You seem to be trying to goad Marty and me into making public statements about going to authorities. Do you think we are stupid?

      Do you think putting such things on the internet would help any Government Agency do the job they need to do? Do you think (and think long and hard and put all your effort into it) it would do anything other than allow the Church to claim that the internet nut-jobs were controlling the investigation?

      I invite you to join the real world.

      If you have such good ideas, why don’t you make yourself known and have at it. You are welcome to take over the Church of Miscavology — its yours for the taking.

      And while you’re at it — why not take your ball (along with the videos on your blog and your generous support) and go home.

      • TIM H is a TROLL

        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_%28Internet%29

        In Internet slang, a troll is someone who posts inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room or blog, with the primary intent of provoking other users into a desired emotional response[1] or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.

        This blog is about predator Miscavige sending 7 people to attack Mike Rinder.

        Tim H
        You are a TROLL. Go away.
        You do not belong in this community

      • Tim H. Re: “All your videos that I have on…my blog will be removed.”

        If it is of any consequence to you Tim, I wanted to let you know it was only yesterday I sent the link on which assembled the prime collection of videos from the major media shows of recent (AC 360, Aussie piece, etc.). The important part of my telling you this is it was to a friend who is taking a look for the first time into what is going on inside the church. Now this resource is gone.

        So, as you can see, the ripple effect of your decision has some collateral results that might deprive even people who have no idea of the skirmish of ideas that has taken a sudden turn sideways on this thread.

        In the spirit of asking you to think again about removing these videos and in light of what you are also doing in trying to put an end to DM and his minions’ abuses of human beings via your blog, I’d like to minimally see them put back up so my friend, and others he would refer to that link, will have access these informative works.

        The mode of “getting-even-with-’em” is not helpful in the big picture. Thanks for your consideration on this.

      • Tim H, I think it is okay to ask those questions. However, I would hope that you ask them knowing, firstly, that you don’t know. And if the data you’re coming up against is conflicting, well…clearly there is more you just don’t know! Acknowledge that, keep your manners in, and carry on with your search. :o)

      • “You seem to be trying to goad Marty and me into making public statements about going to authorities”

        No Mr. Rinder, I’m not. You have misunderstood me. I’m not trying to get you and Marty to make a public statement.

        I’m trying to get you to actually go to the authorities and put David Miscavige in jail.

        You have already confirmed on this blog that you have the ability to do so. Again, why haven’t you and Marty done this already?

        Could the reason be that doing so would jeopardize your and Marty’s own freedom?

        Couldn’t you make a deal with the DA or the authorities you go to keep yourself out of trouble?

        I’m sure authorities would be more interested in bringing down David Miscavige than you or Marty.

        Would Scientology, scientologists, mankind and this planet be better off if David Miscavige was not running the church of scientology?

        If you believe that it would, why don’t you do what’s best for Scientology, scientologists, mankind and the planet and put an end to David Miscavige’s reign now?

    • Now your shining Timmy. That a boy!

      True colors. Bright and true.

      Don’t let the door hit you in the ass.

      • Mr. Rinder, indeed. The real World.

        You mind if I typo my fingers to hurt?

        The Real World. Seems a difficult confront. While Gov’ts of the world remain wholly Bankrupted 7 fold under faux debts. Moving relentlessly more and more toward a Police State. (the thought, imagine, the thought that the Judiciary is pure and clean. So bloody nuts…) Pay your Taxes Tim H. Be a happy slave. Isn’t that the Law?

        No, I’m afraid not much is new or better since LRH’s time. Quite worse, actually.

        I am doing my Hatting actions; best I can, discovering threw my own sources some shocking facts. The Sea Org don’t want to tell me about.

        As I understand it, very briefly;
        The IRS are basically a Collection Agency Register as a Privet Corp. with the Federal Reserve. (Another Privet Corp. Formed 1913 by our beloved Bankers)
        They, them there Kind Bankers, forced Many Govt’s due to Controlled Bankruptcy, OOPS… to Rule the Peoples of earth under Commercial Law and/or Maritime Law.
        YET, lets not be fooled, COMMON-LAW, AKA ‘GOD’S LAW’, IS STILL OUR RIGHT. If you know what you’re doing. You can still demand this in Courts. But that’s not the point… (btw Common Law ran the earth for hundreds of years and it is STILL Technically factually The Law.)

        To my amazement, very able Beings who have been studying this stuff for most of their lives, and again, the internet it doing us all great wonders, (that is saying; much more collaboration makes for exponential grow in many subjects) These Men have Proven fantastic shocking things;
        a) CANADA is a Registered Corp. with the IRS. (as are many other Countries)
        b) That You, Your Mother, and I, and anyone else, as of 1933, where demanded by the Govt.s to Register your Birth Certificate. Big point there… ((And would you believe it? (not only is it a faux CONTRACT held in perpetual place with IGNORANCE and slight of hand, under Commercial Law, thus making everyone subject;) IT IS A BOND. As good as Cash!!)
        Furthermore; it is presumptuously speculated that the registration numbers and eventual SIN numbers issued on each persons are actually used to issue money. uh?!)) Yet not proven.
        c) What is proven. Is this: As no longer is Currency based on Gold but the True Wealth of the Nation: True Men and Women. The Bond issued on us at Birth. (Your Birth Cert.) “For even gold has no value with out men and women to mine it” has been argued. Setting presidency. Thus, YOU are the TRUE wealth of the Nation. Fact under Law.
        d) I know of dozens of people who are successfully drawing on those Bonds or Accounts issued. Originally issued on their behalf, at the time of their Birth. (aka the Original Issue Discount or OID; to Pay many of their Bills. Their Mortgage. Gas/ Electrical/ Creditors/ etc.)
        I have links for anyone interest.

        The basic point here, sorry for the craziest build up; this is truly not a bit of bull-shit, all fact and basically simple.

        (LRH didn’t do this work, he buildt the SO so they could do it and them some, for him, that’s a fact.) I believe…

        The ORIGINAL PURPOSE of the SEA ORG was to know this stuff Cold! And to free man KNOWINGLY. AND with CLEARING. You see?

        There is more then meets the eye.

        And the original initial point I had if I can still make it, as we are still left to do this, sadly. Best we can, Mike. Best we can et al .
        To hold the line and wear the Hat of Justice. From above.

        Your not alone. I’m working on it. I have my Friends Teaching me. (These guy’s can kick ass. They’ve had Judges Blown off their benches, never to work again as Judges. And Others subject to far worse..) I’m on this.
        Ironically, we have more power then any Prosecutor; Governor; or even the President in the Land as Citizens. If you know what you’re doing, and I still don’t. Theoretically you can put a Jury of Twelve men together and make the Law Truly happen. So Tim H. has the right intention, but the wrong attitude. (That makes him a dick)

        Where’s the Sea Org when you need them. Eh?

        WTF Eh? The sit. is Fuck up!

        Anyway. Here’s but only two links. For those who could give a shit.

        (Just look now, how badly these guys need our Tech! This is important crap. If you aren’t too busy, folks, and if this strikes your interest, let me tell ya,
        WINSTAND SHROUT, the first vid, THAT’S THE MAN. Considered one of the best in this remarkable field. And it is a field of knowledge worth knowing. Frankly; I feel you can’t Clear the Third Dynamic with out it. That is a fact. Hence why I say, the SO should have been long ago been on it. LRH hinted to it long ago in the late 6os. Like 1967ish? Curd dogs and all.

