Prisoner of War and Miscavige Hole Inmate

Please compare the video posted at KABC TV of Debbie Cook signing her walking papers from Misavige’s Hole with the video of an American POW in a North Vietnamese prison camp.  See any parallels?

269 responses to “Prisoner of War and Miscavige Hole Inmate

  1. I understand Debbie fully , only those who are being under such presure will understand what mean fight for your life and freedom… I was on a position that I will sign anything!!!! and I mean ANYTHING!!!!! to get out of there… and as her I also considere to cut my wrist…crazy yes!!!…..but that’s the kind of presure you are on…and isnt’ only the First Amendament you renounce, I had to agree that never will go back to Florida, Clearwater area… such a BS… and believe me I left Clearwater…. and they scorted me to see I was leaving…. … they even bring me son the day I was leaving so he could said good bye mom…. yeah sure they don’t destroy families….they do….
    but when you DPTS from them and regain your Freedom and ability to think ….. then you said to hell with them!!!! and I went back to Florida and recover my family( on this I was lucky) but the damage done to them, will always be there..
    We are FREE and HAPPY!!! and thanks to Marty and Mike that became a big reality……
    Hope others have the courage to leave and enjoy Freedom…AGAIN!!

    • Thank you for telling your story. Would love to hear more. Glad you got your freedom, your ability to think and your son BACK! Wonderful!

    • another ex fso,

      thank you for telling your story. I am very glad that you are well and happy again!

      So, now we find out that (beside all the other atrocities) a departing member of the “Church of Scientology” is made to agree that he has not to come back to the U.S.. The Church assuming a right which falls under the jurisdiction of the U.S. government??

      I want to thank everybody here who told his story. I am outraged about it all but glad that you talk about it and that all this atrocities are coming to light. No more suppressing of our communication under the guise of “religious faith”.


  2. About 2years back 2 American journalists were put in a N. Korean gulag
    and someone who had experienced such a “re-education” center there
    gave an interview what they did and their daily routines. It sounded much
    better than the RPF.
    You have hit the tip of the iceberg, ABC. Keep scratching and you will
    get pay dirt. Like people in the RPF for over 10 years or putting someone
    in who had alzheimers. And LA taxpayers shelling out 1 million $$ a year
    to subsidize the church irresponsibility on PAC medical lines (2004). N/g
    new but disgusting all the same.
    I for one would like to be a proud Scientologist. OSA, OSA OSA…please
    do something! Hi, I just had an epiphany; do what Ron says!


    DM: “Bend her finger back.”

    Lackey: (Bends Debbie’s finger back hard)

    Debbie: “Aaaaaaaaah! Oooowwwww!”

    DM: “Ok, you were never mistreated, right?”

    Debbie: “Well…”

    DM: “Break it!”

    Lackey: (Bends finger back harder)

    Debbie: “Ok ok ok ok ok, ow, yes, YES! I WAS NEVER MISTREATED!”

    DM: “Ever here and not by me and you never saw anything, right?”

    Debbie: (comm lag)

    DM: (nods towards lackey)

    Lackey: (pulls out bamboo shoots and looks at Debbie’s fingernails)

    Debbie: “Correct correct correct. I never saw you punch Yager in the face. I didn’t see that guy licking the bathroom floor. There is no hole. No one in it. You never made Heber wear his underwear on his head. I definitely did not stand in the trash can for 12 hours. It was only 11 and we were just playing. You’ve been wonderful, really wonderful. It’s like a resort here. Lots of sleep, great food for everyone. We all adore you.”

    DM to Lackey: “You can let go of her finger now. And put those bamboo shoots away. Call security and tell them I don’t need the cattle prod I asked for and they can let Wayne out of the cage.”

    DM to Debbie: “Ok, you can go see Abelson now. Don’t ever come back.”

    Debbie: “Thank you.”

    DM: (spins around in his chair and hits the unmute button on his stereo system which plays ‘Another One Bites The Dust’ by Queen as he whispers into his camouflaged collar microphone to Elliot.)

    DM to Elliot: “Pie Face, Abe, I want Pie Face on the video or she doesn’t leave, GOT IT??! She’d better be thankful or else! We’re tight on those Shuttup Clauses, right?”

    Elliot to DM: (presses finger to hidden ear piece) “Yessir, tight as a drum, Sir, legally chained, shackled, muzzled, in a vise, screwed down, roped up, tighter than a Sea Org member being shoved down a toilet with a plunger, Sir!”

    DM to Elliot: “Nice. Now let’s get her stinking carcass to hell out of my organization.”

