Freedumb Mag

Here is the Freedumb crew harassing Mike and his business associates yesterday:

Today Leblow and four goons in baby blue anti-Marty t-shirts and head cameras were chased out of my neighborhood by the neighbors,  then chased away from Monique’s former place of employment by her friends and erstwhile co-workers.

While Miscavige has jacked the daily PI budget on us to close to twenty thousand a day, his minions are apparently fixin’ to renege on yet another of his big shot words; namely, a promise to pay the City of Clearwater fines for delaying his SP building for a decade:

http://www.tampabay.com/news/scientology/will-clearwater-press-scientology-to-pay-450000-fine-in-full/1174576

Funny how the man who told them “money is not an issue”, but is now begging for mercy, is spending parishioner donations like a cocaine addled banana republic dictator.

179 responses to “Freedumb Mag

  1. Tony DePhillips

    Great handling Mike.
    This guy can’t get a real job so he has to be miss cabbages flunky. He needs his little thugs to try to cover his scrawny ass.
    While at the same time Marty’s neighbors are chasing the bots out of town!! Hillarious!!
    Then miss cabbage is going to send out more bots with cup in hand to beg mercy for the fines they chocked up, all the time blowing cash left and right chasing around good people and creating the worst PR for Scientology in it’s history.
    LRH must be shaking his head about now….

    • Tony,

      A few observations:

      1. I have asked Minerva/Bozo for his card about 10 times now. He could have had one printed, to at least give him some pretense of being a respectable journalist, but I guess that isnt in the budget (and no shoes or suits either).

      2. Has anyone EVER seen a “reporter” in the US with a bodyguard? What’s he worried about? I don’t have a bodyguard, but he does? I am not out stalking them? How weird is that? I guess its supposed to be for further “intimidation”? Or maybe they figure if Bozo asks enough insulting/inane/incomprehensible questions someone will launch themselves at him? Perhaps that is the only purpose of this exercise?

      3. Now to the really interesting thing. Pat Harney is quoted in the St Pete Times saying that it would be “inappropriate” to say how much the Super Power building cost because “it was parishioner’s money.” Obviously they are worried about this. If they say it cost $150+ million a lot of people are going to start asking what the hell all that money was spent on (only to discover if the truth ever actually came out that huge amounts were wasted redoing and redoing and redoing things, hiring and firing architects and builders at the whim of Dear Leader — and I mean beaucoup bucks). BUT, if they give an acceptable truth about how much was spent people will wonder “Why all the regging for the last 5 years to collect $50+ million that was not spent on the building?” They are caught on the horns of a dilemma. Yet Pat Harney said something incredibly true — this is PARISHIONERS DONATIONS and that is the reason THEY should know what it has been spent on! It’s amazing how this sort of line gets thrown out without thought (probably came right out of Dear Loser’s dictaphone) and in itself it is SO telling.

      Perhaps someone in the City of Clearwater is going to wake up to the fact that the “Church” is spending about 10 times their daily $250 fine on hiring retired WWF wrestlers, rejects from the circus, out of work actors and PIs to try and keep their secrets from seeing the light of day.

      As I said yesterday — these idiots do not realize who’s toes they have been treading on as they cut a swath of destruction through Pinellas County. They blunder into situations without a clue. They don’t know who are at the meetings they are hanging around outside of, or who those people are connected to. I just hope they keep it up as they are doing a wonderful job. And while they are being directed by Dear Loser, soon he is going to start wailing about the “wonderful PR’ he personally created with the City of Clearwater (its referenced in the article that he met with the Mayor and City Manager personally) has been “destroyed.” And once again, it will all be everyone else’s fault.

      Miscavige, you are a fool.

      • Tony DePhillips

        Always love your analysis Mike.
        1. Is this bozo in the Sea Org?
        2. Never seen a reporter with a body gaurd and I do think that is proof they are trying to intimidate. Either that or “position” you as “dangerous”. You are dangerous to them just because you are so much smarter and cleaner than they are.
        3.GREAT point on the fact that they are WASTING way more money than the fines they are trying to weazel out of. It would be great if the board that will adjudicate whether or not they be let off the hook could be info’d about his so they can make them pay as they should to help the community.
        Transparency of finances?? That would be awesome!! We know that won’t happen unless really pushed by the kool aides and that seems unlikely.

        As to your last paragraph, I would LOVE to know whose toes they have been treading on! But I’m sure we will find out in due time…

        Peace to you Marty and Mike and all the other harrassed good people fighting this just cause.

        Really looking forward to the big July 4th bash. They will have to send an army of goons in on us, now THAT sounds real fun. The key stone cops lost in Texas…

      • Great analysis Mike.

        Steve’s new blog entry has something which is very interesting about these Squirrel busters: http://www.scientology-cult.com/messengers-of-hate.html

        Mainly to get what these bozos are doing in Florida and Texas to be considered as “hate crimes” which is what they are doing, and filing police reports of such similar to those done in LA. That would be fuel for the Feds investigations.

      • martyrathbun09

        Ditto on the effects they are creating in Texas.

      • Dear Mike,

        Damned good video. I just acquired a video camera with all the bells and whistles, broadcast quality.

        Even though the word “squirrel” was an LRH word, nowhere does LRH dictate forming a posse to descend on private homes add the word BUSTERS and BUSTING as in

        Squirrel Busters.

        Interestingly enough, it was Law Enforcement that saw this as a HATE EPITHET from Radical Taliban Scientology to the Independent Scientologists.

        John Allender the whacko, is am emissary and messenger to Miscavige !
        It is worth another look …..

        • Karen honey, doesn’t he look like an absolute WHACKO in his audio/video outfit?
          {LOL}. Oh sweetheart, my sides are splitting from laughing.

          It is hard to tell if he is a “physician” from the way the camera is situated on top of his head or if he just got lost somewhere along the way.

          Kudo’s to you honey!

    • No, he’ll rotate in his grave so fast that if you’d connect a generator to it you could power half of LA :>

    • You tell them Tony !

  2. One counter to the Church’s claim there is such rapid expansion of Scientology is the fact that so much effort is being made to silence the Independent movement. If the so-called ‘explosive growth’ was true, the Independent movement would die of itself, crushed by the overwhelming juggernaut of the Church. We would just be gnats on their windshield. Why would anyone in the Church care about us, if such expansion were true?

    Whenever you see Marty or Mike etc., being stalked and harassed, when you see fake websites being used to mock and belittle some of the more prominent Independent posters, then you know we are worrying the Church because what we speak is true. There is no ‘explosive growth’ in the Church, and we are a dangerous voice. If the Church can’t Flourish and Prosper, apparently they want to make sure nobody else does too. The antidote to this nonsense: each of us can Flourish and Prosper and spread our theta and influence to those around us, and thus help create better conditions. And that, I believe, is being a Scientologist.

    Tom Price
    LA

    • martyrathbun09

      Gnats on the windshield – right. That is what they are becoming.

    • Tony DePhillips

      Great points Tom.

      You know one thing I realized is, what self respecting church or ANYONE sane would go around BADGERING people like this? This you would expect from a nut or a high school bully or criminal.
      If you were really the sane and rational and peace loving philosphy and religion they claim to be then I would think they would attempt some REAL COMMUNICATION. But they cannot confront the answers they would get. It really boils down to this: THEY CANNOT CONFRONT THE TRUTH. so they have to use force to try to overwhelm the truth tellers.
      THEY ARE GOING TO LOSE.

      • Tony said: “You know one thing I realized is, what self respecting church or ANYONE sane would go around BADGERING people like this? This you would expect from a nut or a high school bully or criminal”.

        Nut/high school bully/criminal = Miscavige. This is not a SELF-RESPECTING Church. Miscavige chooses to have the Church represented by nut/high school bully/criminal looking people because maybe he is proud of being that himself????? He chooses people in his own image?

        Church of Scientology is not Scientology.
        David Miscavige is not L. Ron Hubbard.
        David Miscavige has no legal rights to tell anybody anything.

    • “If the Church can’t Flourish and Prosper, apparently they want to make sure nobody else does too. The antidote to this nonsense: each of us can Flourish and Prosper and spread our theta and influence to those around us, and thus help create better conditions. And that, I believe, is being a Scientologist.”

      Could not agree more – well stated. Thanks!

      Vic Krohn

  3. These Freedom Mag guys are such a bunch of goofs … wanna be investigators.

    What an embarrassment to what was once a fairly credible magazine.

    • Actually, I now begin to wonder whether they were ever credible … these guys have been bought.

      • Freedumb Magazine’s first priority has always been to be a propaganda organ for the CoS. It’s never been recognized outside of the CoS confines as anything but a cult smear sheet. Now maybe years ago there were actually a few stories here and there that had some merit beyond black propaganda, but that was merely a coincidence and small potatoes in the overall goal.

  4. What else is new?

    Just to add, these church people seem to think they have everything under control but they sure bring up some strange topics. Enough to make one wonder what kind of information are they really looking for?

    The people next door to me, their house was forclosed. Does this mean they are terrorists?

    The guy across the street and his girlfriend sit on their porch every day and smoke marijuana every day. Does this mean it is any of my business?

    The man that owns the most succesful grocery store in town here is married to a girl 18 years younger than him! Does this mean they are perverts or something?

    I think the answer to all those questions is no, so why is it their business for {these church people taunting Mike Rinder} what he does with his time and money, him and his 2D if their not bothering anybody?

    This could be another reason why these members of the church have a difficult time talking to anyone anywhere they go. I am not sure the LRH technical term for it, but it has something to do with people that talk “outside of true reality”.

  5. I am sure you have considered this, but perhaps the neighbors who are chasing DM’s monkeys away should band together and seek a restraining order against the Church and anyone affiliated with them or working for them in whatever capacity from entering that street and disturbing the peace. Such behaviour can impact property values and neighborhood appeal and is equivilant to gang behavior impact on neighborhoods.