        Deep shit. But where above it.

      • Antoine, I’m interested in the links you mentioned. You can e-mail them to me if you prefer: rogerparris00@gmail.com

    • Tim H. What happened to Mr. Coy “All I was doing was asking a few questions”? Now you’ve come up to expressing the hatred/anger that was seething through the cracks of your comm like caustic sulphur… That’s what some people called you on, me included.
      So now you’re angry, which is only about 50% honest — so before you take action on your threats, which is like spinning around and biting your own butt, keep moving on up.

      You’ve stated a forthright opinion about Debbie Cook, and if you think Debbie Cook should take over the Church, for Theta’s sake man Get Busy and power to you, many speak of her with great respect (and was very badly abused by DM, so it would do wonders for her belief in justice).

    • Theo Sismanides

      Tim H. your divide and conquer tactic is old. We call it 3rd party. Throwing in a lot of falshoods to get people in a fight or in doubt.

      In Greek we have a proverb and it literally translates like “being more of a king than the king”. That’s what you are trying to do here.

      In Scientology we are smart enough not to sacrifice any player. Because we are united by a very strong purpose which you obviously don’t have in life.

      I don’t even know if you ever had any inkling of WHO YOU REALLY ARE and who is really the man sitting next to you. Is he just flesh and bones?

      Since I don’t even know a lot about you I suggest you either get out of here or start respecting our ways and ethics. You are getting in the middle of something at no invitation to do so and even worse you are a bad show in the eyes of the participants and teammates here.

      So we have this football match Tim H. and you have been let by the coach to play on our side. And there is those 2-3 front/attack guys (I don’t know how they are actually called in english) and there are the defense guys and the middle guys, the play maker, etc.

      And there they are now the front/attack guys with the ball at their feet (talking about european football here) and they are in the front of the goal posts of the opposition and they have gotten very close and they are about to score… And the whole team is very anxious about it, if they are going to make it, because this game is important to all of them. You know that opposition team has been playing nasty against us. Many years now. They have been dishonest and they have always “won” and they are the “good players” and we are the “bad ones”. And they have money and PR and a Great Leader for coach who has actually perverted all the rules of football and the etchis of the game, and here you have. And you are in the middle of those two teams, now.

      And there comes Tim H. now, and starts trying to get the ball from our own front men’s feet because he wants to get this goal now, now, now and he gets mixed in their feet and he pushes them and he calls them names and he is making a big fuss that we are not giving him the ball and actually that’s not really his position, he is just new in the team and he says he has been playing at a near team and so we called him to play on our side and see what he can do for the cause and there he is complaining that the front/attack guys are not doing their job and complaining to the coach and he gets the whole thing mixed up. And the front guys are wondering while trying to keep the ball in order to score, who is this guy and what is he doing here? We don’t even know his name (this is actual). And Tim H. is complaining how bad it is and why the coach doesn’t let him play as he should.

      Come on Tim H. You see how unreal you can get? You are missing the whole background and PT scene. Step aside and let’s score some goal here before it’s too late. Because you are NO SCORER, man. That’s for sure! Go play to your old team. Here now is the Premiere League and we are no kidding, now.

      This of course is not a movie, it’s the real world and each time you open your computer and start writing something here you become Un-Real.

      If your intentions are so good as you say you will understand as Blip somehow did and apologized and is back in the game. If you don’t get anything out of what I am saying then you obviously don’t have a clue of how Understanding works and how YOU can proceed to achieve your goals and purposes as an individual and as a social being in life.

      But it looks like your purpose is something else than to stop DM so you belong to a different playing ground. Go play there or just cover defense and you maybe promoted to attack (and please don’t attack OUR front guys but the opposition guys), otherwise you get the red card from us. Start duplicating the scene please.

    • Timmy,
      This pronunciamento isn’t the way to go on this thing. Take a l’il break. Chill. I invite you to read my earlier post above on evaluation.

      You are witnessing a natural sort of rebuke here. It’s the theta-MEST theory in real life. Not scripted, but played out in actuality.

      I invite you to write to me personally if you care to. For now, you aren’t coming off the way you’d perhaps wish. Withdraw. Settle down, look over what you’ve experienced and try and gain some knowledge from it and when you are ready then play again.

      Maybe a tweak on the delivery huh? Maybe some adjustment on particle, wavelength and such.

      Of course if you are just trolling, well, thanks for the memories :-)

      • P.S. Timmy,
        You might take a page from Shawn Lonsdale, BLiP’s book.

        @BLiP, that’s an ack to you from me by the by.

        @ whomever, I may have pushed the limits on pointing out the illogics and humor of a certain person here and there. If I’ve crossed the line of decorum, my apologies to any offended.

        I must say this thread has brought out some real genius and for me I’m impressed as all get out at the general tenor and character of the contributors. Thankyou all for what’s been put so far.

      • P.S.
        In particular on the genius manifest; Once Upon a Time is a highlight. Holy cats!

      • I’d also like to ack Once Upon a Time with a “Holy Cats.” He’s made some brilliant (in terms of both “degree of intelligence” and “intensity of light”) comments, and has been an exhilarating addition to the blog. Thanks for bringing it up, Jim. :)

    • crashing upwards

      Tim. Find another way to stay important in the eyes of others and your own eyes than being a parasite on this blog and on these men. Do something important on your own to promote freedom or whatever it is you claim to champion. Look up narcissistic and parasite in the disctionary and then reread your own postings. Hopefully a light comes on for you, you cease to carp and blame and begin to grow. Best of luck to you.

    • Tim H., do you mind if I inform “the rest of the internet” that you have striking similarities with that old, tired “Truth Seeker,” infamous ARS troll, who is widely believed to be a church agent, with a mission to spam, (unsuccessfully) confuse people, etc.?

      Ref.: http://groups.google.com/group/alt.religion.scientology/browse_thread/thread/52cee9f6ded8f845

      If you are the same Truth Seeker, I would agree that banning you is the best option, since you are not here for open, honest debate, but for something else, namely, pure, unadulterated trolling.

  185. Marty,

    As Joe H suggested, this little ass guy(Tim H) needs a RED CARD. If we are SPs, then what is he doing reading our blog?
    He is not worth our time nor the space his comment takes on this blog.
    What do you think?

  186. Pathetic.

  187. Well, sorry you went through that Mike. But look at it this way, who is not behaving like a clear? These people are very unclear, that is the problem. They aren’t alone and they don’t even know it. They have more in common with people outside of the Church than they know. Just once though, I wish one of them was dangerous enough to stop whining and complaining and making verbal noise from behind those uniforms bought in Hollywood, and actually reach out and hit someone. And I wish that someone was me. Because for just one moment I could respond for all the people that have been tortured around them and by them. And I would have a legal right to help bring them into Present time real quick.

    • And I don’t mean DM, because we know he will attack someone physically who is dependent on him for food shelter and religion. (No one else of course). (And not without back help of course). And I don’t mean the obviously pathetic ones. I mean the others that hide behind this umberella called Scientology Official Copyrights and some identity and uniform and use it to torture people beneath them while pretending to sacrifice for those less able. It is such an obvious contradiction and pretense.