    Elliot: “I’ll have her leave out the back when I’m done. The guards are on her if there’s any trouble.”

    DM: “Just text me the codeword ‘Trash’ when it’s all signed, sealed and delivered and her smell is gone. Get busy.” (click)

  4. Centurian, What is dolosity? shows no results.

  5. “Dolosity is said to mean deceitfulness or hidden malice.”

  6. Thank you!

  7. This is brilliant, Don! What a comedy of errors!

  8. I had to sign an affidavit on video too, in order to leave. At the point I was a POW. I know Debbie was too. She was waxing to get out the door. My affidavit basically said that I was responsible for anything bad that ever happened to the Church, I ripped the church off and tried to drive it broke, I tried to make the Church less powerful and so on. It was here that I decided I no longer wanted to be part of this organization. If my time on staff amounted to these allegations in the eyes of the Church then I was on the wrong team.

    You know, I was in the Army. I went through combat in a war. Then I worked under wild to hurrendous conditions in the Sea Org as a lot of us have and most of the time you don’t mind because I for one treated all of that crap as “Helping Ron Clear The Planet – Bullbaited”. And a lot of us did the same. But the hole and the musical chairs and the rest of the DM fantasies of being a Don pushed it over the top. And once it got over the top it spilled in the streets for the rest of the world to see. Now it is going to be payback time to the little pimple with a big head.


  9. Interesting how Karin Pouw stated that they had Debbie sign the contract on video because Debbie had previously made derogatory comments against the church of scientology yet in the video Elliot says how the money was in consideration for the excellent services she’d provided.

    What ever else this video shows it’s hardly a defrocking as Karin Pouw also asserts in her comment about Debbie and her husband being defrocked apostates.

  10. In reference to Jeremiah Denton, if my memory serves me correctly, wasn’t he a Texan also?


  12. Several of the OSA-bots are commenting on the ABC News site that Debbie has gained so much weight and she used to be so much thinner, yeah…that happens when you’re not on rice and beans/gruel diet! Maybe that’s a new approach they could use…”Lose weight now! Ask me How! See the RPF near you for details!”

    Do they have to turn in their critical thinking or just their dignity to be OSA?

    • Stoic-1,
      not only do they have to loose the ability to think critically, they have to loose any ability to think for themselves at all, coupled with no dignity, and most importantly, they must key in all their EVIL INTENTIONS to fuel their dedication to the SP i/c.

  13. What continues to be remarkable about the Church’s response is that “All of this expansion is date coincident with the removal of Ms. Cook and a few other select individuals that make up their posse of apostates”. I guess Marty and Mike and Debbie et al were the correct ‘Whys’ and now the Church can expand its real estate like never before!

    Here is what LRH says in Data Series 41RA: Evaluation:The Situation: “Now any time you find thirty people on staff being removed because they were suppressive, you know they had the wrong Why, because the percentages are wrong. It’s just as mathematical as that. If they’ve done that then I can also assure you they’ve left the suppressive on the staff and I can also assure you the guy that did it was suppressive.”

    Tom Price

  14. For Debbie Cook and all of us bitter, defrocked apostates (LOL), and all of those afraid to leave the Church of David Miscavige and to those still in The Hole:

    From L. Ron Hubbard’s lecture DECISION, 20 May 1952: (Fair use)

    “The power of decision is actually the power of sanity. And just as you can run away and then become afraid, as well as become afraid and run away (it works both ways, you see: you can become afraid and then run away or you can just run away and by the action of running away become afraid, because you’re dramatizing being afraid, so you will agreeably become emotionally afraid), so it can work that simply by being decisive, you come way up Tone Scale. You just artificially get decisive. You come up Tone Scale. In other words, don’t look at this now as “The only method of being decisive is to come up Tone Scale and then be decisive.” No there’s another method. And that is: get decisive and come up Tone Scale.

    If you just mercilessly search out of your life, in the actions and the common actions of your life, all the maybes on a decision level, and if you suddenly assert your decisions where you have withheld decisions, I can guarantee you that your life will smooth out pretty well. If you do that in a big office, for instance, where’s there’s a big staff, it may very well be that by asserting your decisions they fire you straight out the door. That’s where you belong, then. You’re a lot better off outside that door. If this environment has smothered your power of decision, you don’t belong in it. Most of the indecision which you will meet in life is strictly based around choice of environment and the ability to exert decision in that environment.