    That two-bit “reporter” reminds me of an old time Las Vegas lounge lizzard who can’t afford a bus ticket home. What a complete dumbass. I love the attempt at intimidation by having a big hire-a-thug along.

    And, Mike, it made my day to see you slam the door on the lounge lizzard. It’s a shame that there is nothing of any magnitude on that guy that could get caught in the door…. hahahahah!!!

  6. LOL! ROFL! sell it to the networks … what a kickin reality show!!

    Mike Rinder the shot of the shoes was great, and this was the best ever —>
    “Where have you ever reported anything…” OMG ROFL “Have you actually ever reported anythng?” LOLOLOL!!
    and “Do you want come in here?”

    LOL ★★★ Mike you are a star!★★★

  7. CALL THE POLICE when you get harassed. The time should soon come when these same criminals are being followed and arrested. You have to have seen the ridiculous videos of people robotically repeating, “What are your crimes?” mostly shot by a man named Mark Bunker. Like him or not, he exposed the idiocy of such “handlings”. The money spent on air fare, on rooms, meals, etc. in addition to P.I. pay has to be enormous. How many people and in what cities are these things going on? What is the FBI doing to stop these interstate crimes? The goons are making fools of themselves. Thank you for exposing this to the world to see. Leblow Job is which one of the smelly creatures? I’m with Michael Fairman on this. Call the cops and file charges. TWTH says something about not doing anything illegal. Hypocrisy incarnate! So, Leblow Job, “How did you justify that? How else did you justify that?” Mike, you are super strong to not slam that piece of shit’s head in the door of your vehicle. The consequences obviously would not “justify” the action but the near sadistic revenge would be glorious, to say the least. Still, it is up to law enforcement to handle this stuff; that’s what they get paid for.

  8. Lets be sure the SP times and the others concerned are familiar with “SENIOR POLICY”(re if there was a promise to pay the fines.)

  9. Hey the Radical Scientologists are really fleecing and bamboozling people and the poor city of Clearwater. How long have they been “collecting donations” on that Super Power building?

    Today it’s news that Kirstie Alley owes the city $45,000K of delinquent back taxes — that she claims is an “oversight” and “she never got the bill.”
    http://www.torontosun.com/2011/06/08/alley-faces-foreclosure-on-home

    Oh yeah that video is hilarious. That weenie little reporter should get a gig as a comedian! He’d be great in a sit com. I am still LOL, Mike Rinder is brilliant in this.

  10. He referred to Mike’s ‘ex wife?’ Has the divorce finally gone through?

  11. Mike;

    I wonder if the appearance of a ‘reporter’ from the ‘Freedom Mag’ is a recognition by CofS lawyers that using the usual wing-dings to harrass may cause a legal flap. Using a ‘reporter’ may be a solution.

    Just wondering …

    • bobo — I dont think there is any recognition of anything.

      They probably believe it gives them a better “PR” cover story (it doesnt, everyone who sees them thinks they are evil cretins).

      There’s no sense to anything they do. This was no doubt an order from Dear Loser at one point “Fuck the St Pete Times, if they want to write stories about us then we will write stories about them.” Someone then told him how incredibly intelligent and effective that handling was “Sir, you think of everything, that was brilliant and it TOTALLY shut the St Pete Times up” and now it has been exported for broad use. The Golden Age of Media Handling courtesy of Dear Loser.

      No, there’s no recognition. They are incapable of seeing anything through the eyes of any viewpoint other than their own. To them, they are doing what everyone else would do. To the rest of the world, they are aghast at the crass, vulgar, outrageousness of them.

      • Hi Mike;

        It is hard to imagine anyone so out of touch with reality. How is it possible? How could it have come to be? Overts I guess…

        Their individuation has always left me dumbstruck. They think they live and function in the real world, not realizing their ‘world’ is just a bubble.

        Bubbles pop.

      • was this guy involved with the church or is a SO member while you were in? Or is he the best they have for your replacement? Tommy Davis hasn’t been seen or heard from in months!

        • No, he wasn’t in the SO or on staff anywhere that I know of. Rumor is that they picked him up when Barnum and Baileys circus went through Riverside.

          • Haha!!!🙂

          • Mike,

            The guy has the beingness of a sewer rat, a blind one at that.
            The rumor I heard is that he was the result of a biological experiment gone wrong. Something about splicing rat’s DNA with worm’s DNA.

      • Mike – it appears it’s actually even worse than that. Incredibly, I have discovered from reliable friendly sources in LA area that:

        + OSA considers the harassment activities in LA a huge “win”.

        + People who are helping are getting awards towards their OT levels, and any help given will also be repaid by helping smooth the way through the ethics / eligibility lines.

        + Apparently one person who has allegedly been giving feedback on Indies was finally given eligibility OK. Allender has apparently been awarded something as well – not sure what exactly. (Free spins in the Superpower Implant Station gyroscope?)

        This is surely about as “reverse” in reverse Scientology as it gets; it seems the fastest way up DM’s squirrel Bridge now is to become an OSA spy or harassment officer! Commit any amount of illegal and/or suppressive acts you want – as long as it titillates Dear Leader and satisfies his appetite for confrontation. ‘Course, the net result is an even faster implosion of the cult. Also discovered recently that at least 2 MV attendees this year will, let’s say, not exactly be on the same page as DM. It’s going to get harder and harder to know who to trust, eh Dave….My advice? Sec Check the lot of them on entry, or even better on the plane en-route; have a wall of RTC execs yelling “What are your crimes?” concurrently. That should put them all in the right mood.

        • Martin — no big surprises here, though certainly interesting to get confirmation.

          Of course they tell everyone that what they are doing is a big win. They can’t keep their activites secret, so they tell the sheeple how wonderful it is. It’s like the events “massive international expansion” and everyone parrots it… But there is also some delusion. I met with someone recently who remains under the radar but absolutely sickened by what is going on in the Vampire Empire. That person started having their eyes opened because OSA gave them a copy of Freedom and told them to read it to help handle others in the community! They were so dumbstruck by what they read, they went to the SP Times website and its all downhill from there.

          These people are like performing seals — throw them some stinky fish and they bark and clap their hands.

          • Yeh, pretty much my experience, and that of many others. In my case Phil Harbour (DSA AOSH) gave a Freedom to read to “prove” the abuse was all lies. There on pages 50 – 52 it outlines an abusive culture at the Int base all under the stewardship over by Dear Leader himself. The buck stops with the leader in ANY organisation. I can only conclude that OSA are gambling a significant proportion are either so brainwashed that they not-is that bit, or else they don’t read it (or can’t read).

            • Scott Campbell

              “Axiom 38 1. Stupidity is the unknownness of consideration.

              2. Mechanical definition: Stupidity is the unknownness of time, place, form and event.

              1. Truth is the exact consideration.

              2. Truth is the exact time, place, form and event.

              Thus we see that failure to discover truth brings about stupidity.

              Thus we see that the discovery of truth would bring about an as-isness by actual experiment.

              Thus we see that an ultimate truth would have no time, place, form or event.

              Thus, then, we perceive that we can achieve a persistence only when we mask a truth.

              Lying is an alteration of time, place, event or form.

              Lying becomes alter-isness, becomes stupidity.

              (The blackness of cases is an accumulation of the case’s own or another’s lies.)

              Anything which persists must avoid as-isness. Thus, anything, to persist, must contain a lie.” — L. Ron Hubbard

        • Yes, ain’t it great to get free services? Here, we’ve awarded you OT IV. He arrives and just like the rest of us, finds out he’s C/S’d for a lot of expensive FPRD, sec-checking, etc., before he can even start the thing he actually wants. An award of free sh*t is just more sh*t. ROFL (Not that these guys will ever wake up to any of these facts. They will still be slobbering after the carrots held in front of their noses on sticks, long after any real donkeys are dead and gone.)

  12. LOL, Mike – this”handling” of you and Marty just gets funnier by the day. What makes it even better is that the cancerous gnome Himself probably dreams up these ideas and sends his painfully detailed and self-contradictory orders down to his flunkies then watches this blog to see what “effect” He’s had.

    And then of course blames everybody else for the failure of His MOs.

    FreeDumb mag just gets dumber and dumber.

    Hi, Lil Davey – tick, tock.

    • Scooter — you are right. Every “handling” that involves Marty or me is personally directed and monitores minute by minute by Dear Loser himself.

      • Mike-On the micromanaging of the two of you-You should probably start looking for any ear pieces that these idiots are wearing-dm could resort to talking them through the “handling”

        • Good call Ingrid.

          They are not too far from that now — they get their instructions drilled in and then they get wound up and sent out like Energizer bunnies, repeating the same drilled in words over and over.

    • Tony DePhillips

      These guys look uptone compared to Labowe and the nut from FreeDumb.

  13. You know, since it is a so-called “Freedom” mag “reporter” – I am thinking the strat is to put a new edition together about how “bad” we all are, ala the 2009 Miscavige “What a great guy” edition. I read reports where people are given the 2009 Freedom mag article as a “handling” for so-called “black PR” and I suppose maybe they are working on a current number.

    Regardless, this is silly. Loved the shot of the shoes!

    • They can be held accountable, if they publish libelous statements in Freedumb, methinks.

    • Tony DePhillips

      GH,
      If they did that it would be another HUGE footbullet. If Scientologists would see many well known Scientologists working together they would want to know what was going on.

      • That is true Tony. Weren’t Amy, Marty and Mike the stars of one of the earlier editions? Now they are adding Karen and Michael and who knows who else – it is starting to look like a party. Which it is!

    • That article was part of what convinced me of the truth, seeing page after page of nothing but what an amazing guy DM was! Blech!