  188. There is a new kid in town!?

  189. I can’t help but think that Tim H. is really the Dwarf using this blog as a way to keep any line in with Mike & Marty.

    Maybe it’s time to block Tim H. from posting. Enough already.

  190. In response to WH and being grateful:
    Looking at history and the atrocities committed by good people, including this current C of S scene, I am so grateful to have lived through this. I had a shallow understanding of how, for instance, the German people could allow and even contribute to a Hitler and how other seemingly good people could torture and abuse their fellow man until I experienced it for myself. I would read about these (historically very common) abuses and hope that I would not have participated in such crimes. Now that I have down and dirty reality on it, I can spot it and understand it and I know that it would be much more difficult on the future track to trick me into believing any such abuse is for the “greater good.” For this wisdom, I am deeply grateful.

    • Grateful — precisely.

      I now have a real live demo of an SP, and how he will stop at nothing to destroy.

      Until you’ve experienced it — down and dirty — it’s just a concept. This is experience.

      Best,
      WH

    • crashing upwards

      Grateful, thanks for the comparison. I never understood how the German people allowed it to happen either. But apparently if your in a 3rd dynamic, whether its a country of organization, and you loyally accept the leaderships explanations and direction and want to believe, then little by little you can be brought to a place you would not have accepted at the outset. Being able to personally relate to Scientology helps in understanding the process and how a groups gets to places like concentration camps or the hole.
      When the leaders are malicious, ignorant, or worse, when they are evil, the outcome is tragic.
      Why do some leave such a group while others stay inside? Whether it was Germany in the 30′s or any SO location up to the present. I do not think it has much to do will gullibility or intelligence. Its tied in much more deeply with each persons personal experience within the group and their being as well as their destiny.
      Thanks again for the comparison.

  191. Considering what DM will do, I would have any car you drive be checked for GPS tracking devices planted on your car. Also cell phones are very easy to tap into if you know how to do it. They already want to control you, so just be very aware technological what can be done to know everything that is going on with your life via GPS, phone tracking systems, bugs planted. listening devices. Obviously they have proven they will stop at nothing.

  192. Tim H:

    It is the right of any moderator to decide what to have on their website and what not to have on their website. Whether you like that or not is inconsequential. Any monitored comment section is entitled to not produce posts from an obvious trouble source, which is what you are. It’s not suppressive at all. It’s mature.

    You are, as others have pointed out, a troll. You want answers and you could have them if you actually read Marty’s blog. You have failed once again to produce results for your surreal agenda. Obviously, you are not going to relieve your agenda bullet points here. The most important of the bullet points being getting a rise out of Marty and Mike because you somehow connect them to the corruption within the CoS.

    Your posts are insignificant and designed to trap Marty or Mike into saying what you want them to say, which would be a falsehood. This is immature high school behavior and most of us got over that kind of communication well into our late teenage years.

    Your ridiculously drawn parallels between Marty, Mike and DM are delusional at best. You are drawing these lines without enough proof to back them up. Another immature form of communication most of us got over well into our late teenage years.

    Your delusion of grandeur that when you tell the world via the internet that Marty has secrets (that exist only in your head) he doesn’t want the world to know is laughable. Anyone who has searched the internet for information, even on the smallest scale possible, find themselves researching the truth of what information was given. This can be done by coming to this website and seeing the ridiculous posts you have posted. Your delusion of grandeur will be exposed and your little internet crusade will become fallacy.

    Again, I invite you to graciously leave this website. Your comments are both unwanted and unwelcome.

    Meisha

  193. WH and Crashing Upwards,
    There was a book that I read (Can’t remember the name, author was Richard Maybury) where he talked about models (paradigms or stable data) and how good people do bad things when they have a bad model. One example would be suicide bombers. Their model says they are doing something brave and heroic. A model that was given in the book was “fascism” and it was defined as (paraphrased) “whatever is necessary to achieve the ends of the person in power, no limits.” If torture appears necessary, fine. Whatever. I saw that fascism is the current model in many parts of the C of M. If someone needed to ne friendly, they could. But if that didn’t work, it was fine to use the most intimate private information to cave the person in to get the product. When I read the statement by, I believe, TD about how the Church so did not want to publish private withold data, but the attorneys saying that they had no choice, I knew there were no limits. Since then I am not surprised at anything they do because I know the model they are using, “fascism”. The author had a personal stable datum that he used – when good people are getting hurt, inspect the model. I have taken that as a good stable datum myself.

  194. Tim H.

    I think this is what is happening with you Tim H.

    you’re either an OSA operative to disrupt and enturbulate the indies or you’re a really a former member who wants real reform within the church but are still under the influence of DMs ways of dealing with things and cannot but act like a DM-troll. (Been there and done it myself)

    In any case, my suggestion to you is to take a break, read some dis-related literature, go out, and met some real people, find out how normal people interact with each other and you may have a cognition of some sort. I also suggest that you apologize to the indies. This would be the real test of your own reform: can you see that what you did was wrong and change as a result?

    • Aw leave him alone already. He probably had social intercourse with Diana Class 8 and was recruited (unknowingly) in the “Get Marty Game”. Or the “Get that former Sea Org Member” Game. Her people have been taking a real ass whipping lately in this sport. But you know they say, “Pay to Play……”

      • Theoracle your post is aiming to divide. The very fact that you spell out Aida Thomas her ESMB user name brands you as a troll.

        DianaClass8 has more class in her little pinky than you in your entire body 1000 lifetimes over.

        The onley Asswhipping that needs administering is to you. You are probably Tim H. that dropped his sock to mock another one up.

      • Cat Daddy, at least I stick to topics based on events.

        The fact that you think my name is Tim indicates you have lost something in translation.

        I have not “confused you” as you state.

        If you don’t “get something” you missed a word or a chapter in this case.

        Diana Class 8 has led an overt campaign on several forums to malign, and unmock Ralph Hilton, Pierre Class Xll, Ivan Obilinsky, Marty Rathbun, and a host of others.

        It’s no secret and contrary to your verdict that I aim to divide, I have quelled many of the “get such and such” campaigns run by her.

        It is alwasy and former Sea Org member who has been in a leadership role.

        Your spat towards me, is just bitchy and feminine and clueless.

        And I was not talking to you or responding to any of your posts.

      • Point taken, claws retracted. You spell it apart. I spell it together: Diana Class 8 and DianaClass8, could a third party or troll be responsible for my little outburst(wich means that it was succesfull trolling) meaning that someone faked to be Aida Thomas of the Freezone.

        http://www.youtube.com/user/AidaThomasFreezone#p/a/u/0/V7p1vRQrpF4

  195. I brought this up to the the Senior Chaplain at Flag when she was attempting to recover me. I told her that it seemed to be the attitude that ANYTHING is ok to get the “product”, no limits and that I thought that was pretty scarey. She did not seem to notice anything amiss as she said something like, “Of course, you have to realize this is Scientology.”

    • I think this attitude goes back to KSW.

      • Yes KSW does state it in so many words at the end of it.

