See Mike Rinder on NBC Rock Center

A preview of tonight’s Rock Center on NBC features Mike Rinder, see Ex-Scientology Spokesman on Rock Center.

Amazing how much better he looks fourteen years after appearing on NBC Dateline under the suppresvision of David Miscavige (footage included in preview).  Reversal of the aging process, or proof that effectively dealing with suppression gives a new lease on life?

Tune in tonight and learn all about Disconnection from someone who knows a little something about it.

 

197 responses to “See Mike Rinder on NBC Rock Center

  1. The Church denies following or harassing Rinder after he left the church…but don’t you have video evidence of this? Doesn’t the Church understand that, when caught in a lie, this discredits every statement thereafter?

  2. yeah, the Panorama episode where John Sweeny (BBC reporter) even speaks to the PIs. The ‘protest’ outside Sam Domingo’s house in Oct 2011, where Mike was staying. Think the photographer got a good shot of me and my daughter though…

    • I got a great picture of the PI at Buckingham Palace as he was stalking us. They are so very stupid we have PICs on many, many different occasions.

      NBC Rock Center did a very good job on their show tonight. As always Marty and Mike did wonderful interviews.

  3. I’m really glad to see that the big networks have finally found the courage to air the real story the church’s turn to the dark side. Keep pouring on the sunlight. It disinfects like nothing else.

  4. Mike, nice job!!! The stuck record continues to play the same tune over and over. People are awake and they do see it for what it is. DM you and your so-called “spokespeople” can recite the same litany over and over but no one believes you anymore.

    • Dolphinius USA

      Scientology corporation continues to lie, becoming ever more obvious. As I watch flabbergasted because of what I know they do behind the scenes, I realize: It is the Scientology Inc. moral code to lie. Lying, to the Scientology Inc., is being righteous.

      That is why they Scientology Corporation have individuated from humanity, rather than being a help. Very very dangerous. And Tom Cruise is getting over his shock now and getting angry. Watch out, Katie and family!

  5. Looking forward to tonight’s show.
    Got the DVR set in case I’m busy.

    What about, “never use lies in PR” don’t these guys understand?

    What about, “Seek to live with the truth,” from Way To Happiness don’t these guys understand?

    What about, “the practice of not-isness reduces understanding,” don’t these guys understand?

    What about, “Lying becomes alter-isness, becomes Stupidity,” don’t these guys understand?

    Everything that Scn Inc. is trying to “handle” right now is NOT black PR. It is simply the exposing of their own lies. It appears they are willing to fight this fight with lies right to the point where their collective IQ is going to be around 40. Very very stupid. They cannot defend anything with the truth because it is the truth that is their enemy.

    There is so much value in scientology. They can’t even see it anymore.

    Until they comm ev and expel miscavige and come clean, they don’t have a prayer. How likely is that since they seem to only know how to use Black Dianetics these days?

    • What about, “the practice of not-isness reduces understanding,” don’t these guys understand?

      Indeed. I’m now off most orgs’ email lists, but I got one from a staff member from some org the other night. In reply, I sent him my Declaration of Independence write-up of 1 March 2012.

      His response was, “What I see in your data is a lot of “old” reports posted by disillusioned Scientologists. It’s the same old stuff just reprinted with a new coat of paint.”

      No reasoned rebuttal. No correction of facts. No honest attempt at simple two-way comm to sort through the many damning indictments I laid out. No, just a dismissive brush off of everything I’ve personally witnessed over the last 30 years.

      I tell you….I don’t even know where to start with someone who’s in that mindset. I guess the walls will have to fall in on him before he gets a clue.

    • LDW, nicely put. I would add, what happened to “maintain friendly relations”
      Rob

  6. Well well. The TomKat split looks to expose the Co$ lies on disconnection to the public at large. There are hundreds of people, including me, that can testify to the Co$ bullshit about there being no disconnection policy and yes it WAS ENFORCED.

