Scientology Regression

Michael Moore, President of the International Freezone Association, posted an article on the iscientology blog apparently in protest of the message this blog, and my book What Is Wrong With Scientology?, have been proposing as a course to assure the future relevance of Scientology:  integrate, evolve and transcend.   In his article, What is RIGHT With Scientology, Mr. Moore asserts that the reason Scientology has a bad rap is because:

In today’s western society man is cultured into believing that he is basically bad, cannot be changed for the better, and is a body only run by a brain and all efforts are in the direction of reducing man’s level of responsibility through the encouragement of laziness and increased regulation. Through repetition such mores become the accepted norm and efforts to introduce a more causative approach for man, such as Scientology, hit this head on. Hence it takes time to assimilate a new and radical ‘think’.

“All efforts” in “today’s western society…are in the direction of reducing man’s level of responsibility through encouragement of laziness and increased regulation” and apparently to condition him into believing “he is basically bad, cannot be changed for the better, and is a body run by a brain”?   This statement is so sweeping and absurd as to communicate to the world that Scientologists are uninformed, isolationist cultists.   Perhaps, even fascist cultists, given the  political slant he apparently felt compelled to toss in.  At best, it is a complete effect point of view, rivalling the victimhood that Scientology Inc. instils in its members to be totally certain and right in the face of the most fantastic wrongnesses.

Mr. Moore goes on to assert:

There are many philosophies and religions with promises either based upon behavior or practicing certain rituals to assure oneself a place among the gods so to speak. But not one of these religions or philosophical ideologies or practices, prior to Scientology, attempted to increase the abilities, responsibility and causative levels of an individual using a practical application of the philosophy in the form of a technology, the techniques of auditing and the bridge over which to travel to attain higher states of being in a measured and predicable fashion. On the contrary it was a case of pray hard or meditates (sic) hard and leave everything to the gods.

Does anyone have an idea what religion and philosophy is promising people a ‘place among the gods’?  Ironically, of all religions, this claim fits Scientology more than any other, what with the hyperbole of ‘powers’ and total ‘causation’ to be had by following its rituals and behavior.  His sum up of every religion and philosophy outside of Scientology as ‘pray[ing] hard or meditate[ing] hard and leave everything to the gods’ is far more ignorant and bigoted than anything that would possibly emanate even from David Miscavige’s Scientology Inc.

Moore’s  article more than bristles at the repeated suggestions on this blog that Scientologists recognize the similarities between it and other practices (which incidentally, never once imply that a single Scientology auditing procedure be altered).  His implication that there is no possible gain to be had by the hundreds of millions of people on this planet who in some form or another confront their minds is indicative to me – aside from serving to make Scientologists look arrogant and narrow-minded – that he does not understand the first thing about how Scientology auditing actually works.  He apparently believes it has to do with the ritual and not the act of seeing something exactly as-is, so as to as-is it.  Yes, yes.  The ritual is remarkably workable.  It is directed and patterned and performed  with an exacting discipline that is extremely effective.  But the ritual does not blow the charge – the individual observing, or witnessing, exact time, place, form and event is what blows charge.  To say that witnessing never happened anywhere else in the world ever is to tell the world you are a pack of mislead idiots who never did anything worthwhile with your mind and yourself as a spirit.  I got news for Michael, that attitude got Scientology where it is today.

Are there any practicing Scientologists out there who see these types of public statements as uninformed, bigoted, and/or arrogant?

Are there any practicing Scientologists who believe it is a wise course to attempt to integrate, evolve and/or transcend?

I really would like to know the answers to these questions.

I don’t think piling on or launching assaults on the alleged character deficiencies of me or Michael will contribute to anything constructive.  I really think we need answers to the two questions posed.

360 responses to “Scientology Regression

  1. Moore’s article more than bristles at the repeated suggestions on this blog that Scientologists recognize the similarities between it and other practices (which incidentally, never once imply that a single Scientology auditing procedure be altered).
    Its true. As much as your willing to grant beingness and acknowlege the usefullness and truths of so many other practices, you dont suggest that anyone adopt them to make the tech work better. You know the tech works and how to use it. Your not afraid of other practices or traditions. Thats the difference between you and Mr. Moore.

  2. Integrate, transcend, and evolve. Moore should rejoin the Co$.

  3. Michael Moore, President of the International Freezone Association seems to be vying for the soon to be and inevitable vacant position of COB RTC.

    Good luck Mr. Moore on all your lofty endeavors. I guess the title of ‘president’ wasn’t good enough.

  4. 1) “uninformed, bigoted, and/or arrogant?” A little harsh. But, essentially true from my point of view.
    2) “integrate, evolve and/or transcend?” As an enlightened Scientologist (meaning out of the Miscavige implant station) you should take the opportunity to personally transcend because staying where you are (at the exit point) means you’ll have yang up the ying yang…. Ha.. sorry for the corny joke.

  5. Answers to:

    Question one: To think that Mr. Moore is stating such things in 2013 is astonishing. He is creating the type of effect on me that former child star, Kirk Cameron (Growing Pains), has created with his hard core Christianity campaign. And the only one who doesn’t see it is himself and a few followers. That said, although Mr. Moore is an adult and responsible for his own condition, the correct target begins with LRH. Unfortunately, this hard-to-believe attitude, arrogance and viewpoint began with LRH in the latter years of his life and work, so, to a degree, I understand it, as blind and out of touch as it is in modern society.

    Question two: To integrate, evolve and transcend is as natural to a being as having steak one night and chicken the next. Who wants to eat JUST steak every night for all eternity? Or even a week, for that matter. Mr. Moore’s broad and utterly incorrect/unsuported generalities are juvenile and ignorant. He is undoing that which he thinks he is doing. He is also leading people into a trap, which is exactly what he is in currently. And said trap is in his own mind. As Jason Beghe said, we do it to ourselves. Amazing to witness, now that I’m free from all of this stuff.

  6. For me, it’s all about op terming, treason conditions and enemy conditions. Another thumb symbol revolt. I ask myself,

    “Who / What would oppose Marty?” ____________ (item)

    “What is the purpose of ______________ (item)” ?

    Really, as we are simply a group of writers, seeking to understand the past and write a better future here.

    Perhaps when Michael, and the others grouping to op term, harm attack and suppress, put in a few decades working for Scientology, learn the craft of auditing, audit people up the bridge, as you have, they can see it from a different viewpoint. You have been a professional Scientologist on every front. You were not escorted out of the Church by armed guards.

    A while back someone we knew, who had not been able to keep a relationship together for more than a few months, during four decades of auditing ladies, criticized us, for not having more extended family influence in our lives.

    I said, “When you have kept a marriage together for 18 years as we have,
    get back to me.”

    Some people are just unaware of conditions or where they are, or who they really are, or they can not confront math. They can’t add your value, then add their value, and put the two sums together to see which has the greater value.

    It is sad that none of those people will ever have the opportunity, to walk a mile in your shoes. Even after watching you do it. They can’t even copy that.

    There are a lot of soldiers confused as to the purpose of a soldier. The think the product is conflict, chaos, civil war.

    The true purpose of a soldier is to bypass. Handle the situation and any danger in it.

    Nothing more annoying than compulsive soldiers who have not had product clearing. They CREATE situations and DANGER conditions.

  7. Answers from an outsider:

    1. I see them as uniformed, bigoted and arrogant because he’s claiming he knows absolutely and in effect saying nothing else is right; this is a common problem for many religions.

    As an atheist I don’t claim to be right in that I don’t know if god exists or not but I’ve reasoned that all religious doctrines are demonstrably flawed. As far as scientology is concerned I can accept that it works for some people but not to the point of making them super beings since I’ve never seen such a person (except perhaps Derren Brown who’s remarkably perceptive but also an atheist and doesn’t claim anything super natural). I think it’s a case of horses for courses, some may respond better to Cognitive Behavioural Therapy for instance; belief in the technique applied is a substantial part of its effectiveness.

    2. Point I’ve made before is that religions are fossilised philosophies. If scientology evolves, integrates and transcends it will be a philosophy not a religion. That will be a good thing. Build on what you feel L Ron Hubbard started.

  8. My beef with this latest blog entry of yours is that in checking what Michael Moore said I had to go to iscientology which raises their stats. Feeding into the delusion that anyone NEW checks that site.

    But then as one commenter said to Michael Moore — it’s in vogue to natter about scientology (which would include those “who saintly follow” scientology)

    • Laughter! Those who are truly “Saintly”, have nothing to worry about! As long as one is keenly aware of his conditions!

      The “no bashing pure theta” blog has been revamped into a blog to restimulate others and fair game Marty.

      A real good party! Perhaps they have overlooked a few things but what the hell? If you don’t wake up with a hangover, a headache, and your wallet missing, what kind of party was it anyway?

  9. Michael Moore only has the ability to parrot.

    That is a 0.5 tone level.

    He does not have the ability to evaluate or think for himself.

    He has not read: How to study a science, or if he did read it, he did not understand it.

    Without reading, understanding and properly applying that data, it is not possible to understand scientology.

    Therefore Michael Moore does not understand scientology. Understanding is a 3.0 to 4.0 tone and up tone level.

    He can only parrot scientology, a .05 action.

    See Hubbard chart of human evaluation line 0.5.

    (It would do a world of good for everyone to refresh by carefully rereading all the basic books.)

    (But I also find that many scientologists have no to poor understanding of the rudiments of the basic Dianetics and scntlgy books or they are glib at best. It is evident in their words. It is doubtful if some have been read at all.)

    Dio

  10. I find the direction of this blog quite refreshing. I am soooo tired of dogma, and now-you’re-supposed-to thinking.

    I have been able to let scientology go. At the same time, I’ve come to a new appreciation for it and its place in my life and the benefits I’ve received from it. That may sound contradictory to some. So be it.

    I think Micheal is trying to defend his mental turf. I fully appreciate that idea and that behavior. I was there for the longest time and have compassion for him.

    However, stringing together platitudes is no substitute for articulating an actual thought. Having actual thoughts is quite exhilarating. You become source of your own life. Mental cutting and pasting of LRH references is a skill we all developed, but its limitations are self-evident only after you quit doing it.

    “Just do what LRH says and that’s all you have to do to have a successful life.” Well, the idea that maybe LRH didn’t have it ALL figured out is one that can shake that stable datum, one that may have been used to guide his/her life for decades and depending on how “invested” one is in that stable datum being right, having it invalidated can create a horrendous state of mind in the person. One eventually recovers and adopts new personal guidelines for living, or one can snap back into the old camp and defend harder. It takes courage to soldier on, and continue to seek the truth, as uncomfortable as that may be at times.

    And what is that “truth”? It is what is true for you. (And by the way, my interpretation of “what is true for you” is not some whimsical idea that one can just disagree with things like gravity, or historical events, or things that are demonstrably true, etc. That would be denial and not-isness. To me, the statement, “What is true for you” means that you do not allow other viewpoints, no matter how persuasive or forceful, get you to accept things as true that you just can’t see as so. The little boy that declared that the emperor, indeed, had no clothes was maintaining what was true for him. That’s what I’m talking about.)

  11. Sorry Marty… I can’t answer the two questions you posed.

    I can say this though.

    It is precisely because of behaviour like Mr. Moore’s that I stopped practicing or having anything to do with Scientology a loooong time ago.

    It is more than a little ironic that I would consider myself more of a what Hubbard (in his more lucid moments) hoped a person could become today than I ever was when I took heed of such ignorant arrogance back in the day.

    I can’t help but wonder if Moore and his friends have truly sat down and thought through where exactly they are headed. I’d like to think they’re not completely stupid but I just can’t get my head round what exactly they hope to achieve or improve in this world other than enlarging their own sense of self importance. And who will benifit from that? Or more importantly how is that going to “get us out of this trap”?

    Dunno… Stumped really… I’ll just stop typing now…:-(

  12. To answer your questions:
    1. Yes.
    2. Yes.

    I agree that getting people to confront and as-is is the essence of getting better. As well as being able to communicate to someone who is not invalidating, evaluating etc. I think LRH is really the master at creating techinques where one is able to do this.
    Having said that, I think good friends often talk to each other with care and charge blows. Someone once asked me “Don’t you feel sorry for wogs who never got on division of TA?” I didn’t realize it at the time, but now I would say that it is bullshit that a wog never got a division of TA. I don’t think you need to be on a meter to get TA or have a blowdown. So, I think there are lots of people looking and communicating and have cognitions and getting better. Does Scientology have the monopoly on that?? Hell no.

    His statements do come across as arrogant.

    • That’s right, Tony!

      For example, Jim Beam gives me SEVERAL divisions of TA. Or was that T and A?

      Hell, I gotta stop drinkin’!

      • Laughter! Jim Beam praline sauce (to pour over bread pudding).

        PRALINE SAUCE:
        16 tbsp. (2 sticks) butter
        3⁄4 cup light brown sugar
        1 cup chopped shelled pecans
        1⁄4 cup Jim Beam bourbon

        Melt butter in a medium, heavy-bottomed saucepan over medium heat. Add sugar and stir with a wooden spoon until sugar melts and mixture begins to boil, about 5 minutes. Stir in pecans and Jim Beam bourbon. Spoon warm sauce over bread pudding.

    • Watch Tony audit an audience of “wogs”! The T.A. is flying!

      • Every Scientologist should see Tony Robbins at work. He is awesome. There is nothing here that contradicts anything in Scientology. However, it sure does complement it. You can easily see in Scientological terms what Robbins is doing here. The BIG difference is Tony is DOING it. Another big difference is that if a corporate type is caught reading Tony R. whoa! Other practices! Give me a cussing break. Tony is awesome and we can learn from him.

        • Grasshopper,

          You say “there is nothing here that contradicts scn”. Which means that a person should not or must not look at anything that contradicts scn, or it means that anything that contradicts scn is wrong.

          That is 0.5 thinking. It is impossible to ever understand scientology that way. All you can learn by operating on that data is how to be a better parrot.

          That idea or viewpoint, is totally opposite of logic 8, and the message in the article “How to study a science. The message is to evaluate what is taught in scn against all other data of comparable magnitude in the known universe. Data of comparable magnitude means any datum that helps man over come his problems, make him a better person, helps him understand himself and the world around him, helps him get along better with his fellow man, helps him maximize his full potential. That includes all religions, all spiritual teachings, all philosophies, all personal and professional development programs, and anything else.

          When you study and evaluate all that data against scn then and only then, can you understand scn. This is 4.0 thinking.

          If you have not done that, you have failed scn.

          Dio

          • Grasshopper (Mark P)

            0.5 thinking? I’m not crying here. I’ve seen you use the term 0.5 thinking before. From your description I assume you really mean .05 thinking – apathy. Also, read logics 10 and 11. And 17. Hell, and the rest.
            I made the comment to point out that there is a lot of info out there that aligns with and expands upon Scientology.

            • Grasshopper,

              Yes, I realize you did as you say.

              And I failed to ack that.

              But I took liberty to go into making the points I did.

              My apology.

              Just too much to say and do sometimes and on occasion somethings fall through the cracks.

              Dio

    • Hey Tony. I’ve been reflecting on this comment for a couple of days. It reminded me of something I found deeply, deeply troubling, and I realized what it was.

      Many years ago at an event Heber, of all people, made a very similar comment about people outside of Corp Scn not getting “a single division of TA”. Granted the comment was made in the context of “the psychs” – his favorite subject for parody – and boy, he was superb at that.

      But the clear implication was that the only “gain” to be had, and by extrapolation, the only spiritual benefit to be had by anyone, was by and through Scientology auditing. Even as blinkered and conditioned as I was then, I knew there was something very wrong about this. I thought about the times I had spent totally keyed out camping with friends in the wilderness on the Isle of Skye; the moment when laying back on a pitch black night gazing at the stars I fleetingly “got” what the universe was really all about and was overwhelmed with joy and grief simultaneously; the first time I properly kissed a girl aged 13; going exterior while reading “Jonathon Livingston Seagull” [Beautiful short story by Richard Bach]. Yet all this counted for nothing, as it wasn’t “TA action on the meter”???

      More latterly, the gains I got starting with The Truth Rundown and continuing almost daily through this and other blogs and books – reuniting with and making the most fantastic friends I could imagine; and the daily indescribable joy of coming home to see one or the other of my beautiful girls run up to me shouting “Daddy!”

      What’s this go to do with the OP post? Absolutely everything in my opinion. I don’t give a damn if what Michael Moore says is contentious to some and who agrees or disagrees or whatever. I don’t really give a damn what Marty says except in as much as I can use it or not as I see fit. I’ve taken back MY life. No more gurus. No more “only road outs” It’s time to move on. And I thank each and every one who is contributing to that. No doubt there is plenty of wisdom LRH gave that can be used to make the world a better place, but i now see it as body of work that can and SHOULD be studied alongside any number of other subjects and activities. In isolation it has only bred isolationists and fundamentalists and has failed miserably.

  13. Q1 “Are there any practicing Scientologists out there who see these types of public statements as uninformed, bigoted, and/or arrogant?”

    To put this in the lightest possible form of truth I can:

    These statements are from someone in a trap even worse than the trap from which they thought they were escaping. Their statements express that clearly.

    Are there any practicing Scientologists who believe it is a wise course to attempt to integrate, evolve and/or transcend?

    Impossible to avoid (Big gut laugh follows.).

    Just following this blog has been amazing. Going out and applying the best of “who I might become” has been remarkable fun.

    And I love watching the babies grow.

    I’m learning to appreciate the important things,

    Hope this helps,
    Vic

  14. Are there any practicing Scientologists who believe it is a wise course to attempt to integrate, evolve and/or transcend?
    I agree with this 100%.
    Absolute nonsense that is fashionable to discuss the negative.
    The darker side of Scientology Inc and all the stories have been under SUPPRESS for decades as it is not acceptable within the confines of Scientology INC to say, think or feel anything that now surfaces on the web.
    The suppress is off and people need to HEAL by saying exactly what they feel. Too bad the Church made it unsafe to think and say what is now being said on the internet.
    The boomerang effect:
    Radical Official Scientology has been willing for decades to LIE and cover up anything, even crimes, for the sake of “GOOD PR.” Redefining LIES as “acceptable truth” “shore story” “need to know basis white lie” the boomerang is that “church” PR has never been worse.
    NOT integrating, NOT evolving, NOT transcending sends Scientology Inc down the shute, all by itself without anyone lifting a finger to assist the trajectory. I say this with certainty. A stunning new development in recent 2-3 weeks make me state emphatically “God is on the side of the Critics, the bitter defrocked apostates and the declared SPs.” :wink: :wink: :wink:

    • In case anyone is rejoicing at differences between Indies and so on ~~
      Any breakaway faction from a religion will continue to schism like a fractal.
      See Christianity and the 35,000 different varieties thereof..
      Observe orthodox Judaism from what the American Jew practices and type in “Kabbalah” to geth the idea…

      • Karen #1
        Awesome!

      • Karen, this is too much! :) I have a solution. Why don’t I go down to a local church and get some security checks just for the ethics fun and stuff? :) Maybe it’s me? :) Maybe I’m the one who is PTS! :)

        • Lawrence dear ~~
          Toddle down to your nearest Ideal org.
          But tease them first:
          Phone ahead and say you got this large inheritance and that you are a
          *Trust Fund* baby.
          With all this money you want to stop using Sugar.baby.com and come clean
          on these desires of the flesh. Tell them you want to purchase 12 intensives of sec checks at a time, but ask them “Is there a discount if I purchase 1000 hours of Sec checks immediately?” lol: lol: lol:
          Also be sure to state you want to raise your IAS status and you were wondering what donation you needed to give to be on the cover of IMPACT magazine with David Miscavige….
          Think big ! Imagine the possibilities of a $5 million donation !
          Do I make myself clear ? :mrgreen:

      • The civil wars attempted in the last year:

        Turn the Indies against the Freezoners.

        Turn the Freezoners against the Indies.

        Turn the Freezoners against one another.

        Turn the Ethiers against the Oracles.

        Split up the Indies and turn them on one another.

        Looks like the people that took the bait, can be counted on one hand.

      • Even better, Karen… see Wicca and it’s individualistic style of interpretation and application. In the pre-Christian era that was a dogmatic religion, pretty much like Catholicism — make one think, really!

    • I’m with you K#1.

      • Mrinder :smile:

        • I had so much to say… but well hell you said it far better than thee Karin. :–)
          Marty has a particular way to delineate the forbidden details, as hard as he is sometimes to follow, the devil (truth) is indeed in the detail. Once fully looked at and understood, regardless of source, the truth is impossible to deny.

    • Because we seek the truth. Because the truth sets people free.

  15. I would suggest to let it be, isn’t it better? What is the point of arguing on the point of view of your fellows especially if they are contributing with honesty to what they believe is useful to others? Transcending I believe should allow to allow different points of view and see the value in the diversity. Also I am sure that Mr Moore has been able to contribute positively in the diffusion of a sane scientology practice, I would praise him for that. Regards

    • martyrathbun09

      The points of view are freely shared. If you read my book or much of this blog you will understand precisely why I do not let such wounds fester. A re-creation of Scientology Inc will spell the demise of the use of the discoveries of Hubbard.

      • While i take the rants of Mr. Moore with a great yawn, Marty, i do believe that you pointing such things out, helps to bring them to the fore and “as-is” them for the indie community. A form of group auditing.

        I dont know him personally, but i think its likely he has been doing yoemans work to keep SCN alive outside the cluches of mother church., and for that i am greatful. Anyone doing so, with good intentions has my admiration.

        Perhaps he see’s you as a jonny-come-lately who has stolen some of his thunder. I think many in his position might let their ego react a little to reactively. In some ways its understandable, if to some degree destructive.

        But this is the beauty of Protestant Scientology. We can actually have these discutions regarding our opinions on SCN and everything involved thereto.

        That said, SCN can either struggle and be ever attacked and held in suspicion despite its good works (not unlike the jews who, though good and productive citizens wherever they have settled thru the ages, have also held themselves apart and elite), or it can see its fellow humans as worthy of their fellowship as equals and partners and flourish as part of all of humanity.

  16. 1) Answering the first question, I would say more ‘uninformed’ than anything, and probably he is also speaking out of some frustration. The field is a bit chaotic and it will get worse before it gets better.