        Having once had that very viewpoint, I do understand it. When your stable datum is that the ONLY ONLY ONLY thing that will bring freedom to thetans in this trap is SCN, then a no-holds-barred approach becomes an “acceptable reality”. That may be the viewpoint held by many of those attacking Mike and Marty.

        This was a related stable datum to the one that went something like “until everyone is free, none of us will truly be free”.

        Combined, and without application of other more basic axioms of Scn, these two realities can allow for some rather extreme actions.

      • I believe KSW 1 is a mixture of literal and figurative language. The ten points of keeping Scientology working are obviously literal – they are numbered, listed in logical order and have none of the vagueness of analogy.

        The rest of the issue however, has to be read with a great big fat dose of common sense; and understanding the English language itself also helps tremendously. The old man was pretty good at using the language, he knew how to use words to good effect – take for example the line “we’d rather have you dead than incapable”. Does anyone in their right mind believe that is to be taken literally? Does it mean that if drilling TR0 and reading HCOBs doesn’t work, then R2-45 is the correct process? Of course not, only an idiot would assume that.

        The whole issue has the tone of getting a point across, and that point is that if you are going to study the subject then you’d better take it seriously. Not seriously as in “do nothing else for a brazillion years and neglect every other dynamic” but serious as in the way the average person takes their job and family seriously – something you can’t shirk.

        Unfortunately, the old man was also very prone to underestimating how his words would be taken, and way too many folk read the issue literally. I tried pointing this out to some of them but if you locate them on “literalness of statements received” per the Tone Scale, you immediately see why I mostly got nowhere.

        Someone else mentioned above how the writer of a piece has to take responsibility for how it will be received, and that is very very true. I believe LRH misjudged the delivery on that issue.

        KSW 1 is not basic tech; ARC, KRC, the Tone Scale and TRs are. NOTHING trumps basic tech. Personally, I have always tried to obey the letter of the ten points and the spirit of everything else in KSW 1.

        And that got me into some trouble over the years :-)

      • splog,
        That was a great splain on the mistaking of the import of KSW. Well done job. The Tone Scale point is spot on. The evaluation of importances point is perfect.

        On getting into trouble for your grasp of the whole point of the issue, well, thanks for takin’ the heat!

      • splog,

        Very well put. The basic tech — ARC, KRC, TR’s, the comm formula, the axioms, logics and factors, the tone scale, and the auditing comm cycle as covered in the Basic Auditing Series (I think that’s the name of the tape series) are senior to anything LRH says in KSW 1. For these beautiful basics, I would apply 7, 8, 9 and 10.

        But, however, I would never ask anyone not to look at and evaluate *anything* in any universe, nor make them wrong for doing so and for acting on their personal evaluations as they see fit.

      • Tone 41 wouldn’t you include the 8 Dynamics into that little list ?

      • Good quesiton, CD. You do know quite a bit about Scn, don’t you?

        I don’t put the 8 dynamics quite in the same league as the other concepts I mentioned above. I think even LRH says somewhere that the division into 8 dynamics is somewhat arbitrary. (I have no idea where that is — MOQ, you listening?)

        The 8 dynamics is a useful concept and I certainly use it. But to me the other things I mentioned are more basic, more beautiful, and more senior.

      • IFacination with the subject makes me pick up the basics quickly wheter I agree with it all or not.

        The division is arbritrary because dynamics are dynamic and spoil over into eachother. I had a convo with Jim Logan on this on this blog.

        The dynamics are linked to the Survival, and wasn’t Survival not the most senior ?

  196. WOW!! 605 postings. Everyone loves a good fight!

    BTW – Where’s Heber?

    ML Virg

  197. Marty & Mike,

    Thanks for doing what you are now doing. Although I haven’t in the past, worked with either of you, I have worked with Dan K., “Jackson”, Mariette & others. I AM sure of what their intentions were & are.

    Their support of you coupled with both of your current actions tells me everything I need to know.

  198. Obviously the Church is greatly concerned about you’re speaking out and the credibility that you have based on your previous high visibility as spokesperson. They certainly want to avoid any comparisons between the lies that Tommy Davis spews forth on a regular basis and the statements that you now disown when you were in that position.

    The very first time I protested the abuses of the Church now some two years ago, there were shenanigans involving an assault on another protestor that occurred. This took place outside of my presence and there were no other witnesses.

    In order to avoid another such situation, I immediately invested in a small, handheld video camera that I have taken to every subsequent protest. I would recommend highly your doing the same thing (though in your case, you may want to take it with you everywhere you go).

    Incidently, if you DID file charges, it would be difficult for anyone to deny your version of events since the PI’s were filming the whole thing. No doubt the police would request that video from them and I have to think it would be somewhat diffficult for a licensed PI to refuse their request. Just a thought.

    Keep up the good work, this effort shows that you are CLEARLY having an impact.

  199. Mr. Rinder and Christie I hope the weekend was not to much overshadowed by events. I wish you both well and keep on fighting.

  200. Dear, err, out-of-church Scientologists,

    as a good number of you is probably new to teh internets, or at least new to discussing Scientology on the net, here is a bit of advice re: truthseeker (Tim H.).

    Ignore him. It is a well-known troll who will at some point unavoidably appear when the topic is Scientology or rather any criticism of the Scientology Organization.

    You can’t outdiscuss him because he will ignore any arguments or facts or facts that don’t match his agenda.

    Look at the comments here. Approaching the 600 mark and you are not talking about the Co$ footbullet of having a bunch of weirdos taped by the BBC but instead you are talking about truthseeker’s behaviour and/or his silly talking points.

    Successful troll is successful.

    It is usually suspected that the person or persons behind truthseeker is an OSA operative (tho Mike should know better about Gavino and Gloria Idda’s helpers and socks), and even more usually his long-winded vacuum posts get him banned from any board sooner or later.

    So, keep your calm, and ignore.

  201. Hi all,
    I had a party of 6 circle me once in a church owned, public area, it was a purposeful confuse and conquer. I had seen, heard and experienced many red flags prior to that, but that was the event when deciding who are my friends are (and aren’t) became obvious, liability step 1.
    “they” so wanted me to grab one of their datums to align on, nope couldn’t it. Slipped into an elevator and watched my back all the way home through tear filled eyes, with the major thought what would Ron do? “self -confidence alone is security.Your ability is your security. There is no security but you”.(HFP). “Security would lie only in a man’s confidence in reaching his goals and indeed, in having goals to reach”. (SOS,Bk2)
    So well done and let’s all keep on keeping on.

  202. Please, Church “police”, take notice! I have just discovered the “Freedom” Website and the piece you have put up there to malign Tom Devoght. Since you have taken liberty to invite public participation through web communication exchange, please add the following to your list of investigative findings : David Miscavige has not paid gift tax on his BMW, other cars, Monte Blanc Pens, Maid Service, Body Guard Service, Air Tickets, and host of other GIFTS offered up to him by the Church and various celebrities. No, these things are NOT part of any Sea Org Member contract. These are GIFTS! And no gift tax has been paid for decades on these items! How do you feel about your conspiracy to defraud the I.R.S. and the tax payers? Please add this information to your Scientology Babylon web site as soon as possible! The I.R.S. pays 20% commission on information regarding tax evasion. I don’t think this big secret is going to sit in the closet for long! This is MY argument back, to the Church and Ms. Linson, for their complaints aginst Tom Devoght.