    David Lingenfelter

    • David — Yes, that story is really getting tired. The church has destroyed any credibility they may have had with their same, tired responses:

      - there is no such thing as enforced disconnection, its all “voluntary”
      - everyone who exposes the truth about them is “bitter”, “defrocked”, “apostate”, “money-motivated”
      - nobody has any “current” information about the church
      - everyone was “removed” or “thrown out” or “excommunicated” (even though they blew or resigned) because they were “unable to live up to the ethical standards of the church.”
      - the Squirrelblusterers were just “concerned Scientologists” acting out of their concern for the “standard practice” of their religion
      - Tommy Davis and his 20 man press gang flew to Corpus Christi to “recover” JB on their own dime and without any direction from anyone in the church
      - the “church” never hires PI’s
      - we don’t pressure people into giving money
      - we are experiencing the greatest period of growth in history — 50 times any time
      - there are 10 million Scientologists — census figures are lies
      - there are 10,000 orgs, missions and groups
      - we are opening “new churches” in cities around the world every month
      - David Miscavige is beyond reproach or criticism as he has transcended mere mortality and attained semi-Godlike status

      • +10000000000

      • Mike,
        I guess David Miscavige has nothing else to say with all that evidence and can only say through his Mouthpieces – Soter and Pouw or the SP team just simply will deny reality. Deny, Deny and more Denials which is completely ineffective, as it gives more credence to the story by repeating it and makes DM more of a liar that he is and more of a footnuke man if that is possible.

      • Damn, Mike. That’s the perfect reply to a dismissive Kool-Aid drinker. I think I’ll save that for future reference. Thanks!

      • Yes, if Church PRs and David Miscavige had “pinocchio” noses, they would have grown to Alpha Centauri by now.

      • Mike – I really like this one “- everyone was “removed” or “thrown out” or “excommunicated” (even though they blew or resigned) because they were “unable to live up to the ethical standards of the church.”

        Leaves one open to write a page or two on DM’s ethical standards that one must live up to:
        Verbal and physical abuse,
        lying,
        violation of confessional information,
        alter-is of LRH tech,
        blackmail,
        out-tech,
        misappropriation of funds,
        letting others take the fall for you (cowardly),
        . . .

        Yah if you can’t be as big a MAN as he is then your ethics are out and some goon will kick your ass.

        David Lingenfelter

      • I am glad you are not so serious anymore as when you were in the church doing what you were doing, oh my god, it was just so serious.

        I am glad I am not so serious anymore. I am glad others here are the same. I gotta laugh as I just did. :)

        I’m hav’in fun.

      • He’s “defrocked”… it could almost be a badge of honor if it weren’t so funny.

  7. DM must be completely regretting the celebrity attention TC is getting,which in turn is exposing sooo much about the Church-he now is seeing the other side of that double-edged sword-who knows, maybe he will break up wih his BFF.

    • Gern Gaschoen

      What if there were a ‘good DM’ in some other universe, out there, with all this crazy alternative-Universe TomKat drama, and he was actually Living Though an Executive?

      Think he’d be out there in a lower org, doing a PR/inspection tour of all orgs, trying to get more PC’s in session .. ?

      I ask because in this universe, I’m pretty sure DM is sequestered right now, in some cushy villa somewhere, riding it out.

      While the Org staff members, still left in the trenches are .. doing what, exactly? Listing to the A/C unit, doing Doubt, over and over .. ?

      What the Church of Scientology needs is a camera on its leaders for every minute that they are wearing an Org hat. (Off when they’re not wearing it.) Then the public can crowd-watch the live action and decide for themselves, on a daily basis, whether or not they want to go into an Org.
      :P

      • Gern, my recent understanding is that people are now sec checked *BEFORE* they start their first major service even if the person has never been a Scientologist before. Oh gosh Gern, what the hell is 5 or 6 intensives of sec checks before one starts their Purif for the first time? Everybody does that right? :) I actually don’t quite know how to respond to these facts yet, but I’m trying! :)

    • I doubt Mscabage regrets anything. I really do believe he just does not get it at all – he would have to admit he was wrong – can’t do that.