  14. It’s time for restraining orders and injuctions fellows.

    I also suggest a simple OT power action – nose bleed on each goon.

    • I really appreciate that sentiment.

      Unfortunately, “giving a nose bleed to the goons” is exactly what the oppressor WANTS Mike and Marty to do. Then, the oppressor can say, “You see, I was right all along. Rathbun is a violent criminal. Do you believe me now that I did not do the beatings at the base?”

      The DM group is so motivator hungry that they motivate off of mere JOKES about violence. When some Anonymous members, in a sort of junior high school fantasy, talked about donning Ninga outfits and assaulting the Orgs, Tommy Davis and other DM reps went crazy about the “terrorists” that were threatening the Orgs. And, you know, they got some mileage out of it. Because, saying you were “just joking” often does not fly with police and prosecutors (trying joking with a TSA agent about having a bomb).

      Giving the oppressor the motivator he is seeking gives him a win(!).

      James

  15. Scott Campbell

    Mike,

    Who is this douchebag? Oh my god. This dude is straight out of a bad aluminum siding salesman nightmare. Only he failed at that so the only work he could get was being a toady for Miscavige.

    Evidently Miscavige is so dirty that he can only attract old leftover abandoned Soviet sleeper agents who have a failed purpose on never having carried out their evil mission orders. That’s the mock up I get from this guy. Completely unsavory.

    And what is this lame attempt to imply that you smoke marijuana? Obviously a prelude to some kind of frame-up job. These cats are nothing more than rank amateurs desperately trying to remain relevant.

    The only thing I can say about the CW thing is: Woe betide the poor parishioners who are still on lines when the StupidPower implant station fires up and starts locking the aforementioned suckers into their bodies.

  16. This sort of game is usually a game of TRs.

    Not having anything legitimate on persons such as Mike or Marty, an SP intuitively knows what he has to do. They know what they have to do, because it is his or her stock in trade – they have usually been doing it for centuries. And, it almost always works, so they keep on doing it.

    They run constant enturbulative actions in on the target. The SP knows that sooner or later (in the absence of the application of Tech), the target will go PTS.

    When the target goes PTS, the target will make a mistake or mistakes. Like hit one of the enturbulators, slam a door on an enturbulator’s hand, etc..

    Like, why does an enturbulator “get in the face” of a target? Because the enturbulator WANTS the target to push them away. Then, the SP makes sure that that reaction (the strike, push, etc.) is recorded. Then the SP has the crime publicized, “proving that what the SP has been saying all along is true – the target is a criminal.” Omitted is that the only reason the target committed a criminal act is that they were goaded into it. The thing is, goaded or not, the SP wins, because the act is still criminal (the goading may reduce the sentence, or result in a lesser charge, but the reaction was still criminal).

    The above is why groups involved in non-violent warfare known that drilling is so important. In the 1960’s, the Southern Christian Leadership Conference drilled and drilled those who were to participate in sit-ins, to flatten the normal buttons we have – the buttons that say it is unmanly not to defend yourself, you are (supposedly) a wimp if you do not “defend your honor,” etc.

    That is what the enturbulator and his or her SP controller wants. They WANT the target to “stand up and not take it any more.” So, if drilling did not handle it, the SCLC asked those who could not flatten their buttons to not participate in the sit-ins.

    But, what if the oppressor BEATS the targets. Shouldn’t one defend one’s self? Normally, in life, yes. But, here, you have to ask an LRH question, “What game are we playing? What PRODUCT are we looking for?” Well, actually, if you are the SCLC, you WANT to get beaten. You record that on film, publicize it, and YOU won in that confrontation.

    It’s a game of TRs. Whoever can keep their TRs in, ignoring the normal Human Emotion and Reaction that says one has to be manly, etc., wins.

    This was the Tech that beat the long-established, fully-in-power, repressive governments of the Jim Crow south. This is the Tech that freed the Indian people of a foreign colonialist. This is the Tech that in modern times freed Yugoslavia of the SP Milosevic (indicted for Crimes Against Humanity).

    Groups of small MEST resources beat groups that had vastly more money, had frikken armies, etc. They beat the oppressors because not because they finally got more MEST than the oppressor, but because they:

    – correctly identified the actual game they were in,
    -identified the technology appropriate to that game,
    -drilled the correct technology, then
    -strictly applied the correct technology.

    Sounds familiar,
    James

    “Identifying and applying the correct technology, we will prevail, despite any seeming “odds.”

    • Good points James.

    • Smart man, Mr. Lawson. Good post.
      JM

      • I appreciate the validation of my words. Jim and JM, I have really enjoyed what you have written, also.

        While my words may, hopefully, provide some insight, I think it is important to keep in mind that just as LRH did not just write, but also implemented his ideas, so Mike, Marty, Mosey, and others are not just sitting around bitching, but are out on the field of battle, ACTING.

        That takes confront. What I do just takes typing (!)

        James

        • Michael Fairman

          James

          Thank you for a superb analysis of passive resistance. Next time the goons come I’ll be wearing my hat.

          Michael

    • Hoorah Mr. Lawson! Very valuable and true info.

    • James-great post. here are some points from “The Art of War”:

      “There are 5 qualities which are dangerous in the character of a general;
      If reckless, he can be killed
      If cowardly,captured
      If quick tempered you can make a fool of him
      If he has too delicate a sense of humor you can calumniate him
      If he is of a compassionate nature you can harass him”

    • Watchful Navigator

      Great post James. Thanks for taking the time to tell the SCLC story. Very relevant here. I did not know they used drills to flatten buttons! Your post is filled with wisdom, and the data very needed and wanted.

      For all those who would like one very basic and succinct description of the game we are playing as LRH once put it:
      “If everybody were interested in doing things to perpetuate the universe of thought by conquest of the finite universe, we wouldn’t get into any trouble. There wouldn’t be any wars, and it would be a perfectly valid operation as long as we continued to do that.”

      LRH Lecture 9 November 1950 GROUP DIANETICS

      And finally from the same lecture (Davey and minions take note!):
      “…it is certainly true that he who imposes his will by force and not by reason upon a reasonable human being is going to have to take the consequences.”
      …”He(Hitler) had all of these tremendous gains to offer man. But he didn’t offer them to the whole of thought; he tried to keep them inside the group.”
      …”But the moment that some portion of thought conceives another portion of thought as a part of the material universe, a misidentification is made and you get chaos and disaster.”

    • Excellent post. Peaceful means is effective and will infuriate Mr. David Miscavige. That’s a two-fer, as far as I am concerned. Great analysis.

  17. One of the basic tenants of Scientology is that there is a Spiritual Being, a Mind and a Body. One of the first realizations Scientologists have is that “you are NOT your body, you are a Spritual Being and that you live forever.

    So I find it very funny that DM and his goons persist on trying to attack people because of how they physically look or that they are having a 2D with someone whose body age is younger.

    If you need any more evidence that DM is not a real Scientologist here it is.

    Who the hell cares? When my non Scientology friends see these “attacks” they laugh out loud! It’s Kindergarden stuff! Name calling and immature.

    Once again DM proves that he is in fact a High School drop out and has the emotional maturity of a spoiled child.

    I guess it makes sense since I understand he is so physically vain as to have his own tanning bed and I heard that’s not even his real hair, that he is a “Patron Meritorius” with the Hair Club for Men…..:)

    • Mark, that reminds me of a time in the officer’s lounge after Miscavige got a new hair-do.

      He had highlights throughout and he must have had a hot oil treatment too, because he told me that it was incredibly soft and I should FEEL his hair.

      I politely declined.

      He persisted, demanding “No, really – you can touch it!” while bending down, putting his head even closer to my hands.

      Again, I declined, saying “That’s okay, yeah – it looks nice and soft, Sir, I believe you.”

      It seemed weird to be asked by the head of the “church” to run my fingers through his hair-do! LOL — I was willing to take any repercussions for this non-compliance!

  18. I would be very surprised if this guy is a reporter at all. The guys who went to see Karen said they were doing a documentary. It seems like the latest trend is to mock up “legitimate” reasons to be there to hassle people. They can’t just hassle and be honest about it.

    • Ingrid — he says his name is Jim Lynch. Maybe someone can dig up some info on him….

      • On Jim Lynch:

        http://www.chicagoreader.com/Bleader/archives/2010/02/23/on-taking-the-scientologists-shilling

        The longest story in the package was written by Jim Lynch, yet another veteran journalist who took the Scientologists’ shilling. When I wrote about Lynch last October he was dissecting the Sun-Times Media Group for me as he’d gotten to know it as editor and publisher of its Naperville Sun from February 2006 to June 2008. When the STMG let him go, he moved to Florida and looked for work.

        Lynch, who lives in Boca Raton, Florida, spent two weeks in Clearwater reporting and writing the story in Freedom. He spent additional time working on a more complicated second piece — not yet published — about the Times’s relationship with the not-for-profit Poynter Institute that owns it.

        However, Lynch also says that when he took the job he made it clear to the Scientologists he wouldn’t stand for any proselytizing, and as long as they understood that he didn’t care what they believed. “I told them, I said, ‘Look, I happen to be a Catholic. My wife’s Jewish. My views on religion are if people want to worship at Mayan temples, fine with me. You guys, albeit a nontraditional religion, are a religion under the auspices of the U.S. Constitution.”

        As for that, he doesn’t want to say what the Scientologists paid him. But he asks, “Just don’t make me look like a shill for Scientology.” And he adds, “Say hello to my pals at the Sun-Times. You can stick that in there too, all right.”

        Lynch’s product: http://www.scribd.com/doc/24638903/Freedom-Magazine-December-January-2009

        Perhaps he’s switching to Video reporting as Freedumb as a media vehicle is totally ineffective and changed his considerations as a shill.