  203. Hey everyone!Firstly-thank ypu all for sharing such diverse points of views and such dynamic interaction! Secondly: please relax- don’t grant beingness to Tiny Tim and Snow White though you’ve got to love her English composition- truly reminds me of Yael). Just bear in mind that whatever you say to them only helps them to paint a better picture of their opposition: who youi might be, what buttons to push,etc. No matter how much you are goaded into a response the best thing to do is “ack and shred”. Just delete the comm from your universe. If you are so inclined, handle originations and ignore comments (and much of the feedback from them are comments).these statements made are intended to rile you up; get you upset and trip you up so that you breech security or help divulge a picture of who we are, what we are doing, planning, etc. In a democracy remember: it is the will of the majority but the voice of the minority. Allow the forum for public discourse but you are not required to engage in it.

  204. truthseekerblog

    Marty, I know that you are not going to post this but I thought I would say it anyway in response to your accusation.

    If was a troll as you state then that must mean I’m working for the church of scientology.

    Since David Miscavige is running the church of scientology then that must mean I’m working for him. But if I was working for David Miscavige why would I be advocating that Mike Rinder go to the authorities and have David Miscavige arrested?

  205. In response to Splog. Hopefully others find it useful.

    ——————
    The Scientology Indoctrination

    As Scientologists we are indoctrinated to some extent. By this I mean that
    we become less than adequately critical of Scientology and LRH. And this is
    a no-no. It violates study tech. More fundamentally, it contradicts a good
    deal of basic Scientology philosophy, and it’s from this that everything
    else is built.

    As a Scientologist, one has no business accepting *any* data without having
    evaluated it thoroughly, critically, and entirely to one’s satisfaction.
    Yet we all end up doing exactly this. The only difference amongst us is
    that some of us do it more or less than others.

    The vast, vast majority of Scientology data is perfectly legitimate, if not
    downright brilliant and extraordinary. The more Scientology one does, the
    more clearly one understands this and the greater one’s appreciation of LRH
    becomes. But there is also data included in the subject and authored by LRH
    which is simply false. I’m referring almost exclusively to what is a small
    portion of Scientology policy, and not to Scientology philosophy or the
    tech. We’ll look at an example in a moment.

    If, as Scientologists, we were not indoctrinated to be less than adequately
    critical, the false data in the subject would be clearly evident as such
    and known to all of us. The indoctrination makes us blind to it.

    If we’re envisaging what the ideal scene might be here, we might ask the
    question, “Who, if not a Scientologist, should be aware of anything in
    Scientology or about LRH which may be legitimately criticized?” Not
    exaggerated or incorrectly evaluated, as critics almost invariably do, but
    correctly evaluated and then correctly criticized because it warrants
    criticism. The answer, of course, is no one.

    KSW 1

    There are parts of this policy which make a great deal of sense, and this
    is evident. But there are parts of it which are false and make no sense at
    all, and this is just as evident if one evaluates it.

    Take a look at the following excerpts in a new unit of time. I will add
    some comments to bring to your attention some of the false or questionable
    data included in them.

    “In all the years I have been engaged in research I have kept my comm lines
    wide open for research data. I once had the idea that a group could evolve
    truth. A third of a century has thoroughly disabused me of that idea.
    Willing as I was to accept suggestions and data, only a handful of
    suggestions (less than twenty) had long run value and *none* were major or
    basic; and when I did accept major or basic suggestions and used them, we
    went astray and I repented and eventually had to ‘eat crow.’”

    Because I have virtually none of the data concerning suggestions others may
    have made, this isn’t something I can evaluate. I don’t know how true any
    of it may or may not be.

    That individuals, not groups, evolve truth–I would say that this is
    evident. This does not mean, however, that only one person in any given
    group or only one person on an entire planet is capable of evolving truth.

    LRH took the opportunity on a number of occasions in the early fifties to
    validate the “thinking men” who had come before him. He acknowledged that
    he owed much to them. They, too, had evolved truth. Amongst these were
    Sigmund Freud, who popularized the concept of locating and examining
    traumas in one’s past to resolve problems being experienced in the present.
    Why LRH went on later to attack Freud viciously and to thoroughly
    invalidate all of his work–about the best he goes on to say about him is
    that he was a cocaine addict–this is a good question to ask.

    “On the other hand there have been thousands and thousands of suggestions
    and writings which, if accepted and acted upon, would have resulted in the
    complete destruction of all our work as well as the sanity of pcs. So I
    know what a group of people will do and how insane they will go in
    accepting unworkable ‘technology.’ By actual record the percentages are
    about twenty to 100,000 that a group of human beings will dream up bad
    technology to destroy good technology. As we could have gotten along
    without suggestions, then, we had better steel ourselves to continue to do
    so now that we have made it. This point will, of course, be attacked as
    ‘unpopular,’ ‘egotistical’ and ‘undemocratic.’ It very well may be. But it
    is also a survival point. And I don’t see that popular measures,
    self-abnegation and democracy have done anything for man but push him
    further into the mud. Currently, popularity endorses degraded novels,
    self-abnegation has filled the South East Asian jungles with stone idols
    and corpses, and democracy has given us inflation and income tax.”

    Neither you nor I are familiar with the “actual record” to which he refers.
    Nor do I know anyone else who is familiar with it. One might legitimately
    wonder, then, whether any such record exists.

    Let’s look over the numbers to see what we’re looking at. Let’s imagine any
    old group. And let’s give its members as much time as they need to dream up
    100,000 ideas pertaining to technology. Twenty of these ideas will be okay,
    at least insofar as they would not destroy good technology. Some of the
    twenty would be those that actually resulted in new and workable
    technology, or which would improve already existing and workable
    technology. That would leave 99,980 ideas which would destroy whatever good
    technology this group already had.

    A few hours ago I visited my computer manufacturer’s website to check out
    their latest computers. Then I took a quick look at some of IBM’s. I know
    that both of these companies have more than one person dreaming up
    technology; they have quite a few. I imagine as well that if these people
    had been dreaming up twenty good ideas and 99,980 that would destroy what
    good technology they already had–well, I don’t think I’d have been able
    even to access their sites. Do you?

    Do you know of any group yourself, large or small, with such percentages? I
    don’t.

    The data is not just obviously false. It is obvious that it is ridiculously
    false.

    If it were even remotely true, all of us would not still be living in caves
    but would long ago have destroyed all livable caves and become extinct.

    Let’s take a look now at democracy. That democracy has given us inflation
    and income tax is false. There are a number of causes of inflation; none of
    them have anything to do with democracy. Look at countries which have never
    been or are not now democracies and you will see no lack of inflation. The
    same goes for income tax or, for that matter, unjust taxes of any kind.

    That democracy has pushed man further into the mud is false. Select any
    democratic country and take a look at what has happened in it for however
    long it has been a democracy. In all cases one sees that these countries
    have become more and more democratic over time, and that the people living
    in them have not been pushed further into the mud, but that their overall
    condition has risen and continues to rise.

    Modern democracies are not all fun and games. Neither can we assign the
    progress of the twentieth century to democracy as though nothing else had
    gone on. But I should think that with countries having become more and more
    democratic in the last century, if democracy were so bad, we wouldn’t have
    experienced the almost incredible progress we have.