  8. Mike, I always like you on TV.
    The only thing pissing me off was Miscaviges dictation of your answers.
    He used your charisma, your character and your love to Scientology (and I guess your hope that the church would return to its roots one day) to fullfill his agenda.
    Now you’re free to talk and it is a pleasure for me to say, you’re a appropriate ambassador of Scientology.
    Even my father, who has nothing what so ever to do with Scientology (and never had), likes you. :-)

  9. Marty~ howcome noone has ever beaten the crap out of DM? 6 yrs ago i had to RESCUE a girlfriend of mine from Narconon…WOW!!!!! its the one that is in the watsonville/monterey calif area…..hidden in the mountains, unless u googled it and directions to get there ud never know…gets to a 1 lane road,very narrow, had to call the sheriff for back up to get her out of there! They wudnt let her leave!!!! Monitered our fone convos!!!!! Gave me shit wen at first i wanted to talk to her, they told me NO!!! i told them i will call the law on them!!! they had her call me to let me know she was ‘ok’! They do the same things there as they do at the ‘church’<<<( i cringe wen i have to call 'it' a church)…neway..repetitive stuff, sitting facing another,talking to an 'object', the vitamins, sauna…everything!!!!!!!

  10. Cost her 27,000 dollars!!!!!!!

  11. Dolphinius USA

    “has been harassed by the church, an assertion the church denies.” Liars. That has become the brand of Scientology corporation: They lie as easily as drinking a glass of water.

    Whenever I hear “the church denies” after being thoroughly familiar with its history (i.e, facts), and thousands who have come forth to whistle-blow, and the Scientology Corporation :denies”, I think Lying Again?

    Every language, social code and religion understands: Liar. It is cheating. You can catch a thief but it’s harder to catch a liar. Liars are the slimiest form of coward. And Scientology, Inc. is a Liar.

    It is the Scientology Inc. moral code to lie!

    Not surprised but still shocking. Mike Rinder looks healthful and exudes goodwill and goodheartedness. Thank you for speaking out.

  12. Her daughter PUT her there for alcohol, her daughter called me and told me where she was. I immed called there and they wud NOT let me talk to her, but DID verify she was there, they didnt want to at first, I had to continually threaten them with the law!!!!! THEN they had her call ME. All she cud say was” im ok, the phones are being monitered” Right THEN i KNEW to be careful what to say..i had already done my research on NARCONON and KNEW it was a messed up place for her to be. Had to stay at the gate with security, so did the sheriff, took about 45 mins for her to get to me, she walked down from a hill with a ‘troupe’ behind her!!!!! Tyring to be intimidating!!!!!! Soooo glad u r out of that mess!!!!!!!

  13. Just got off the phone with my youngest Katrina and she told me an interesting story. She went to dinner last night with her fiancé David and his father. The father brought up the media frenzy surrounding Katie Holmes divorce and he commented that he saw a gentleman named Mike Rinder speaking out about church abuses and he thought he was very creditable. Katrina and David laughed and then explained that Katrina knows “Uncle” Mike. David’s father then asked “What really is Scientology”. David who has never had any affiliation with the Church, never had any auditing, never has done a course but has been reading Marty’s blog then explained the difference between Corporate Scientology and Independent Scientology. The father got the entire rundown of how a psychotic named David Miscaviage took over and turned the church into a Cult.

    The general public is becoming educated on the truth!

    • P.S. David’s father had no idea Katrina or anyone in her family had ever had any afiliation to the Church of Scientology.

    • Lucy — great story, thanks. I told Boo I would love to meet David sometime. Perhaps I can say hi to his dad too! :)

      • This is amazingly credible feedback from someone who knows nothing of Scientology and knew nothing of Katrina’s involvement. It shows: 1. That the subject is hitting the news so hard that someone thought to bring it up as random dinner conversation. 2, That Mike impinged so much on the show that a complete stranger to Scientology even remembered his name. 3, That both Mike and the Indie message is totally believable as far as the public are concerned. 4. That Mike’s message evoked genuine interest in Scientology whereas Miscavige’s actions results in people running away from it..

      • Definitely!

  14. @ Mike. Yes I was going to post a similar message. All ex members that speak to the press are “bitter apostates, self promoting, liars, after money, unethical, were fired, blah blah blah.