    There is a therapy, all by itself, of placing a person in another environment: environmental therapy. Merely by changing the environment you bring the tone up of the preclear. If you’ve seen a preclear in somebody’s home — this preclear is in somebody’s house and his power of decision is being nullified continually in this house – by moving him to another house you will bring him up Tone Scale to a point where he’ll run much better.”

    Tone Scale: A scale of various emotional tones ranging from the highest to the lowest and these are in part, serenity (the highest level), enthusiasm, (as we proceed downward towards the baser affinities), conservatism, boredom, antagonism, anger, covert hostility, fear, grief, apathy. This in Scientology is called the Tone Scale.

    Preclear: a person who, through Scientology processing (counselling) is finding out more about himself and life.

    Much love to all who have made the hard decisions, and to those who are in the process of making these decisions,
    Catherine Von Ach

    • Thanks Cathrin!!

      I was looking for this reference since quiet a while – one of my favourites.

      “… That’s where you belong, then. You’re a lot better off outside that door. If this environment has smothered your power of decision, you don’t belong in it. …”
      That´s what I was reading when being an “ethics particle” (before I was released from the Ship). Was kind of soothing and very pertinent to my situation. – Karola

  15. Mother of Grendel

    In addition to all the astute and thought provoking comments above… it struck me that this is a media outlet in LA is actually covering this! In the past, the LA media has been too afraid of retribution or lawsuits to dare to put out anything negative about the Cof$. For a local TV station to run this story, they must feel pretty confidant that it will be safe for them to do so.

    The walls are tumbling down!

  16. Oh hey, remember when all those Catholic parishoners accused their priests of molestation, how the Catholic Church called all those parishioners heretics and criminals, and had the priests talk to the press about what those parishoners had disclosed in Confession, and then all the parishoners got ex-communicated and harassed by PIs, and the Church said all those parishioners were just colluding with each other and making up stories to bring down the Church because they were bitter, and the Church didn’t even want them as Parishoners anyway? You guys don’t all remember that?? Yeah, me neither.

  17. The video is particularly interesting (read: appalling) because the Church probably views it as showing Debbie leaving the Church on ‘good terms’ and whatnot, but to anyone outside of that strange bubble, it shows a person who is clearly very upset, is tense and who has been cowed. Additionally, it shows an extremely controlling environment. There are a few things that really stood out to me:

    1) Abelson makes reference, right after saying that she has agreed to ‘not interfere with the church’s growth’ says that she will also not ‘talk about any of the confidential matters that have come to her attention’. Any reasonable person’s next thought would likely be something like, “What confidential matters are they so afraid of her talking about that would interfere with the church’s growth?”

    2) Abelson, in talking to her about what she will do next (which, in itself is strange) said: “You have family between you and your husband who are Scientologists — there will be minimum (minimal?) contact.” Certainly for anyone outside the church, that would cause a gigantic WHAT???!!!!

    3) Abelson is trying to show that the church has been treating her well and asks if she has had enough sleep, and he said that it’s “probably much more than you ever had on post”. Since earlier in the video Debbie states that she has had a physical condition for 8 years, therefore including while she was on post, even the church’s attorney is openly admitting that she really wasn’t given proper treatment by the church because she would never have previously gotten much sleep.

    4) The document signing goes on for endless pages. It really makes the church look like it has a whole lot to hide.

    5) Abelson again makes reference to confidential matters, this time saying ‘strict confidential’ matters and says that it is in not only the church’s best interests for her to not talk about such matters, but in her best interest as well. Oh really?

    5) Debbie’s manner is entirely opposed to Abelson’s. He is clearly trying to make ‘light’ of it, making a few jokes and personal references, whereas Debbie barely moves, is tense, does not say much of anything other than ‘yes’.

    • Good points. The biggest “what” of all is: WHAT “church” does this? What “church” has an ex-mob attorney sit with you to sign a stack of papers just because you aren’t going to work for them any longer? Any jury would be left wondering if Debbie was leaving a church or an organized crime syndicate.

      Have to love the fact that DM turned this tape over. It’s almost like he’s begging to be indicted. When you look at his recent actions from suing Debbie to what happened in court to turning this tape over, I can’t come to any other conclusion. DM is asking society to put his ethics in.
      Note to Feds: please give this little man what he wants.

      • I would agree. Anybody with half a brain would ask themselves:

        How is somebody highly trained in LRH tech, gets transferred to another post, while still being held responsible for the post just left, and then gets sick, and then blows, and then routes out properly, and then disappears you might say from the scientology general public view, then writes an email saying we need to get KSW in as something is wrong, and then gets sued by the same organization she helped……………..

        why, somebody has to ask themselves, how is this possible? What about the billion year contract? What about the freeloader debt? How come they got paid some money while routing out?