    These three false data about democracy (inflation, income tax, pushing man
    further into the mud) are as false as the “actual record.”

    “Our technology has not been discovered by a group. True, if the group had
    not supported me in many ways, I could not have discovered it either. But
    it remains that if in its formative stages it was not discovered by a
    group, then group efforts, one can safely assume, will not add to it or
    successfully alter it in the future. I can only say this now that it is
    done.”

    The false datum here is the conclusion that “group efforts” will not add to
    Scientology or successfully alter it. To state that “in its formative
    stages it was not discovered by a group” is fine. But why should this lead
    “one”–that means you and me–to “safely assume” anything at all?
    Especially in view of the fact that the *individuals* in the group we are
    discussing are Scientologists. These are people who are supposed to be able
    for starters, and who are supposed to become more and more able as they
    progress in Scientology.

    “There remains, of course, group tabulation or coordination of what has
    been done, which will be valuable–only so long as it does not seek to
    alter basic principles and successful applications.”

    In other words, the rest of us are up to nothing better than keeping score.
    And this only so long as any score-keeping does not affect basic
    principles, which is fine, or “successful applications,” which is actually
    not fine. What if, years after LRH’s death, someone discovers a “successful
    application” is not actually successful at all? Some of the policy from
    which the GO operated and OSA continues to operate, for example, is not
    successful in the least.

    “The contributions that were worthwhile in this period of forming the
    technology were help in the form of friendship, of defense, of
    organization, of dissemination, of application, of advices on results and
    of finance. These were great contributions and were, and are, appreciated.
    Many thousands contributed in this way and made us what we are. Discovery
    contribution was not, however, part of the broad picture.”

    Once more, this does not mean that “discovery contribution” could not
    *become* part of the broad picture. He has given no legitimate reason, nor
    does he in the rest of this issue or anywhere else, to validate such a
    conclusion.

    “We will not speculate here on why this was so or how I came to rise above
    the bank.”

    This is actually my “favorite” in the entire issue. One is meant by this
    point to be in awe of LRH. Now, a certain amount of awe is fine. It is due
    him. But anything can be exaggerated, including awe. And it is the
    exaggeration here which creates another false datum. It is not just a bit
    of exaggeration; it is a whole heck of a lot of exaggeration.

    I don’t know about you, but when I used to read this myself, I would wonder
    in awe just how he *did* come “to rise above the bank”? I didn’t wonder
    long, though, because he leads one to believe that even speculating about
    it would be a waste of time. Why? Because, I imagined, I would get nowhere.
    Who was I, after all, to comprehend something like this? So, I’d leave the
    concept sitting there as a great and profound mystery–to be resolved some
    day.

    But guess what? There is no great and profound mystery. There isn’t even a
    minor and shallow mystery. There is no mystery at all. What does “rise
    above the bank” actually mean? Does it mean anything different than what
    any of us does when we rise above the bank? I rise above the bank at least
    a few times a day. I’m sure you do too. Just as I’m sure just about
    everyone else does. If we didn’t, we’d be back to the no-more-caves,
    now-we’re-extinct scenario.

    The statement, then, is actually nothing more than a mystery designed to
    inspire more awe and to establish more distance between himself and the
    rest of us.

    So, fine, let’s say there is some distance. Let’s say there is lots and
    lots of distance. But just how much distance is there supposed to be here?

    And how does this statement compare to other statements he made along the
    lines of, “If I can do it, I know you can too.” These statements seem to be
    considerably more accurate and in keeping with fundamental Scientology
    philosophy.

    The “rise above the bank” statement is just another example of one of the
    basic concepts in this issue: that all of us are in no way comparable to
    LRH.

    Will any of us ever become comparable? Will any of us ever have an idea
    which would not destroy workable technology, but add to it? Will any of us
    even be capable of questioning anything in Scientology, critically and
    correctly? The KSW policy, written in 1965, was reissued with a “SPECIAL
    MESSAGE” in 1980. Included in this messages was the following:

    “WHAT I SAY IN THESE PAGES HAS ALWAYS BEEN TRUE, IT HOLDS TRUE TODAY, IT
    WILL STILL HOLD TRUE IN THE YEAR 2000 AND IT WILL CONTINUE TO HOLD TRUE
    FROM THERE ON OUT.”

    As mentioned, I think LRH is due considerable awe. Lots of considerable
    awe. Whole lots of considerable awe. But I also think that he went out of
    his way in this issue to assign himself considerably more awe than can
    possibly be justified. This is what I mean by exaggeration. And an
    exaggeration is a false datum.

    “We are dealing only in facts and the above is a fact–the group left to
    its own devices would not have evolved Scientology but with wild
    dramatization of the bank called ‘new ideas’ would have wiped it out.
    Supporting this is the fact that man has never before evolved workable
    mental technology and emphasizing it is the vicious technology he *did*
    evolve–psychiatry, psychology, surgery, shock treatment, whips, duress,
    punishment, etc., ad infinitum.”

    The above is either false, merely assumption or simply meaningless. For
    example, that man has never before evolved workable mental technology is
    false. There was some workable technology before. And there has been some
    workable technology which isn’t Scientology since.

    What is more interesting, however, is that even if the statement were true,
    it is meaningless. Before Scientology there was certainly little workable
    mental technology. Neither is there anything else around today which
    compares even vaguely to it. But, hey, until a couple of centuries ago, man
    hadn’t developed industrial technology to amount to much either. And until
    just a few decades ago, man was still using slide rules to speed up
    calculations and had not even dreamed of computers.

    Now the idea here is not to compare Scientology to computers. Nor is it to
    take anything away from what LRH did discover or any of the truly amazing
    tech he developed. The idea is to not exaggerate. Because *any*
    exaggeration is false. The idea is to correctly evaluate things so that one
    may arrive at correct estimations of LRH and Scientology.

    How far would he have gotten without the e-meter? He didn’t develop it;
    Volney Mathison did. And Volney would not have developed it if a whole lot
    of people had not developed a whole lot of other things first. How soon
    would LRH have even gotten off the ground if it had not been for Freud
    developing and popularizing some of the basic concepts of psychoanalysis in
    the late 19th and early 20th century?

    In other words, are we to understand that LRH descended from heaven, “rose
    above the bank,” and developed something that no one else can touch for
    fear of destroying it at the odds of 999,980 to 20?

    Or are we to understand that as extraordinary as was, and as remains, what
    he did, perhaps it was also about time that something like Scientology were
    developed?

    I have chosen KSW 1 because *some* of the data in it is at the heart of
    what I consider are the very few things in Scientology which must be
    re-evaluated. But I have chosen it more so because it is at the heart of
    the indoctrination Scientologists receive. And it is an indoctrination
    which is drummed into them over and over and over again, and enforced at
    *all* costs.

    There is nothing more sacred in Scientology than KSW 1.

    And there is something very wrong with this when we realize that KSW 1 is
    not the Scientology Axioms or other fundamental Scientology philosophy. It
    is a policy letter. A policy letter which contains some perfectly correct
    data and some perfectly false data. And the latter conflict entirely with
    some of the Scientology Axioms and some of the other fundamental philosophy
    of Scientology.