  19. Scientology expansion:
    🙂

  20. whats the CoS dont understand is the scio field is watching this blog and videos daily and by the time they release the freedumb mag,all the field will know its a hatchet story.
    it doesnt matter how good they edit it and put there slant on it,its gonna be too late.
    marty and mike have got social media on their side and can repel any attack…..but miscaviage can use social media also and can be effective…but he is to scared to use social media as he will be showcased in the mainstream media…so he has wedged himself out….the whole field in australia is watching these blogs and are now openly talking about them in the orgs….i know when my parents have a get together with a few scio families they barrack for mike…we just cant wait for the indapendence day picnic video to come on the blog….our family is having a barbeque with freinds just to watch it.
    go mike aussie aussie aussie…………!

  21. Dumb Leader just doesn’t get it. If he could have taken the least bit of responsibility for his actions, if he could have made ANY ethics change, things could have been so simple – but no.

    Dumb Leader only has one “solution”, one gear to operate in and that’s DENY, LIE, ATTACK. It doesn’t matter that its just making things worse for him, he just grinds that gear harder.

    First there were Knowledge Reports RTC and Miscavige himself. Then there were reports made to local newspapers. Then there reports made to national and international newspapers and magazines. Then there were national and international television and radio interviews. Five different books were published in one year and there are 5 more on their way. Then various governments around the world opened their own investigations. Last week one of Dumb Leaders main staff, Jan Eastgate who is the International head of CCHR (Citizens Commission on Human Rights) was arrested for allegedly obstructing justice and covering up for a child molester.

    The gradients are quickly increasing and the heat is being turned up. Dumb Leader goes further into hiding while sending out waves of flying monkeys to DENY, LIE, ATTACK.

    Dumb Leader is quickly becoming known to the general public as a pathetic, criminal cult leader. He’s become a joke for late night talk shows. He is becoming what Jim Jones and Charles Manson were to an earlier generation.

    What does Dumb Leader do? He acts more and more insane. He organizes and funds hate crimes. He pays thugs to break the law. He surrounds himself with more and more losers who carry with them a huge potential liability.

    Dumb Leader can’t help himself. It’s predictable that he will grind away until he goes the way of earlier sociopath cult leaders. He’s fixated on hate and destructive actions like a drug addict is to crack cocaine.

    It’s both sad and pathetic to watch both him and the dupes he uses.

    • Spot on

    • Tony DePhillips

      Spot on Mat.
      Dumb leader is dumb as Cat Daddy would say.

    • martyrathbun09

      Yeah, NCG that.

      • Scott Campbell

        Right on, Mat.

        The fact that Miscavige’s only response has been to send out these harassment goon squads and pseudo “reporters” (who’s integrity can be purchased for a dollar) proves that his audience is shrinking.

        The “captive audience” Kool-Aid drinkers are the only ones left who could possibly swallow any of this shit.

      • I guess it is difficult to make case gain if you are committing continuous present time overt acts.

        And, can you image how hard it would be to make case gain, if your continuous overt acts involve:

        -Actively denying to Mankind the most effective route out, while

        -Actively altering the route itself, such that when you are gone, absent actions by others, the route will be sabotaged.

        Can you imagine the A-E that would be required to handle having done THAT?

        James

        “Fiercely embracing the truth, we will prevail”

  22. For Mike and/or Marty:

    As far as the goons go … what is your opinion … do you think they believe they are actually doing some good, or do they have enough common sense to realize that it is counter productive and are just going along for the paycheck?

    Pete

  23. Impartial English Girl

    It’s nice to see these inept goons getting a taste of their own medicine from the ever-eloquent Mr. Rinder. As I recall, not even the reporters who raced down to the wounded World Trade Centre on that awful day nearly ten years ago to present live, unfolding news as it happened went accompanied by bodyguards. If those genuine reporters can run towards the scene of horrific tragedy, chaos, and danger unguarded then how come this third-rate, inept, DM’s-balls-greasing hack cannot go without muscled heavies to interview a few quiet folk on a nice, sunny, afternoon?

    Have to agree with Mr. Rinder about the shoes. In the film Sunset Boulevard, Joe Gillis hid the car that he couldn’t afford behind Jimmy’s Shoeshine Parlour, saying “Jimmy never asked any questions – he’d just look at your shoes to know the score…”

  24. Simply Revolting

    “Looks like something that came from the Salvation Army…”
    Luvin it!!!
    – Bitter irony is; that, like many church members, as part of the financial recovery process, one has to (literally!) buy some things at the Salvos, like, for several years! While these guys, employeed to hassle people by the church, cost how much!?!?

    • I gotta say, buying stuff at the Salvation Army is not the problem here. You can find some great stuff there. The problem here is “taste.” You could put these goons in the mall in Glendale with unlimited credit cards and they would come out with tacky, ugly, tasteless items that reflected their own view of “beauty.” LOL

      • Lynne — You are right about that. Miscall on my part. His problem isnt where he shops, its simply that he ain’t got no class.

        The video doesn’t do either the shoes or the suit real justice. I should have asked him if he does his shopping in North Korea when he goes there on vacation to “get away from it all.”

        But heh, this is the guy that doesnt want anyone to think he is a shill for the church of Scientology. Sort of like the guy caught on video having sex with a 10 year old saying he doesnt want anyone to think he is a pedophile. I think his IQ is a match for his dress sense…

  25. Mike and Marty,

    You two must be considered very POWERFUL individuals to warrant so much attention, not to mention around $20,000 a day!
    I agree! ml, Laura

  26. Mike,
    So following on from this whole vicarious thing that DM has going on…
    now DM has a vicarious 20+ year younger girlfriend? 😀😀😀
    Ooooh Davey! You’re so jealous! Isn’t Mike a stud?!

    • Sam,
      It has to be vicarious, as Dave’s ‘got no willy’ as represented by his statuary at St Hill, The Eunuch.

      What is a trademark DM may be able to protect is the way he can take something like buying and ice cream on a summer’s day and attempt to make one guilty for it. Take the new crime of 20 plus years between bodies, the very same sort of crime that LRH committed with Mary Sue, and for which Dave eventually found them guilty.

      Dave, in a society corrupted by Present Time (the Indy culture Dumbfuck) you redefine ‘moral’ and bring back fond memories in a collective bank reminiscing on Inquisition, Witch Hunt and ‘Cleansing’.

      Hail Dave, hail Dave, hail Dave.

      • Exactly. You read my mind.

        That was a perfect comment Jim.

        Too many summer’s day ice cream cones over here. Very guilty. 🙂

  27. The Trigger Effect – I would advise anyone who never watched James Burkes amazing series ‘Connections’ to take time to do so.
    This clip illustrates an important aspect an example of wich occured 1965 the New York blackout (about 5:00 minutes in)
    DM you clearly NEVER watched this series!!!

    • scilonschools

      If you don’t want to watch all the way through you can go straight to the punchline in part 2 (link below)
      Technology and Technological systems are finely balanced, best left to Architects not to be interferred with by Office Coffee Boys ,

  28. I’m sure any information you think would be of interest to Frank Hibbard (Mayor of Clearwater) would be greatly appreciated. He’s a nice guy. Used to be a neighbor of mine when I lived in Harbor Oaks…
    He should be especially interested in the views of the voting constituency who live in and around Clearwater.
    http://www.clearwater-fl.com/contact/ContactData.asp?radiobutton=City+Council
    Let’s do what DM fears the most… communicate😀

    • Dear Davey/’Minerva’/ ‘Joe’/OSA,
      Here is my letter to the mayor of Clearwater. Can you please post another feature about me on your blog? Giving me lots of attention makes me feel like I really created an effect 😀
      ‘Dear Mr. Hibbard,
      You will most likely remember me. We were neighbors in Harbor Oaks for some time a few years ago after my husband and I moved into the gorgeous house with the old green church roof on Lotus path with our 3 girls.
      I notice from a recent St. Petersburg Times article that you have had personal discussions with the self-appointed ‘leader’ of the Church of Scientology (Mr. David Miscavige) regarding the incomplete Fort Harrison building.
      As a concerned former resident I would like to warn you that the Church of Scientology is under investigation by the FBI for human rights abuses under the ‘leadership’ of Mr. David Miscavige and it may not be wise to ally yourself with such a person until you have looked into all of the relevant facts pertaining to what really goes on in the church. I think this information should be known and brought into consideration by the code enforcement board before any decisions are made regarding the fine owed to the city council by the church.
      My personal email address is firewitch888@yahoo.com should you wish you ask me any further questions or be directed to factual information regarding the church’s activities which should be made a matter of public record.
      Or you could contact Mr. Tobin and the St Petersburg Times for records of his recent investigative reports about the church.
      Sincerely yours
      Samantha Domingo’

      Small world innit? 😉

  29. The company, where Mike Rinder works, develops new technologies for large companies. The day after David Miscavich’s fake Bozo fake reporters accosted Mike (the video above), they followed the General manager of a $700 million division from Mike’s office to his headquarters, which is a $5 billion plus company. The Bozo fake reporters charged into the lobby of this giant company with the same Freedumb tactics, which resulted in more footbullets and destruction of LRH’s legacy.

    “Hi guys,

    I am sorry you were accosted at your company headquarters on Thursday by these fake reporters from the Church of Scientology. As I said, this is just an attempt to by the Church to silence the whistle blowers that work for me doing an honest days work, namely Mike Rinder. On the day before your encounter with these fake Bozo reporters at your offices, they were caught on film harassing Mike Rinder getting into my car after lunch at a local Tarpon Springs restaurant.

    https://markrathbun.wordpress.com/

    (see June 11, 2011 Freedumb Mag)

    I have lived with this harassment for over a year and I just want you to know that it will not and has not effected my ability to create breakthrough technologies that benefit your company and the millions of people who have already personally benefited from my inventions over the years. The Church is nothing more than a local gang of tattooed thugs that will eventually be dealt with by local authorities (Pinellas county judicial system is hard at work on this right now in Clearwater) and the FBI is widely reported to be investigating them and their leader on the national scene.