        It just doesn’t add up? One of the most highly trained people in the world on LRH tech, gets sick, and phoof you are gone. Hey, thanks so much for your service, we really really care about you. Oh, by the way, keep your communications to fellow family scientologists to a minimum, we don’t what any trouble. And you agree, you agree, you agree, initial here, sign here, you agree, right?

        It all reminds me about the same as this south part clip on the recent financial crisis and banks:

        It’s Gone, Your service, your dedication, your training, it’s GONE.

  18. The KABC video about the San Antonio case is showing on their website at #1 most watched video.

  19. I looked up “smarmy” in the dictionary and Abelson’s picture was right there.
    (Ingratiating and wheedling in a way that is perceived as insincere or excessive; unctuous. Synonyms: sycophantic – adulatory – oily – obsequious – fawning)

    By the way, I Googled some of Miscavige’s affidavits and declarations.
    There are some mind boggling whoppers in there. Perjury by the line.

  20. The preponderance of evidence is such that the likes of Ray Jeffrey will start doing these cases on a contingency basis to handle the finances of this impending tidal wave. Those individuals already mentioned as being witnesses within the statute of limitations are some of the best and deserving people on Earth.

  21. morelivesthanacat

    It’s time for some Ninjas with video cameras to camp out on the hills with long lenses on 24 hour watch. If it hasn’t happened already, I’d say the hole (wherever it is now–berthing buildings?) will be emptied, under cover of darkness (black boiler suits provided to the prisoners). No kidding.

    I predict they will be given an R factor by POB, a grand gesture of amnesty because of all the great things that are now happening in the Scn world (which will be briefed in GREAT detail); that he feels they’ve “gotten the point” by now, and quite magnanimously he will return them all to post with explicit marching orders to back up the current straight-up expansion (no joke–he’s done this before, like when after Marc Yager was declared an SP in the mid-90s and eventually “did the RPF” twinned with Biddy Miscavige and “graduated”, he was RETURNED TO THE POST OF CO CMO Int by COB much to the astonishment of most of us at the Base. (“wow”! we thought. He really does grant beingness!)–even to someone he briefed the entire base on two years earlier was a raving SP –all gory details included- Speaking for myself, I must say I was impressed at that outcome initially. Though I did find it odd that, within a few years, Yager, still supposedly on post, was a constant target of derision in the presence of other Int and Gold execs at the regular briefings and conference room meetings.

    To continue, he will uniform them, feed them well (to fatten them up), tend to any medical and dental work needed, and, in short, will take full advantage of the “Stockholm” syndrome (Black Dianetics) to return all these missing faces to the top in such a way that they will be eternally grateful (having finally realized he was right and that he indeed did salvage all of Scientology single-handedly in their absence). And they will attack their posts with a new relish as the robots they have now become and will defend Dave –as needed in the future– to the death.

    Hopefully, if this sort of thing is actually in the works, there are a few left strong enough that retained enough integrity to finally take care of Dave.

    Scary thought, isn’t it Dave?

    You just won’t win this one–no matter what you do now.

    I suggest you have Tom take you to Bulgravia. If he’s still talking to you, that is.

  22. Elliott Abelson is not licensed in the State of Florida. How is it possible for him to get anyone to sign away their constitutional rights in the state of Florida? Ethics charges…..looks like a good place to start to me!

  23. I am wondering if any of the people who blew the S,O. or org staff instead of routing out are thanking their lucky stars for making a wise decision. I know I am. Watching Debbie go through that was very sobering.

    • Ditto Dan. Though their PIs located me months later so that Warren McShane & Mike Sutter could visit and get me to meet Kirsten Caetano to sign two sets of NDAs, one regular and an extra additional one for Tom Cruise and VIPs. “Severance pay” was mailed some time later as perhaps an afterthought.

  24. Pope Tiny Ball’s dictum:

    The beatings will continue until morale improve.

    • I beieve the beatings will continue to maintain the environment where if you hold up 3 fingers and tell someone there are 4 they will actually see 4; or in this case they will be shown empty buildings and see expansion.

      It’s another parallel to North Korea, the people there are so use to having to go to extraordinary efforts to be super zealous supporters of the regime for fear of being disappeared that they come to believe it wholeheartedly.