    I think Michael has worked hard to emulate the ideals of the founder that better fit another place and time (which refers to #2 – integrate). Too many “Indies” are obsessively working to “make Ron’s postulates stick” – forgetting that “a postulate is only as valuable as it is workable.”

    But he has proposed and organized a group (APIS) for practitioner standards and that’s not a bad thing – even if that’s not -my- thing.

    2) We very definitely need to integrate and evolve. Whenever I come across a client winning with “another practice” I seek for ways to supplement and utilize that, rather than compete with it. There are other cleansing/detox programs out there that work safer and better for certain individuals, and there are highly valuable techniques – example Taoist sexual technique for helping one handle this area where confessional/FPRD has not fully done the trick.

    Integrate.

  17. I will have a closer look at what Moore has to say and get a clearer picture, but I don’t personally see a threat in Mr Moore’s position heading towards a new Scientology Inc. I appreciate your staying in guard on the subject, I appreciate even more a moltitude of people doing the same from different angles. Thanks for replying.

  18. Marty,
    In my humble opinion you are correct that the arrogant and bigoted approach used by messianic religious philosophies, including Scientology, has been and will continue to be a failure. It is the nature of the human ego to insist on enforcing it’s “rightness” upon others. This has and always will create conflict because those who are being imposed upon have the same ego demands. The more I have studied the ancient philosophies the more I realize that there is a common fundamental truth which prevails: the separateness which we perceive between ourselves, others and the physical universe is an illusion. All things perceived and un-perceived manifest from a primordial, unified field of conscious energy. The Tao refers to it as “WuJi”, Hundu’s the “Nirguna Brahman”, Judism the “Ein Sof”, the Greek’s the “Monad” and modern physics is now acknowledging the “quantum field” as the source of all mass. The point of all this is that integration and transcendence is not just a good idea. it is the natural order or divine algorithm of creation. The problems of man will not be solved until enough enlightened souls embrace universally understanding, compassion, forgiveness and love. It has been said that “no man can save another”. Each of us must do the hard work of overcoming our baser instincts and embrace the divine self within. Scientology has something to offer each of us in this endeavor, but it will be much more affective when used as a means to an end and not an exclusive universal truth excluding all others.

    • martyrathbun09

      Thanks for the wisdom, Brad.

    • “It is the nature of the human ego to insist on enforcing it’s “rightness” upon others…….the separateness which we perceive between ourselves, others and the physical universe is an illusion.”

      I read a book a while back that presented me with an entirely different perspective of the ego (defined as a synthetic thought system) and how it relates to, more accurately, reinforces and maintains with a purpose, the illusion of separateness. It was all quite fascinating for me and as it turned out, I ended up integrating a big chunk of this perspective. Rather than me rattle on about it I’ll just tell you the name of the book. The Disappearance of the Universe by Gary Renard. Btw, I never pick the books I read, instead, they always pick me. I can’t say how that happens it just happens.

      …………….

      “Scientology has something to offer each of us in this endeavor, but it will be much more affective when used as a means to an end and not an exclusive universal truth excluding all others.”

      +1 to the nth power

    • Brad… Nice… Not sure I could have so eloquently offered what you have but it is very much what I would have loved to say myself.

      Can I add my oh so simple version of that?

      We’re one tribe.

      Let’s ditch the Amnesia.

      Use your mind and not your greed.

      Not my words of course… Shamelessly plagiarised from the ever so talented Black Eyed Peas…😊

    • Thank you for sharing your viewpoint! This is my favorite line in your comment: “Each of us must do the hard work of overcoming our baser instincts and embrace the divine self within.” I do even doubt sometimes if Scientology is a help in a bigger picture. Maybe we should really make it on our own – growing by overcoming, not by been served a rid to the other side. I think the teachings of Scn and other techniques are good only they give you the TOOL to obtain a knowledge. As soon as they start teaching you LIFE and WAY OF LIVING – it is no help anymore, but a disservice. I don’t think that truth [obtained by any means] will set you free, wrong wording. It is an ability to see, to find the truth will set you free. Not the not the data, the “right knowledge, but the ability to find it. That is why “scientology” – knowing HOW to learn – tool,to find knowledge, not the knowledge itself. And when it became the data of knowledge it took the wrong turn in my view. I think, Hubbard shared way too much. Or that what he shared was taken way too seriously, too solidly, too unquestionably, He put on the table all that delicious food for the mind, that we enjoy eating and some got addicted to. Mistake! Tasting that “food” was fine, exchanging the “recepies” – fine. But getting addicted to it – no, no, no! The point is to learn how to find and make you own “food” for the mind. That will set us free.

  19. I think Michael is in need of a little dose of the quote he introduces his article with:

    “We have long said that that which is not admired tends to persist. If no one admires a person for being right, then that person’s “brand of being right” (will persist, no matter how mad it sounds).”

    Perhaps someone should just let him know he is totally right about this, and that he has been right about it even before he left the church when this sort of narrow-minded thinking was inculcated.

    Fundamentalism is not pretty no matter what the denomination is. Every fundamentalist, from Pentecostal snake handlers to Jihadists to Ultra Orthodox Zionists are convinced they have the only way. And certainly Michael is right (at least from our perspective) that there is a technology in Scientology that sets it apart. But ask the other fundamentalists and everyone has their good reason why they are right too. Who needs a technology when Jesus, Allah or Yahweh or Krishna or whoever will do it FOR you. If Scientologists believe these people need to open their eyes, there should at least be a willingness on our behalf to peek out of the bubble just a little to see if there is any light outside our cave. Wouldn’t seem to be too much to ask enlightened beings….

    Even more unfortunate than his article in my opinion are the comments it engendered. More militant than Michael, some of those commenters are asserting that its become fashionable to “natter” about Scientology. While Michael speaks of new ideas and moving forward, the whole thing conjures up images of the priests who asserted the sun revolved around the earth, deriding anyone who dared say it was the other way round, while claiming to be the truly enlightened ones because they could see the sun rise in the east and set in the west and had the technology of telescopes that showed the stars also revolved around the earth.

    Enlightenment and spiritual peace is a journey of self discovery. Nobody can tell you how to be enlightened. You cannot pay to board a bus to take you there. You have to make your own way. And it is a hindrance to really accomplishing that objective when you believe someone can do it to you or for you and there is nothing more involved in it than duplicating someone ELSE and when you have fully achieved duplication somehow you will magically arrive. That is not my “R”.

    And I feel for anyone, Scientologist, Christian, Buddhist, Mormon, Jew, Hindu, Muslim or anything inbetween who thinks they no longer have to THINK, but have got it all down to blind obedience and acceptance. Of course, by definition, that is NOT a Scientologist. But in today’s world, it certainly passes for one….

  20. I read the piece on iScientology (and Marty, I suggest you link to it from this post, since you are discussing it).

    To answer your questions:

    “Are there any practicing Scientologists out there who see these types of public statements as uninformed, bigoted, and/or arrogant?”

    You may argue the fact of whether or not I am a practicing Scientologist – I do apply Scientology to my life daily – but, I find this uninformed mostly, and somewhat arrogant. Actually, I will use a stronger word – it is ignorant. Not bigoted, but ignorant.

    If you are going to do a comparative analysis of Scientology vs. something else, then at least know of what you speak. For example, there are techniques in psychotherapy that work or at least help people (for example, Eye Movement Desensitization for PTSD: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eye_movement_desensitization_and_reprocessing ). I will bet you $100 most Scientologists have never heard of this. There is also the Myers-Briggs type indicator and supplemental material that is also very helpful. http://www.myersbriggs.org/

    And also, while it is true that there is a lot of materialism in Western Society, there is a lot of spirituality, as well. There are a lot of Christians, Hindus, Muslims, and even humanists who don’t buy the materialistic point of view.

    My point is that broadly tearing down another philosophy or technology to advance one’s own is a really bad way to forward your own position.

    But, more importantly, I personally know that the case can be made for how right Scientology is without comparing it to any other religion or technology. So why compare?

    “Are there any practicing Scientologists who believe it is a wise course to attempt to integrate, evolve and/or transcend?”

    Yes, I do. To me, one of the most difficult things I had to accept when I re-evaluated Scientology is that it is NOT complete. It just isn’t. And my proof of this is the current state of the Church, and the fact that we are seeing OT’s (both inside and outside the church) die without transcending or operating independent of the body. Something is missing, and it ain’t Super Power.

    Now, there is a hell of a lot right with Scientology – and I agree with Moore on that (and my assumption is that you, Marty, would agree as well, as would most if not all Indies). To my mind, the way to promote it is to cussing do it, and to educate people as to what it is.

    I think it is essential for people to learn continually. And I mean this across the boards, not just with Scientology.

    Mark Patterson

  21. My personal opinion is that merely pointing out what’s wrong with someone/something won’t get us anywhere. I don’t know what Michael has in mind or what he wants, but there are chances that he has similar hopes, goals and purposes with Scientology as many other regular visitors of this blog AND his website do. I’m NOT defending what he says – I’m trying to defend his right to say what he thinks without being blasted for it. Especially in such a harsh manner I see here in the comments. Marty’s comments about him are understandable but borderline too harsh for me, Dio and Tom Gallagher go way overboard in my opinion.

    The guy operates an independent Scientology portal and gives away checksheets and stuff that you probably can’t get from the church if you are here. Is he really a bad, bad man, who needs to be put down? If you disagree with something he says, can’t you just say “I disagree with what he is saying about X for reasons Y and Z” and present your own viewpoint, recommendation, whatever? I am interested in what Marty has to say, what Michael has to say and what YOU (any of you commenting here) have to say and I can make up my own mind about what I see without character assassination attempts to “help” me shape how I should think about some other person. I like the viewpoints, I don’t like the judgementalism.

    I appreciate all of you guys and I am here to see/participate in constructive communication. I am not interested in Scientologists sitting judgement over other Scientologists. That’s too similar to what corporate scn does and we can all see where that road leads.

    Can we lose the “I’m right and look how wrong that other guy is” attitude and maybe do something constructive about outpoints we notice instead of reacting to them and handing out instant judgments? If we continue this way, we will end up with 1000 different little scientology fractions all fighting the other 999 that “obviously got it all wrong”.

    You could probably find something you can agree with in what another person is doing and just agree to disagree with him on the rest. That doesn’t automatically make him a bad person and you a good person. Or the other way around.

    Can we please stop asserting our own rightness and proving it with our intolerance of other people’s opinions?

    MY Scientology has fun, progress, peace, respect, tolerance and understanding. I would like to see more of those and less of the opposite.

    • I second that motion!
      Hey, I got an idea. Let’s try this:

      Get Together

      by The Youngbloods. From Easy Rider

      Get Together by The Youngbloods
      Love is but the song we sing,
      And fear’s the way we die
      You can make the mountains ring
      Or make the angels cry
      Know the dove is on the wing
      And you need not know why
      C’mon people now,
      Smile on your brother
      Ev’rybody get together
      Try and love one another right now
      Some will come and some will go
      We shall surely pass
      When the one that left us here
      Returns for us at last
      We are but a moments sunlight
      Fading in the grass
      C’mon people now,
      Smile on your brother
      Ev’rybody get together
      Try and love one another right now
      If you hear the song I sing,
      You must understand
      You hold the key to love and fear
      All in your trembling hand
      Just one key unlocks them both
      It’s there at your command
      C’mon people now,
      Smile on your brother
      Ev’rybody get together
      Try and love one another right now
      Right now
      Right now!

        • Thank you. So, how about it, people? Marty?
          How about “Right Now”.
          It’s as good a time as any. :-)

          • Nice idea, wrong target. Could/would/did you go ask the other guy to do that?

            “I don’t know what Michael has in mind or what he wants, but …”

            All this assumption I see about the good intention of the other guy is just making me wrinkle my forehead so much that my eyeballs are getting wrinkles too I think. Wait let me look in the mirror …

            OK it is confirmed. Also I can now cancel my perm appointment. Phew …

            Can you imagine a place where it would be safe for you to assume that some people have hidden agendas?

            In any conflict there is usually a third party.

            If you think about that it is very telling about our susceptibility to outside influence.

            I have a feeling that “Who or what made Michael write what he did?” is the million dollar question here.

      • Beautiful song, one of my all time favorites and it does say what needs to be said.

        To Answer Marty’s question:
        The ‘why’ given by Mr.Moore for the unpopularity of Scientology is a wrong item. In fact, my experience is that people are naturally attracted to Scientology when introduced in a way which aligns with their thinking or their life in some way. Creating ARC is not something the church has done, but rather it continually succeeds in marginalizing its own members as well as the rest of the population through arrogance and obsessive control. I have found that most people who follow a religion do so because they strive for higher states of being, or knowledge even if means waiting until death of the body or obedience to a God. The fact that MEST is pushed as the ultimate reality doesn’t stop people from seeking higher states. Therefore, religion is a sacred field to many people and Scientology could have been accepted in that category if it had truly reached out to others and showed interest in their well being.
        As Phil S. video reveals, Scientology went into a direction which gained its reputation as ‘money grubbing” and it promoted hyperbolic gains not based on actuality.

    • I agree. Let’s focus on the sides and goals we have in common, rather then ones that separate us. This way we can help each other. Isn’t it enough fighting already?

  22. I practice Scientology as an auditor, case supervisor, supervisor,etc.
    I trained up to Class VI C/S.
    This is not to mention other courses (admin).
    I can’t say that I don’t understand Michael’s viewpoint as I held similar views for many years – until I began to realize that, apart from tech application, I was trapped in my own ignorance.
    Man, I was so arrogant that no one could tell me anything.

    Once I began to see what was really going on I began to see the damage I’d caused to myself and others. That’s when I started studying and finding out at least something about the alternatives that are being used by folks who are trying to evolve. Even though I don’t agree with some things it is no longer a reactive disagreement. At least now I have more understanding and empathy for “wogs” and for other ex-Scientologists.
    Having said that, I can say that there are truths in most religions that I have and am studying and I see no reason to have any ridges on any of them.
    I am totally confident that I can involve myself with anyone of any practice, with complete ARC and not lose one iota of confidence in the tech that I trained in.

    Actually, my application of the tech has and is continuing to improve – probably because of increased understanding (ARC).
    I have a long way to go yet, but I’m on my way.

    Marty, I read both your books and found them to be very helpful to me.
    I am definitely looking forward to the big one.

    • Phil,
      you wrote : “I am totally confident that I can involve myself with anyone of any practice, with complete ARC and not lose one iota of confidence in the tech that I trained in.”

      Congratlations, this is a remarkable achievement ! Light years above Co$ fanatism and SerFacdom.

      And most people will love you for that because of your genuine interest and ability to grant beingness.

    • Phil, Exactly! One can be a devout Catholic and still get gains in auditing. One can do yoga, meditate, pray to Allah, eat cheeseburgers and many other things and still make gains in session. Auditing undercuts A LOT of life.

  23. Marty,
    1) Yes, and please let it go already!
    2) Yes, please Yes.

  24. Another religion that offers its followers a “place among the Gods” is Mormonism. Perhaps it’s just a coincidence that Mitt Romney’s attitude that 47% of Americans are freeloaders is right in line with Mr. Moore’s “all efforts are in the direction of reducing man’s level of responsibility through the encouragement of laziness and increased regulation.”

    But the Vikings also expected a place among the Gods if they exhibited sufficient expertise and bravery in battle. I’m just wondering, does that count as attempting “to increase the abilities, responsibility and causative levels of an individual using a practical application of the philosophy in the form of a technology”?

  25. What I find odd is that I believe that Michael Moore was one of the people who dog piled on me one time when I refused to swear an Oath to KSW in an Indie group that someone threw me into.
    Now as far as KSW goes, I think it doesn’t mince words about things like “the Freezone”. Personally , I don’t have anything against the Freezone. I say live and let live. But don’t go getting all high and mighty on Marty and others if you are in the Freezone. I am not sure Capt. Bill would approve…

  26. Michael Moore did a great job of being there and communicating his opinions. However, I think we shouldn’t be even talking in terms of opinions here but in terms of a journey.

    I’ve been in Scientology since 1987 but my journey really started about a year ago when I read one of my articles that I had ghost-written regarding the history of religions at my writing group meeting. The old ladies, all failed Christian and Jews and half-baked doodle-diddle agnostics, literally chewed my ass off for my opinionated and ignorant article. I was walking around with a nervous twitch in my eye and practically no ass for weeks.

    Just to make them all wrong, I decided to honestly look into Tao, Christianity (Catholicism first of all), Judaism and some of the hundreds of off-shoots like the Agape Movement and the Law of Attraction teachings by Kevin Trudeau, Esther Hicks and others. And what do you know! Holly Shit! A well of wisdom. And NONE of it contradicts Scientology in any way. I am not talking about Immaculate Conception and such.

    EXAMPLE: Lets take one of the two wrongest in my opinion concepts of Christianity which was at the bottom of the incredible scourge inflicted by Christianity over the ages with literally hundreds upon hundreds of millions of dead bodies to show for it and what makes the very essence of the current US Foreign Policy: the viewpoint that life is an eternal struggle between Good and Evil, the good God vs. the ultimate evil, Satan. Turned out to be the entire concept is not even a part of Jesus teachings but just a wrong translation from Aramaic. “Satan” that Jesus talked about should have really been translated as a “crazy thought.” A mistranslation. No Satan. God is the infinite intention, a postulate that encompasses everything and so no room for anything else and EVERYTHING is Good in as far as EVERYTHING is the result of our own postulates and all the power there is is within us and that comprises everything there is. Turned out that “Heaven” and “Nirvana” are literally the same thing. “Hell” has nothing to do with brimstone or any 3rd party evaluation of one’s deeds whatsoever. All out of there. Then the personal responsibility factor. As a part of a spiritual growth process (an early form of auditing), Jesus wanted his followers to relinquish, let go of their reactive control and their ridges and their thoughts to bypass the reactive mind which he either didn’t know how to handle or didn’t feel was important, and let positive gain in despite their banks. That was turned upside down to mean that now he was responsible for everybody and everything all the time. My incredible discoveries went on and on. Even Prophet Mohamed was actually a great guy and Muslim religion is not at all how I imagined it based on my “facts.” I was totally ignorant. What opinions could I have then about these things and how much were they worth? And how factual were my facts that I was basing my opinions on? So the answer here is to learn, to honestly try different things and create an opinion that is truly based on something.

    So my answer is yes and yes on both counts but I would refrain from calling Michael Moore right or wrong. Kind of like asking somebody who never ate sushi his opinion about sushi. No matter what he answered would be neither right, nor wrong. It would just be silly to even ask.

  27. Q1 — Yes
    Q2 —-Yes

  28. Re: Michael Moore – a closed mind clings to and defends the status quo. Anything that poses a threat (real or imagined) to the status quo the closed mind believes in, is attacked.

  29. Eric S

    The way that I have assimilated the philosophy of Scientology, as I understand it, is not aligned with narrowing one’s view of life or livingness.

    To me, it seems that “the more you are willing to look at, the more you will see.” If one considers that “willingness to perceive”, followed by “willingness to duplicate”, is a key tool in one’s eventual understanding, and judgement, in any area of the game of life, then why on earth would one deliberately choose to “not look” at anything.

    Choosing to “not look” at certain things seems to me to be, almost exclusively, what got us in whatever messes we find ourselves in, in the first place. Isn’t the point to eventually “be able to experience anything”? What you are unwilling to experience you are potentially the effect of, or, to put it another way, you can be controlled by.

    On the plus side of this issue is deliberately deciding to expand one’s willingness to perceive. This seems to far better align with being fully engaged in life. The more data sets that one has duplicated the better his evaluations will potentially be. The broader one’s understanding of all aspects of life, the better one will potentially be at effectively handling all aspects of life.

    Full Pan-determinism would seem to require one be able and willing to play ANY game from ANY, and EVERY, point of view. One becomes the “game maker” rather than a “game piece”.

    Personally, I sure like the sound of that.

    Eric S

  30. Richard Lloyd-Roberts

    I think what he is trying to communicate is that even though we can focus on the negative there are things that we can find that are good. Sure you can nit pick his wording, grammar, etc. At the end of the day is there so much wrong with the article? This time Marty I don’t agree with you. You can keep finding fault with the world around you but at some point its time to start being a positive leader where you inspire and bring up the people that look up to you. This blog post didn’t lift me up it made me feel worse about my day. Was Micheal’s entire article to my liking? No. However the general idea was positive so why slam it?

    • martyrathbun09

      Richard, question, did you read the book What Is Wrong With Scientology?

    • martyrathbun09

      Richard, question, did you read the book What Is Wrong With Scientology?

      • Richard Lloyd-Roberts

        I did and I enjoyed it as I enjoy much of your writings. I respect you as a person and think you have made many great contributions that have personally helped me in recovering from my time spent as a church member. In this case I didn’t take Micheal’s blog as an attack on you or a condoning of the current management.

        I’ll quote him from facebook in case you haven’t seen it.

        “I have no idea why Rathbun attacks this article so vemenently. It was not directed at him and has nothing to do with him. It was a commentary on how right the philosphy and technology of scientology is and how it is flying in the face of society.”

        And

        “the article had nothing to do with Marty. It was purely a commentary on the fact that so much is written about how Scientology is bad I thought I would write an article on how it is good and how it interacts with society. It came as a shock to me that it would be so misconstrued, vilified and attacked and with so much venom. I have nothing against Marty and of course, he is free to comment on other persons words just as we all are.”

        • martyrathbun09

          ‘villified and attacked and with so much venom’? Please. Does the victimhood know no bounds? Whether it is about me or not (which people who know the tone scale are well equipped to figure out for themselves) is meaningless. He expressed an opinion. I expressed a counter opinion. That’s life. Incidentally, this bullshit about making everything personal and dramatic I am afraid is another negative feature of the Scientology culture. Something that really needs to be transcended.

    • martyrathbun09

      It is ‘slamming’ when I express an opinion, but kumbaya when he’s countering me? My answer to your question is, I am not slamming anyone. I am pointing out that the president of the ‘freezone’ is making statements that are more narrow minded and bigoted than the church of Scientology would issue. If you are good with that, that is your right.