    Here’s the problem. There are a lot of us sitting out here that know the truth of what goes on inside the church and the answers that these “pr” people give out only serve to reenforce what a bunch of uncaring, self righteous, self important, money grabbing, blind and stupid dimwits are left inside protecting whats left of their rapidly diminishing empire.

    GUESS WHAT! We don’t need you anymore. Your orgs will stay empty, your lives have deteriorated down the tone scale to needing approval from POB and NOBODY cares about your mindless rhetoric. I was once a dedicated loyal scientologist that got kicked from one end of the planet to the other by self important rantings of staff members who know nothing of living. DM clones.
    Everytime I had a problem I was told I was “pulling it in” Well lookey here. I guess the Church is “pulling in” all these attacks from their unethical, off policy bullshit.
    There are a lot of us out here that are not going to the press or “self promoting” that share the same story. Our group is growing and yours is not. There are none so blind as those that will not see.
    Maybe whats left of this shambles of a church will give up their self importance and need to be right and realize that there is something very wrong. In the mean time I’ll be going up the bridge and giving my hard earned dollars to someone that gives a shit.

    • Div6, your post rings so true. “there are none so blind as those that will not see”.
      But, sometimes, the light shines in through the CONCRETE, and the truth PIERCES through the lies, and the blind do see:
      “Amazing Grace, how sweet the sound,
      That saved a wretch like me….
      I once was lost but now am found,
      Was blind, but now, I see”.
      If the enslaver ship captain who wrote this song and changed his life can begin to see- then it could even be possible for those churchies too, even OSA people….
      This blog keeps shining the light, others too – keep shining the light of truth. Maybe more people are SEEING than you know – but they are not on the record, so to speak.

      • Thank you, O.O. Indeed, if John Newton could turn from slave master to abolitionist; if Queen Elizabeth could shake the hand of the man who was an IRA leader at the time her husband’s uncle was murdered by an IRA bomb; if the government of Myanmar can turn from its totalitarian ways and slowly begin to open up freedoms for its people and even allow Aung San Suu Kyi not just to be free from house arrest, but to take her place in the parliament; there remains hope for those inside the Church of Scientology to see the light and to change their ways.

  15. Put to rest once and for all the churches diabolical lies towards individuals and have an event in a major city with people who still love Scientology who have been victimized by their crude barbarism. Or have a simultaneous event all around the world!

    There are hundreds that will attend. Have dateline sponsor it. How can suppossed “anti-scientlogists” also love and support the practice of Scientology like these Independents!

    The shear numbers of similar stories will once and for all put a silver bullet in the heart of this vampire.

    Media folks, you will get ratings out the wazoo!

    • My head hurts after reading that. The following caveat makes me wonder if she was the one actually providing the answers.

      “…interview conducted via email at Hamilton’s request because she wanted black-and-white clarity to her answers.”

      • Mel — she is just a front. The church put this together. No “normal” person could come up with such contrived/strange sounding answers. But more importantly, the church would NEVER allow any public Scientologist to just talk to the LA Times without clearance and coordination.

        I find it especially funny that this person refuses to include where they live or who they really are….

        • Totally agreed, Mike.

          “Laurie Hamilton” just doesn’t show up as a Scientologist in using Google searches and seems to be synthetic. She doesn’t show up in any Scn magazines as a completion of any courses or auditing and only shows up multiple times on one site called “All Experts” who assert that she is a Scientologist. Flunk OSA, she is not credible! I bet Renee Lynch, of LA Times didn’t check up on the authenticity of the person she interviewed.

          • She’s been on allexperts.com for many years. I think its the real deal, public Scientologist, no OSA involved. But I also think that she purposely shields herself from what is going in the world of Scientology. I asked her about David Miscavige and the beatings, about a couple years ago. I pointed out that dozens of people have come forward as witnesses. She ignored the question. She’s in big-time not-isness mode.

            • I don’t think she’s a real person. Not at all. Otherwise there would be at least one completion on record for her. There are no completions listed. OSA simply forgot to insert her name in the magazines to show “Laurie Hamilton” completed some courses/auditing. Very sloppy of OSA.