  25. The betrayal that some of you went through is heart wrenching. To DM you were “wretched refuse” to be used and thrown away. I don’t have it in me to write about this just now; it’s a very dark subject and when I do that, it takes a while to shake it off.
    So I cannot think of a more appropriate theme that most would know. There has always been refuge in the Truth; it’s like coming to a free land.

    “Keep, ancient lands, your storied pomp!” cries she
    With silent lips. “Give me your tired, your poor,
    Your huddled masses, yearning to breathe free,
    The wretched refuse of your teeming shore,
    Send these, the homeless, tempest tossed,
    I lift my lamp beside the golden door!”

    Emma Lazarus
    (Partial inscription inside the pedestal of the Statue of Liberty)

    Marty–Better keep the light on, Amigo.

  26. one of those who see

    Watched the videos. Read many of the comments about recurring nightmares. We who haven’t been there need to thoroughly confront that Mike gave up his family to get out of there and Debbie – strong, confident, theta Debbie actually thought about suicide and Amy still has nightmares! Mike mentioned the basement at Pac. I personally know someone who was kept there for a year! Tears in my eyes. This is truly a horror story happening in 2012. I am so happy to be free. I am so happy others are free.
    This nightmare is ending.
    Never again.

  27. I’m trying not to get too worked up, but this shit absolutely blows my mind. As a former Class 5 org staff member (and before starting my internet research into the church directly following the “ex-wives” episode of the Anderson Cooper expose), I had no clue that I was indirectly contributing to this satanic behavior – although for some reason it did not surprise me at all that David Miscavage physically struck his staff based on a past experience with some of his RTC henchmen in the 80s.

    The church IS dead and it’s rotting corpse is stinking to high heaven. Radio Paul – if you’re reading this, do you and Brian have plans for an LRH birthday event protest? If so, I’d be happy to join you as an Independent – I’m sure there are still some staff and public that would be shocked to see me there (although I guess I’m tipping my hand).

    I have no particular insights to add – all I know is that it’s time to turn up the pressure any way we can brothers and sisters!

  28. I keep wondering about all the people who were undergoing abuses, who were not high profile execs, who did not get paid off, and who may still be suffering with no way out. What I can’t understand is why the judge, who listened to Debbie’s testimony, cannot order an investigation. Can a judge use testimony as a basis for an inquiry? Where are the FBI? Is the invest on Scientology Int really closed? How is it that the FBI infiltrated the Mormon Ranch and other such complexes and yet they haven’t, to my knowledge, taken the time to go personally to the Int Base? The laws of the land are supposed to over ride church laws. I guess the church must implode.
    Anyone out there have legal knowledge?

    • It’s not the way the law works. the law is all about somebody bringing legal (law- or knowledge of law) against another, if it is in the law or UCC codes on commerce. the judge is not there to bring actions although they might know of it, it being the laws or codes.

  29. Morelivesthanacat, your post frightened me ! How truth could be buried by this SP Miscavige! He is just a monster. But, always someone would speak up, and that would be it.
    What about if some of his body guards would just put him under arrest. A mutiny? Like on a movie “Sir, you are under arrest.” The one who will do that will save Scientology. Then a juicy com ev. And a 10 pages long SP declare (without disconnection). And a big group engram running and scientologists happy again. But I am dreaming… But there are no exemple in history where SP leaders didn’t finally collapse.

    • If David Miscavige had any integrity he’d save you the bother and step aside to spend the remainder of his days one the church of scientology’s voluntary spiritual retreats, RPFs.

      He has no integrity and being as it’s an ecclesiastical matter I concur that someone or someones need to take charge.

      You might have a spot of bother with Miscavige, Moxon and the bank accounts though. Chances are if push comes to shove he’ll make like a Nazi war criminal and take the money and run.

  30. Marty no need to approve this, it matters not either way, but if you could email me an address to which snail mail corrispondance can be sent as near directly as possible to David Miscavige I’d appreciate it.

    Don’t worry, I’m not going to try sending a letter bomb or something equally stupid, while you probably can’t trace me the FBI/CIA could do so with ease.

    I’ll default to gold base but if you know a more direct address it would be nice to know.

    Thanks. Dean.

    • Oh yeah, Google send anonymous email if you’re concerned I might back trace you; I already know where you live from YouTube though. ;)

  31. Threefeetback: ” Those with actual knowledge of the original DM coup, no matter how well intended, need to do whatever possible to undo it, in light of the catastrophe it has been over the past 26 years.”

    This is what I know as a public scientologist at the time.

    An issue announcing the Pat and Annie Broeker were given the rank of Loyal Officers and that LRH the Commodore was now going to be called “The Admiral” as he had gone up in rank.