      • Marty. Michael is not a “President of the freezone”, that would be nonsense. Freezone is not an organized group, really. It is a broad definition for scientologists out of church. There is no structured form or shape, even some try to gather all into one (i do – by creating common virtual space, Michael does with his quality control system, Scientolipedia wiki website does, ron’s orgs etc). But all the groups stay small, they deliver training and auditing while remaining pretty much independent, often family based centers or even single practitioners, just like you.

        • martyrathbun09

          Please Tatiana, take off the rose-colored glasses for a moment, and look at this: http://internationalfreezone.net/OrgBoard.shtml

          • I looked. It is a table with 10 names placed on it. Half formal presence. It is nothing more then it is looked like – letters in the form. Trey is just an auditor that has his time scheduled for the year ahead, I believe he was just “counted” as well as Ken and Ian for the sake of filling the space. You’d have to ask all people who’s names are mentioned there of how much are they really are involved and in what particular activity. “Orgs have only 2 major final valuable products. One is well-trained auditors. The other is satisfied Pcs.”
            “Tech and Admin policy exist only to assist making these two products IN VOLUME.”
            LRH ED 131 INT, Re: Life Repair Block, 8 Dec 1970 (OEC Vol. 4, p. 145)

            So, no product – no Org. It is just a website with a collection of information, not an org and far from anything you could point to saying “that is a freezone”.

            There is a Russian jock saying, that “If on the cage with a tiger is written – an elephant – do not believe your eyes!” :)

            • martyrathbun09

              Then he should remove the fradulent misrepresentations.

              • I would not call it fraudulent, though it is a misrepresentation. It is more like a postulate, unfinished building, frozen at the stage of planning, but already producing in some devisions (promoting and quality controlling).

                • martyrathbun09

                  Gotcha. I think this very way of thinking, justifying false representations as ‘more like a postulate’, is another feature that got Scientology into a lot of trouble. I’ve tried to cure myself of it.

                  • I understand “justifying” as an effort or action to make something right or OK or look so. I was not trying to explain how it was right, but to explain how it was. I will have to give a thought to your viewpoint that I might be too soft to share. There is a difference in lies. Some intentionally misrepresent things in order to gain a profit out of it of some kind. And there is a child-like lie of creating, envisioning, postulating things, but not having enough theta or power of ability to fully materialize them into a real existence. And I see (that is just my opinion) that Michael falls into a second category.

      • Richard Lloyd-Roberts

        Marty. You alone have the position, authority and power to make one of the greatest moves in Scientology history. With your experience, status and resolve you could lead every Ex corporate Scientologist to a whole new plane. I think many of us are sitting here waiting for you to make that move and are ready to back you to the hilt. This blog post is irrelevant in the grand scheme of things and although a few may agree with your views I feel you’ll lose the respect of more than you gain. You were at the head of the Church for many years. If really want healing amongst people as you state then show some love despite peoples mistakes and out points. After all isn’t that what we all left behind. If all you showed was compassion for your fellows you would find a whole other level of “moving on up”

        • martyrathbun09

          If you read my books and followed the blog for long you would know that I believe this attitude of waiting for someone to take charge and lead the way is an important part of the Scientology sheep mentality I am hoping to help people to transcend. If you elected and abided by a ‘leader’ who would sit by while Scientology cult mentality is actively promoted by ‘leaders’ of Scientology, then God help you. What you are asking for in a leader here is a morally bankrupt egoist. If you believe what I have been doing here for four years is not ‘healing amongst people’, then you and I are simply two blacked out ships passing in the night. Ironically, if you knew the tone scale and SOS, you wouldn’t be making such wrong-targeted backhanded evaluations. You’d be putting ethics in where it is out.

          • Richard Lloyd-Roberts

            As stated in an earlier post I have read your books and they in many ways have helped both myself and my wife move on.
            My definition of leadership: Leadership is a process whereby an individual influences a group of individuals to achieve a common goal.

            • martyrathbun09

              I’ve stated my goals about as clearly as I think I possibly can. We live in a free society where people have the right to either support, attack, reject or ignore them.

              • This whole comm cycle reminds me of someone who is trying to force another into doing something that they don’t want to do and don’t think is a good idea to do. Then because the don’t want to do it, the other one tries to manipulate them and crush them into agreement.

                Don’t you guys get it???? Marty doesn’t want to be your leader!!!
                End cycle on it..
                Find someone who wants to create that if you want it.

                My take on Marty is that he is applying Scientology for those who want to come and see him. He is also running a blog and writing some books to help people see what went wrong with their adventures in Scientology Inc.

                That’s about it. (My take on it) Is there something wrong with this?? Uhh, no.

                • martyrathbun09

                  It all depends on what you consider leadership is. You want commanders and cheerleaders, you get corporate scientology-light.

    • Richard, this is a wrong indication. Marty is not nit picking wording and grammar, it’s the other way around!

  31. What I took away from Michael Moore’s article was a reminder of the LRH datum “that which is not admired tends to persist.”

    One of the things that causes this is the mechanism of affinity. Things one does not have an affinity for are held at a distance and thus tent to persist by lack of close inspection. The conundrum/repulsion one must overcome is that if one were to inspect things that he has a “disaffinity” for closely, they would fall apart and cease to exist substantively.

    Regarding the questions:

    1. Are there any practicing Scientologists out there who see these types of public statements as uninformed, bigoted, and/or arrogant?

    Answer: I didn’t look at that particular statement from that viewpoint. However, I do feel that a broad group consideration that the Church of Scientology is destroying peoples lives (in all of the myriad and diabolical ways one of prolific imagination can mock up) would tend to allow that destruction to occur when the people in the church abdicate the point of responsibility on the KRC triangle.

    2. Are there any practicing Scientologists who believe it is a wise course to attempt to integrate, evolve and/or transcend?

    I do believe that it is a wise course to pursue in the wise of scientology gaining acceptance as an extremely viable mind/body/spiritually enhancing pursuit that can help any one individual to transcend their existing paradigm. But not if any beneficial aspect of “knowing how to know” is lost in the process.

    I also feel that getting enough individuals up through the state of Cleared Theta Clear and beyond (“up and out the top”) is of paramount importance for the destimulation of and clearing of the rest of the life on the planet. Otherwise, we leave in place the group agreement that is “making the clock run true”.

    • martyrathbun09

      Yeah, that group agreement aberration is cancerous.

    • I think that group agreement can also be in-powering and helpful. It is the question of what it gives the power to matters. Agreement is sharing the space and reality, the viewpoints. Not bad, it is the way to grow – exploring and including new viewpoint. It can be sick though if one looses self and “drowns” in another’s universe becoming a little blueprint copy, like in Scientology you can see lot’s of “little hubbards” – thinking “like him”, speaking by his quotes… sad product of too much agreement.

  32. I was once a practicing Scientologist, well trained and competent. I had numerous successes and many gains on my own auditing. But I am no longer a Scientologist, for I have parted ways with several clauses of the Code of a Scientologist and numerous LRH issues prohibiting making public statements about Scientology.

    I am however a citizen of the United States, a citizen of this world, and a citizen of the vast uncharted domain often referred to as the theta universe by Scientologists. As such, I believe my opinion should at least be heard. After all, I do have a personal stake in the quality of our shared endeavors.

    LRH repeatedly invalidated, dismissed and denounced outsiders and dissenting individuals in his lectures and in his issues over a period of 36 years. He states unequivocally and repeatedly that Scientology is the ONLY workable technology of the human spirit and man, its only salvation. He often characterized the body game as a sad state for a theta being, a game that traps and degrades theta beings, until at last they end up in a state of total oblivion, dead forever.

    The problem is that there is very real value in the auditing technology that was developed under the name of Scientology. LRH declared exclusive ownership legally and through the practice of brand establishment. The orders to copyright everything under the name L. Ron Hubbard were issued to HCO by LRH.

    The real question is whether the technology can and should be lifted out of the body of materials which include all of LRH writings so that it can be successfully by anyone of good will.

    Those loyal to LRH will fight any effort to do that. In their estimation, LRH is ka kahn and his foibles, mistakes and shortcomings should not be the subject of discussion or disagreement. In other words, he is so upstat that any ethics chit should be shredded and the big guns turned on the writer of the chit. That is what he taught, after all.

    So the question is, given the state of Scientology over a period of many, many years, is the end worth the means? Are human beings and the MEST universe truly destructive to theta beings? Should they just be humored or ignored or put in their place if they express upset over such an attitude? Are we building a new civilization for human beings? Or are they a barrier that needs to be pushed aside in the necessary rehabilitation of a theta being?

    If we are building a new civilization for human beings, then this is the answer:
    1. Yes
    2. Yes

    If we are not building a new civilization for human beings, but are set on rehabilitating theta beings, and undoing the dwindling spiral produced by continued association with bodies i.e. let sleeping sapiens snore, then this is the answer:
    1. No
    2. No

    I personally think that if we cannot work to create a new civilization for human beings, then there is not much point in working on the other, for the same craziness that brought us to this pass will not be addressed and resolved, but will repeat again.

  33. I have said this before, the Independent movement will fragment into these forms:

    1) fundamentalist Scientologists ( similar to DM’s Scientology without the punching lol, literalist, elitist and exclusive)

    2) reform Scientology (probably the Scientology that Phil loved and grieved the loss of ( free to think and know what you know with auditing standards set by Ron)

    3) hybrid Scientology ( the dreaded mixing of practices, probably my favorite as I have always thought squirrels were cute and fluffy)

    If we look at religions in general, they always splinter into diverse parts. And they all look down each other.

    Some people need an ‘only way’. It is the prime directive of certain psychological types whose unconscious, innate insecurity, demands subservience from ‘the other.’ A form of tribal thinking, an old world left over, and needing a terminal to be better than to compensate for that insecurity.

    A being taller by chopping other’s heads off.

    The fundamentalist types have one helluva tight sphincter. Their hate, arrogance and stifling elitism, has erroneous justification from an underdeveloped intelligence, that is plagued with all manner of false assumptions. These assumtions, they bark, are knowledge. But their mind is composed of beliefs camoflauged as knowledge, fears impersonating certainty and personal issues being cloaked in church doctrine.

    You can’t argue with a fundamentalist. Constructive reasoning and debate will only lead to your crucifixion. Because the basis for a fundamentalist is faith even if they tell you they are ‘techno-science-advanced-true-wizards-of-the-only-way.’ They fear reasoned dissent. Because reasoned dissent challenges their false assumptions. Their false assumtions are their identity in the group.

    Some people are asleep and don’t want to wake or they are not ready to wake yet. You may say, “hey wake up, it’s time to play in the sun!”. But if they are not ready to wake they will grumble and moan and maybe push you away. Some beings are still in slumber land. Let the sleep.

    • And Marty, for every one person who is thinking you are “finding what is wrong with Scientology, there are scores of “Marty haters” who are rethinking that hate and seeing the good in you. I’ve been checking the pulse out there. Thank you

    • Bryan, I disagree with your seeming automatic link up between “fundamentalism” in practicing Scientology and arrogance/intolerance for other paths and viewpoints. I think the opposite is true.

      In my experience some highly trained Scientologists who were well up the Bridge were authentically tolerant of others’s differing opinions and points of view. In fact, it is a stated hallmark of being far up the tone scale to be able to do this. In my opinion, if one really understands and practices Scientology as (I believe) LRH meant it to be, then one is quite ready to be there, to communicate without upset or effort on any subject to anyone, to tolerate many viewpoints (without gritting one’s teeth) to know and not know, to play any game one chooses, to let others choose and play their own games, etc..

      In my opinion, those are some of the real abilites gained of auditing and training, and one who has achieved these finds one’s strength not in being right and making others wrong but in affinity, reality and communication.

      And I’m not saying that I have achieved them in any great degree but I would certainly like to pursue any workable path toward achieving such abilities.

      Moreover, in my opinion, if one is a TRUE (as I define it) Scientologist, encountering others who have possibly reached these states or abilities would not be a problem, particularly. I think a truly evolved, trained and well audited Scientologist could have his own reality on the workability of his own path yet would have no button at all on the paths of others, those who achieved the same yet by a different route. I think he/she would say – and mean it – “Hey, congratulations, and more power to you”, because isn’t high ARC (or whatever it would be called in other practices) the end game?

      • I would also like to acknowledge that my concept is idealistic in the extreme.

        • Thanks Aquamarine. I am meaning people who are absolutely literal with their study and damn free thinking. Jesus is the only way, Buddha is better than Jesus, you are going to hell, you will become a rock, If it’s in writing it must be true: only way.
          Scientology is the only way out, we are the cream of the stinky cream, the custodians of brain freeze.

          To me Scientology is knowing how to know, not knowing what is authorized knowing.

          The super regimentation of approved thinking has created some crazy people here dude. This baby is bleeding off like a presure cooker ready to blow. The judgementalism is so ingrained so much part of the mindset.

          My judgements come from wanting respect and unity in diversity.

          • Bryan, LOL, understood and totally agreed. Contextually, authoritarianism has always repelled me. However true, right or provenly workable may be the content within, I simply won’t be able to have it. And I don’t think that true Scientology can be delivered or accepted with authoritarian methods because if this is attempted it ceases to be Scientology.

            There are definite survival usages for authoritarianism but these IMO would relate to situations where there is danger to life and limb and very little time to create the necessary effect. When I was 5 I left my mother’s side and wandered into the street with cars whizzing by. My mother screamed my name, which froze me in my tracks, ran quickly and yanked me back to the sidewalk, where she proceeded to give me a few good wallops on the backside while bellowing, “Don’t you EVER do that again!!” Completely out of character behavior for my mother, the gentlest and most patient of women, but completely appropriate and necessary authoritarian behavior to save her child’s life and limb at the time.

            There are survival usages for all the tone levels including the low ones like fear, apathy and grief, but teaching someone something, and jeez, enlightening someone as to their own spiritual nature? “You ARE a spirit. GET THAT, OK? You’re NOT just a body, and if you can’t understand this on your own, I’ll MAKE you understand it!!”….Yea, that’ll work. Not.

    • ” ‘techno-science-advanced-true-wizards-of-the-only-way.”

      You mean I can’t be that?

      Shucks, I was gonna’ go for the merit badge.

  34. “Are there any practicing Scientologists out there who see these types of public statements as uninformed, bigoted, and/or arrogant?”

    I can’t answer this exact question because the phrase “these types of statements” in your question is too general.
    However, after going to his site and reading what he said, I did not think that Moore’s statement was particularly uninformed or bigoted, and was no more arrogant than your accusations towards him.

    “Are there any practicing Scientologists who believe it is a wise course to attempt to integrate, evolve and/or transcend? ”

    Yes. I believe that this course which you advocate is very wise. I have always tried to do this with others with regards to their spiritual practices. (And yes, I do understand that when you say “integrate” you do not mean to alter LRH tech by mixing the tech developed by LRH with other practices.)
    In fact, I think that if one can integrate the subject of Scientology with Buddhism, Taoism, Christianity, Hinduism, Mormonism, etc., it could be possible and also wise to integrate your view of Scientology with Michael’s.
    From what I understand about integration, one thing that one does is to look for points of agreement and place more emphasis on those points than on points of disagreement while still acknowledging and embracing any differences in a friendly and tolerant way.

    • martyrathbun09

      What this one does is to point out where ‘leaders’ of Scientology make statements directed at making Scientology an exclusive, arrogant cult.

  35. As a narrow minded, ritualistic Theravada Buddhist, I can still see flaws in
    Mr. Moore’s presentation. For example, he says:

    “On the contrary it was a case of pray hard or meditates (sic) hard and leave everything to the gods.”

    This is a “generality”, and Mr. Moore contradicts his own ‘religion’.
    This is easily demonstrated since meditation or even prayer have nothing
    to do with “leaving everything to the gods”. Mr. Moore needs to take a
    good look at religion and philosophy.

    But on even a more fundamental level, Mr. Moore is taking a political
    stance from the point of view of his own religion.

    “In today’s western society man is cultured into believing that he is basically bad, cannot be changed for the better”

    In his own mind, I’m sure Mr. Moore has developed ideas to support
    his own views of the political agents who are responsible. He has one
    vote in America for his own election.

    By the way, to answer the question. In a narrow minded way,
    I don’t follow integration or evolution. However, transcend is good.
    Ritualistic chanting in Pali is even better. Mr. Moore, would you
    like to join me? You have, in your essay, actually followed a
    ritualistic mind set.

    George M. White

  36. Marty, something I have thought before when my ideas started to outgrow group think and it felt bad to be rejected by that group ( which happens a lot as my obssesion with accurate knowledge makes believers uncomfortable):

    Rejection is a form of graduation. The barbs of criticism are graduation diplomas. It is very difficult for a free thinker to be part of a group. Free thinkers create groups. The rare exception is when a renaissance of thinkers meet. As in the time Phil talks about, Plato and company, Paine Adams Washington etc.

    I honor your courage and integrity, loyalty to Ron, tolerance for dissent, and respect for the individuals sovereign view as a good thing and not a threat.

  37. Running into some math / accounting errors. On Michael’s web site, he states:

    ” APIS believes that man is free to follow his own path, and his religious practices and beliefs are not constricted by any copyright monopoly, ”

    He also quotes: “I know no man who has any monopoly upon the wisdom of this universe. It belongs to those who can use it to help themselves and others.”

    If the above is true, I don’t see how Michael would take issue with you.

    http://internationalfreezone.net/

    Steve Hall wrote, ” Instead of inspiring me with fear and dread, I found in Marty a friend.”

    On his web site: http://independentscientologycult.com/tag/steve-hall/

    Then a few weeks later he totally fair gamed you on your blog. A 180 degree turn around.

    Someone is restimulating them.

    I can assure you just because Michael has a freezone / independent web site, he does not speak for the Freezone. Just as Steve does not represent the Independent Movement.

    Nobody else in the Freezone is Interested in fair gaming you, or the witch hunts and fair gamings coming from that group.

    The entire Freezone was already fair gamed , you were fair gamed, there will be another target soon. A whole lotta noise and chaos and conflict being generated from that corner.

    Freezoners are “live and let live” kind of people. They got miffed when they were fair gamed but quickly moved around the wrong indications and wrong items and moved forward.

    These justice cycles, witch hunts, and fair gamings that are being run on people and groups out here is some tradition being carried on from former days and former times.

    There are only about five people hobby horsing on it. Nobody else is interested . Only one of them even lives in the U.S..

    They are on the same purpose line as David Miscavige to unmock you. They are in alignment with him.

    I do wonder who David is using to bring them under his umbrella. Maybe it’s just a copy of David, being David in the field. If so, he should be aware he is not with out spawn.

    • martyrathbun09

      OSA is so into them as to own them. But, there is no pointing it out to them because like I noted in the video the other day, if you can talk the talk you can get away with anything in the cult. But, I’m going to steer this back on topic.

      • Well, I sure had a loss on Steve Hall because he really made me love him. I tried to tell him. I can let go of the others, but I am willing to humiliate myself and beg to bring Steve on back home. So, I’ll just leave this here and wait and hope the best.

        • You are cool Oracle.
          I have a soft spot for Steve Hall too. I personally think it ‘s more of an ARCX between him and Marty. I think they both have some responsibility in the upset.

          • I think it’s more than just those two than have some responsibility for the upset. Yeah, I think there is a silent partner in there somewhere.

            • People in lower conditions can pull others into lower conditions, just like tone levels can effect others.

              I have to wonder about math skills, when someone decides Marty should be harmed attacked and suppressed. Why? What is he doing?

              He is full time auditing people either on the third dynamic or in his home.

              He is bringing people back onto the bridge and getting up them up the bridge. He is handling governments and press and safe pointing Scientology. Where it is being attacked for overt products and become a liability under Miscavige’s orders. He has made it safe to practice Scientology in the field. He has shouldered all of the heat. He has helped people to escape impossible conditions. He has healed people.
              He gets more T.A. on this blog than the Flag Land Base gets. In fact, he has revitalized and propped up the people that are attacking out here!

              He has bought people from apathy up to need of change where they can see change is possible.

              He has put out the truth where is had been hidden and with held from people.

              He made it possible for auditors to resume auditing and training all over the planet, from L.A. to the middle east.

              That is not all. That is just what is on the surface. He did it all with out asking for anything except donations.

              The products?

              People getting audited.
              People auditing.
              People getting trained.
              Hope restored.
              Truth revealed.
              Scientology safe pointed.
              Scientology working again.
              Releases.
              Missions.
              A.O.’s
              CAN HAVE on Scientology.
              CAN HAVE on being and practicing Scientology.
              Healing.
              Understanding.
              Enlightenment.

              So, Who / What would decide he should be harmed attacked and suppressed?

              This isn’t just about Marty or a few figures or who is mocking up “the past” to ser fac instead of using it to do math problems.

              This is about ALL OF US, our goals and purposes and CONDITIONS that float upon our Earth.

              This is about “maximum creation and minimum destruction”.

              This is about maintaining the sanity conditions we have paid for worked for and deserve. This is about OUR WORLD.

              Sanity: Is the measure of how ably an individual ASSISTS things which ASSIST survival, and inhibits things which inhibit survival. L.R.H.

              A man is sane in the ratio that he can COMPUTE accurately, limited only by information and viewpoint. L.R.H.

              A person that can not COMPUTE or do the math can not apply a doubt formula!

              It makes no reason at all to give someone who is not a clear an ethics book! If you look at the awareness chart, CONDITIONS is at CLEAR on the grade chart.

              Since we are aware now people need more clearing after clear, this brings one to understanding about how a Scientologist can and will harm attack and suppress others , with out being able to do a doubt formula. And how injustice can run rampant.

              • I hope this blows charge for anyone that has been the subject of a witch hunt or fair gaming.

                • A person or group or country will have just as much justice as there is sanity.

                  If you look at the Church of Scientology as group of insane people, nothing will bypass any charge on you.

                  The reason people get worked up, they get the idea they are approaching an island of sanity there.

                  Then things don’t add up and people get all disturbed about it.

                  • You hear things like, “The tech doesn’t work”. “The ethics don’t work” “The auditing doesn’t work” “It’s all brainwashing” and all kinds of lists of WHYs get published.

                    Guess what? Guess what always gets left all the list?

                    The people are fucking crazy.

                    • And they think they are sane. So they are not handling it! The only difference between me and them, is that I still admitted I was just as fucking crazy as everyone else on the planet until I got through OT3.