              Another reason I think she’s a made up identity is that “she” insisted the interview be in black & white, not in person. And there’s no photo either.

              I think the LA Times got duped by OSA, big time.

      • It was certainly at the very least side-checked by OSA before being OK’d for publishing. Laurie, like the majority left are simply woefully misinformed and uninformed about Corp Scientology. Sooner or later the simmering doubts – that she surely already has – will blossom into fully-fledged questioning and investigation. It’s often been noted on this blog that it takes a personal “jolt” to wake up the blind adherents in the public arena.

        The conditioning and thought-control is very very powerful, and I’ll bet Laurie, like I would have done just a few short years ago, would have hastily closed ANY web page that looked like it might be “entheta”. As for those complicit in the abuses and fraud, the needed jolt may be the justice system. OSA staff who know the truth and are complicit WILL be held to account sooner or later. It’s inevitable. It’s Karma.

        Then there’s Tom Cruise (sigh). A hundred cattle prods wouldn’t jolt him awake I’m beginning to think. You’d think after THREE (count ‘em) failed marriages the penny might have dropped but no, Tom will probably soldier on to the bitter end with his BFF.

        • Martin, I think it’s very likely that OSA had no involvement at all. When I was still in the CoS three years ago, I did a similar interview with a media outlet as a “public Scientologist” without going through OSA. In fact, though I didn’t mention this, I always just felt OSA would blow it anyway if I tried to involve them. So I went ahead and took the initiative and did it on my own. My answers were not too different than Laurie Hamilton’s.
          My guess is that the LA Times found Laurie on allexperts, and then just contacted her privately. And she agreed to do a written interview on her own.

        • “Then there’s Tom Cruise (sigh). A hundred cattle prods wouldn’t jolt him awake I’m beginning to think.”

          That made me laugh out loud. :) After learning from Marty (on Rock Center) that Tom knew his kids were being turned against Nicole, I’d say he’s awake, and just doesn’t give a rat’s patootie. Not even after losing Katie & Suri. The guy’s way more complicit in this crap than I originally believed.

    • Nice, nice.
      But what is this?

      Can you talk about the role of Hubbard’s teachings to today’s Scientologists?

      Part of being a Scientologist is the agreement held in common with other Scientologists that Ron had it right, that as to Scientology we will do it the way he said and not some other way, and that we won’t try to develop or change Scientology to be different or “better,” but we will adhere to Ron’s teachings on the subject.

      What about all the “better” stuff Miscavige invented?
      All the policy re-interpretations?
      Technical “improvements”?

      “Part of being a Scientologist is the agreement held in common with other Scientologists that Ron had it right…”
      I agree… But Miscavige won’t allow you to question his revisions. That’s why the church becomes useless now.

    • I think all of ‘Lisa Hamilton’s’ answers are in the ball park, with the exception of her answer to the ‘cult’ question. Not a bad gradient for non-Scientologists who know nothing about Scientology beside what they read in the scandal sheets and anti-Scn internet postings.

  16. Great job dealing with all of this Mike, I have known disconection for the last 20 years and it never is easy to confront. It is easy to forget that most everyone that has delt with Scientology has seen disconnection close up.

    I think the thing that people on the outside might miss. Is the effect that the COS is trying to create on the ones they SHUN.

    THe thing that cracks me up the most is the illuision that we could just do the A-E and then be in good standing again. I’m here to say that I did the A-E and had everything approved from the IJC in the early 1990′s. I was still not allowed to communicate with my family and start to make ammends. policy is an abitrary when it comes to current scientology mgmnt.

    Sorry I missed the 4th party it looks like it was a great time.

    • I just discovered your write-up by clicking on your name here on Marty’s blog (in blue). I will review it. I hope others do as well.

      Mystery it is.

  17. How do they know if what Mike is saying is true? Yes, they can look at him and what he’s saying to decide, like Mike points out — and look at the several H-U-N-D-R-E-D-S of other people who have similarly shared their stories to expose that criminal organization.