    Don’t know the date of this issue but it was an HCOB and came out shortly after LRH’s death in January 26th, 1986.

    My ex and I had someone working for us who was the HAS LA Day. She brought the NEW issue about the Broekers having lied about being made loyal officers to the office. It was BACKDATED to look as if it came out BEFORE the Loyal Officer issue.

    They were within days of each other.

    She said she was ordered to round up every single Loyal Officer issue and shred it.

    Sometime during what must have been utter chaos at Int. Pat Broeker blew WITH the non-codified levels beyond OT VIII —

    I had no idea this had occurred but my ex and I would speculate on what Pat could have done to have gotten declared.

    And then months later a friend of mine who was at Int at the time — confirmed that Pat had blown with the materials. She said the whole place was in utter chaos.

    Somewhere on this blog Marty describes recovering those materials.


  32. Does anyone know what happened to the Grand Opening of the Cincinnati (Florence) Ideal Org that was scheduled for 11 February? The day after the Debbie Cook fiasco I guess Dave was too scared to go out in public. Did the local dignitaries (dupes) back out when they got worried he might order one of his minions to break their fingers? Has it been rescheduled?

  33. Who says he hasn’t already taken the money? He just hasn’t run yet. I was told a story by an IAS terminal that back in the late 80’s the Italian gov’t raided the church in Italy. The IAS had money hidden in other countries and were able to re-set-up shop almost immediately. POB was in office then. So what would keep him from just rolling up those same lines again with church money? As it stands now he doesn’t answer to anyone yet.

  34. There are software packages that evaluate stress in voice patterns.,used as lie detectors for hiring people and evaluating truth.Also books on the subject of reading peoples body movements including eyes blinking and looking down, all of that. Run D.M. event audio and so forth check it out for yourself, have a party with ballons and popcorn to get a load of D.M.,
    if it dosent make you sick.

    Debbie Cook has more courage than all of SEAL Team six put togeather.

  35. You miss the point, Buddhism was used not all Buddhists agreed.

    There was a sub sect of Buddhism generated in Japan called Imperial-way Buddhism. This used the lotus sutra to reveal the majestic essence of national policy. Basically convinced many Japanese Buddhists that Mahayana Buddhism supported the emporer’s work.

    This version of Buddhism was used to facilitate the invasion of China and the war on the USA.

    This is not to say Buddhism is wrong, but it makes the point, even if only partially true, that religion is used as a tool to abuse people.

    Given Buddhisms’ reputation as a none theistic belief system it demonstrates the fact even such faith based systems that manifestly support individual spiritual journies without a god can be abused, including scientology.

    • Here’s the thing while debating philosophy is healthy, like Debbie Cook tried to do in her email, accepting someone else’s point of view as more valid than your own may not be.

      You must always second guess the motives of others. The minute you unquestioningly accept their point of view then you lend youself to being a victim of abuse.

      I want society to be run by concensus, this means as many people as possible thinking for themselves and a lot of dialogue. There is a lot of research that shows a crowd of people is in most cases smarter, makes better choices, than an individiual or a smaller group.

      Whpo knows this might be the ideal L Ron Hubbard wanted, an enablement of totally free thinking beings.

      As free thinking beings no two beings would agree all the time, or the probability would be remote. The result would be a society where relevant groups decided their fate democratically by a vote. The groups would also be fluid as would be borders.

      Humans would decide their fate democratically (democracy+ means voting on policies not on parties) for better or worse and would learn from it or die out; bear in mind the dinosaurs were around for millenia and so far we’ve only been here a few 10,000’s odf years.

      I believe our instinct for survival would make us more pragmatic but then our tribal instinct may yet get the better of us.

      • Dean, you said:

        “You must always second guess the motives of others. The minute you unquestioningly accept their point of view then you lend youself to being a victim of abuse.”

        But, if people are indeed thinking with the greatest good for the greatest number of dynamics” as opposed to the greatest number on a dynamic such as the current CO$.

        Why problem solved. I believe this is called a cleared planet or least a portion of it.

        • In essence you’re correct, a “cleared” planet is pretty much the same as my ideology. Like I said religions tend not to be the problem so much as what is done by them.

          All those who have been in the church of scientology, at least in recent years, believed they were working towards a cleared planet both individually and as a group.

          Those who are now here woke up and realised the reality that you really weren’t and all you were doing was supporting David Miscavige’s self interests.

          The religion of scientology was being abused to get you to work counter to yours and its ideology. It’s common practise I’m afraid.