    Again, I am sorry your company was accosted by these bozos. But, please understand they will eventually be dealt with by the authorities. This is America, not North Korea where powerful leaders like David Miscavich can act above the law. The world is transparent today because of the internet and eventually all cults crumble under this technology.

    Thanks,”

    • martyrathbun09

      Yes, you have lived with this for over a year, and I for one am inspired by your continued equanimity in spite of it all.

    • ” . . . a local gang of tattooed thugs”.

      Pretty much nails it.

      The crimes of DM accelerate by the day. Hard to confront the enormity of the evil. Taking the organization created and devoted to forwarding the only truly liberating technology man has ever had, and turning it into a gang of Nazi-like thugs, apparently free to spread mayhem through the neighborhoods and streets of our cities unrestrained by any conventions of decency or concerns about legal repercussions.

      Unbelievable.

  30. Mike- I can’t believe this man brought up the subject of foreclosure. Is he not aware that in Clearwater Scientologists that I know have scooped up properties cheap, rented them, collect the rent and are not paying the mortgage but are pocketing the money . The attitude is let the banks foreclose. I think this practice is disgusting.

  31. What kept attracting my eye was the camera dude with the backwards beige cap wearing one of those stupid scam Power Balance bracelets.

  32. Maria,
    That bracelet may be part of the DM developed Copper Rod (c) Fecknology. An interplanetary connection via ‘lectronongrons’ emitted by those who have tuned their body, in particular the lower abdomen, to vibrate at cach-speed, which speed is induced by Maxwell House Up the Spout.

    This stuff is way, way up there and only techies and engineers are well, Sherman speak could describe it way better than anything else.

    • Very Good point, Jim.

      Note that Copper Rod (c) Fecknology is synergistic with super premium grade single malt Scotchology.

  33. I look forward to seeing our intrepid reporter soon on yet another investigative assignment.

    The key question I ask myself is: Will he have taken Mike’s comments to heart and shined his shoes and gotten some decent clothes?

    As for his attempt to enturbulate with the 20 year younger girlfriend question. What ROCK does he live under? (no need to answer, we know it’s dm) — men who are divorced or widowed over 50 years old RARELY go after someone their own age.

    Mike just happens to have successfully found someone beautiful, courageous, loyal AND younger.

    Gumshoe is eating his heart out.

    WH

  34. One thought just occured to me about the jazz singer izzy and his wife. Could it be that their OSA op at the gas station was part of working through lower conditions?

  35. Predator reaction. MWH phenomen. Currently you are dealing with the noise. Noise attracts attention. We should look where silence is. I ´m sure there is something more to reveal regarding marginal legal OSA actions.

  36. More than a strategy by DM, I think his gang bang surveillance of Marty and Mike is far more personal than anyone realizes. He is trying to show them he still has power over them. After all, he exercised tremendous power over them at one time and they were tremendous allies and resources that enjoyed. The only reason he had any power over them at all because they allowed it. Once they withdrew their allegiance, he had and has power over them whatsoever. He has no power personally whatsoever and this drives him nuts. He wants to convince Marty and Mike in particular that he still has power and power over them. Obviously he is trying to impress them with the amount of money he can spend and waste. Only power he has is to fool people because he coopted the line to LRH. This is the same syndrome that many world financial leaders have. No power except by covert manipulation of others. At least one of them, who favors democrats and liberal causes, is very very short and has a platform built so he towers over his staff.

    • MQ — I think you are pretty spot on. Unfortunately for Dear Loser, we know his game and we are not playing. Marty and I commented a few times when in LA that the “rolling roadblock” technique was an attempt to control (in fact, export DM’s “Hole” to the outside world) and how laughably impotent he is.

      It’s also all a reflection of what terrifies him.

      He can think of nothing more personally terrifying than having a reporter ambush him on the street and start asking him questions. He is literally afraid to walk on the street in case that might happen. But even worse, he would go absolutely psychotic if he was being followed — he would end up with an armored escort and you can imagine how many demands there would be for police protection — and he would be claiming it as a “hate crime” (but when that day comes, there is enough evidence that he will never make that stick — he doesnt just have “unclean hands” he is covered in shit from head to toe). And finally, his worst nightmare of all — that he comes face to face with Marty and Mike. I literally think he might soil himself….

      • Hi Mike;

        You and Marty, together or separately, probably have enough legal grounds to initiate action against the CofS and Dear Leader. If so, you could both be there for DM’s deposition. Make sure you video it so we can all enjoy the hilarity.

  37. Nice intro music – maybe next time you could find some golden-era type stuff and do some flashy Jeff Pomerantz over the top event-style introduction. That would yank some chains. I can’t believe I actually used to attend events out of choice. Now that is a sure sign of brainwashing.

  38. One thing not mentioned here is that it is funny that the City of clearwater wants the C of S to finish the SP building and are fining them so that they do finish. Maybe they read the LRH info that governments will be next after staff for delivery of Super Power and want the tech?

    ML Tom

    • Tom,
      I wouldn’t go that far. Perhaps taxes for a permitted finished building is a lot more than a shell/hulk construction site which can be collected. The entire building and property is not tax free (office space, dining room, galley etc.), only the parts used for religious worship is (courserooms, auditing rooms, chapel.)

      • That whole building will be tax free. Office space, dining room, galley, etc is all legitimate support areas for religious work.

  39. Great TRs Mike given the circumstance. Sorry you have to deal with this. I don’t know how the church can allow themselves to look so unethical and corrupt. Its mind blowing. I have immense respect for you and Marty because 2 people are essentially shaking the entire structure of a billion dollar enterprise.

    Axiom 10- The highest purpose in the universe is the creation of an effect.

    Looks like you guys don’t have any MU’s on that one.

    And remember the cycle of action. Eventually the harassment will stop. Seems like you are still in the change portion of things.

    My postulates for your continued reach and success into bringing ethics into this highly destructive, unethical, and counter-survival group.

  40. Mike, I would say this qualifies as a hate crime.

    In crime and law, hate crimes (also known as bias-motivated crimes) occur when a perpetrator targets a victim because of his or her perceived membership in a certain social group, usually defined by racial group, religion, sexual orientation, disability, class, ethnicity, nationality, age, gender, gender identity, social status or political affiliation.[1]

    A hate crime is a legal category used to described bias-motivated violence: “assault, injury, and murder on the basis of certain personal characteristics: different appearance, different color, different nationality, different language, different religion.”[2]

    “Hate crime” generally refers to criminal acts that are seen to have been motivated by bias against one or more of the types above, or of their derivatives. Incidents may involve physical assault, damage to property, bullying, harassment, verbal abuse or insults, or offensive graffiti or letters (hate mail).[3]

    • Excellent point.

      If Mike and Marty are part of a RELIGIOUS GROUP, and they are being stalked and harassed because of their membership and affiliation with that group, bingo!

      This is why it is likely important to define what we are doing in terms that are understandable to law enforcement and the courts. Otherwise, it can look like a basically internal conflict.

      This is why, in most situations, DEFINING THE GAME (in terms that are favorable to your objective), and then naming the game and its elements with labels that communicate, is the key initial strategic action.

      Most people miss this point and just play within a game that has already been defined, by someone else. They thing that HOW THEY PLAY is the senior factor. Incorrect.

      Master negotiators, military strategists, etc. know that they win or lose AT THE BEGINNING OF THE GAME, by defining the playing field in a manner that sets themselves up to win, to begin with.

      He who specifies the game and the playing field usually wins.

      Those who are unaware of these principles think the playing field is a given, or don’t even spot it, and play on the playing field others have defined, and hence lose.

      James

      • James and Carol,
        This has been stated before. The subject Scientology, is the religious philosophy as developed by LRH. The ‘church” are the corporations as in CSI, RTC, FSO, etc that supposedly espouse the religion of Scientology. One cannot force you to be a member of a particular group. Your religion can be Scientology. Your group is not necessarily the “church” and can be the Independent’s. Auditing is a service within the subject of Scientology and therefore cannot be enforced to only occur within the “church.”

        That game was defined with the legal wins on the religion of Scientology. The corporations may have 501C3 status but they still remain but corporations. Whomever wants can be a member of these corporations. Many of us choose to not be so but that does not take away from any beliefs or practices we have within this religious philosophy.

        An example easily understood. I may be a Catholic (christian) and convert or join into the group of the Mormon (another christian group) church. No Catholic has the authority, right or power to harass me because I joined another group. In this example both remain christian groups just as the official “church” of Scientology and the Independent Scientology field may both share the common basic of Scientology.

        The group of Independents may also choose which of the LRH materials they wish to follow just as various christian churches choose which version of the bible and other church teachings they wish to follow. I give all who want to follow the current “church” full rights and freedom to do so – but that status goes both directions. I attempt to change nobody that wishes to remain with the current “church.” If they are happy with what they get in their involvement – more power to them. BUT, leave all who want to be Independent of that group able to live and act freely for that choice.

        Freedom of religion is the key here. Freedom to join into, freedom to change our mind, freedom to leave and freedom to join some other group. Legally, once the court cases upheld the subject of Scientology as a religion all true ability to control the field was lost. The only control the “church” has is what we agree it has. We are free beings, free citizens with freedom of choice and action.

        That is the reality of it. Any attempt at control is really just more shadows in the water – no real barrier exists.

        • Doer in the body

          SA, thanks for that useful anlysis. This is an area I think many folks have to still get their head around so they understnad they are on solid footing to be an independent follower and or practitioner of scientology and not somehow UN-ENTITLED. No need to hide or feel guilty.