    Scientologists develop a button on LRH. How can a Scientologist not develop
    a button when he is so thoroughly indoctrinated to have such a considerably
    exaggerated opinion of him?

    This wouldn’t be so bad if we were talking about Bill Gates and Microsoft.
    Bill might somehow indoctrinate Microsoft employees and clients to have an
    exaggerated opinion of him. He might exaggerate it greatly. But however
    much he exaggerated it, we would still be looking at Bill Gates and
    Microsoft, and very few people would be *that* impressed.

    Instead we are looking here at LRH and Scientology, and this complicates
    things considerably.

    It was entirely unnecessary for LRH to exaggerate his accomplishments: they
    were already enormous. But he did just that.

    At the same time he underestimated and invalidated everyone else’s
    accomplishments and abilities, past, present and future. And it was
    entirely unnecessary for him to do that either.

    This is why Scientologists end up with a button on LRH. Our estimation of
    him becomes far too exaggerated. We put him on a pedestal. Most
    Scientologists consider that he could do no harm; that he was perfect or as
    good as perfect. It becomes an overt or some other nasty thing merely to
    have a critical thought about him or Scientology. All of this is part of
    the indoctrination too.

    As we know, Scientologists are sheltered from “entheta,” especially about
    LRH. When we are not sheltered by others, we are discouraged from having
    any direct contact with it ourselves. And if that were not enough, there
    are policies which forbid all contact with the sources of “entheta”: SP’s,
    people antagonistic to Scientology, authors of “entheta” books, etc.. This
    too is part of the indoctrination.

    I am not interested in promoting actual entheta. But if there are critical
    facts to be known, why doesn’t each and every Scientologist learn about
    these sooner than later? Instead there is really no one more ignorant of
    what might be any of Scientology’s or LRH’s outpoints than we
    Scientologists.

    I will take up one last thing here. Why is it not just a good idea but
    actually indispensable to discover what, if anything, may have been not
    entirely right with LRH?

    If he had some aberrations and if these remained unhandled right up to his
    death, but if these aberrations *did not* end up in Scientology materials,
    then they could be considered little more than historical data. If, on the
    other hand, he had some aberrations which did work their way into
    Scientology materials, it would be vital to know something about them.

    It was with this in mind that I read some of the unauthorized biographies
    of LRH. I have read many other things about LRH as well, almost all of it
    available on the Web. These materials are often packed with their own false
    data, exaggerations and incorrect evaluations. It is necessary, then, that
    one evaluate it correctly.

    This includes leaving some of the data only partially evaluated or not
    evaluated at all, at least temporarily. The reasons for this are twofold.
    Some of the data is impossible to verify. Some of it, because of other data
    which is omitted (one just does not have it) can not be correctly
    evaluated.

    This last point is important. When it isn’t possible to correctly evaluate
    some data because one cannot verify if it is true or not, or because other
    data is necessary for a correct evaluation but one does not have it, it is
    necessary to realize that one should not jump to conclusions. Continue
    researching. Continue finding data and, wherever possible, verifying it. Is
    it true? Is it false? And if some data remains unverified, recognize that
    it remains incompletely evaluated.

    What happens with many Scientologists who do study this data is that they
    do not correctly evaluate some or much of it. Some of the data is shocking
    and there is no getting around that. It simply is. But instead of
    evaluating it as calmly as possible, and entirely to their own
    satisfaction, these Scientologists lose themselves in wild speculations.
    There is nothing wrong with wild speculations if one recognizes that that
    is all they are, and that they are not conclusions to which one has arrived
    through correct evaluation of data.

    The good news is that there is no reason anyone can not correctly evaluate,
    or temporarily leave unevaluated, any of this data. This may be more
    difficult for some than for others, but that is all.

    Some Scientologists, however, do fail to correctly evaluate some of this
    data. The result is that instead of becoming more aware and more
    responsible Scientologists, they become disaffected.

    Some become disaffected to the point of becoming ex-Scientologists. Some go
    into apathy on the subject or merely lose interest. I imagine there are all
    sorts of gradients and kinds of disaffection.

    I consider any degree at all of disaffection to be an outpoint. This
    doesn’t mean that when one finds out something about LRH or David
    Miscavige, or about the RTC or OSA, or about whomever or whatever, that one
    can not become alarmed or annoyed, or very alarmed or very annoyed, and
    thoroughly arc broken. Responses such as these are often pluspoints because
    they are understandable, rational responses to some of the unpleasant
    surprises one may experience.

    If, however, one has had some time to cool off and reason things out, to
    further research and evaluate, but one still leaves oneself sitting in a
    major arc break, this becomes another outpoint. There is no reason for an
    arc break to *persist*. One should be able to get through it and out the
    other end.

    After I re-evaluated all sorts of things myself, I did not end up with less
    arc for LRH but with more. Understanding is composed of affinity, reality
    and communication. What I no longer have is some of the awe I had before,
    but that’s good because it should never have been there. I no longer have
    some of the considerations that went with this awe, but that’s good because
    these considerations were false.

    What I have now is a far more accurate appreciation of the man. And it *is*
    appreciation. A lot of it. In fact a whole heck of a lot of it. All that
    has gone are false data and considerations which should never have been
    there in the first place. The result is that I have far more *genuine*
    understanding and appreciation.

    This is what I consider any Scientologist should end up with after
    re-evaluating some things. If they end up with something else, I can only
    conclude that it is because they manage to accomplish more misevaluation
    than evaluation.

    The “Veritas” Bunch

    They are all in a chronic games condition with Church management. When
    you’re interested, find “The McDonald Papers” on http://www.xenu.net. Led by Randy
    McDonald, many or most or all of these people were declared. They were
    then, and remain now, thoroughly indoctrinated Scientologists.

    They have done some interesting research into some of the corporations of
    Scientology and have published documents which show, if I recall correctly,
    that the CST (Church of Spiritual Technology) owns the copyrights and
    trademarks of Scientology. And that Meade Emory, ex-Assistant Commissioner
    of the IRS, if I recall correctly, is a member of the board of directors of
    CST. As are one or two or more non-Scientologist lawyers.

    From this research they go on to conclude that Scientology was taken over
    twenty or so years ago. By whom exactly is not known. They also conclude
    that LRH, himself, was controlled at least in part by these people, and
    that David Miscavige is merely their pawn.

    As even some of the less intelligent people on a.r.s. have pointed out,
    whatever these legal papers may say, that is all they are: legal papers.
    The corporate structure of Scientology must include stacks of these, and
    there is every reason to suspect that there are papers which render null
    those that have been found by Randy and his friends.

    It is naive to deny the mass of evidence which makes it clear that
    Miscavige is running things. It is wild speculation to conceive a vast,
    still hidden conspiracy to explain some of the outpoints in Scientology. In
    other words, we are not looking at evaluation but at a bad excuse for such.

    Unfortunately the Veritas bunch are too fond of their games condition to
    understand this.

    “The McDonald Papers” describe the genesis of Veritas but not the real
    beginning. That will found in the Scientology indoctrination each of these
    people experienced and continue to swear by. This indoctrination will not
    admit that LRH could possibly have been responsible for some of the
    unchanging bad, as well as all the good, which is Scientology.