      • “I want society to be run by concensus, this means as many people as possible thinking for themselves and a lot of dialogue. There is a lot of research that shows a crowd of people is in most cases smarter, makes better choices, than an individiual or a smaller group.”

        this is also called a cleared planet composed of cleared individuals thinking with the greatest good for the greatest number of dynamics.


        Hey, lets all donate every last penny of our current paycheck to the IAS, we got a planet to clear. HAHAHAHAHA

  36. morelivesthanacat

    Ana, I think the difference in the “Sir, you are under arrest.” movie scene is that while the captain may have been manifestly no longer qualified to hold command, and a danger to the ship, he wasn’t running Black Dianetics on the crew over decades. Some of his crew may have feared him, but none had delusions about either his sanity or their own.

    In extreme cases, men like Stalin simply erased the memory of the nation by outright slaughtering the most dangerous of his perceived competitors (politicians, artists, you name it), imprisoning the rest and cowering the rest of the population with a secret police force with eyes “everywhere”. Didn’t millions actually die by the time that was over?

    Then there’s North Korea. And that place has be so dark for so long, hardly anybody in the rest of the world knows what went on in there.

    As for Dave, he’s been erasing the memory of the group in a much more covert and brutal way using Black Dianetics such that the targets of this long campaign have begun to think that they themselves are evil or wrong or deserving of such punishment. He has been systematically eliminating all the old timers and certainly anyone who ever worked with LRH, thus effectively erasing the memory of the group leaving only the new “brown shirts” (Hitler Youth) who grew up not knowing LRH, not knowing what it was like in the old days, and knowing only COB, “the guy who single-handed defeated the IRS”, something that no one or no other organization has ever done before. That’s what we’re supposed to believe. And remember, that 1993 “The War is Over” event was the first event ever that he was the ONLY speaker at. That was supposed to be the day we all realized that HE was in charge. And from that point forward marked the beginning of the end of every single competent seasoned veteran executive that ever existed or who could ever threaten him.

    Someone could correct me if I’m wrong, but I don’t think so.

    Nevertheless, you are still quite right. Regardless of all that, someone could still step up with a small cadre and say, “Sir, you are under arrest.”

    That’s what I meant when I said that hopefully there are a few who never lost their own integrity in the process, and, once they are out from behind barred windows and guarded doors, will then deal with Dave.

    • Y’all need to see ‘V’ for Vendetta, the source of the icpnic Anonymous Guy Falks mask. The dynamics are pretty similar.Look for the common enemy, the promotion of fear, the oppression of free expression. The solution though is pretty radical so not recommended as practical in its literal form. Legal disclaimer this in no way endorses any illegal or terrorist act.

  37. morelivesthanacat

    P.S. Ana, as to those body guards–last I knew they were X-military Special Forces type guys. Bought and paid for. Not in their best interest to arrest the little pain in the ass.

  38. See any parallels?
    Yes, it‘s obvious.
    Same behavior.
    See any difference?
    Well you didn’t get killed if you tried to leave, didn’t you?
    You could have walked out of the door if you really wanted to (like some did).
    In case of the North Vietnamese prison camp you only have two choices:
    Do what they want or get killed.
    In the second one a lot more choices are left as I see it.
    The WORST one is to take money and be quiet, IMHO.

  39. The beauty and the real beast. Here is this classy lady, extremely well
    trained in tech, highly trained in admin, data series etc etc, with years of
    experience in running the largest org in the world and successfully to
    boot and on the other side is this creepy, fat, yellow sweat coloring the
    his collar, trying to make light of the situation. She has worked 27 years
    with fur flying, barely any sleep being responsible for impossible targets
    and still making them, over and over, taking responsibility beyond the
    beyond and this little slime bag has the audacity to even address her,
    even holding out his hand to touch hers. Well at least he was scared
    shitless making mistakes and having to read his notes what to say next.
    He knew he was sitting in front of a legend and was duly cringing

    Debbie you are in class of your own and that is way up there in the

  40. morelivesthanacat

    Yea Mike, my wife stopped by the village shop for a lemon and a newspaper, (the Times of London). We found the article, just like everyone else. Not forewarned. Just regular folk reading the paper. And that’s what got me going today.

  41. Does anyone know how to get rid of this annoying black box saying “share this” in the top right hand corner that covers up part of the video?