          Red on white and green on white are scientology’s version of the various gospels, letters and old testament books. Christians of all manner and denomination are entitled to follow and practice and teach these things. PERIOD. Can you imagine the Roman Catholic Church trying to argue before a jury their case that any one of the hundreds of protestant sects must cease their use of material found in the gospels. Or the synagogue arguing against the Catholic use of the old testament. True men of God would not go there. And those who have sought to go there for economic reasons have always lost in the end. The thousands of various denominations of the worlds major belief systems are proof of that. Some truths are so rich they cannot be bottled up, suppressed or rigidly applied by everyone the same way. I suppose this holds true for scientology as well. And this blog is one of the proofs os that.

      • It may not be a bad idea to incorporate an Independent Church just for the above reasons.

        • EXTREMELY BAD IDEA! I fell for the “gotta be a church” thing once but I will not fall for it again.

          • Lynne,

            Not really such a bad idea. Incorporating provides a legal and moral standing lacking a bunch of apostates, disbelievers, former members. The radical church would lose its grounds for attacking former members because the same arguments which the church uses to defend itself would now apply to independents, thus nullifying RCS’s message.

            The church now uses the argument that we are disgruntled “formers” who have no beliefs and are only upset because of our own personal failings. Our own crimes against the church. We are defined in the negative as lacking.

            As an organization with defined beliefs, we become positives. And conversations on blogs do not really serve to define us as a group in the eyes of the legal system.

            Don’t need a formal bricks and mortar church. Don’t need anything but a document of incorporation of some type to which we could all become, loosely, members of an international religious movement joined via the internet.

            It would be like holding up a mirror and turning back an attacker’s laser.

            At that moment, we would have better grounds for demanding pc folders and protection from church harassment. We would have historical precedence serving us. We would have the agreement of all protestants that breaking from an oppressive organization masquerading as a church which serves the self interests of those in charge is a good thing. .

            And every bit of this harassment would OFFICIALLY become religious hate crimes. By law.

            As James mentions, the independent movement has failed to officially and legally define itself, thus has no social or legal standing as a group–just a bunch of individuals.

            Michael

            • There need be no incorporated entity to have the full protection of the law as independent people. Every person (not only church members or members of corporations) has these rights given by the Constitution in the US. All laws about hate crimes apply already – we don’t have to be targetted because of church or official corporate membership, only because of our beliefs and practices.
              I understand you are trying to puncture one of the church’s attack lines – that “we are disgruntled “formers” who have no beliefs” but there is a better way to puncture that – no, to annihilate that argument, and it is already higher than any law of the land, including those covering corporations.

              Add to that, I will never, ever again, give up a dust particle of my rights to my own beliefs by subscribing to any official group that pretends to protect me better than I am already protected ON MY OWN.

            • Michael,
              I have to agree with OO below. Your strongest rights are as an individual. Whatever govt you incorporate under decides what rights the corporation has and that same govt can take then away. Our personal rights in this country are constitutional rights. These are unalienable rights (not inalienable – a longer legal discussion would be needed to educate most as to the difference.)

              Incorporation automatically puts that group entity under the govt jurisdiction. Free independent citizens forming a church, group, etc as individuals are exempt from that jurisdiction. Harassment is ALREADY OFFICALLY a hate crime. You will find almost all hate crimes handled as hate crimes by the authorities are against individuals NOT against an organized corporation. A corporation is an agreed upon beingness and it is “endowed” by the legal body approving the corporate application with what rights that legal body deems fit.

              I, for one, want all of my personal rights intact, and not have a corporation under that state’s government control deciding what rights I would have and how they could be maintained. A corporation is only valuable when you have material assets in your church. A league of Independent Scientologists isn’t attached to brick and mortar or bank accounts.

              As far as Independent field auditing not being tax exempt – rude awakening but under the CSI-RTC setup field auditor payments are not tax exempt either. That tax exemption only cover the Church and Mission corporations. I have always felt that was a bad choice and really sold out the field. LRH envisioned auditors auditing everywhere and I don’t think he would have thought it fair that my auditing at equal rates to the local org were tax exempt and my payments to a field auditor were not. This actually caused the real cost to a field auditor to be higher than to the org and mission.

              All we need to do is demand equal protection under the law as an Independent Scientologist. To the local MAA and OSA treating an Independent as an apostate would occur whether you joined an Independent church of a convent. The attitude from the top down is NO-body who was a Scientologist is allowed to leave – therefore the treatment of ex Scientologists and Independents with force to still control them as part of the sheeple.

              • Sapere Aude,

                Opened worm cans. The wiggling. The squirming. Ideas. Flesh. Seeking a means to persist and flourish.

                I don’t see this as an either/or proposition. You can have both either and or. The way to have your cake and eat it too is to have two cakes. Or twelve. Or fifty.

                I see it as a matter of definition and recognition. The means by which that definition and recognition occur are merely paths of practicality.

                Hate crimes are really based not in individual status but based in an individual being part of a group that comes under attack. Nanny Smith gets harassed by her old church; calls up her congressman, calls up the local authorities, complains about how all these people who used to be her friends are now hating her. Hate. Hate. Hate. And the authorities say, “well, sure, we’ll look into this,” roll their eyes and hang up. Crazy bitch!

                You’ve got no established history of her being a member of a group that is being hated in the eyes of the authorities–even if that church has a long history of harassing former members. The church has recognition and definition as something subject to hate. She isn’t gay or black or whatever. She may well be suffering from hate crimes, but the authorities have yet to define her situation as such.

                Matter of definition.

                Ohio State fan moves into a neighborhood filled with Michigan fans, comes out every morning to find dog shit on the porch, epithets painted on his car, the grass killed by Round-up with the message “Ohio State Sucks!” Lots of hatred there. But, will the police classify it as a hate crime?

                Matter of establishing this as a hate crime in the eyes of the authorities.

                The Church of Scientology has a very long history of aggressively attacking critics in shocking fashion. How many times has the church been charged with “hate crimes?” Ask Paulette Cooper if this is a recent trend?

                Judicial, social, constitutional and political theory are really wonderful topics to debate. But… Practicality. Jails contain too many individuals who really didn’t do it. And the streets are full of people who really did and got away with it in the courts.

                It doesn’t take a long search to find a very, very long list of individuals who have had their legal and constitutional rights trampled by this church.

                Because the church was up against an individual and managed to define (DEFINE!) the situation. If you can define the situation, you can control the situation. If you are the one who is providing the meaning to what occurs so that those in authority will accept your definition, you win. Period. Rights be damned. Constitution be damned.

                Marty and Mike Rinder and others are being successful right now not because they are individuals on the march, but because they are individuals who have the support of a lot of other individuals. They are defining the situation and getting others to agree to that definition. But Marty and Mike as individual individuals without backing? Trouble City. Not much of a chance. They’d get crushed without support.

                My suggestion is merely to amp up that definition so it attains legal status rather than blog-back-scratch status.

                Once you’ve defined the individuals in this group as someone who can legally suffer from “hate crimes” then you have taken a giant step forward legally and socially. I doubt that the courts recognize the independent scientology movement as an official religion. It certainly isn’t a church. So, do the courts currently recognize any member here as being a potential victim of hate crimes?

                Nice to have theory. But…

                Black guy gets pulled out of his car and beaten by a bunch of white guys because he’s a Michigan fan. Police go after the white guys for hate crimes in addition to assault and battery. White guy gets pulled out of his car and beaten by a bunch of black guys for being a Michigan fan and the police go after the black guys for assault and battery.

                Matter of being defined.

                Marty goes to Ft Harrison and makes demands; Church says look at this hateful guy. Church sends representatives to his door and makes demands, says we’re just defending ourselves from this guy who’s attacking us. Used to work wonders for them.

                But, the situation is being redefined now.

                It’s nice to claim, “I’ve got all these rights, guaranteed by the Constitution.” But, rights are meaningless if you can’t get the authorities to agree to those rights. Your rights are only as guaranteed and secure as you can get agreement from those in power.

                As for being under the authority of those in power? It’s sort of like saying, “I don’t want to play professional baseball because I don’t want umpires making decisions over how I play the game. I just want to play baseball according to my own rules.”

                Guess what? This is church is a group that made the IRS back down. This is a group that has managed to harass the media into virtual silence until recently. This isn’t street ball. This is big league ball.

                And there are umpires. There are commissioners. There are all sorts of rules and regulations–written or tacit, explained or hidden. Oh boy, are there points of control and definition in this big league game going on here.

                But, hey, the coffee shop is a wonderful place to chat. And the blog is a wonderful place to visit to express our innocent exasperation.

                And here comes the first pitch. Low and inside. With evil intent.

                Strike Three! You’re out!

                WTF?

                • Excellent analysis.

                • OuT,
                  You and I agree. My comment is mostly the fact of a corporation vs individual rights. We don’t need a corporation. Some unifying 3D as to an Independent does help strengthen ones rights. It is the restrictions and controls over a corporation that are not necessarily our friend. Those laws are treating you as a commercial entity. For profit or not for profit but still a commercial entity. A membership and basic belief organization, called church, league of Independent Scientologists or whatever may be a way to help.

                  Hate crimes are only hard to prove because as a newer group we need to show a track record of OSA, etc instigating hatred against us. A filing at every instance will finally reach a tipping point. Some individual states have stronger laws but the federal law can be used by the feds if they feel the state is not doing enough.

                  I do believe that anyone who has published his name on the Independent list at Steve’s site has a really good case already. They church can shun an independent but that is different than overtly following and harassing the person. The Amish have a “church” which is a collection of families that hold services together. There are many different churches there. But if you, for example, are a member of 8 families who worship together then each weekend you have service at another members house. There is no corporation and not physical location. There is the semblance of an agreement to a group and from that group you could be shunned but not harassed.