                      Even then, I only saw the possibility ahead of actually qualifying as sane somewhere up the line.

                    • From MY viewpoint, CLEAR at the grade chart, should read AWARE OF CONDITIONS, YOURS and OTHERS. AT THIS POINT ON THE GRADE CHART, IF you are lucky, you should be just enough outside of all it to figure out how crazy everybody else is, and how crazy you are.

                    • Why the hell do people think they are sent to do a locational assist right after clear?

                    • Most of them Don’t Think! They aren’t even understanding those conditions! They STILL are not computing!

                      The “wog” world has a built in system of weeding people out of power and mainstream influence. They put arithmetic and math into the school curriculum.

                    • It is said that crazy people never think they are crazy.
                      It would seem logical that by extension a crazy org will also never think they are crazy.

                      No one in the org thinks they, the org or DM is crazy.

                      When they do they are forced out of the asylum and have to come hang with us normal people.

    • “Then a few weeks later he totally fair gamed you on your blog. A 180 degree turn around. Someone is restimulating them. ”

      I believe that I am missing data about this whole Brouhaha. Maybe that is why I do not understand it. I follow this blog very regularly, and I usually try to catch up when I have to miss a few days. But I do not recall either Steve Hall or Michael Moore “fair gaming” Marty. I recall a little “snit” or disagreement occasionally but nothing on the order of an “attack”. I also recall Marty flowing admiration their way in the past. I just went to the Blog’s search window and entered their names and still did not find anything along these lines. Obviously SOMETHING was said. Can anyone help me out here with some data? …..like what was said, who said it, when, and under what circumstances?

    • Dear Oracle, the website you quote and link to above (independentscientologycult.com) saying that it was “his” website, referring to Steve Hall, does not seam correct to me. It is looking nothing like Steve’s creation, though have some similarities. Take a closer look at it. Non of the 8 articles there are been signed with an author name, there is no copyright note to Steve that he puts at the bottom of his websites. It is some kind of provocation of those who are afraid to show their faces.

  38. Interesting how some unity is flowing against the backdrop of the conflict being generated.

    MODERATOR NOTE: I GOTTA CUT THIS OFF OR THIS WILL TURN INTO A FLAME WAR. SUFFICE IT TO SAY THAT OSA IS SO INTO THEM THAT THEY EFFECTIVELY OWN THOSE FOLK.

  39. Marty, I would consider myself a fundamentalist, but my fundamentals are arc, the belief that all men are basically good that all men have the right to their own opinions beliefs and religions. I find when you respect others of whatever beingness they tend to respect you.These are the views I have learned and /or been enhanced from Ron Hubbards works and my journey up the bridge he developed.
    I believe Michael has a right to his opinion, I didnt find it any different but from an opposite viewpoint to some comments on this blog. I may not agree but I can have those comments and opinions, especially in light of the suppression Scientologists have been under. I also believe that if we had just followed the vast majority of what LRH taught without the disgusting misapplication we would have already evolved, integrated and transcended.

    • martyrathbun09

      The difference between it and ‘any comment’ is that he promotes himself as President of the freezone, it was an article directed at my book and blog, and it was posted on a blog set up for the purpose of undermining and countering the integrating, evolving and transcending we are attempting to engender here. Nonetheless, I agree that he is certainly entitled to his views; I’d be the last one attempting shut him up. Also, I am sincerely asking the questions I posed in the post. If it becomes apparent that Scientology is just inherently inconsistent, and incapable of, integration, evolution and transcendence, then I will need to go back the drawing board. Thanks for answering.

      • Marty, Scientology is capable, with the right people who value independent thinking. What is the ratio of thinkers to followers? My bet is there are so many people out there who are so burnt by the disgusting prejudice and elitism in their experience of Scientology who would be willing to give it a shot again in a non regimented environment.

        Those millions that DM claims to be in the church are really out of the church. How many hate Scientology now who really had incredible success at one time? But now the cognitive disconnect created by the “stupid arrogant only way” in Scientology makes access to those wins difficult.

        You want Scientology to be successful with the general public and to disaffected ex members? Don’t make Scientology like todays Scientology. Make it like Phil’s Scientology!

        Where Ron was a friend and coach, a person who teaches freedom of thought and not a tyrannical dictator who needs to fights enemies to secure the “only way”.

        Happy free thinking people are the only stat worth honoring. The rest is just what humans have always done. Fight fight bicker bicker judge judge hate hate.

        There are bigger fish to fry than serving up over cooked comformity. The techniques of auditing will one day be accepted and become a useful too in the spiritual life of many.

        Why? Because it is true! Ron’s approach was/is unique. I know because I have practiced many many paths. There are processes he developed that can truly turn lives around faster than other practices.

        Every teacher adds his genius to the table of possiblities to help.

        The power of it will be individuals practicing and delivering audiiting by the 100s 1000s everyday for years and years. Helping people overcome hurt, trauma and inability and letting humans get on with the priceless process of self evolving.

        The world is watching

    • I believe Michael has a right to his opinion also, but I don’t think he has a right to alter is and give people wrong items and wrong indications. Especially when he is being led to believe he is supporting a K.S.W. group that is being run by someone that is anything but a standard tech person. Who has actively worked to reduce the survival of people in the Freezone. Michael is out of the loop on a lot of information. He means well. He is uninformed and being used as a pawn.

  40. Lastly, the “What is right with Scientology” rebuttal is a complete ALTER IS of what Marty is doing and saying, to me anyway.

    Marty is auditing people. Michael is not.

    The Organization is supposed to cycle through the Org Board. It has been stopped at Qual, and has not been corrected, for decades. This is why it has been failing.

    Marty is pulling the subject and the people through the Qual cycle. If you don’t know the outpoints, you can not correct something.

    For Micaheal to assert nothing is wrong, while he himself is parked WAY OFF the front lines or any lines of the Church with little or no responsibility, is very convenient.

    If they choose to sit parked off the Church’s lines watching the entire subject and it’s people slide into the ocaen, asserting nothing is wrong at the same time, that is their GPM. If they choose to self appoint themselves police officers over some people, good for them.

    For them to pretend they are part of any “remedy” if not willing to confront the qual cycle, find outpoints, address them, and right now why would they, when they are coming across as serious outpoints themselves?

    If there is nothing wrong with Scientology why aren’t they in the Org on service today? Or on staff? They have NO intention of every walking in the front door of a church again. And they are asserting nothing is wrong?

    Just another symptom of lower conditions. The confusion and the treason manifesting itself across sincere attempts of other to actually get up the bridge, get others up the bridge, and address what needs to be fixed.

    E.S.M.B. isn’t over there protesting over bypassed wins! But they “don’t matter” because they are X’s.

    Guess what? They all DO matter! They were set up for losses! And it isn’t because “there is nothing wrong”.

    This, “keep your lips tight and say nothing critical” is exactly what contributed to the current mess WE are trying to remedy!

    DDuuuuuuuuHHHHHHHH!

    • Of course he will say nothing is wrong.
      Something is wrong = imminent change!
      When you imply that something is wrong those with a protest read will speak up. All we have to do is listen to who objects and we can know right away who is wrong with SC?

  41. With all due respect to Mr. Moore, he sounds a bit like the usual propaganda pamphlets of a certain church. And even worse, he opened with a huge generality : “In today’s western society …”.

    He tries to tell us that there is a homogeneous society in the western world.

    Frankly, when I take a ride through New York City alone ( not to mention the whole western world ) I find lots and lots of societies :

    * some follow the traditional routes of their religion, be it Christian, Muslim, Hindu …

    * some pray to their god mammon ( god of money ) and prey on their fellow men to get as much precious luxury as possible …

    * some believe that their family and their children come first and do what they can to assist them …

    * some rely on the uses and values of foreign cultures, like Italian, Chinese, Jewish …

    * some are caught in severe personal and emotional problems but still try to cope …

    * some try to become better athletes or businessmen or humans or whatever, learning what they can find from Dale Carnegie to Napoleon Hill, from positive thinking to Rosicrucianism, etc …

    * some worship hedonistic decadence, like drug users, alcoholics, johns & hookers …

    * some feel their only way out is through crime or violence …

    * and so on …

    No, I don’t see a single society there. And experience showed me that I get on much better if I treat each individual as an individual and not as part of some perceived culture.

    However I do understand Mr. Moore because I have heard similar generalities in Ron’s tapes. Generalities ( the psychs, the theosophists, the medical profession, the pirates and bums … ) seem to be an easy communication tool to gain agreement from the listeners. Hitler and his fellows were just great in using such generalities ( the arch enemy of France, the sub humans of Russia, the Jewish pest … ).

    So I recognize these generalities as a historical burden that Scientologists have to bear. Thus I can see only one single way out :

    “integrate, evolve and/or transcend” – and quickly so, if possible !

  42. theosismanides

    Michael Moore wrote this:

    “In today’s western society man is cultured into believing that he is basically bad, cannot be changed for the better, and is a body only run by a brain and all efforts are in the direction of reducing man’s level of responsibility through the encouragement of laziness and increased regulation. Through repetition such mores become the accepted norm and efforts to introduce a more causative approach for man, such as Scientology, hit this head on. Hence it takes time to assimilate a new and radical ‘think’.”

    My comment.

    This is the truest statement for this planet. Scientology could do something about it and does. There has been no other organized (and now with precise technical procedures) movement on this planet for eons.

    Even Christianity cannot erase one engram or remove an ARC break (they have no technology) thus they have come to the point where their people feel they are just bodies. Few Christians out of the majority as compared to Scientologists know (have a certainty) they are spiritual beings.

    Integration is not against realizing what is going on on this planet. On the contrary if you don’t realize where you are at, you are in for a lot of surprises.

    We have been given a gift by LRH and I, personally, am going to cherish it by including people with good will (even if they are dumber than some smarter ones) who can do something about it.

    The world is moving towards a more chaotic situation. Politics, finances, resources going mad… At least this is the way I see it. A definition of Rationality is: the ability to recognize and meet the counter effort applied to the individual. The amount of counter effort applied to the individual (a Scientologist, let’s say) is quite big. LRH knew that and thus he formed up Orgs and thus he created the Admin to protect the Tech.

    People can have different ideas even if we have all become privy to that very technology LRH left to us. This planet is full of surprises…. hahaha! Keeps surprising me every day!

    I don’t mind Michael Moore stating his opinions, I don’t mind Marty stating his… what I mind is that we are dealing with the smallest details possible when we do know what is happening on this planet: Madness prevails…

    If that sounds too “radical” for some, I am not at all sorry. it’s my viewpoint and I am going to stick to it. So, can I really think for myself or what?

  43. With Mr. Moore scientology isn’t fun. He is a KSW kamikaze, as Marty aptly nicknamed the likes of Mr. Moore. He is also a sad blanket. He really needs to cheer up.

    If it ain’t fun, it ain’t scientology, pal.

    To both questions, my answer is yes.

  44. 1. Are there any practicing Scientologists out there who see these types of public statements as uninformed, bigoted, and/or arrogant?
    The problem with statements like the one from Michael Moore give Scientology and Scientologists the appearance of being ignorant, “know-best” and “absolutist”. And this can’t be the way if you really try to educate the people in the fundamentals of Scientology wisdom and its beneficial techniques.
    If you really want to reach the masses, you need to open your eyes and see how many rightness there is in todays philosophy. Learn some of the nomenclature of different schools and see the eternal truth almost everywhere you look.
    People are not stupid only because they have a particular route, a different school. They compare their environment with what they learned and if someone thinks that Scientology concepts or nomenclature is better, he should learn to speak to people, but first you need some reality about what they are really talking about. With the “only way” attitude you won’t have the opportunity to establish the comm-line, you just don’t want to know. It’s ignorance and invalidation of the person in front of you.
    It doesn’t matter if you are right or wrong – the only thing which matters is: will you reach the person or not? How many could you reach if you were truly interested in their views?
    Hey, you could even learn something new, expand your horizon and the work you do could enrich you universe even more.

    2. Are there any practicing Scientologists who believe it is a wise course to attempt to integrate, evolve and/or transcend?
    Everyone who really wants to live a life and wants to influence his dynamics positivley needs to expand his views. Just open your mind and ready to communicate.
    “Open minded” on the A-J doesn’t mean you shut your eyes down. It describes people who use the statement of “there are so many interesting things out there…” as excuse to not get involved in Scientology.
    So what would happen if you were open enough to talk to the person about “all the other interesting things” ? Would it make you “open minded” or would it lead you to a higher plateau of understanding, a bigger and better game, more people reached and helped? What about “The rightness of the being in front of you”?

    At the end of the day I feel your ARC would go through the roof .

    Evolve, integrate, transcend – yes, sir!

  45. Part of the indoctrination of Scientology is the datum that new people introduced are not asked what they want but areTOLD what they will do. I believe it is from “How to handle the Public indivdual”.
    This type of indoctrination gives people ( the handlers) the idea that THEY KNOW BEST. And the person themself cannot add anything very important to the equasion.
    If it is okay for Scientologists to say THEY have the only route to free mankind then wouldn’t it be fair that the Christians have the same right to say that THEY have the only way to salvage man? Same with the Muslims?
    Isn’t that what got us into many bloody wars throughout history??
    Now Scientology, the great Clearing mechanism is going to prove how smart it is by acting as ignorant as other isms, entities, ologies have through the ages???
    Hey if it’s true that Scientology is the only route to total freedom for Mankind then wouldn’t it justify slaughtering anyone who got in it’s way?

    The only way to change people is through ARC. If you start the conversation with I KNOW BEST and anything you are doing is bullshit, I don’t think that creates very much ARC.

  46. There are some interesting bullets being used in these games. I’m going to share a secret. This is the fucking bomb secret. This is the bomb to end all bombs. This is the bomb bigger than the “truth” bomb. Fucking sincerity. If you think the truth will set you free, just try being sincere for a minute. The freedom you will fall into, by being sincere, is fucking infinite. No hidden agendas. No games. No socially politically correct battle plans, you can be all wrong all over the fucking place. If it is coming from the heart, you will never, ever lose.

    • How about some CAN HAVE on friendship? The real thing. Not where you throw someone under the bus on ded dedex. Where you have a valid excuse to destroy another being or who they are. That’s not sincerity, that is fragile conditional friendship. That was never real. A friend is a person who pushes you up, not someone who tears you down. And it has to do with purpose, not policy. Purpose is senior to policy. There are only two safe places in this Scientology arena to be there and communicate anymore. Marty’s blog and the Freezone forum. How did this come to be when grade zero is the first step on the grade chart? It’s all right there in the tech. Op terming, false purposes, lower conditions. Come on, it was spoon fed to you. Never withdraw allegiance once granted. How about stepping up to the plate and just befriending someone and being a real friend for starters? You know where that is going on? Right here. With some sincere freedom to be here and communicate with out penalties and taxes. This is what we have carved out of all of the labor. And half a century of sacrifice, blood sweat and tears. Two places on Earth where it is safe to be there and communicate. Need of change. That’s what I’m thinking.

  47. WOW — Brad!!!

    “The problems of man will not be solved until enough enlightened souls embrace universally understanding, compassion, forgiveness and love. It has been said that “no man can save another”. Each of us must do the hard work of overcoming our baser instincts and embrace the divine self within. Scientology has something to offer each of us in this endeavor, but it will be much more affective when used as a means to an end and not an exclusive universal truth excluding all others.”

    And wow – to Karen#1 and to Mike Rinder as well — and I appreciate all the comments – and LOVED Mike’s comment about the comments on Michael Moore’s article were more offensive than the article.

    THAT SAID: Here’s my deal –

    Thinking FOR myself, asking myself what to do (for example in the simple case of my truck oil gage acting wacky – calling a girl friend whose boyfriend is VERY authoritarian telling me – no problem – drive home about 12 miles away – making MY OWN decision, no – pull over and get towed home and to the mechanic – mechanic validated IF I had driven home we’d be taking a new engine not a $100 part) …

    Depending on MYSELF to know the right road or the wrong road has taken me up to NOW … age 65.

    WHY? I posit it had something to do with a very bad choice I made as a pre-teen – trusting an older (38) year old teacher … story for another time.

    MY POINT IS — it’s OUT OF MY COMFORT zone to trust myself. It’s within my comfort zone to have a “leader” — and follow his words to the max.

    I found a very defined Buddhist path with a very definite leader — Tibetan Buddhist RESTS on “the master lama” — heed him or be damned …

    Wow — convenient way to HIDE the ills of a group. And hide they do.

    NO RELIGION is safe from this. I say none. WHY — because the leader is a human being and the further you go from his life (ie — people who follow) the more diluted and deluded are his followers.

    So — I say — follow Scientology but with your heart and mind open. Follow Buddhism with the same. Judaism etc etc …

    And promise yourself that what you are seeking is yourself meeting the divine — you

    Love,
    Christine

  48. I wouldnt sweat it. Not to develope a Yossarian veiwpoint ( Catch 22),
    Yes of course if you are flying bombing missions somewhere somebody wants to shoot you down, jeezus louise, Duh. Micheal Moore was having a bad day or need to raise his surgar level. Marty, send him a candy bar.

  49. Organized Scientology should stay with CofS.

    And as “higher” includes a much larger portion of conceptual understanding (and detachment), a new “ecumenical” attitude would also be necessary.

    ML/A

  50. The present degredation of the subject of Scientology has nothing what so ever to do with a society that encourages and rewards laziness or downstats. The ‘Why’ is not God or other ‘philosophies’ .

    The ‘Why’ for the degredation of the subject of Scientology rests wholly in the hands of the CofS and it’s activities, both internal and external to the organization, and in particular, the old GO and the GO’s present incarnation, OSA.

    And, in my opinion, a handle for such a condition would be to integrate the subject into the world at large, and in doing so, finding natural allies and causing the negative impacts to eventually evaporate.

    What Marty and others are doing, is, in my view, calling on Scientologists to step out of the box, leave the cacoon so well nurtured by isolationists, get out and look at the world. It’s really not so bad that it can’t be helped, which is of course, the basic mission LRH intended, isn’t it?

    my opinion.

  51. Marty said,
    “Also, I am sincerely asking the questions I posed in the post. If it becomes apparent that Scientology is just inherently inconsistent, and incapable of, integration, evolution and transcendence, then I will need to go back the drawing board”.

    Wow, that maybe the case. I really don’t know anymore.

    I do think that Scientology, even before being fully reversed, had impacted and overwhelmed too many people.

    A lot of Scientologists don’t even realize that the identity they are asserting so proudly was assigned to them, it is not them and it is frankly an artificial valence.

    The “cleared theta cleared” goal is a wet dream and pure delusion if you can’t even recognize you are holding so dearly to an identity you were overwhelmed with.

    I’m really sorry for all the Scientologists that suffered the impact of this philosophy, but that are my views. I too wish scientology had come in a more humanistic, care free way, but we got what we got.

    • Conon, this is a very grim view of Scientology. I know many people, including me, who got lots of gains from Scientology, went Clear, resolved major issues that bugged them forever, got smarter and better. Nothing to be sorry about. Even those who are on lines now are getting something out of it: some case gain hopefully but minimally some understanding of life and the universes imparted by LRH starting with the basics such as “man is basically good”, the dynamics, ARC, etc. .

  52. I guess my morning two cents isn’t exactly over:

    Common statements : 1. “LRH said it was a workable system – not a perfect system”

    2. LRH never said he was perfect. He was a man.

    Both are true statements however I find they are used to STOP someone in their tracks when they point out that … well, true – not only isn’t it a perfect system but FOR ME it didn’t work all that well. OR for me, it meant losing my children. Or for me, it meant losing my mother and/or father and they DIED before I was able to see them. The list is almost endless and THIS is what I find so egregious.

    That saying “it was a workable system, not perfect” and because LRH said it makes it supposedly OK they many many many (and I’m NOT including myself here because I didn’t really suffer FROM scientology) suffered immeasurable pain of loss — and therefore they don’t exactly feel so beholden to LRH but are now made wrong by the more fundamental scientology — well, that seems really wrong-headed.

    “LRH never said he was perfect, he was a man.” True.

    BUT that doesn’t give him the right to have been cruel to some. (chain locker and over boarding). To have called people out. To have set up a system whereby people are divided (SPs etc etc).

    JUST like it doesn’t give the Tibetan Buddhist high lamas (“rinpoche”) the RIGHT to demand that no one question THEIR morals, THEIR intentions etc etc.

    TO me the only thing that works — is for people to be open enough to want to further whatever they might feel is right about themselves and continue to tease that apart every day by looking at what IRKS them, what makes them feel good etc etc …

    In other words — moving up a little higher — by hook or by crook :)

    Love,
    Christine

    • Galloping Pony

      Then why are you still hanging on to Scientology? Dissecting this and that. Chewing on significance. Talking about a man who accomplished more in his lifetime than many do in 100.

      If something doesn’t work for me, I’m outta there. If Scientology isn’t all that, go do your own thing.

      The truth is, it is giving a life force to even those who diss it and alter it.

      • Galloping Pony

        P.S. An Yes, while truth itself is not “original” and can be found in all the great writings, the methodology and protocols Hubbard created are 100% *original*. He originated them. So don’t justify making a living off a man’s life work by saying it wasn’t all that original.

        • What of our life’s work? We put a life into this. And we have an urge to understand it. We are curious about. She isn’t justifying making a living off a man’s life work. That’s a flat out false report. Maybe you haven’t gotten up to fear of worsening or need of change , even against the backdrop of the muddy mess and broken dreams and losses. That’s on you. Not on her. She is a PRODUCT of walking the bridge. Why can’t you honor that?

        • “So don’t justify making a living off a man’s life work by saying it wasn’t all that original.”

          BARF! VOMIT! For REAL? You are throwing THAT out here amongst people who labored days week months years decades for 25.00 a week or less, nothing? and / or gave hundreds of thousands of hard earned cash to the church?

          HUBBARD made a living off the backs of volunteers! He died with something like 480 million dollars in the bank. Miscavige lives like a rock star! Nobody else came out rich on this except David Miscavige.

          A handful of of field auditors manage to eek out a living listing to the woes of others and taking their burdens onto them selves. After DECADES of labor in the Sea Org people leave with a debt of 250K.

          GET REAL! This is SICK and TWISTED!

          Scientology is a life’s work for anyone deciding to be involved.