    The “Criminal Time Track”

    If I understand correctly, it has been under construction for a year or
    two. The gist of it is that management has been squirreling the tech and
    screwing up many other things as well. Therefore, management are the bad
    guys, criminals.

    What the authors of this time track and the Veritas people keep missing,
    because they don’t want to confront it, is that although management has
    indeed been screwing up some things, management is not the primary who.
    Most of management’s screw-ups are nothing more than their attempts to
    apply various LRH policies and programs and orders and advices and who
    knows what else. The primary who is LRH.

    Now, if you’ve been management for nearly twenty years, and if you just
    keep making the same kind of screw-up over and over and over again in the
    name of Keeping Scientology Working, well, this isn’t too bright either,
    and it makes these people whos too. But if all of the management were
    replaced and none of the policy which may be responsible for the screw-ups
    cancelled or revised, we would only have other people committing and then
    repeating the same screw-ups over and over and over again.

    Who are the good guys?

    An area you will have fun re-evaluating is PTS and SP philosophy. LRH
    developed some spot-on philosophy and some absolutely amazing tech. The
    Suppressed Person Rundown, for example, is exactly what he wrote it was:
    magic.

    Some parts of the philosophy, however, could be far better researched. For
    example, I would not be so quick to label some people PTS or SP. Most
    Scientologists, for example, would consider many or most of the critics on
    ars (alt.religion.scientology) to be SP’s because they are publicly
    criticizing and attacking Scientology. Well, things aren’t quite this
    simple.

    What is true is that ars critics, virtually without exception, have
    Scientology and LRH misevaluated big time. They have some of the criticism
    right, but the rest of it and everything else wrong. This doesn’t, however,
    make them SP’s.

    I think the biggest problem with critics of Scientology is that it’s
    impossible to be a good one without understanding Scientology very well,
    and none of these people do. Even the ex-Scientologists on ars have ended
    up perverting much of whatever understanding they may have had of
    Scientology as part of the their experience of unbecoming Scientologists.

    All ex-Scientologists have experienced overwhelm. The only difference is
    one of degree.

    Many of their stable data disappear, but this isn’t the problem: so did
    many of mine. The problems arise in the handling of any confusions that may
    arise when these stable are invalidated and blown. Ex-Scientologists get
    some or a lot of this handling wrong.

    The Scientology indoctrination includes some data which are false but which
    are adopted by Scientologists as stable data. These false stable data need
    to be recognized as such and blown.

    A mistake is made, however, when valid Scientology data, especially data of
    some importance, is invalidated and dropped. Those who become
    ex-Scientologists, in their attempt to purge themselves of the false stable
    data in the indoctrination, commit this exact mistake. In other words, they
    throw the baby out with the bath water.

    Lastly, a Scientologist who discovers that she has adopted some of the
    false data of the Scientology indoctrination as stable data for herself may
    need not only to blow these stable data, but to adopt other, better stable
    data to take their place. With some of those who become ex-Scientologists,
    however, this can get pretty weird, and we see them come up with real
    winners like, “I am my body” or “I think with my brain.”

    So, we have an extraordinarily bizarre scene overall.

    We have critics who aren’t the best of critics.

    We have Scientologists who don’t know there’s anything major to fix in
    Scientology, let alone what it might be.

    We have Scientologists who fail to handle in an intelligent and responsible
    manner whatever upsets they may experience when they try to confront what
    is major and needs to be fixed in Scientology.

    Last but not least, we have a few Scientologists who do have a good
    estimation of what’s wrong and needs to be fixed, but who can not speak
    freely because if they did, they would be declared–for starters.

    One of the things which contributes to making this such a bizarre scene is
    that even when a critic does get some criticism right, instead of being
    acknowledged, he is roundly ignored. Unless, of course, he persists with
    his criticism, in which case he may end up being investigated by OSA’s
    private investigators and sued by its lawyers.

    In other words, this is a considerably more bizarre scene than it has any
    business being.

    The why is some of the policy concerning criticism of LRH and Scientology.
    It commands those who are indoctrinated and, therefore, willing to apply
    it, to discredit and eliminate the criticism and, if necessary, to destroy
    the person making it.

    Even this wouldn’t be as bad as it is if it were limited strictly to
    invalid and highly destructive criticism. But it is not even limited to
    that. This policy applies to all valid and constructive criticism of LRH
    and Scientology as well.

    The who could only be the man who wrote the policy: LRH.

    Can things be changed from within?

    What I’m certain of is that things can and will be sorted out. Exactly how
    or how long it might take–this is perhaps what makes this scene more
    interesting than anything else.

    I’m thrilled, actually, that ars and activities connected to it are
    elements of the scene. Regardless of how poor some of the criticism may be,
    Scientology needs external, public criticism, and any criticism is better
    than none. Fortunately some of the criticism is quite good. Chris Owen’s
    research into LRH’s military record is an example. So, perhaps the most
    important thing about ars and the rest of the critical stuff on the Net is
    simply that it’s there.

    That more and more Scientologists will bump their noses into it is only a
    matter of time. Many will become disaffected, just as many already have.
    Others will be more intelligent and responsible. But however long it may
    take, the Scientology indoctrination will become real to all
    Scientologists. If nothing else has a big impact first, such as Miscavige
    having a few cognitions, more and more Scientologists unindoctrinating
    themselves certainly will.
    __________________

    • crashing upwards

      Damm, Terril. That wasnt exactly an “oh, by the way.” How long you been sitting out there waiting to unload that? I liked it.

      • That was absolutely brilliant, Terril. Thank you.

      • I like a good deal of this post too.

        Terril, I’ve seen you post this elsewhere, but I think you said someone else wrote it. Am I remembering that correctly?

        Anyway, whoever wrote it, it’s got a lot of truth in it.

    • Terril,

      Congratulations on an excellent summation!

      The fact of indoctrination is hard for scientologists and ex-scientologists to confront.

      A cult needs a fundamental dogma which cannot be questioned and that is KSW #1 which appears at the beginning of every course pack and is drummed into the heads of scientologists from day one.

      Dogma is the established belief or doctrine held by a religion, ideology or any kind of organization: it is authoritative and not to be disputed, doubted or diverged from.

      KSW #1 was the key step in the “cultification” of the Church of Scientology. Prior to its appearance there was the appearance, at least, that one could question authority and even consider that Ron was making mistakes. One KSW #1 was slammed in, any violation was considered heresy.

      If we take a long hard look at KSW #1, we can see that it added nothing to the discoveries and relationships of basic scientology. It only added imperatives that we must act in unquestioning accordance with Ron’s word.

      In short, it is the keystone on which the current cult was constructed. When the true role of KSW is known, the church will have a chance of reform, and not before.

      For more data see this article:
      http://possiblyhelpfuladvice.com/?p=489

      • David,

        Whole heartedly agree. I have said before that in my experience of scientology, KSW changed everything.

      • David,

        this is what I came up with, too, over the last few months of intense study of what is out there in the net. It IS hard to confront and your site helped a lot. Terril’s summation IS brilliant whereas I have to say that my judgment comes out much harsher given the debilitating consequences and scope of cultification KSW1 really had and still has and will even continue to have for quite some time.
        Thank yee both!