                  Evil intentions for now is just one thing to be confronted. It may have been legally, morally and ethically wrong to exterminate people during the Nazi regime but the evil did occur until the tipping point of the world reaction to it was reached. Evil today is allowed to exist for the same reasons. There may always be low inside pitch’s with evil intent. After all, the opposition is being run with evil intentions.

                  I am glad people such as yourself, OO, Mike, Marty, et all are on the side of the Independents. True freedom to be, to do, to have and to practice true Scientology will prevail. We currently have a little clean-up to finish.

                  PS: Don’t you get the feeling that all of the sane one’s are already Independents – in the open or under the radar. We, who see the truth despite the PR from he who shouldn’t be named (or be on any post), are the rational free beings. And, we all seem to be on the same side – I believe the correct side of this issue.

                  • Sapere,

                    My blithe use of “incorporate” may be the source of any apparent disagreement here. I got what you’re saying. Sometimes I find a precision of language here that I don’t encounter in my daily life. Sometimes not.

                    I’m a big believer in abundance of options. Although abundance can become nothing more than clutter, astute accumulation of applicable tools and methods certainly provides a broader range of response.

                    Sometimes, we have a perfectly wonderful tool or word or idea but never find the opportunity to use it. We’re digging through the tool chest, pick up this beautiful wood chisel and think, “Hmm, maybe I should just carve a picture of the Madonna on the front door.”

                    But, your wife looks at you holding the chisel, reads your mind and wiggles her finger back and forth: “Not on your life, Stud. Not if you’re thinking of enjoying the fruits of my beauty for the rest of this century.”

                    So, you gently lay the chisel back in its felt liner, sigh, smile at her, and respond.

                    “Got any Georgia Peaches, sweetheart?”

                    “Just got some in. Want a sample?”

                    God, I love samples: lunch on a budget.

        • SA and Nomnom, I appreciate your points

          The game is taking place within a legal context. Correctly evaluating what your legal identify (actually, also your public identity) should be, then putting in into a tangible, identifiable, agreed upon form, is likely an “Org Rudiment Number One.”

          When it gets to legal action, the IRS, state laws regarding the practice of psychology, etc. the authorities, being somewhat (or a lot) bureaucratic, place a great deal of emphasis on “pattern and form,” NOT on “what your after-the-fact protestations of intentions” are.

          That is because intentions are a theta phenomena, and pattern and form as more solid – more MESTy – so tangible pattern and form is more real to most bureaucrats.

          And, to be a bit empathetic, trying to sort out intentions can be a lot of work for a bureaucrat (or anyone), so their reliance on formalities – tax exemption forms, filings and registrations, etc., though not the favorite thing of those of us who are Libertarian, is understandable.

          So, to win in those areas – in court, before regulators, or even in the press – requires that you and your communications, and how you have defined yourself – be real to the decision makers of those arenas.

          It’s just the ARC Triangle, I believe.

          James

          • James,
            Please keep in mind these formalities of tax filings, etc are for the CORPORATIONS. The status of a religion are NOT contained in them. NO court can adjudicate that. You may read the ruling from the case the church “won” against the Hadley’s. The court skirted the issue stating they could not rule on the religion after the CoS attorney’s pushed the issue into that corner using LRH writings, RPF FO’s etc and the fact that the Hadley’s voluntarily joined the SO.

            We are not discussing making the legal structure tax exempt and that is what the 501C3 documentation does. Per IRS law ALL churches are automatically tax exempt and not required to incorporate or apply for exemption. The church had already gotten into a firefight with the IRS and had their automatic exemption revoked due to personal inurement. That is what the suits were up against.

            I was discussing the fact that ALL Independent Scientologist have full protection under our constitution to practice THEIR religion even if this is different that the “church’s” religion. We have no regulators. The current church can continue and its members who want that brand of technology and the payment thereof are welcome to it. This discussion got going due to the Hate Crime harassment of the Independent Scientologist. I don’t think any of us are starting any arguments with a corporate structure – it is about individual actions by people to harass and stifle due to a difference of belief and opinion regarding the religious subject of Scientology.

            Other than this you and I are in agreement. If all inside and outside the church were more Libertarian we wouldn’t be discussing such insane actions as we have seen against Mike, Marty, Michael and Karen. This too shall come to pass. It is so far over the top that all who see it know it is wrong. Only the blind following orders based upon NON LRH policy “think” they are in the right. To be an “OT” and be that blind – sad. Not even close to what LRH envisioned regarding an Operating Thetan acting pan determined on their dynamics to make this a better world.

    • Carol-thanks for spelling it out!

  41. When I look at this video I can think of no other reference except the one about “degraded beings working for SP’s”. These guys are completely degraded and are under the delusion that if they act this way and do this stuff for THE BIG DB then somehow they will be allowed into the “elite” part this group. It’s absolutely pathetic watching these guys – they are completely socked in never to look at any other view point again. It wouldn’t surprise me at all if all these DB’s have been put into lowers and have been threatened with their eternity. And then on the other hand I’m completely enjoying watching LRH’s policies come to life on the screen! Thanks Bots, you make great demo pieces🙂

  42. I have never heard of any volunteer minister, who has for years been educating underprivileged kids, rehabbed drug addicts etc., being awarded anything. Nor Sea Org and other staff members, sacrificing their lives to deliver Scientology to the world.

    If it’s true that the bozos that embarrass themselves and their church to this degree, get all kind of benefits – then that in itself tells exactly where the leadership of that church is at.

    Mike,
    I loved the line about the unpolished shoes. I used to volunteer at a place that did make-overs on people down on their luck. Some way, no matter the make-over, there was always a thing or two that would give away that they didn’t have it totally together. This guy looks like he’d been made over overnight. His shoes and a few other things gave the true picture away.

  43. Jethro Is In The Zone

    Oh yes, FreeDaDumdDumb magazine, what a joke it’s become. At least when Vaughn Young used to write for it, there were actually some hard-hitting exposes done that were somewhat based on truth. Nowadays it’s just a propoaganda piece for a corrupt, waist-high terror midget. If I ran out of toilet paper, I still wouldn’t pick up a copy of FreeDaDumbDumb magazine.
    Marty, I’m so sure Miscavige is burning through 20,000 a day on PIs. Just look at the clothes they are wearing – Salvation Army leftovers. From the looks of it, this PI couldn’t even afford shoe polish.

  44. I am using another Email-adress to see if I can still post.

    • What could be wrong with my useal Email-adress that it makes me unable to post ? Or combination of Nickname, Email and weblink that will not make me post ?

  45. I said it before and I’ll say it again: The current Church of Scientology more recently specializes in making enemies. It makes enemies because it ignores laws, social rules, familial ties, etc. The way to make enemies is to hate people. Hate eminates from the C of S like never before. The source of the hate is the only person I ever ran into in the C of S that hates people, besides Norman Starkey, is David Miscaviage.

    The policy violations are astounding;

    The correct handlng for someone investrigating the Church: Ignore them.
    The C of S handling is to ATTACK with fervor.

    The correct handling for an ARC Xen field is to use your auditors to clean up the upsets. The C of S handling is to ATTACK ARCXen public with investigations.

    The correct handling for upsets between two parties is the 3rd party tech.
    The C of S handling is to ATTACK any opposition or disagreements.

    The C of S has gone from the Tone Level (in 2009) of 2.0 (Antag) all the way down to .98 (despair). Never have I seen such desperation from an organized activity. DM is very afraid of you guys. Very aftaid. He reads this blog daily with high interest, that I am sure of. And he REACTS predictably but going downtone over a period of time in his actions. It is not far from .98 on the tone scale to 0.0 and this dive down the tones is accelerating as we watch.

    Dave, all you got to do is get in comm so you can find out that all we want is your sorry ass gone. We are a big group getting bigger daily and we will not stop until you are in the slammer with your BFF Bubba taking care of your every need. Or you can take a pile of money and blow. Don’t care if you do. But either way, know that your days are numbered.

    ML Tom

    • Michael Fairman

      Tom
      What you’ve said cannot be said too often. May I add to your comments.

      During this last series of the “Squirrel Buster” farce I was led to the “Hate Marty Rathbun” blog authored by “Minerva” . I had never been to the site and was curious what would be written regarding two of the “Buster’s” targets. Off course the headliners were Marty and Mike, but many who appear on that blog, including myself, were the subject of lengthy dissertations, each followed by a great number of comments. What struck me was the vitriol and viciousness of the articles and the comments, all ad hominem attacks, supported by LRH references. It was patently obvious that PC folders were compromised, that quotes were taken out of context, that out-points were embellished, and that a similar style and tone pervaded all the commentaries. In one, Marty and Mike were compared to David Koresh and Jim Jones. The irony of this is blinding. What became patently clear once again is that those who post and comment on this site of hatred haven’t a clue who the “Koresh” or the “Jones” really is.

      To accept the infallibility, the absolute correctness of Miscavige, and to degrade and savage dissent and dissenters, is cultism; and to justify this by the use of LRH references is obscene.

      Miscavige, when releasing the “Basic” books, used the phrase “the blind leading the blind” when he referred to the inept transcriptions of LRH’s dictation. What in fact has occurred is that Miscavige has blinded himself to the havoc, degradation and misery he has wrought upon those who have been and are entrusted to his leadership; and upon those he has regarded as his “enemies”; and there is the self-imposed blindness of the Church’s parishioners, who continue to see him as infallible, and who justify all his actions without question or a shred of skepticism. There is the true example of the “blind leading the blind”.

      No human being who every lived has always been correct; not one was ever perfect. That’s why many choose paths of enlightenment — to become more aware, to improve the conditions in themselves and in life. This includes an increased ability to observe, without pre-conceptions, without prejudices, biases or enforced ideologies. I believe that is the direction we here on this blog are moving; and that “Minerva”, the Miscavige sycophants, and those self-blinded parishioners are not. They have moved in the opposite direction — a decreased and almost non-existent ability to observe. For they believe they alone are right and everyone who disagrees with them is wrong. In this matter there is a reckoning coming and we will see on which side the truth rests.