          “Nobody matters but L. Ron Hubbard” is exactly WHY nobody made a living off his work.

          The people that labored and worked their asses off MADE HIM MATTER! It wasn’t just HIS lif’e’s work!

          The way you revise and repackage facts and alter the math would disgust L. Ron Hubbard!

          • LOL!

              • Agree! Let’s hope that pony gallops on outta here before I take the bait too. At least Oracle left him/her in smoking ruins!

            • One person that got thrown out of the Sea Org ended up sleeping on my couch. He was a class 9 who had worked on the Apollo. A few weeks later his wife was dumped out of van in Miami onto the street with three small children. They had both put in over a decade of service to L. Ron Hubbard for 25.00 a week or less. That was in 1982. At that time I figure Hubbard had at least 400 million sitting in the vault.

              “The work is free” was a note he left on Mary Sue’s desk, that actually got mistakenly published as a HCOB.

              Just kidding………or not.

              The work was NOT free. It cost me 600 K to spend six six years in the Sea Org. It cost others too, the income they could have made but did not. Their families. Their children. Their marriages. Their careers. Their education. Their lives. Their fucking teeth!

              Most of these people got NO training or auditing in exchange. Because the whole time they were on staff, they DID NOT MATTER ENOUGH for anyone to take care of them. What auditing they DID get was in the form of torture.

              And there are people out here, that have left the Church, that will swear on a stack of bibles, they are “with Ron” on all of this. And everything else that is a product of his existence.

              But I have no obligation to flat out LIE and suggest people or myself owe it to Hubbard, who left and did not come back, to forward a virus like the finance and exchange policies he laid down. And the exchange policies those “with Ron” are insisting are biblical issue.

              Hubbard made so much money off of his life’s work he couldn’t spend it all. 480 million extra. More than he needed or could spend.

              That you are out here suggesting anyone making a living off of their own life’s work, dedication, education and experience, if it is connected to Hubbard, is committing some kind of crime , is pitiful.

              Those “with Ron” forward this. Jenna Miscavige who wrote of her madness, the losses, the Can’t Have’s, run her, the suppression, is being accussed of progiting off David Miscavige’s name by the Church!

              MISCAVIGE IS HER NAME TOO! She isn’t even supposed to be able to own that! She is profiting off HER life experience, HER name.
              Yet she is accused of piggy backing off of Miscavige, who is piggy backing off of all the staff?

              If you are so K.S.W. why can’t you think with ownership and exchange policies? They make perfect reason! What about exchange by motivation? Just like exchange by dynamics?

              If duty motivation is so high, and money motivation is so low, isn’t it obvious Hubbard felt he had a DUTY to MAKE MONEY? And didn’t he make it other people’s DUTY to MAKE MONEY?

          • Nice rant Oracle! The GP may be nothing more than the classic 1.1 with the LOL comment but I wanted to say that your statement:

            “The people that labored and worked their asses off MADE HIM MATTER! It wasn’t just HIS lif’e’s work!”

            …..is also true for me although I did not dedicate my life to CO$ as a staff member as you did. Well said!

            • Thanks. I have always considered myself on staff. Whether by contract or not. The lot of us have been on full time staff all of out lives as we are always working to lift up and expand Scientology and use it. That’s right, anyone who gets involved with Scientology is a full time staff member for the rest of their life. Yet, that goes unacknowledged. If you are not in uniform or taking orders, you “do not matter”. Until someone from the official Church wants to beef up membership stats to buy power from government officials or stage protests. Then they know who is on staff and who is not!

        • Galloping: this “dissecting” that you say Christine is doing but you are really meaning carping criticism, is called working out the dichotomy of peoples good and bad experiences.

          Ron overboarded old ladies who broke arms, LRH Jr an enemy, Quentin suicide, wife goes to jail, Paulette Cooper and all the black ops. On and friggn on. The hole, the doctrinaire hatred, the enemies!

          All this dark crap while having elevated cognitions on immortal existence and renewed sense of self.

          Do you know how to make a junk yard dog?

          You pet them and love them, get their trust, then you beat them. Then you love them make them feel safe, then you beat them. You continue this process untill the dog will attack attack attack.

          Scientology ethics and war policies (not the benevolence of good auditing or benevolent use of ethics to better life) has produced some junk yard dogs. A drooling mass of growling mistrust.

          Peope are working there stuff out here. The beatings, the trust, the good and the darkly unspeakable.

          I would call that knowing how to know, not dissecting. I would call that freedom to look and work walking through the mind field of approved self enslavement.

          And at the end of the day, I trust these good people working it out, “dissecting”, to save the good in Scientology.

          There is a big world in the human potential movement. I look forward to the day that rogues, artists and free thinkers can show the world how to help others with the good in Scientology and leave the junk yard dogs within the prison of internet scrutiny.

      • She isn’t “hanging on” to Scientology. She walked the bridge. She’s an explorer. She never said Scientology didn’t work for her. The distortion and wrong items and alter is is pretty think here.

  53. I went to the iScientology blog and apparently the article in question is no longer there. The blog looks great with contributors like Mark Shreffler. Marty, perhaps you should do the same and take this article down. Animosity (even if deserved) against other independents goes against what your all about.

    • That too is a corporate scn move. Let’s pretend it didn’t happen. Let’s pretend the bigotry doesn’t exist. Let’s not recognize our symptoms for lordy me it might get addressed. Sorry, I’m in the healing game.

      • I usually agree with you but not this time. I’ll bet Miscavige is overjoyed to see independents going after each other. The two articles that I could find by Michael Moore on the iScientology blog site (1. The Future still lies in the future and 2. Opening the door to freedom) didn’t seem to target you or your blog. If this individual is outspoken against your book and aspects of your blog it doesn’t seem easy to find. I searched and just found the same sort of insane OSA attacks on him just like I found on you. The real enemy is David Miscavige and those who subscribe to his methods. I don’t see how this article promotes “healing.”

        • There is no enemy. The malady is having to have one.

          • theosismanides

            Marty is not just a malady, it is also a method used to divide people. I agree with ThetaPotata that we have much broader schemes to take care of. The article was taken down and probably Lana Mitchell who is the admin on the blog does not want to create ridges amongst Scientologists. I personally like flows and not ridges, so why concentrate on ridges?

            I have said it many times and I will keep on saying it. The world is going mad day by day. Is it just my viewpoint? How are WE Scientologists doing something on this? Maybe we think we cannot. I thought we could and we should.

            Creating ridges upon ridges does not broaden our view. And also makes us introvert. You wrote the book what is wrong with Scientology and I have read parts of it. It’s a great book giving details and facts about DM and how he runs the church. Michael gave his opinion on what is right about Scientology. I can judge and see both viewpoints and pick up what I want from both.

            • theosismanides

              Now I see the article is back on. I am going to read the whole thing as I didn’t have a chance to read it.

              • I found it also. I was on iScientologyblog.com instead of iScientology.com, so, sorry for this mis-info. I’m still of the mind that lashing out between Independent Scientologists does more harm than good. I noticed there was quite a few positive comments on his article. If Michael Moore’s intention in writing that article was to protest the direction of this blog and the book “What is wrong with Scientology.” He didn’t do a very good job of communicating that. The guy appears to be out there offering people alternatives to Miscaviges brand of reverse Scientology with quality auditors (APIS has a list promoting very highly trained independent auditors.) Doesn’t that make him one of the good guys?

            • martyrathbun09

              You are barking up the wrong tree. I am way, way beyond it. Some folk are still stuck in a ridge with What is Wrong With Scientology? There is no enemy. The malady is having to have one.

    • ThetaPotata — You didn’t look far enough. It’s now the third article from the top. Scroll down.

    • I just went to the blog and the article IS STILL there. What you see as “animosity” I see as frustration. Michael Moore has been involved with reinventing and was as some point up to need of change. We are most of us, up to need of change with the current scene. That is why we are here.
      You think you know what others are doing and thinking, you think people are the same page. Then you wake up one day to discover someone has decided they are NOT up to need change. They are now working in stops, not changes. Hence, regression. That does does not breed animosity. It brings frustration.

    • Well, I just had to go see for myself.
      The article is still there.

  54. Marty,

    On January 24, 2009, I posted the following in my first substantive comments here at your blog. I still think the same:

    At the church’s core – and at Scientology’s core, too – is something rotten that must be cut out if anything good about Scientology has a chance of surviving. That worm at the core is “absolute certainty” and the attendant hubris introduced by LRH’s powerful personality, which so many Scientologists, staff and public alike, adopt and leverage.

    I’m talking about the kind of certainty that permits no consideration and discussion, much less doubt, of church policies and technology, training and auditing experiences, executives’ behavior, arbitrary social mores, and ecclesiastical dicta. Those who enforce this kind of certainty become arrogant and cruel. Those who bow to it become servile and self-loathing.

    Absolute certainty is the lukewarm bath we all willingly slid into as Scientologists. Gradually it got warmer, then hotter, and finally boiled the dreams of those who didn’t know they had the option of jumping out before it was too late.

    * * *

    When people are prevented from originating and contributing, but are only permitted to be pieces on a board, what else are they going to do but go downhill? When Scientologists go downhill, that’s the end of Scientology. In fact, that’s true of any group’s members and their group.

    If we were to look back on our entire Scientology careers and with 20-20 hindsight see more clearly who the real SPs were, I’ll bet dollars to donuts most … brooked no co-creation, not even the slightest little bit, on any of their programs.

    With that same 20-20 hindsight, what would we now see as the salient characteristics of our most beloved execs, auditors, supervisors, chaplains, MAAs and others who made us want to be part of the group and play the game? Again, I’ll see your donuts and raise you more dollars that those we trusted the most (and made the group strongest) were those who, among other things, invited co-creation.

    JM

    P.S. The above comments I made 4 years and 2 months ago here at this blog are proof that these topics have long been discussable here.

    • I agree with you mostly but C’mon a little certainty can’t hurt! Yes LRH had an ego the size of Texas. Guilty as charged. But that same ego is what allowed him to have the audacity to attempt to change the world. I know people (possibly myself included) who’s ego would size up to or shame Jupiter if they achieved half of what LRH did. Considering that he was quite modest actually. So what if he enjoyed running the show? So he suppressed a couple guys and claimed he did it all. OK he was human. So what? As far as I am concerned us humans are in deep shit. Not just knee deep but more like swimming in cesspool deep. You need a hell of a lot of certainty and a firm grip to pull us out of this. Not to mention stomach and willingness to confront. He had those qualities and had some ego baggage. Time to quit weeping about it and get on with what is usable.

      What is rotten is us and he dared to try to cure that decay. If you have something certain and guaranteed to work just leave it up to humans, we will fuck it up good. No problem. That we can do any time.

      Let’s pull the computer world as an analogy. Try making a perfect product that can’t be misused. You think it is possible? If yes then think again! People are trying to create idiot proof products all the time, but the only thing they have managed to prove is that sooner or later someone somewhere will fuck it up real good! If you need proof just talk to some tech support person. But not at Micro$$$$oft or any other producers of overt, unreliable, and strictly money motivated products. At some decent place that actually puts an effort into making things user friendly and reliable.

      Don’t get me wrong it’s not because I think we are stupid or flawed or something like that. It’s not even that I am arrogant. (which I may be) It all just boils down to missing information. People who have missing information on any subject or technology will not be doing too good at it.

      Computers are way way more wide spread than LRH tech ever was. Yet so many people so don’t get it. Yet it is said that most people should benefit from such knowledge even if their field isn’t computer related. So why doesn’t everyone jump to become a computer guru? Freedom of choice and interest may explain heaps of that question but also when someone doesn’t know something they have know way of knowing just how much they would benefit from that knowledge. They may have ideas about it as they see the examples of others who do know but that is not the same thing!

      People not into SC tech have no freaking idea of what they are missing. People who only pretend to get SC are in the same boat except they give SC a bad name and scare off heaps of the other group.
      What is missing is information. Knowledge. This is a very widespread issue in both cases. (SC and computers)

      It is us that is decayed. Decayed as a result of missing and ever present false information kept alive in our collective bank.

      The ever increasing population and our totally defunct or out dated education systems combined just make things even worse. New bodies are born every second and we have no way of teaching them real truth.

      We have manged to fuck up the only tech that was put here for us lately which should be in every godforsaken school. Simple stuff like student hat and the necessity to clear words immediately on the spot should not be news to anyone by now who is attending elementary school. These are not matters of cult or belief. The importance of using a fucking dictionary has not made it into the school system in the past 60+ years!

      Further more it doesn’t even look like it will as things are standing now.

      I for one think our attention is misplaced when we are addressing grown adults with the tech and put all trust on that. These basic principles need to be hammered, lobbied and preached into our school systems. Our future on the 3rd dynamic is only as good as important we think youth is.

      What have we done lately to get the basic tech into schools?

      (Oh, please no one start with Delphi or Applied schools because I will bury you under a rant so long you will never see the end)

      • me: “Know way of knowing” sorry about the mistake. :) I’ve meant “no way of knowing”.

      • A’=A states, “The ever increasing population and our totally defunct or out dated education systems combined just make things even worse. New bodies are born every second and we have no way of teaching them real truth. ”

        I have worked and volunteered in public US high schools for the last 15 years, working to help achieve actual reform using what we now know, and are learning about, effective education.

        It might surprise you to know that in current curricula the definitions of words, including derivation, are imbedded; just click on a word and the definition appears. We are teaching college level engineering and physics to high school students, including kids from low income homes. See the Project Lead the Way website for more on that.

        There’s much more good news about the successes we’re having. You can read about them in the Education chapter of the book “Abundance” by Peter H. Diamandis and Steven Kotler.

        It turns out that, given the human brain, and in particular the amygdala, bad news travels a lot faster than the good. Yet there’s plenty of good news out there. You just have to look for it.

        Love to all,
        Vic

        • Good to know Vic. Thank you.

        • Thank you, Vic, for teaching, tutoring, and mentioning that the world is also changing in some pretty cool ways right now. Here’s another way the world is improving – in the next 15-20 years, for the first time in history, more than half of the people in the world will NOT be living in poverty.

        • Thank you for that feedback. I do appreciate good news. My bit of frustration came from the fact that something trivial like word clearing which belongs to elementary school has not made it in there.

          Ritalin on the other hand did make it in there.

          Gee I wonder why?

          I’m sure the fact that there is money in pushing drugs to elementary school kids has nothing to do with that. (sarcasm)

          • The more I think of this the more absurd it looks now that I got started on this. Here we are all caught up with the damages DM has done to SC which I do not wish to dismiss as a nuance. But in comparison to what is being done to our children … well … think about it! It’s just that this is a real third dynamic issue that we need some true selfless acts on if we are to correct that. It is not something for us here, now. It is something for the next generation.

            I think the major issue here isn’t even the delivery of SC. There is only a small percent of the population who is open to SC. Can you blame them? By the time they get out of school they have solidified MUs and burnt out subjects. Fixed ideas. I think this whole thing needs to be turned around and ‘attacked’ from a different angle! We need to focus on the youth and bring the tech in from the bottom up. Let’s face it, this top to bottom (clearing the planet) thing didn’t work.

            Don’t get me wrong I’m not saying we should drop the efforts of auditing the living at the expense of clearing the not yet born. We need as many clears and OTs as we can muster. But at the same time we need to make some efforts to push these basic things through those money motivated lobbyists and politicians.

          • I understand what you’re saying and appreciate your desire for simple reforms, such as word clearing and the use of dictionaries, to be found more widely, and for the abuse of drugs like Ritalin to be confronted and handled.

            And I suspect that we could both rant at length about the two-faced sorties into education backed by the church: as in Delphi, etc. IMO, this really set us reformers back a step or two.

            I just wanted you to know that there are many of us who are involved every day doing our best to make a difference.

            • That’s good to know. I also appreciate your efforts. Now you have one more reformist. I’ll be damned if I don’t use whatever applicable power comes my way from now on to advocate such seriously overdue reforms.

              IMHO it is a screaming shame that SC-ists as a whole failed to deliver study tech to schools when that was more possible than it is now. It is a clear indicator that selflessness was not the dominant mentality.

              Like Phil Spickler so eloquently puts it at 3 minutes and 18 seconds into this video:

              (my most favorite SC related video, not that his others vids would be less interesting)

              Money, MONEY, MOONNEEYY!
              That right there explains volumes.

              Clearly there is no big money to be made in educational reform.

              Besides, I imagine lobbyists/politicians would flee at the mention of such tech being that it is connected to SC.

              • A!=A,

                You make my heart sing and tears of joy flow; in fact I had to stop typing to wipe my eyes and I had to remember to breath.

                You make an interesting point when you state, “Clearly there is no big money to be made in educational reform.”

                Not by the so-called fat cats, but surely by the rest of us. And there are much greater rewards than money, ask Marty and Mosey.

                We can do this thing. And two lifetimes isn’t even that big of a deal.

                Thanks so much.

                You made my day.

                BTW, please read the book “Abundance.” It gives me hope and a new road map. I’ll bet you enjoy it.

                As that bloody math wiz Oraclemysticism is want to say, thank-you for listening…
                Vic

                • Haven’t read that one yet now it’s on my to-do list.Thanks for that and the feedback!

                  While we are at the subject I have to throw this one in: The fat cats must be thinking something like this when they here reform: “god forbid we should have a bunch of capable fresh minds running around, it’s only a matter of time before they become competition” (fat cats tend to be very territorial critters)

                  IMO once money is introduced into anything it is very hard to keep it from getting derailed. Clearly money motivation did quite a damage to the distribution of SC tech. The moment we start measuring success solely on the bases of finance it’s all downhill from there.

                  It’s up to us who see the bigger picture to make it happen.

                  • Here’s a secret I’ve learned as a highly respected and effective teacher and coach: the “fat cats” need us. And we don’t need them. But we’ll teach their kids anyway *chuckle*.

                    When you stated “It’s up to us who see the bigger picture to make it happen.” you were BANG ON, as my students would say.

                    The times they are a changin’…

                    Finally, The Phil Spickler clip you chose was absolutely wonderful and spot on.

                    Later,
                    Vic

                    • Thanks for listening. Very reassuring to know there are people out there who see what I see. Even though I am relatively new to much of this stuff. Many things I write are “on the fly” COGs which I am still digesting.

                      I feel a change coming also.

                    • Ah yest the video …
                      I had to come back here in an attempt to flatten my button on that part and watched it 5 more times.
                      It ain’t happening :)

    • “Absolute certainty is the lukewarm bath we all willingly slid into as Scientologists. ”

      Speak for yourself. I’m getting awful tired of mysterious anonymous identities making broad sweeping claims about “we all” especially when they are Wrong Items. Smells like Black Scientology tech, to me.

      Michael A. Hobson
      Independent Scientologist

      • You can’t have absolute certainty per LRH.
        Absolutes are unobtainable…
        That datum is true for me.

      • The items and indications you are suggesting in your reply add up to a small list also Mike. What smells like “black Scientology tech” to you, is the story of someone who tried to put two kids through the public system, twice, who one school system tried to put his kids on drugs. The kids are on the bridge and on the grades now, on their way to clear.
        The “mysterious” identity, does not use the real name as a favor to his kids, who are actors. The one smelling like “black scientology, is on OT v and is a clear through three L’s. Not the “menacing particle” at all you unveil here. When you paint a picture of someone so far from the actual truth, it is you giving the readers a wrong item. Not everyone had evil intentions for using fictitious names. That you constantly assert it as a crime if people do not identify themselves and become a clear OSA target, is a crime you push consistently.

      • Further Michael, I went out of my way to enlighten you, that starting up witch hunts and justice actions here, simply restimulate people and blow people off the blog. And blowing people off the blog is knocking out support from under Marty.

        You either did not get the memo, you can not bring yourself to curb this purpose, or you are willingly going at it.

        “You can therefore know your enemies by those who seek to knock out any part of your:

        (a) Power
        (b) Authority
        (c) Personnel
        (d) Wealth
        (e) Property”

        L.R.H. Vital data on Promotion HCOPL 21 Jan 65 revised 5 April 65 Vol 2.

  55. My opinion is that if we think we are the only ones – then we will have a very lone future …!
    The statement does not hold in theory nor in practice, is just an all out invalidation of everything that philosophically or religiously is NOT Scientology.
    Scientology IS based upon those millennia of men search.
    They were not a final route? Fine.
    Is Scientology “final”? No.
    Is much more westernized, has been codified in a very applicable pattern and sequence of actions, its rutials are very precise and do produce result and is a marvel in itself.
    But to say that nothing else produces case gain is invalidating for example the theory regarding Former Releases, something produced a key out, and so case gain ALSO in a former practice, and also what is said about EDUCATION and STUDY in general as a way to get case gain.
    Scientology do produce if correctly applied the states that are written on the Grade Chart, but in the Church they cannot be achieved – at all because of the bigoted and arrogant attitude that is assumed and outside in the field one needs to concentrate in understanding for real what is the message and the essence of LRH legacy, because in the final hour is a one to one proposition between the auditor and his pc, or the SOLO auditor and his “bank” and only understanding will bring result, not bigotry, not arrogance.
    You said over, and over, and over and let me say it AGAIN…. OVER that nothing of the technology should and needs to be altered, so that said -That’s IT, BASTA…the BONAFIDE position is assumed and so why not try to integrate, evolve and/or transcend?
    Is probably because the approach is still uninformed, bigoted, and/or arrogant – and how much have I been so myself!
    And ARROGANT is what is worst in my opinion.
    But after having said all this I smell OSA OP galore…..

  56. Yes and Yes.
    Mr Moore ‘s article gave me such a strong deja vu.
    What is wrong with Scientology” opened a door to be a better scientologist with true understanding.
    This article countering it , with its generalities , shows Scientology as a victim , a pts entity .
    This small war of words doesn’t make any sense . It has “3rd party” written all over it .
    Or is it the effort to retain some illusory power?

  57. I believe that Scientology has done too much damage to people – and if you want to use what works in Scientology – change the name.

    In this world, Scientology is considered a evil cult. Do your own survey of people – I did – it is not looked upon as anything good or useful! The internet is full of horror stories about this “religion”.

    The good things in it needs to come out of the realm of “religion” and into self- help. I have never seen a clear or OT that Scientology promotes and claims to produce so the Bridge to total spiritual freedom is a scam.