  42. Pingback: top 100 |

  43. While ‘secrecy clauses’ are a common, and important, and legitimate, part of setting bona fide disputes between litigating parties, or parties who have not yet filed their law suits, but are entering into settlement in order to avoid litigation, in the 30 years I have been a practicing attorney, I have NEVER seen such a secrecy clause which was not vetted by EACH party’s own, independent, lawyers. I’ve never seen a secrecy clause written by one of the party’s lawyers, presented to the other party while that party was effectively incarcerated by the party who wanted the secrecy, and not allowed to consult with an attorney of his or own choosing.

    Oh, it is true, many times people who are otherwise acting freely and of their own accord … meaning that they can go home at night to their friends and family without fear of being chased and captured or having their life long ‘friends’ shun them … many times such people choose to not consult an attorney and sign such secrecy clauses on their own accord. But, no attorney in his or her right mind would rely on such a secrecy clause.

    In other words, if you want one of these secrecy clauses to have any efficacy, you WANT, and you MAKE SURE, that the other party IN FACT DOES HAVE INDEPENDENT LEGAL REPRESENTATION, and you DOCUMENT THAT FACT, by, in a clause like this which I have recently written, actualy reciting the name of the attorneys representing both sides IN THE DOCUMENT. That way it is clear that both parties had legal counsel and they both did this pursuant to the advice of legal counsel.

    None of these safeguards are present here, obviously..

    There was nothing voluntary about this, and everyone, including the Judge, know this.

    The kicker is this: A few years ago, I, myself, was ‘encouraged’ to ‘freely’ sign a document … just seconds before I was to start some auditing … thrust at me at the last second, without any explanation, which stated that I had been “unethical” and had even done things which were “criminal”. I had no idea why i was being asked to sign this before I could start auditing, and was shocked. I wasn’t, exactly, told that, if I didn’t sign it, I couldn’t get auditing, or that it was an LRH requirement of my auditing (which I later found out it was not) … but the DofP sort of stood there with this imperious posture, stating that I ‘had’ to sign this. Well, what I did was mark out the part about having done “criminal” or “illegal” things, and initialed them … I didn’t have a problem referring to “unethical” things, as that is a techical term in Scientology which can be easily explained. But, later, I was astonished … did the Church require everyone, as of 2006, to sign such things, intimating that if they refused they’d not get auditing, in order to have some “evidence” later that the person was a criminal … and evidence which, since it came BEFORE the religious counseling session was not, itself, protected by the Priest-Penitent Privilege? Hmmm.

    The point is, MANY of us have been forced to sign things very similar to what Debbie Cook signed. We could ALL be called to testify to the Church’s practices in this regard.

    I think it would be lovely to visit Texas about the time of the trial in this matter.

    • Mr. Milton, your sole presence would make a significant difference, you seem to have certainty on this subject.

    • It’s not really surprising or even shocking that a criminal like David Miscavige is trying to use the law and intimidating ‘secrecy clauses’ to enforce his crimes on others.

      What’s shocking is the fact that some people are that BRAINWASHED that they seem to believe that “legal” nonsense could have any other effect than to get himself behind bars.

      That goes way beyond my imagination.

      • When I first made contact with scientology in 1998, I became, very quickly, aware of what seemed to be a nearly universal disdain — even hostility — among ‘Scientologists’ for attorneys (which is surprising, as this is the common group think), the civil law and the judiciary.

        I was puzzled by this — the abject ignorance of the critical value of the American legal system to the very existence and survival of Scientology.

        Perhaps this is due to some things LRH mentions in an off-hand way about judges and how the legal system can bring about the wrong result. But, the fact of the matter is that, without the American … American, mind you, legal system, we would not have Scientology as we know it. We would not have LRH’s brilliance preserved. We would not have something for David Miscavige to destroy.

        Rail all you want about the evils of the “legal system” … and do this especially when the result it seems to get is one that you, in your own considerations, do not like — or even find abhorent. But, the very legal system, the very Judges, the very laws which David Miscavige and his minions have used, are using and will use to destroy Scientology, is what will, in the end, save Scientology from obliteration.

        Marty says as much when he compliments the attorney who saved Debbie Cook’s bacon. … And, there are many, many, many …. many other fine attorneys who endeavor to protect our liberties, our freedoms, or rights to enjoy the fruits of LRH’s works without the vile suppression of David Miscavige.

        Those of you, therefore, who want to defeat Miscavige’s putrid mis-use of the immensely wonderful American Legal System, should put your hands in your pockets, and take out all of that money you wasted on CofS ‘auditing’ and help pay for Debbie Cook’s defense. It will be expensive. And, it will be worth it.

        Continue to disdain the legal system and lawyers and treat them with disrepect and suspicion, and Scientology is lost.

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