      • Michael

        Nicely put. This whole thing really is stretching my realities. I had no idea that I would ever encounter anyone in my lifetime who would go to these depths to be “right”. And of course all he is achieving is to become more and more “wrong”.

        What an amazing display of the reactive mind at work.

        Eric S

      • Amen … L, H

      • Scott Campbell

        Tom and Michael,

        Beautifully said. And your right Tom, It’s not too far a journey to death on the Tone Scale now, which is also evidenced by how serious the C of S has gotten.

  46. After watching a few of these, I believe that these attempts at “interviews” have no other purpose than to goad you into a violent reaction and then use it to further discredit you. The questions are way out of line and clearly not newsworthy. You are a private citizen, not a public official or personality. Men know that degrading wives, mothers and children will create anger in other men and a natural impulse to react in defense. He could have just called you a few ugly, unprintable names and he would have reached his same goal. The guy doesn’t even look at you and is the poorest representation of CofS that possibly could be found. Yuck. He makes my skin crawl.
    You know better than I how this kind of strategy has been allowed to developed within the CofS. It turns the tech on it’s ear – purposely using poor ARC and TRs to harass someone with the intention of creating upset; pushing buttons to hurt someone intentionally. Please don’t reward this. Keep your cool and keep videoing. It will eventually be valuable in convincing a Court that their behavior needs to be controlled.

  47. Posted this at the tail end of the previous thread. I place an amended version here.

    “The object of all despotism is revenue” – Thomas Paine

    Coming out against Miscavige is not just a nice thing to do. People are being harmed. Quite in addition to harassing good people to protect his lucrative position – and make no mistake he has accumulated and continues to accumulate personal wealth out of all this – Miscavige:

    1. Has many long serving Sea Org members under house arrest (base arrest) at Int and subjected to his insane antics.

    2. He has hundreds of middle management staff living a life of useless servitude in Los Angeles, ordered by him to be housed in slum conditions, they have no where else to go and nothing to get there with.

    3. His IAS and Idle Orgs programs continue to financially rape Scientologists across the globe which results in dire fall out in addition to the financial ruin of the many.

    4. His out tech auditing and ethics handlings are rampant, causing more cave-ins than you could count. And again, the fall out spreads way beyond the specific out tech.

    5. Under his illegal dictatorship, the church of Scientology has become “radical Scientology” and all that that implies. Just as real Scientology has huge potential to do good, reverse Scientology has the power to crush, and he wields it.

    6. The so-called Church of Scientology no longer leads the way in clearing the 4th dynamic suppression from this planet and hasn’t for a couple of decades. It used to be the solution, its now part of the problem as Miscavige struts around with the in crowd. If you think all our liberty hasn’t suffered as a result, you are kidding yourself.

    If you were a fly on the wall and witnessed just a tiny fraction of the above you wouldn’t just come out, you’d take to the streets in protest against Miscavige, which is where we really belong.

    Factor this in when deciding whether to make your voice count but realize, enough voices WILL bring Miscavige down.

    “Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter.” Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.

    • Haydn,
      Glad you re-posted this. I hadn’t seen it.

      I think the Chait’s were a good example of the terror on-lines Scientologists are experiencing. It’s literally too terrible to be true.So they live their lives in terror of looking and are miserable thereby.
      I find myself alternately enraged. that so many people purposely stay ignorant of the real scene, and feeling truly sorry for them.
      I’d appreciate it if someone would let me know what the appropriate emotion is for this situation?
      We really do need a mass exodus by the rank-and-file. Seems the only thing that will work.

    • Spot on T. Paine, as usual…

      “4. His out tech auditing and ethics handlings are rampant, causing more cave-ins than you could count. And again, the fall out spreads way beyond the specific out tech.”

      You can add to number 4

      This “out tech” is a matter of life and death for many on OT VII and other OT levels.. The rampant cancer among over-Sec Checked people on “The Level” is appalling. Someday we will see the ratio of OT VII completions to death by cancer or other untimely demises…..these things are never covered up forever. For many, “The end of endless sec checks” is the end…..thanks to DM

  48. Joe Pendleton

    You know what the general public probably thinks each time they see the antics and craziness of the “church” of Scientology? That these guys REALLY should go see a psychiatrist and get some help for their emotional problems. Yes, your “PR” dollars at work, “freedom” magazine (which is about the same level of “freedom” you would find in North Korea or Syria). While I may not fully agree with that point of view, I do think that seeing the run of the mill therapist would probably get them in better shape than they are currently. Most psychologists show more compassion and caring than do these representatives of “total freedom.” Freedom and sanity IS as freedom and sanity DOES.

    • I was at a Writers’ meetup the other evening and when somebody mentioned Sci Fi the subject turned to scornful comments about Scientology. This is just a notation of how bad the public image of the church is.

    • Joe,
      Freedom magazine has changed. It is not promoting freedom or human rights.
      Instead, it causes those who read it to gain Freedom – as in out of Rad Corp Scn to Independence. More of them should be spread and sent out!

  49. Doer in the body

    Mike, that reporter is realizing he is out of his league. Flustered and exasperated. This is a mis-match. I could tell the way you approached him. Like a hungry man heading to the buffet. There is Michelob-lite, Bud-lite, and this was and is Ambush-lite. Maybee in a quieter moment you can talk to him and help him with some of his issues. He is probably not a bad sort. Like you said, he is just there for the check. Have a heart. He looks like he needs a friend.

  50. Simply stated, David Miscavige is a deviant sociopath. He is also clinically (by definition) psychotic. Hence, anyone and everyone viewed through his self-imposed fast moving particle screen is another entity to be destroyed or reduced.

    His mind-thought is: If everyone is weak or dead then I am strong and I live. Backwards and sickening…..

    I take some pleasure watching him do himself in. Again.

    Yes, history repeats itself.

    That’s why LRH did his work.

    To end this crap.

  51. SA, I appreciate your thoughts. And, I appreciate your care and concern.

    For clarity, I don’t think we necessarily disagree. I believe there are concepts that are related, but distinct, in this area:

    Religion, and the right to practice a religion
    Being a church
    Tax exemption
    Exemption from certain laws and regulations, for example those having to do with the practice of psychology, the “Ministerial Exemption” (of litigation fame), filing a 990

    It is necessary to discriminate between a religious group and a church. All churches are religious groups, but a religious group is not necessarily a church.

    And, anyone is free to hold whatever religious beliefs they wish. But, a religion and a church are two different things. I can hold religious beliefs and practice them. That does not mean I am a church.

    You are right, churches are automatically tax exempt. They do not need to, but MAY file for exemption, to play it safe.

    But, because churches are automatically exempt, does not mean that a group or entity is a church, because it says it is.

    The IRS and the courts do make determinations as to what is a church and what is not.. They have a detailed set of criteria. A church does NOT have to have all the characteristics. However, it has to have SOMETHING by which the IRS and the courts can adjudicate whether it is a church. Here are some of the criteria the IRS and the courts lend credence to:

    A distinct legal existence
    A recognized creed and form of worship
    A definite and distinct ecclesiastical government
    A formal code of doctrine and discipline
    A distinct religious history
    Members who are not members of any other church or religious order (transfer letters must confirm membership from one church to another).
    An organization of licensed and/or ordained ministers
    Ordained and/or licensed ministers selected after completing prescribed courses of studies
    Literature of their own
    Established places of worship
    Regular attendees and congregational memberships
    Regular religious sacramental and/or worship services
    Religious instruction for the young
    Schools or courses for preparation of its ministers

    And, while the IRS and the courts will not rule on what are valid religious beliefs, they WILL rule on whether or not they believe religious beliefs are sincerely held or whether the profession of belief is a sham. They have to, or else i could set up the Church of Stock Market Profits, claim exemption, etc.

    I brought all this up because merely asserting, after the fact, that one’s activities are religious, and, particularly merely asserting that one is a church (seeking the many protections churches have), if not backed up by something tangible, is problematic.

    When appropriate, if there is any interest, I will share more info.

    Thanks for being there and for your work.

    James

    .

  52. James,
    Always interest from here my friend. I posted a reply above to OuT. I think all of us basically agree. I have read the IRS regulations. These only apply to a determination of a church for TAX purposes. As I wrote above, a good example for us would be the system of a “church” that the Amish have. We really don’t dispute our viewpoints, we are all of us looking at the same thing.

    I would gladly tip my hat and share a round with you guys any time! Popcorn, friends, some liquid refreshment- the games have begun.

  53. Sapere Aude,

    In response to one of your earlier comments: we’re all a bit nuts. From what I read here, those who are independents can sometimes be impressively sane, but not always. Independents cover the gamut of highly analytical to hysterically (both meanings) and bafflingly irrational.

    Since I have no exposure to the church and its members, I could only guess at the sanity and intelligence of those remaining. Belief has the power to override intelligence and produce odd conclusions, decisions and behaviors.

    I suppose you could say that sanity rests on the willingness to make your own observations and take responsibility for behaviors and conditions based on those observations–being continuously willing to make new observations and relevant changes. Doesn’t matter how smart a person is if he or she is unwilling to observe beyond cherished ideas and test premises in applicable universes.

    And that includes cherished ideas in the independent movement.

    That said, I have a couple of cherished ideas that I had bronzed for display on my mantel. I can spend hours rapt in admiration of the high polish and shimmer of those ideas. Perhaps I could get more accomplished and become better informed if being transported by such lovely ideas didn’t occupy so much of my time. But then I think, “what better way to spend my time then in ideological bliss?”

    Then I head back to my den, adjust the display lights and lotus myself before my little bronze gods. My lovelies. So precious.

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