    I looked hard the whole time I was in – never saw or experienced 1 person I thought had abilities of homo novus. In fact, I have met some pretty amazing wogs that have overcome real life obstacles not the ones the Bridge (time and money, work and family) enforce upon one in order to obtain these super natural powers. Also, the powers and levels of awareness do not stick. So – what is the use of doing the Bridge? Where does it lead for real??

    I went into Scientology thinking I will better understand the GOD I believed in – only hundreds of thousands of dollars later and many years – to be told by Hubbard that there is no God and that we were implanted to believe in a God and all the religious stuff were implants (Jesus etc) (something to that effect).

    What am I doing in this “religion” and is this an implant too? There is no scientific proof of of these claims. This is deceptive and wrong. The more I look – the more I cannot find the science and actual proof behind some of the stuff in scientology. The good stuff for me was in the first year – the rest I could have done without…not to mention the fact that Scientology can become a 3rd party to conflict with people’s personal life. Check it out for yourself.

    I have the right to believe in God – a higher power. Scientology was trying to sell me that I am a God – and then they don’t let you be your own God – it is a bait and switch and it is spiritual abuse!

    Get rid of the name – get rid of the lingo – take what is good and what works and start your own self-help thing~! Scientology has harmed too many people – it is like using the name Nazi and trying to make people believe it is good and has good things in it !

    I realize all of you are good people trying to help others with the good stuff in Scientology. I thank you for allowing people to speak their mind and appreciate everything you have to say as well. We can all learn the truth and that is all I want – the simple truth!!

    • Wow! A true advocate for thinking for oneself and not wasting time justifying the cult. Wow! Wow! Wow!

    • Theetie Wheetie, that is part of my story. I came for God and left because there was no God. I found a business at the end wanting my money.

      • Brian and Elle: Thank you for the acknowledgement. I really appreciate the fact that Marty is doing very good survey’s of what people really think and are giving them the opportunity to speak out.

        I am no where closer to finding God from my time in Scientology than before I got in – but now I am on a path again – just experienced a huge detour of time and money to find out what Scientology is not – a path to finding God.

        Scientology should not be called a religion.

        The Organization has totally abused its religious freedom rights of not paying taxes and slave labor – it has done too much damage to the members.

        The lies are the operating basis and the staff and Sea Org members can’t even apply their own tech – they have to lie and it is such a spin job on ones sanity – they will not last. They have forever damaged the name and the religion and I don’t think they could ever make up the damage they have done to most members!

    • Renaming Scientology? Radical. I like that. Sometimes extreme situations require extreme solutions and condition applications. Scientology needs to be gotten honest and straight in its roots and history of its development, in its own time track, in its technology (ethics-heavy, admin minute instructions heavy and that requires divorcing it from the Church and maybe even from its name.

  58. I grew up in a protestant home, went to a catholic school and ended up a scientologist. The cross pollination of ideas and philosphies and truisms run through. The differences are also apparent. Truth is truth without qualification of where it comes from or who thought about it or who said it. St Thomas Aquinas and LRH are on the same page in many aspects, yet centuries apart and fundamentally different. Scientology says “Look”. Christianity says “Seek and ye shall find”.

    Telling one where and what to look at narrows the visual field until it is tunnel vision – not a helpful thing when looking/seeking. Integrate and transcend will be my path.

    • “Scientology says ‘look’”. Christianity says “Seek and ye shall find”.

      Fundamental truths can be articulated in different ways. How about Jesus’ response to those who were accusing him and his Disciples of eating with unclean hands (paraphrased: “It is not what go into a man that defileth him, but what comes out of him”…and LRH talked about how O/Ws key in the bank.

      Christianity says, “Ask and it shall be given unto you”, the Secret calls it “The Law of Attraction”, and Scientology calls it, “Making A Postulate”.

      There’s a concept, a truth, and then there’s a name for it. The name is not the thing. We all want the truth, the concept. Time to really get this about the human condition and to respect their need for truth and just ditch the “my way or the high way” crap because it is soooo going down the wrong road.

  59. Brad Hagemo writes some powerful stuff…:”It is the nature of the human ego to insist on enforcing it’s “rightness” upon others. This has and always will create conflict because those who are being imposed upon have the same ego demands. The problems of man will not be solved until enough enlightened souls embrace universally understanding, compassion, forgiveness and love.”

    When I read this wonderful passage, a place deep in me gets touched, and my reaction is: “Yes, I want to embrace understanding, compassion, forgiveness, love… Its not easy because Ive become used to act otherwise.. But I to walk that walk..not to just talk the talk..
    If I was to pray (and who else is there to pray to but to myself in such context, my prayer would be:..” let me not enforce rightness upon others, even the rightness to have to be tolerant.., let me be tolerant, let me not just talk about embracing understanding, compassion, forgiveness and love, let me truly embrace them in my deeds, even when I am faced with confronting situations..
    Gandhi said, and many quote: “Let me be the change that I want to see in this world..” I want this change to begin with me. It’s a lonesome journey to be the first one to change, but if I want to journey from ignorance and darkness to knowledge and light, it is a necessary step..
    So much to learn, and so little time to live.. What Brad wrote reminds me of the importance to make each breath count, and to prioritize the walk over the talk..
    Love to you all

  60. Just to answer YES and YES.
    When I resigned form the “church” I found the Freezone and Michael and that helped me at that time to get more and more reality that what I perceived as out tech in the Church was indeed so and the only viewpoint was to get the true LRH tech back in usage.
    Now that we have that, it is time to MOVE A BIT HIGHER. I think that Micheal is not letting go of his postulate to get true LRH tech available.
    He has to “end cycle” and start a new one.
    Marty, you did open a new cycle for lots of people here (me included) and many thanks for that

  61. I don’t normally read the IScientology product, a little too rah rah for me, but I meandered on over there to read the full post under discussion….what did I notice? No comments from you in the comments Marty.

    Also that there now seems to be some competition for the “independent scientologist mind”. Two strong blogs exploring what is being called independent scientology, taking slightly divergent vectors.

    Have you tried to engage over there? Or are you blocked/moderated away. (As I have been here under a different name)

    Interesting via for scientologists, communicating via blog post and comments rather than directly.

    Me? I fully favor a very rigid KSW interpretation of scientology, and a freezone approach, and a Marty’s Intelligent MiddLe Path® version too. Diversity is strength.

    Now, back to my meditation bench for more Vipassana.
    :)

  62. Sorry if it seems off-topic, but has anyone noticed the effect the new Pope is having on the Catholic Church? Seems like a warm, inclusive-type being at the top is causing euphoria amongst the members but unease amongst the entrenched higher-ranks. Just interesting to note.

  63. Roger From Switzerland Thought

    Yes and Yes !

    It’s very interesting what all I’m experiencing in my new journey, since I left the Cult and how I’m freeing myself from the dogma.

    Every new day I’ve have new insights, but sometimes they are not easy to confront when I realize what an idiot I sometimes was.

    Sine the first days of this blog I was dreaming about integrate, evolve and/or transcend the subject of Scientology and thought it will be very easy to achieve if enough people understand !

    But this has always been the problem; “UNDERSTANDING”.

    This is a matter of education (also parental), experiences and also having the ability to diffrentiate and finally the intents of a person.

    I came to the final conclusion that my understanding of Scientology was predestinated by the qualities I had as a being when I started with it. I wanted it to be gentle, human and inspiring and I always found those elements in it .But people tried to teach me a different Scientology that is invalidative of wogs, the world….and very fanatic, rude and harsh as the world is going down. I could reread the references but just didn’t came to this understanding.

    Now, i’m free and I think what I think and I know there are people that think different and per their predestination they have, they read other Ideas in Scientology !

    I’m still looking for Scientologist in my environment that integrate, evolve and/or transcend and I’m sad about it as I couldn’t find one yet !

    I’m total fed up with dogmatic discussions, which are only a training of the memory about who knows more quotes of LRH, than voicing original thoughts.

    And you Marty you’re one of the few that is originating own thoughts about the subject.

    I’m very impatient ! I would like to see more people thinking own thoughts and not parrotting.

    Where are all the books that Indies should write about the subject ?
    Where are the new Foundations for the subject ?
    Where are the new discoveries about the subject ?
    Where are the websites communicating what Scientology really is without any Marketing behind , but just honest discussion of it ?
    Where is the Internet Database that can be googled for all LRH References and Tapes etc… so that people can inform themselves about what Lrh stated with all context included ?
    Why isn’t Superpower not delivered in the Indie field ?
    Where is the association of Indies that integrate, evolve and/or transcend and loosely organize themselves a little bit ?
    Where is the next book of Marty ? Why isn’t it yet out ?
    Why didn’t he write all what he wanted to write ?
    Why ? Why ?

    and where are real OT’s ?

    IMHO

  64. (Off topic)

    Is it anyone who can shed light as to who are the “cityrepresentatives” (in the CofS ideal-org-ribbon-cutting–ceremony-PR-films.) saluting Scientology for coming to town?

    • Portland – I knew some old timers in the class 5 org that told me how they got the opinion leaders of the area to speak at the events. They would find out what “charity or cause” that person was interested in and then support them in that. After they gave them support – they would then ask the opinion leader to speak after showing them videos of the humanitarian efforts Scientology was involved in. The speech the opinion leader read at the event was written for them by the Church of Scientology – it was not their own speech.

      I went to one grand opening and saw them reading the teleprompter. It poked a hole in my “belief” that this Church was ethical and I was heartbroken. This is when I started to have serious doubt about the propaganda I was being fed by the glossy promo and videos!

  65. “Are there any practicing Scientologists out there who see these
    types of public statements as uninformed, bigoted, and/or arrogant?”

    I don’t personally know Mr. Moore, so I am unable to comment on his character.
    However, I can comment on his writings. I suspect his intent on writing this piece was to point out the right things about Scn. Fair enough. No harm in doing that.

    Unfortunately Moore attempts to make his point by a shameless public display of know-best. He forwards the misconception that the world at-large is off-the-rails, while orthodox Scn is on-the-rails, hence the culture clash. It is the world that must catch up with Scn, because apparently, Scn holds the ultimate truth and our modern society is busy pushing man into the mud.

    This viewpoint creates a schism between Scn and the rest of the world. It is a schism that has been created by Scn, not the other way around.
    It is quite possible that the reason for their inability or reluctance to integrate, evolve or transcend lies in their fixed idea of moral, mental and spiritual superiority. To the radical Scnist, the world around them is inhabited by dramatizing banks and its all going to hell in a handbasket. To this degree, the radical Scnist is disconnected from the world around them, they are not in-comm with their environment or the beings in it. Marry that up with fixed ideas of superiority and you have a delusional state.

    Judging from the comments on Moore’s article, he doesn’t have to look far to find supporters for this kind of viewpoint. I find it telling that critical thought cannot be differentiated from natter and popular mud-slinging.
    Ironically, Moore’s attempt to explain what is right about Scn perfectly illustrates what is wrong with Scn.

    “Are there any practicing Scientologists who believe it is a wise
    course to attempt to integrate, evolve and/or transcend?”

    Of course it should. Why? Because virtually everything in the world does this to a greater or lesser degree. This may be the sub-current that drives civilization forward. Any worthwhile endeavor man pursues has one of these factors at work.

    For the radical Scnist, I feel the viewpoint is something like (with sarcasm):
    Integrate? What with this psych-ridden, drug-fuelled, reactive wog world? Noooo thank you.

    Evolve? What is there to evolve? Scn has all the answers, works all the time, every time. Secrets of the universe. LRH is the messiah and bestowed upon mankind the gift of Scn.

    Transcend? Huh? Didn’t I already do that when I signed up?

    To even consider integration, evolution or transcending you have to be out there in the world living life with the natives. You have to see the goodness in it, the rightness of it, the wonder of it. And be humble enough to see that the knowledge and technology that you possess may not be perfect, that another may be more suitable or workable, and be brave enough to use it.

    I reckon orthodox Scn can learn a lot from the rest of the world. The rest of the world knows it faces big problems, doesn’t pretend to have all the solutions, and is willing to work hard to resolve them.

    I live in that real world and have come to admire my work colleagues. They are decent, hard-working, funny, dedicated individuals. Unlike most Scnists I know, they do not claim to have all the answers or can explain all phenomena.

    Regarding integration, why not have specialized fields of study, like:

    Applied Scientology in Physics
    Applied Scientology in Economics
    Applied Scientology in Carpentry
    Applied Scientology in Creative Writing

    Where conceptual Scn is integrated into the various field? The closest we’ve come to that is WISE, but that is a whole another story.

    • Roger from Switzerland Thought

      +1

    • I don’t personally know Mr. Moore, so I am unable to comment on his character.
      I don’t know much about Mr. Moore. But for what I know his organisation made a lot of efforts to preserve and recover the training materials of Scientology.
      This is very valuable.

      I am glad that Marty didn’t make him wrong, but instead picked up a attitude and lets us communicating about it.
      This is good.

      I think some people didn’t get Marty’s concept of evolve/intergrate/transcend very well.

      And as the Book “What Is Wrong With Scientology?” is full of rightnesses about the Subject, I’d wish many more people would read it.
      The title is just spot-on.

      • Disagreeing with Moore regarding his viewpoint on Scn certainly does not make him a bad person. And I’m sure the work he’s done in the FreeZone has been of value.

        You are correct, it is the attitude which is the topic of discussion, including the responses to it (for and against).

        Personally, fundamentalism of any kind rubs me the wrong way. And when a Scnist does it, well…you could say they do it quite capably. But, I think it is very short-sighted. The apparency is that this attitude is keeping Scn working, and it may very well be – in the short term. But in the long haul, centuries from now, I don’t see it enduring.

        I am not anti-Scn, far from it. There is plenty of rightness within the subject. I think we all recognize that, otherwise why talk about it. I do think attitudes, both popular and unpopular, have an effect on the subject and what people do with it. Just don’t want to see it squandered.

    • “To even consider integration, evolution or transcending you have to be out there in the world living life with the natives. You have to see the goodness in it, the rightness of it, the wonder of it. And be humble enough to see that the knowledge and technology that you possess may not be perfect, that another may be more suitable or workable, and be brave enough to use it.”

      Awesome!

  66. To quote Phil Bruemmer, ” I am totally confident that I can involve myself with anyone of any practice, with complete ARC and not lose one iota of confidence in the tech that I trained in.” This is great Phil. This is real getting into ARC, not just pretending to have ARC for those “lower life forms over there…” which is what the church has devolved into. And yes we can read and discuss other realities without altering or diluting our own tech that we are trained in. The whole disconnection thing, now viewing it as a Scn who is “out” (as it were), is that of operating in the fear band of the tone scale. Those Scns are so afraid that they may rub elbows with “undesirables” such as SP, PTS, disaffected, bitter, etc, and that as a result of this elbow rubbing they’ll go incredibly effect and will “surely” get sick, ill, die, fall, make mistakes etc. This is NOT OT to be so fearful and at effect that you cannot stand to grant beingness to anyone else who isn’t as “dedicated” as you are and who doesn’t do the lock-step as well as you do. How binding and circumscribed that is! And how opposite of OT that is!

  67. My $0.02: We are alive and many of us can use some help with living. SC is a tool that can be applied to living by improving one’s ability of solving the problems related to living. SC tech can and has improved living for many. (I could add when done right, but then again if it isn’t done right it is not SC tech IMHO :)) Apply the tech to whatever it is you do! If it doesn’t apply don’t use it! Period.

    To me this is what integrate, transcend and evolve means.

    It doesn’t even matter (to me) how or what SC devolved into.
    The applicable tech it is based on is what one needs to focus on and ignore the rest.

    It is 2×4 in the eye obvious to me that those who can’t apply it as a tool because they didn’t get the tech on the first place will mystify SC tech and LRH. Instead of applying the tech to living they have turned it into a self containing new realm filled with randomly invented stuff and irrational logic.

    It would make sense that the knowledge of the tech is so overwhelming to those approaching it with roteness instead of curiosity that they end up seeing the whole tech as an abstract entity. The mind connects dots period. If it has to invent in order to do so it will. When you work with false/partial information it is only natural that it will fill in the blanks with ever colorful and ‘crazy’ ideas. There is nothing wrong with that except one needs to strive to match these ideas to reality from time to time. (all the time is even better) Those who don’t do that will end up believing in the weirdest crap like:

    - Various self contradicting space alien stories
    - Clearing the planet in one generations time
    - Clearing the planet by tipping over the Theta/Entheta ratio and assigning some absolute number to it like 10000 OTs needed
    - Auditing our global problems away by mega-squirrel group auditing of some made up BS entity at the Bahmas/Hawaii
    - Auditing over phone while Auditor holding the cans
    - Glowing the PC through
    - Gold plated cans make a Mark V more sensitive than a Mark VI or VII
    - Plants have meter reads on your evil intentions as you plan to cut them

    Such hallucinatory ideas are never ending and they all originate from the lack of conceptual understanding which is rooted in the lack of the urge to strive for such. (or even having the idea of such)

    This abstract entity is their world and all they know of SC. They are trapped in it and have long lost (if ever had) the the urge to check their imaginary world against reality. They won’t and can’t give up their made up world. At least not without some really good auditing. Which he will of course object to to the degree he already had not so good auditing or to the degree he didn’t even intend to have gains upon entering SC on the first place.

    IMHO all auditing does is help one to check their imaginary world against the real world and keep doing so until they develop a true habit of doing so on their own. This may seem like an over simplification at first but think about it! Of course one actually needs to have the urge and realization that doing so is a good idea. I have recently realized that some people don’t even have the concept that their subjective reality should be checked against objective reality. So how would they have an urge then?

    I don’t know the first thing about this Michael Moore guy but based on your post Marty, he seems to fit the abstract entity thinkers crowd.

    Is his title a self proclaimed one like Ray Roble’s?

  68. It just occurred to me that the answers to Marty’s questions here could also include the answers out this question: How did the simple tenents of what we know as the the original philosphy of Christianity – “You are your brother’s keeper”…”Love they neighbor as thyself”..”Do good to those that hate you”(just another way of saying that “hate is a total ridge, IMO) – how did these simple workable truths about our basic nature as immortal beings, eventually evolve into an organization that perpetrated the Inquisition, the Salem Witch trials? Here we have the simple roots of Christianity somehow eventually justifying – these things? It would be so interesting to be able to do a multiple sit eval to find the Real Why on this.

  69. Correction: “…how did these simple workable truths about our basic nature as immortal being eventuall evolve into ORGANIZATIONS that perpetrated etc. etc.” As Catholicism, Protestantism, Calvinism, Puritansim, etc. have all perpetrated extreme cruelties in the name of God and Jesus and so forth.

  70. The fundamentalist attitude expressed by Mr Moore
    goes into his actions. This is the story of my parting from IFA.
    Pat Krenik, who occasionally posts here asked if it could be placed in the IFA website where she was listed for many years , that she delivered NOTs and C/Sed solo NOTs. This was well known and she had been posted success stories
    on this for many years. I posted them further around. Pat
    had done solo NOTs C/Sed by Mayo via snail mail. This must have been an excellent learning period. She also has the services of 2 class XIIs if she needed a senior C/S. She has probably delivered more upper levels than anyone else in the US. She can also call on Phil Spickler if she wishes. She
    has been studying our subject since 1951, including under LRH.

    The response to her request was she needed to do lower conditions! The person giving this response lived 2 blocks away from Pat and he and another had taken some of her clients. Clearly a conflict of interest.

    I asked IFA execs if they delivered courses for the delivery and C/Sing of these levels or knew anyone who did. and they didn’t. In other words because Pat didn’t train on them in CO$ she was told to do lower conditions.

    So I wrote a post castigating them on their forum. Got thrown off. Pat is no longer listed as an auditor on their website.

    Mike Moore is very well intentioned and has done much
    excellent work. He would do even better IMO if he reduced
    the fundamentalism.

    • martyrathbun09

      Terril,
      Thanks. Can you tell me when this ‘de-frocking’ of Pat occurred?
      Marty

    • ” I asked IFA execs if they delivered courses for the delivery and C/Sing of these levels or knew anyone who did. and they didn’t. In other words because Pat didn’t train on them in CO$ she was told to do lower conditions. So I wrote a post castigating them on their forum. Got thrown off. Pat is no longer listed as an auditor on their website.”

      WTF? This is bizarre, as well as unjust.
      If this went down as described, then these “executives of the IFA” must feel that they are somehow acting as agents of the COS. Lower conditions? For what? Getting trained outside the COS?
      Isn’t this what us Indies are supposed to be doing ?!

      It is kind of important to know EXACTLY WHAT was said?, WHO said it? (Names if available), When?, and Under what circumstances?
      …..and then let the chips fall where they may.

      • If you like to know the names, I can give you couple: Chris Black and David LaCroix – they organized a “Class VIII reunion” meeting in LA end of last summer and REFUSED to invite the class VIII auditors trained outside of the church for that particular reason, as not credible because not church trained. I know that from telephone conversation with David when I was offering him to invite such. David also would not allow me to post on his Scientilopedia site the auditors in it’s classified by category that did not match the church training level. Say, someone class VIII trained outside the walls will be listed there as class IV or whatever he did in the church.

        • Thanks for the strings to pull, Tatiana, and I can pull one of them for sure.
          Time, place, form, and event as well as who, what, when, where are essential in determining fact from opinion for oneself.
          If this is as you say then Chris and David depend upon and recommend the COS (The promoters of Miscavige’s GAT Arbitrary) to validate the skill of auditors. That doesn’t sound very smart, does it? …..although, to be fair, the question then becomes how does one determine whether someone actually DID the course or just read a few bulletins and hung out a shingle? An interesting dilemma, because we have seen that there have been charlatans both inside and outside the COS. So that’s a hard one. Les recommends the “buyer beware” formula. Maybe that’s the best we got.
          Anyhow, thanks for the strings to pull. Much appreciated.

          • I don’t see the task of determining “who is who” as complicated. This is the way I would go about if I had to decide. I would ask someone saying he was a Class VIII:
            1) What checksheet where you trained on? Who issued it?
            2) Who Sup-ed you through the course?
            3) Can you show some success stories of PCs on Class VIII action delivered?
            If in doubt – ask the same on the meter.
            And even if they where not quite there for whatever reason, I’d accept them by the name they call selves and let them through their ACTION to prove it. I say – let them in and count on them as Class VIII, until/if they prove otherwise. Then if one fails in practice to meet the qualification assumed – send to Qual to re-exam to locate the troubled area and cram or retrain, whichever appropriate. :)

            • “Then if one fails in practice to meet the qualification assumed – send to Qual to re-exam to locate the troubled area and cram or retrain, whichever appropriate.”

              The only question then is: Send them to qual, where? And I know that you do NOT mean the COS. :-) So that is a dilemma. It seems that “caveat emptor”, i.e., “let the buyer beware”, is the best option.
              I noticed that Moore’s group, APIS, does have a certification program , but , as you pointed out, they do not, themselves, train auditors. It looks like they do have some good people who I recognize in that group and possibly their program could be helpful in finding tech terminals. But the question which will always remain is: “Who certifies the certifiers?”. That was the problem with the COS where the Supreme Certifier turned out to be one David Miscavige.
              So, I guess that in the final analysis, Caveat Emptor is where it’s at.

              • Well, speaking of who certified certifier you may go to those LRH trained and certified, while we still have them around. Mary and Frankie Freeman are both class VIIIs LRH certified. Frankie specializes on training and Qual. http://community.freezone-tech.info/freeman There are others, it is the matter of intention to find them. No need to mock up a situation. If it happens, there always will be a solution.

  71. I happen to agree with Marty and I do think it is worthwhile to point out the religious “We are the only ones who are righteous/everyone else is either ignorant and/or downright evil” computation, when it occurs and call it for what it is. At the same time, it really should come as no suprise that it happens, the same old same old dramatizations play out century after century, the same old folks sit on the councils to condemn the witches to burn and then sit on comm evs and issue expulsion goldenrod and try to kill you spiritually. The fundamentalist game goes on and on. Don’t know Mr. Moore. I’m sure he’s a very nice fellow who would give you the shirt off his back ……… as long as you agree with him. But just restimulate his religious righteous buttons …. and just make sure you’re not standing next to any dry straw, if you get my drift.

  72. gretchen dewire

    Integrate,evolve and transcend isnt that survival?

  73. Roughly a year ago. I’ll get more accurate details tomorrow
    and mail you.

  74. Also Terril, there is some missing data in your report. Who did what and how was Michael Moore invovled? Who assigned her lowers? IFA execs? This isn’t clear to me unless I missed to presume something.

  75. So, to paraphrase:

    “Scientology has all the answers. Don’t look anywhere else. Me? No, Im not in the church. Yes, LRH would’ve considered me a squirrel and in breach of KSW. Yeah, funnily a squirrel isn’t a good thing. So… yeah, Im not really following the word of LRH ‘strictly’, just picking and choosing what bits…. no, that’s not exactly what Marty is doing. This is totally different. Why? Shut up that’s why”

    **Storms off to write up Ethics Report**

    That’s what I think I just read. Is that about it?

    I love these ‘My Interpretation Of Ron Is The Right One’ games people play. I might see if I can make a board game out of it.

  76. The one who assigned lowers is the deputy OEC APIS. Mike Moore is don’t forget the President of APIS where the buck stops.

    • If that is your presumption, as I suspected, it is merely a presumption and generality on your part and otherwise forwarding Black Dianetics.

      • Its no presumption. I have the relevant mails or copies from several horses mouths.

        Why do you think I do Black Dianetics?

      • Alaska, I have never known Terril to issue a false report. He is very, very careful to forward any piece of data if he is not given every evidence. He has been holding the communication lines of the Freezone together world wide for over ten years. He is a walking encyclopedia for time place form and event and who what and where for Freezone planet wide.
        He was the ” go to” person for anyone leaving the Church until about four years ago.

      • I can also witness to the best of my knowledge that Terril is a trust worthy source of data he gives.

  77. Statpush writes: “To even consider integration, evolution or transcending you have to be out there in the world living life with the natives. You have to see the goodness in it, the rightness of it, the wonder of it. And be humble enough to see that the knowledge and technology that you possess may not be perfect, that another may be more suitable or workable, and be brave enough to use it.” How true..

    I’ve been around many new religious movements over the last 40 years. While almost all were founded by people looking for integration, evolution and transcending, most tend to develop over time a resistance to integrating, evolving and transcending.

    A shift happens over time in the people at the top, and in the movements. The initial attitude of humility in search and awe in discovery gets replaced by a certain smugness of “holier than thou” as the movement evolves from from grassroots to an organized institution.

    I believe this trend is avoidable, but it is a big temptation, and most movement succumb to it. It takes personal depth and courage to not just talk about integration, but to live it. Same for evolution. Something in us would like to stop evolving and enjoy the comfort of old, obsolete knowledge. Julius Enre, a 13th century mystic from Turkey wrote; “I have not come here to settle down.” It takes inspiration to not settle down on the journey of life, to wake up every morning and to be ready for a new adventure of the soul. Personal transformation and salvation demands a relentless spirit of adventure and the determination to swim against the current.

    Integration, evolution and transcending are a great agenda. Now I see that

    Now to my second point……..Marty, you write: “If it becomes apparent that Scientology is just inherently inconsistent, and incapable of, integration, evolution and transcendence, then I will need to go back the drawing board.”

    I don’t know Scientology well enough to have an opinion about this, but I find this to be a loaded and fascinating question…….. Marty, in this sentence, by “Scientology”, do you mean the institution of the Church of Scientology, or the religious technology behind Scientology? Or the Scientologists? Thank you

  78. For a change I post a Russian song that I translated as close as I could.

    Denis Majdanov

    Nothing to regret

    One thousand one hundred generations of sold out dream,
    One thousand one hundred generations – love and war.
    Everyone’s born with idea to rich to the skys,
    And for us as well now, as at all times -
    Nothing to spare, no bayonets, no roses
    If for the dream, if for the cause.
    Nothing to regret, no fire, no words,
    If for the dream, if for the love.

    It’s naive to think that someone gets tired in battle
    And will unselfishly give you a happy perspective.
    Just you believe that for someone as well as to you
    For this one hill, for this one medal -
    Nothing to spare, no bayonets, no roses
    If for the dream, if all earnestly.
    Nothing to regret, no fire, no words,
    If for the dream, if for the love.

    Maybe you wished to remain someone else,
    Maybe just wanted to live and fly freely.
    You know, in life there is always a chance to remain anyone,
    But the question is: what will you have to give up for it?

    Nothing to regret, no minutes, no tears,
    Reach for the stars, Reach for the stars.

    Nothing to sorry, no bayonets, no roses
    If for the dream, if all for the cause.
    Nothing to regret, no fire, no words,
    If for the dream, if for the love.

    • I am sorry for double link. Marty, could you please erase one? It should have been only one video. I was not sure which way of writing link would work and put both – turned out they both are good.

  79. Tai chi is a physical form of practising the tao, a martial art form about how to deal with an opponent. The key instruction is to “invest in loss” – because, to want to win or to fear to lose is off balancing and one becomes ungrounded. The tai chi practitioner, truly invested in loss, is able to relax in place, rooting into the ground. When the opponent comes towards or retreats, the tai ci practitioner turns at the waist and moves out of the way. The opponent falls due to the force and nature of his or her own energy. This can be applied at all levels of combat not just physical. The tao may not always appear to work as fast or when exactly we think it should. But if you are privileged to live long enough you do get to see it works and there can be justice (at least for a moment.) Good to think of this when thinking of an “enemy” and how to fight.

    I have also thought of this ” invest in loss” in times of grief, as is much here expressed of lost selves, persons, time. Perhaps sounds cold but to me it suggests redemption can come. And it is relatable to ” the only way out is through.”

    Yes to integration, evolution, transcendance.

  80. Well, I think the whole deal from Moore is about power and identity.

    Marty has set up a big tent that is big enough to hold any and all of us who have found any of Ron’s teaching and techniques useful. The tent is big enough to include Freezoners.

    But Freezoners want their own identity, and probably their recognition, power, and validation of their efforts. To get their own identity, they essentially have to say how they are different from Independent Scientology. That will naturally tend to drive them back toward a fundamentalism and literalist approach.

    In that approach they will confuse legitimate debate and inquiry with natter. They will confuse exploration of all Scientology’s roots with forbidden forays into other practices and they will mix up, in true A=A=A style the willingness to grant beingness to others and other philosophies with dilettantism and and alteration of tech.

    I’ll tell you what I have thought all along. Marty is right, and he is right in the sense of “how right can you be?” (immortal) vs. “how wrong can you be?” (dead). Marty is pointing the way out of a cave. Toward light and freedom and openness. We can all see it. Michael, whom I don’t know at all, seems to be saying “no, stay in the cave, it is horrible out there.” It’s not horrible out there. It’s life. And what is workable in Scientology will withstand any and all scrutiny. No need to hide it as if it is a fragile soap bubble that will pop any second or be carried away on the wind. What will kill it is keeping it from the light of day, and making its fundamentalist believers sound ill educated and misinformed about all the thinking and work of good men and women throughout the ages.

    Scientology is in trouble because it is hard to get a new reality in on people who think they are bodies and brains? Really? The world has billions of Muslims, Christians, Hindus, Buddhists, and so on. Last time I checked, most of them do not consider themselves to be meat bodies. And most of them seem to believe there is personal responsibility for behavior (just as atheists do to be sure).

    Well, I could say lots more I guess. But I think Michael does not have a rich view and understanding of the dynamics. And I do think this is about a political thing called branding — how is Freezone distinct from IS? What’s the differentiator? What Michael is really doing is in effect claiming that the differentiator is that Freezone is right and IS has gone too far.

    Sorry, but I don’t buy that view because the only thing that I want to buy is freedom — hence my stage name here as FOTF = freedom of thought forever.

    Keep on, Marty. I believe you are correctly pointing out the only way that Scientology can survive, avoid relegating itself forever to cult status, and even thrive. Yes, thrive. The world is actually hungry for the kind of knowledge Michael thinks it is not seeking.

    • FOTF12
      “But Freezoners want their own identity, and probably their recognition, power, and validation of their efforts. To get their own identity, they essentially have to say how they are different from Independent Scientology. That will naturally tend to drive them back toward a fundamentalism and literalist approach.”

      You lack a historical viewpoint. An example of FZers melding their identity with independents:-

      IFA International Freezone association changed its name to
      APIS……..- – idependant -. But its the same people.

      Same people. No different.

      Fundamentalists grouping together.

      The dichotomy is fundamentalists v Scientologists. Oops Liberals.

  81. >Are there any practicing Scientologists out there who see these types of public statements as uninformed, bigoted, and/or arrogant?

    I believe that it is you whose button is being pressed, and it is you who declares his point of view uninformed, bigoted, and/or arrogant, on the basis of your own arrogance, bigotry and lack of information. I say this not to invalidate you, not to troll you, but to point out that, just perhaps, your withold is being missed, Marty.

    Marty, you live in a bubble. Your position in society now, resolutely middle-class, would provide you with much that you would find discomforting if you were to venture outside that bubble.

    Go live in a slum for a month. Move to central Europe, any ol’ city will do, and live in the unemployed districts for a few months. Take a good, honest, real look at the lives of the average people around you. Sit in front of a TV in some modern, western nation somewhere, and count the ads for pills. Count the ads for ‘making things easier’. Count the # of times some character shirks their responsibilities, and gets rewarded for it.

    Some, sure, living in a happy, content, affluent middle class bubble – sure, there are great examples of people moving up a little higher, but ask yourself this question: where to, exactly? Just another class of society, perhaps?

    You will find that there is indeed, all throughout society, a driving desire to reduce responsibilities, reduce personal effectiveness, and drive the individual into a position of such low havingness, that they *need* to buy what they see in order to feel good about themselves.

    Read a few of the non-Scientology references I’ve sent you over the last few months, Marty – the video about the CCC hackers who are fighting our *real* enemies, the masters of the American Military Industrial machine who are, by way of real actions, truly fascist:

    (“Not My Department” – even the HACKER community has noticed that the world is being driven insane by those who wish to deny their responsibilities for the mess we are in.. did you go past this MU?)

    Watch this video:

    http://www.filmsforaction.org/watch/culture_of_fear/

    Try this one too:

    http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/surplus-terrorized-into-being-consumers/

    *NONE* of these are Scientology films, yet every single one of them depicts the very madness that Scientology – standard Scientology, not the Church – is attempting to rectify.

    Marty, just take a better look at the *SCENE* removed from Scientology. Use some obnosis. Your society and its culture is *NOT* in good shape, pal, and there are big businesses, and real individuals behind the curtain, who are driving it there..

    >Are there any practicing Scientologists who believe it is a wise course to attempt to integrate, evolve and/or transcend?

    I believe it is wise, and I believe it is LRH who said we should do it. Not you.

    • martyrathbun09

      Armaggedon drive ruined Scientology, and will do so again, in my opinion; thus the essay.

      • There is no question that the doomsdayers have ruined the Church – but look around you, there are definitely doomsdayers living and working in the main society at large, wrecking things, too .. its not a Scientology-only affliction.

        • What exactly is a Doomsdayer? Please remember this is also a ‘label’.

          As an example, an individual who observes that some present time activity (such as the central bank activity of printing fiat currency out of thin air) may lead to a collapse of the currency and the general failure of the well being of a society. When the individual is willing to so state his concerns along with making the points as to why this might happen, there is a tendency to label him a doomsdayer and move along. This is a nullifying activity and that alone would become a far more ‘wrecking’ activity than simply using A, R and C to discuss the issues at hand.

          I would invite everyone to take a look at some key issues which we all face. Our economy, and that of the world is at risk for obvious reasons. Less well understood is our dependence on fossil fuel as our primary energy source. It was in 1956 that a fellow named Marion King Hubbert submitted his findings on Peak Oil (check him out on wiki) and due to a nullification campaign has resulted in this vital data being suppressed. There are many issues that we can observe and take action on without resorting to labeling and nullification.

          A very good source to review these impending pressure points (economic, energy and environmental) is at http://www.peakprosperity.com/ and I strongly recommend doing the free Crash Course that cover those issues presented on that site.

          • Roger From Switzerland Thought

            Since centuries the same old stories!
            Nevertheless of those prophets Man is still alive and evolving !

          • Doomsdayer is a word I believe that Marty, and I, euphemistically coined in this thread, sort of by accident, in order to refer to those individuals who are operating on the 3rd-dynamic principal “of doom”; i.e. “the aliens are going to invade”, or “the prophet is coming”, or “the ufo is parked out back, lets take a ride”, and so on.

            This action of assuming a dead-horizon is an inherently suicidal *valence* (please clear this word if you need to) which is a contagious group-think derived ‘active personality’ – and yes, maybe its a ‘label’ in the heinous sense, but maybe then again it is an actuality, which phenomena can be actively observed, should one care to describe it.

            Anyone not inventing a new tomorrow for fear of what the dawn may bring is pretty much not living their lives to the fullest. If the aliens do invade, or an asteroid hits, or a blackhole erupts on the Whitehouse lawn, or any one of a million, no INFINITE, ways the MEST Universe can doom us all to hell in our current lifetime, at this present moment in time .. well then .. lets just say that some of us will be *fully* prepared for the event, while others .. perhaps it will be the one ‘right moment’ they have in their life.

            Either way, its no way to run a Church.

        • Just curious Gern, and I don’t mean this in a mean way, but are you doing anything to fight these things?
          I have seen people who get all riled up about the state of the planet and they don’t do anything, (or much ,anyways) about any of it.
          I think most people know that the planet is not in great shape. I don’t think it does anyone a lot of good to get all worked up over it and all agitated. That is not a very good mental state to operate from imho.
          I think it is better to be positive and to help the things you are able to. The more people do this the better state we will be in.

          • Its a fair question and I don’t in any way take it as a mean one.

            I am personally fairly content with my own counter-actions on this 3rd-dynamic situation. I’m doing all sorts of things, creative and intelligently planned, towards rectifying the ills I perceive the world suffers. (The Military-Industrial Complex, basically, and any form of industry which profits from people not establishing better, loving, lines of communication as a means of making their lives better. If you’re making weapons, if you’re making war, if you in any way fundamentally prevent communication, or profit from its denial, then you’re fair game.)

            I am working with an active social group locally, and we are very well and truly out here doing what we believe will assist society in the coming battles ahead – promoting open culture, open lines of communication, clearing of misunderstoods, cross-cultural boundaries crossed and bonded. I am part of an active group whose purpose is to assist anyone in understanding anything. It doesn’t have anything to do with Scientology, although it probably should. I bet it will, properly, at some point, begin to find the Scientology subject itself a worthwhile thing to communicate about.

            I will say that you are truly correct, that those whose wheels spin on the problems of the world, end up doing themselves in .. again and again and again.

            It truly takes a group, in great communication, to get anything done in this world, about the problems of the world – whether the group has a nefarious or otherwise good purpose, or not – the group is essential to most human activities. If you want to get something done: find 12 other people who will do it with you, and then do it together. Or 3. Or 5.

            To do this a few times, over, is to wake up to the fact that there in fact *is* a group bank, that groupthink is that bank in action, and to spot it and recognize this phenomenon at a social level – this is really a motivating factor in why integration, as a Scientologist, is so key.

            A lone Scientologist, working against the 3rd-dynamic bank using the immense tools granted him in the OEC’s, can turn pretty much any human organization – whether it be a gang of cannibals, or a mob of superheroes – into a formidably powerful new form of itself.

        • We live on planet Earth. This is the definition of Hell. There are always people trying to do in other people. There are terrorists who blow up their children for the cause. There are rich white people who are setting up schools for poor colored people so they can do their menial labor. The Greeks had slaves. The Romans had slaves. We had slaves in the US until a very short time ago. “Witches” were burned at the stake alive. Captives were boiled in oil. Sailors were keel-hauled in the British Navy.

          So cussing what? Of course there are bad people. Get the cuss over it. Feeding fear lowers yourself. Wake up and find the happy people. Laugh at these jokers.

  82. Don’t know why my comment got deleted … :(
    I try to express myself more clearly.
    I think that arrogant attitude that mankind has no other techniques to get out or get free is stupid. And I know we all who were in Scientology had to some greater or lesser degree this attitude as it got over and over repeated to us and we also said it to others. (Almost embarassing when one looks back … :) )
    I think Scientology has to integrate and evolve … of course! Take Buddhism. It had a lot time to evolve and there were very smart teachers in the past who came up with very workable techniques. And a lot teachers continued their job now over a lot life times (like Dalai Lama and other acknowledged reincarnations).
    And some evolved some techniques to such a high state which is called the rainbow body phenomenon (I just read about it recently. Never heard of it before …).
    Following it the description …. I think that is really OT!
    (MY COMMENTS IN BIG LETTERS)

    Rainbow body (Tib. ja lü; Wyl. ‘ja’ lus) — fully accomplished Dzogchen practitioners can dissolve their body at the time of death.
    Through the practice of trekchö (A TECHNIQUE BY THE REST OF MANKIND :) ), the practitioner can attain the so-called ‘rainbow body’, in which the body becomes smaller and smaller as it dissolves, emanating rainbow light, and finally only the hair and nails are left behind.
    Through the practice of tögal, the practitioner can dissolve his or her body into the ‘Light Body’ (Tib. ö ku) (MAYBE THETA BODY???), where the body transforms into light and disappears completely into space. This was done by Garab Dorje, Manjushrimitra, Shri Singha, Jnanasutra and Vairotsana. (APPARENTLY DOCUMENTED ….)
    Another accomplishment of tögal practice is the ‘Rainbow Body of Great Transference’ (Tib. ja lü phowa chenpo; Wyl. ‘ja lus ‘pho ba chen po), where the master dissolves his body into rainbow light and lives for centuries in order to benefit others. Such was the case with Padmasambhava, Vimalamitra, Nyang Tingdzin Zangpo and Chetsün Senge Wangchuk.
    Other Examples
    Nyala Pema Dudul (1816-1872)
    Khenchen Tsewang Rigdzin (1883-1958)
    Sonam Namgyal (d.1952/3)
    Khenpo Achö (1918–1998)
    (Source: http://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?title=Rainbow_body)
    More can be found when one googles that.

    How can one just whipe away all this experience (!!!) of the east?!??! They had ages to practice and refine their techniques….

    There is also a meditation in the Dzogchen (Buddhism) I came across yesterday. You scan your body (!!!) and find areas of “disturbances” and look closer and observe it and find the “stillness” in it and be that stillness (at which moment it blows of course). Anyone who knows about the OT levels will see some similarities.

    After I got out I had to learn there are a lot techniques outside, you have to think for yourself, you have to evaluate yourself, blind trust is wrong, and Scientology has to evolve and integrate.

    Just my opinion…. (for now … :) )

  83. Perhaps some people need Hubbard to tell them why things are and that some absolutes are obtainable. I used to confuse black-and-white thinking with “certainty”, and in many ways it makes life incredibly easy and simple. This is what I call religious scientology. Faith. Perhaps integration upsets the core beliefs I’d hazard are shared by the majority of its followers: that Hubbard discovered a route out of some mysteriously sinister “trap”, that there are no explanations to be found elsewhere as to why processes work, and why, if they were honest with themselves even just a tad, the subject is to be revered.

    What people choose to believe is up to them. But personally, I’m not big on faith. For scientology (with or without a capital “s”) to prosper in a modern world then integration is key. I also believe Hubbard must be rejected to some degree for this to occur (note: I am not advocating the alteration of auditing tech).

    • In Hand book for preclears , LRH writes about the Ideal state of Being .
      “How closely the individual may attain such a state depends largely upon his own willingness to work on the matter rather than the validity of the tenets themselves”
      Right or wrong , each individual chooses a path .It is freedom of choice and application of knowledge to life as well as granting beingness to others who might choose differently that will advance the “redissemination” of Scientology..
      I only just recently got out of my faulty bubble , i’ll be damned if I am going to get into another one. Different shape , different color but still a bubble.

  84. Lots of wonderful thoughtful comments here and I usually don’t have much to add but here goes…
    I have found that broad negative generalities are used to control and incite fear or feelings of superiority. Mr. Moore’s initial comments seem intent on creating this very scenario. He may make them to control or he may be ignorant of the impact these types of generalities have on people. In my opinion they don’t bring one to a higher understanding. And they certainly do not help one to integrate, transcend and evolve. Do I think it is possible for Scientology to integrate , transcend and evolve? Certainly! But it is not the only path…The tendency in Scientology (and this tendency was created and promulgated by Ron) is to separate and be the “only” and to infer superiority over all others. This tendency eliminates the opportunity to see and experience and appreciate other perspectives that could teach and further enlighten. Which is the shame of where Scientology ended up. Marty’s posts this year have finally moved beyond Miscavige bashing which in my opinion is truly wonderful. He has certainly gotten me thinking and expanding my search for meaning, so I have to thank him again.

    • I think your post is wonderful…and you are so right about Ron being the one that encouraged all of us to separate from any other practice.
      The whole PR thing…. that Ron embraced other religions and philosophies is just that…PR. He even said “be skeptical” but if you wanted to meditate or maybe attend a Zen Buddhist meeting then you
      were a squirrel or doing other practices and would be taken off auditing immediately and sent to ethics. It has never been “just” Miscavage that put this in….it’s always been like this.

  85. “Are there any practicing Scientologists out there who see these types of public statements as uninformed, bigoted, and/or arrogant?”

    Yes, all three. I would also add misinformed, referring to the heavy indoctrination such statements would seem to indicate.

    “Are there any practicing Scientologists who believe it is a wise course to attempt to integrate, evolve and/or transcend?”

    Not only wise but indispensable.

    Also promising. I like the idea of Scientology being a live science that can be evolved into something even better than it is.

  86. Of course, I believe it is a wise course to attempt to integrate, evolve and/or transcend. I also believe that would include Pax Scientologica rather than giving OSA Bots reason to gloat.

  87. I don’t call myself an Independent or practicing Scientologist. I consider myself an individual who uses what I’ve learned from Scientology in my life.
    I use that Scientology which is real for me and I don’t use that which is not. I also hope I can let others do the same.
    I read the Beliefs of Independent Scientologists on the IScientology site. I’m not disagreeing with most of the statements but, I didn’t find that they covered some of my core beliefs. I think there are many viewpoints on what an Independent Scientologist is, depending on who you are talking to.
    Although I agree with and enjoy much of what I see in the Independent field and love many of the people, my beliefs are my own. That is why, I’m not going to label myself.
    I will continue to support what I believe is helpful and disregard what I don’t. I thank those who fight for human rights and for those who have been harmed.

    All that said I’d like to thank you, Marty for always caring and being the best auditor and one of the best friends I have ever had.

    That’s all I have to say. :)

  88. Question 1

    I do not know the author of the article in iScientology (Michael Moore) personally and haven’t bothered to read the full articlle. I’m sure he isn’t the devil incarnate. Marty never said he was, so I don’t think of him that way! (OK, OK! Bad joke!)

    However, from the brief excerpt mentioned in Marty’s article it appears Marty has a point — once again.

    One thing I have learned in my life (with due modesty) is that one should be certain of his own path to elightenment and tolerate every one else’s. If one ever felt the need for Fundamentalism, then one should fundamentalize along this path: cement certainty of your own path and open one’s mind and tolerate everyone else’s path.

    Selling to others one’s own way of thinking (or proselytizing, if you will) only ends up in making one more interesting and less interested. Anyone with a bit of training knows why that’s not good for you.

    Question 2

    The Latins used to say: “Repetita juvant.” We Scn’ists would say: “TR3 works.” Basically, I’ve said it before and I will say it again: Scientology means knowing how to know. It is the key to understanding a whole universe of things. This does not imply altering its technology in any way, shape or form.

    How is a being supposed to become knowing cause over the 8 dynamics when he starts building partitions of knowledge? Right there lies negation of one of the points of the KRC triangle and those on this blog, in this very article, who have mentioned this very concept in very many ways, will agree: you can’t be OT if you close yourself off to the vast knowledge that is out there! You cannot become freed or regain abilities if you conceive the body of knowledge of Scientology the end-all of all knowledge — because Scientology is first and foremost a key! To assume otherwise is tantamount to a shirk in responsibility — like a bunch of sheep waitiing to be fed “knowledge” so we won’t be so sheepish anymore!

    Marty and LRH mentioned this in various ways, too — by the way. It’s not something I dreamed up one fine day.

    And just so we are all clear: the reason why some people on the OT band seem so not-OT is because they are waiting for the “shepherd” (read Miscavige or the despotic tyrant religious leader of the situation) to feed them the next “OT Levels” or next “Super-duper-never-before-released Rundown” that is going to make them become so super-duper OT that all Earth will be cleared in split seconds — just like a bunch of sheep.

    “God forbid” if any implanters ever bothered coming to this planet again! all these “OTs” would immediately crawl up and die — or, worse, dig deep under the mud LRH worked so hard to get them out of! It’s like when a Pope dies and finds out: “Ooops! What you mean? Where are these damned Pearly Gates?!”

    Transcending means waking up to look at a higher plane . It means rehabilitating one’s ability to travel the path to reach it. Which path you choose, is up to you but it is not a narrow-minded path that leads you there — of this I am 100% sure. Of course, I have just expressed a portion of my certainty of my own path to enlightenment; I am completely fine if anyone disagrees with me.

    Marty, I believe we are still on the same page, yup!

  89. I have read again the statement made by the person from the Freezone Association. In today’s western society man is cultured into believing that he is basically bad, cannot be changed for the better,
    I very much live in the world professionally and socially and Im exposed to a lot of spiritual currents. What he says is really out of touch with the reality of what is happening. There is a huge mass of people out there, many hundreds of millions of people who believe that man is basically good and can be changed for the better.

    Believing that man is good and can be changed is hardly a novel view these days. It is not at all an isolated view held by a few enlightened groups.

    Where Scientology can help is by contributing its unique technology, not ethnocentrist views such as the ones advocated by Mr. Moore. Religious movements that consider people outside their circle to be inferior or narrow-minded are hurting themselves by doing that way more than they can even imagine.

    It’s so much safer to assume that other people are smart, well-intended, insightful, and all this good stuff. And then you can help them be even smarter, even more insightful. Having this approach levels the playing field, makes you a nicer person, and makes everyone’s life so much more enjoyable! Inclusion is a mindset, a way to look at the world, not a destination where one selectively accepts those who have surrendered to all your beliefs..
    It feels good to be inclusive, accepting, considerate of others, to give them the benefit of the doubt and assume that they are enlightened each in their own way. I recommend this to Mr. Moore!.

    • theosismanides

      Paul, I think the words “cultured into believing” are important in what Michael Moore wanted to say.

      We all see the layman trusting people and believing in them. However there is a fierce and ruthless group of people around the planet who even put there deliberately their own puppets to govern whole nations, who just want to control people. All political history on this planet is full of such examples and leaders who would be ruthless.

      I think Michael Moore is not talking about the layman but those who see to it that those laymen are cultured into believing they are just bodies or others are bad.

      I will give you one example since I am Greek from my own experience in Greece. For years now the media, school education and other national and governmental agencies have been trying to paint a bad picture of the Turks for Greeks. Same I am sure goes with Turks for Greeks.

      However, many Greek people who have visited Turkey and have made acquaintances with Turks have said they are wonderful people. This is shocking if you think of it.

      Our history though is full of those past traumatic incidents with the Turks, for the last 600 years.

      Greek people (and I believe Turkish people too) are being cultured into believing the other nation’s citizens are bad and thus animosity goes on and on between the two nations for obvious reasons: You have to create enemies otherwise you cannot rule people and nations. Divide and conquer, 3rd Party Law?

      So, I think the words “cultured into believing” are important here.

      So there are those few who have key posts in this world (see Miscavige, a typical example of this) who promote a hate agenda or do their best to keep people apart, ignorant of key data about themselves and life and similar things. Schooling has become a nation’s propaganda machine. I don’t know in the US but here in Greece it is. I am sure it is like that in other places. Religion has become the same. Scientology is made into a religion fitting their purposes. Why are they not shutting it down? It will help them control people in the future like other religions do now.

      If that was not true Scientology wouldn’t have many problems on this planet even when LRH was around. But it does have. Why is that?

      How come in the 21st century Man does not know who he really is? And how come nothing like that is ever taught in any University: the search for Man’s soul. You get all kinds of sciences there but you don’t get a similar science to Scientology. Why is that?

      Honestly, I am still looking to find the wrongness and the rightness in many comments here and in Michael Moore’s article. I don’t see it. We are all saying the same thing, that Scientology needs to advance. Some believe it should advance in a different way than others do. That does not make any difference. Scientology is very specific, called Standard Tech and is a tool and it’s not an end in itself. I personally got to be more free from Scientology and Scientology itself through Scientology. That’s a very good tool then. I am very careful with those who use it and try to give it to people one way or another.

      This IS inclusion, otherwise we are talking about sheer exclusion, like we know where, why and by who.

  90. “I have long since transcended PTSness to OSA and David Miscavige…” Marty is that a form of forgiveness? My answer to both questions are yes and yes. ARC Bill Dupree

  91. Where fundamentalism can lead.

    I thought I’d been ambiguous when I said IFA /APIS accepts COS quals. As far as I know

    they accept quals from those they approve of. However Tatiana’s post above says only those trained in COS could arrend a class VIII conference. This was it seems run by IFA’s

    qual sec Chris Black. This is not a good way to upgrade anyone’s skills if they wanted or needed upgrading.

    They did not accept Pat’s quals. Pat has in her place a course room and course sup

    and access to materials. Denying this as usefull is in effect saying the FZ may as well lie down and die. Chastizing her for delivering tech is the opposite of keeping scientology working.

    They were very happy to indulge with zealous piety knocking and hammering

    with KSW 7 8 9 10, but were not able to do KSW 4. ” Teaching correctly the correct technology” in Pats case.

    Basically their solution to their fundamentalism was to not do Scn. Thats the opposite of keeping Scn working.

    Pat and Ray on the other hand has been over the years the most productive US

    auditing and teaching team. I have been using there successes for 7 years or so to promote the FZ and IFA whose website I included on every post.

    LRH said “Get the show on the road”. Pat has been doing that.

    He also said something along the lines “get out quantity and then upgrade quality”

    Pat has been doing that.

    Some quotes from SUPERIOR SERVICE IMAGE HCOPL 10 DEC 1969

    ” It is an old maxim IF AUDITING IS OCURRING IN THE FILD ORGS WILL BOOM”

    Pat has been doing that.

    ” It is no real concern of ours to try and hold the field versions standard. They mess

    up pcs and students. They always will. A militant org attitude to keep the FIELD

    straight is silly”

    ” The REAL org action is to put it out that IN AN ORG WE USE AND TEACH

    HIGH-GRADE STANDARD TECH IN DIANETICS AND SCIENTOLOGY.

    IFA /APIS did not do that. perhaps they do now, I’m no longer a member. They are big on the militant attitude however.

    This fundamentalism has cut comm lines. Pat is no longer it seems associated with APIS, at least she is not listed as an auditor. I’m no longer promoting IFA APIS. I was their main promoter for 7 years or so. There may have been other comm lines cut.

    One of the bigger problems of the FZ is people saying ” I’m more standard than you”

    and hearing the same in reply. And fighting. Years ago my forum was destroyed by this

    sort of thing.

    LRH said ” All auditors are my friends.” We should try and emulate that.

    • Fundamentalism.

      I went down to the local org and attended a briefing by OSA on the state of the planet. Others of similar ilk joined in with “green-vols-up-the-ass-and-gleam-in-eye” pronunciations. We are the only ones, was the constant refrain.

      I went back to work. Doing a version of “managing by walking about” I came upon a distressed staff member who took me aside to whisper a truth in mine ear.

      “I am very worried about you.” He said.
      “I am sorry to hear that, tell me why”.
      “You are not a believer”.

      He is a staunch Christian, Evangelist, fundamentalist. All those who do not follow his version of Christianity are doomed. Catholics, Jews, everyone other than his group.

      He told me he prays for me each night.

      I thanked him.

      I am surrounded by these guys.

      I the read the article Marty posted by Mr Moore.

      No ways.

      I picked up Threat Vector by Tom Clancy and lost myself in REAL intrigue.

      Greenonwhite

    • Interesting data Terril.

      Sad if true.

  92. theosismanides

    Thanks Terril. I will attempt to say that in the old days there used to be some Qual. I see the importance of this as an urgent matter for Scientologists. There is no Fundamentalist Scientology. One can make it as good as it is. The notion of Qual is not a bad thing and it is evident that it is lacking.

    This was originally my idea of Admin. And still is. You cannot just leave people making up small groups and not communicating to each other. Even more, some coordination and correction should exist for them. This is how I see Admin coming in. We are not talking about leaders, we are talking about Administrators.

    I bet I could be a good Administrator even though I am not a classified auditor. Anyone could if they let the auditors do their job and see if results are gotten. And if not, smoothen out the situation. Hat not Hit. To command is to serve. In my opinion Administrators are needed in the field. Not to run orgs which cannot be done right now. But to calm down the HE&R (isn’t that the purpose of PR) and to bring auditors together and their results so they can get a sense of pride. A group is not a bad thing. It has been made to look very bad by some folk, we know who. I take the words of LRH seriously as to KSW as I had a hell lot of wins. It looks like some others didn’t get that many. It is obvious sometimes as “Reasonableness” is part of this culture whereas LRH was unreasonable. I know now why. I bet you that the fact that OTs are not making it, has to do with MUs basically. They have not duplicated Scientology, much less the Fundamentals of it. If they cannot grant beingness, I don’t care how OT their certs say they are, they aren’t.

    Terril, you have been in the Freezone for a long time now. You have seen enough. I agree with your viewpoint but even APIS could be corrected if provenly a need for correction was there. If they didn’t want to be corrected, that would be another story.

    We are NOT here to create another church. I can agree on that with Marty having the viewpoint of integration. And it can be done. However, there are parts of the Tech that are not used at all and mainly the Admin tech.

    Who has such authority? And I use the word Authority meaning: Power or influence resulting from knowledge, prestige etc. Comes from Author < Auctor, Enlarger, <Augere to Increase… Webster's New World College Dictionary, Def. # 3

    "Authority" has come down to become: the power or right to give commands, enforce obedience, take action, or make final decisions.
    Webster's New World College Dictionary, Def. # 1

    So, to me it's MUs. You read "authority" and you go on thinking about enforcement and commands. That's an MU. Authority primarily comes from the word Author as I explained so anything that has to do with authority has to do with Creation by a person who is proficient in that field.

    Admin Tech is the missing element if we all wanna say we are doing some kind of Scientology. But Admin done by an authority, not Miscavige who made people hate Admin Tech so as to split us up.

  93. Forgive me, off-topic but of great importance.

    Kate Bornstein has lung cancer and needs our help.

    From Tory Ortega:
    http://tonyortega.org/2013/03/20/scientology-ordered-to-turn-over-confidential-files-in-forced-abortion-lawsuit/

    “KATE BORNSTEIN IS KICKING CANCER’S ASS, BUT COULD USE A HAND

    Last year, we were very pleased to write a Voice cover story about Kate Bornstein, one of New York’s most original performance artists, a well-known gender activist, and a former first mate for L. Ron Hubbard on the yacht Apollo (back when Kate was Al Bornstein).

    What pleases us less is the fight that Kate has been engaged in against lung cancer. She was diagnosed in August, and after a successful surgery, the disease rallied and is giving her more trouble. The good news, however, is that her doctors tell her that it’s curable, and she’s fighting hard with a regimen of chemotherapy and diet.

    In the meantime, she could use a little help. So today, she’s starting a GoFundMe site where we can all donate a little to help her out. As soon as we have the URL on that site, we’ll post it here. And please, if you haven’t yet read Kate’s amazing memoir, A Queer and Pleasant Danger, do yourself a big favor and buy a copy now.

    And here’s the link to her fundraising site. Please go there!”

    Kate’s Go Fund Me Page – Help Kate Bornstein Stay Alive
    http://www.gofundme.com/2cxb6w

    Amazon link to A Queer and Pleasant Danger (Amazon):
    http://www.amazon.com/Queer-Pleasant-Danger-Memoir/dp/0807001651/

    Barnes and Noble link to A Queer and Pleasant Danger (Barnes and Noble):
    http://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/a-queer-and-pleasant-danger-kate-bornstein/1110784336

  94. Where ‘Scientology’ was designed to bring out the best in us, unfortunately, it seems to bring out the worst in few some.

    Enjoy this song while I sort this out:

  95. I would not call it a “Scientology regression” but Scn misunderstanding and misapplication.
    This is how I perceive the whole thing.
    1) There is THE ORIGINAL body of knowledge, that comes with a tool to know it (an instruction of know-how-to-know technique) in a form of uncodified into the words knowledge, say, “flowing around in a theta universe”. Does not matter where, really.
    2) There are some people for a particular reason more perceptive to the “flowing in the theta universe” data then others. Say, they deserved that.
    3) Hubbard (not only him) was one of them and he duplicated to the best of his ability whatever he could perceive from the “flowing” data, codified it, starting with an instruction, into words, put it together with written data he had learned from the other writers, and presented the findings under the name of Dianetics/Scientology, saying he was a source, (not transmitter).
    4) Some people used the tool and arrived to the data, I suppose. Some could not gain the state of “deserving the access”. So Hubbard started transmitting the data and presenting his understanding of it in the form of “knowledge about life” codified into words for people to read and to listen to.
    5) People who did not have the access to the source – “the theta universe with the data floating around” cold not compare the quality of the Hubbard’s copy or his version or his understanding of The Original, with their own because of too little or no perception and so understanding of the Original, so they took Hubbard’s version as an original and made their own copy of his copy – that would be auditors trained by Hubbard. The church made few times copies of the copies of the copy of the materials written by Hubbard of his first copy of The Original, to the very grim end copy, which is been now copied – duplicated to the best of their abilities – by new people who chose to study Scientology.

    The conclusion: I wouldn’t worry so much about the fate of the copies of the copies, starting with “original” first copy made by Hubbard. I wouldn’t worry so much about people fighting over that copies of the copies ether.

    Instead I’d advise to concentrate on using whatever tool you can grab to gain a state of awareness where you’ll deserve and become able to perceive and recognize THE ORIGINAL, then enjoy and share, if you wish, your own “handmade” copy of the truth.

    • I am so sorry for my English! When I reread my postings, I don’t know what to do – to cry or to laugh! You reading them have to be quite OT to understand what I had in mind in this very approximate outline. Good luck! :) And thank you, those who managed to make it trough the post, for your kind attention!!

      • Wow, Tatiana! What a post!
        Your English works, but you don’t need English. :-)
        I “grok” * you in fullness – loud and clear!

        “grok” * – a Robert Heinlein term meaning, roughly, full conceptual understanding.

    • There are so many scales in Scientology that there is a table book of scales. Starting with the CDEI scale, Tone Scale, Awareness scale, etc.

      I don’t consider someone sliding back down to the bottom of one of these scales regression either.

      Sometimes it’s just a new beginning or a second chance ,for another piece from somebodies wardrobe of identities.

      If the last wardrobe piece wasn’t getting the lot through many doors, bring our a fresh one! Or one that was working.

      Do you think those fundamentalists would be dragging out those identities if something fresh had been working out better for them?

      Fundamentalists from every religion, lean on push up bras.

  96. To answer your questions, Marty, yes and yes. I get more tolerant and humble all the time. Must say that I have been integrating for some time, even before officially resigning. After all, Scientology is where I learned “what is true for you is true for you.” Integrating activities have included activity in the political party of my choice and integrating Scn practices with Judaism, which, for me, fills a number of voids I felt in Scn. There are a lot of people of good will out there to align with.

  97. When I came out of the SO I wrote an article for Vanity Fair
    in response to the question of what the difference is between
    the youth of today (2005) compared to the youth of the 60′s
    - 70′s. Well my writing sounded so much like Mr Moore’s, even
    though I went a bit more extreme about the psychs and their
    influence on the society.
    Fortunately since then I feel I have grown and not in a small
    part because of this blog.

    • Funny! About 25 years ago I used to write like Ron – with Ron’s voice and some of his style. Not necessarily bad as an evolutionary thing, because I could not write at all before. But, I was able to discard Ron’s voice and find my own, and it started when I reevaluated what I was doing and writing about.

  98. Well I’m rather new to this whole “independent Scientologist” phenomenon, in fact I didn’t even know there was such a thing till a couple of months ago. I’ve studied enough of religion, philosophy and human history to realize that just because you have a group of individuals that have some common ground doesn’t necessarily mean they are going to approach things the same way or agree upon everything. In so far as Scientology goes I feel it better to disagree but remain open minded to the ideas of others than to subject oneself and others to blind faith or to be dogmatic to the extent as to surrender one’s own sense of logic, morals and ethics and such.

    I am only just becoming familiar with the various people in this “indie” scene but I will say that I didn’t read as much into Michael Moore’s blog post as Mr. Rathbun and others have. I reread that blog and the wording and I guess perhaps there are certain aspects of the blog post that one can construed in certain ways as to find disagreeable and such but I don’t see the intent behind the blog as being to cause harm. He stated an opinion and yes it did appear to be a response of sorts to Mr. Rathbun and his book but hey it’s an opinion and discussion is good is it not?

    I think LRH brought forth an applicable technology of mind, body, soul betterment. The whole idea, from my understanding of LRH’s intentions, was to create a workable solution to humankind’s problems that had a well mapped out path to which one could follow and produced a quantifiable positive result. If it works and is of value, if it works better than any other method before it, then good. But of course that is not to invalidate the actual achievements and betterment received by practices outside of LRH tech and Dianetics and Scientology. I mean, you can’t ignore the fact that buddhism spoke of the value of “being in the moment” centuries before LRH spoke of the same. Or that if there is value in LRH’s TR course that then value can also be derived, similarly, from buddhist meditation (whether to a lesser or larger extent is completely subjective to the individual who has applied both processes). I betcha Thich Nhat Hanh would be quite adept at keeping his TRs in.

    But anyways, Mr. Rathbun I await your book in the mail and appreciate your blog as I do other constructive blogs from those who left the Church but still wish to pursue and promote LRH tech. I took Mr. Moore’s blog post as merely a desire to validate LRH tech and to position focus on the positive value of Dianetics and Scientology. But as I mentioned, I’m still new to this dynamic and this is just my own present opinion.

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