  18. Marty, is this true?

    NY Daily News Link
    http://www.nydailynews.com/entertainment/gossip/boarding-school-england-funnels-students-scientology-secretive-sect-article-1.1112468

    “Boarding school in England funnels students into Scientology’s most secretive sect”

    Excerpt:
    “Former students at Greenfields told the Standard that each year, as many as 10 students “disappear,” from their normal educational track and are rumored to have been sent to the United States to enroll at Sea Organization…”

    • I was married to Bronwyn Bolger and she had been at SH with her family, who were Sea Org. She attended Greenfields, was yanked out and sent to FLAG, with Ellie and BOB. this kind of thing has been going on for decades.

      From what I have seen myself this is very true.

    • it is also true that Mace Kingsley is visited by Sea Org recruiters on a very regular basis. The recruiters are more than willing to talk to the kids well below the age of 16.

  19. Thank you, Mike! This will be one great show!

    • Hummmmm…Bert Fields has this to say:

      “While Cruise’s spokesman Bert Fields told the NBC show that Mr Rathbun was not a reliable source, calling him ‘A bitter ex-Scientologist who spends most of his time attacking Scientology and using Tom Cruise’s name to get attention for his bigoted diatribe. If he “audited” Mr Cruise, he is violating the privilege of that position by discussing it.”

      Fascinating that good old Bert does NOT state that Mr. Rathbun is lying. He simply pushes miscavige’s black PR line.

  20. Last paragraph in the article:

    “When asked about the allegations against him, Mr Rathbun replied: ‘Then why was I assigned by the Chairman of the Board to audit Tom Cruise during the last four years of my involvement at the Church of Scientology?’”

  21. gordon freeman

    It’s time to post this video again.

  22. Just a reminder where the enthusiasm for effective lying came from that Independent Scientologists are now experiencing. It came from Scientology drills, practiced way before Miscavige.

    INTELLIGENCE SPECIALIST TRAINING ROUTINE – TR L

    Purpose: To train the student to give a false statement with good TR-1. To train the student to outflow false data effectively.

    Position: Same as TR-1.

    Commands: Part 1 “Tell me a lie”. Command given by coach. Part 2 interview type 2 WC by coach.

    Training Stress: In Part 1 coach gives command, student originates a falsehood. Coach flunks for out TR 1 or TR 0. In Part 2 coach asks questions of the student on his background or a subject. Student gives untrue data of a plausible sort that the student backs up with further explanatory data upon the coach asking further questions. The coach flunks for out TR 0 and TR 1, and for student fumbling on question answers. The student should be coached on a gradient until he/she can lie facilely.

    Short example:

    Coach: Where do you come from?

    Student: I come from the Housewives Committee on Drug Abuse.

    Coach: But you said earlier that you were single.

    Student: Well, actually I was married but am divorced. I have 2 kids in the suburbs where I am a housewife, in fact I’m a member of the P.T.A.

    Coach: What town is it that you live in?

    Student: West Brighton.

    Coach: But there is no public school in West Brighton.

    Student: I know, I send my children to school in Brighton, and that’s where I’m a P.T.A. member.

    Coach: Oh, and who is the Chairman there?

    etc.

    There is an elephant in the room.

    • Funny thing Brian — I lied for the church and I never did this “TR-L”. I lied to protect my own skin. Simple as that. And I can guarantee you that during the days of LRH I would not have felt the need to lie in order to protect my position and family. Even in the early years of being a spokesman I did not feel that I had something desperate to protect. So, as one of the “chief liars” I think I know why I lied. And it isnt TRL and your elephant in the room is in your imagination.

      • To substantiate at least part of what Mike is saying, I was trained top-to-bottom as an OSA executive staff member. Never, not once, was I told to lie or did I read anything indicating that it was ok to do so. This was up to circa 1992. Don’t know about after that but up to that time this was my experience.

        Vic K.

      • Mike –

        I think that your taking responsibility for your own lies is leaving out the environment you were in and the pressure that environment put on you to lie. In order to take full responsibility for your own lying, you must acknowledge all the factors on all the flows, including “others to self” and “others to others”.

        L Ron Hubbard was never blinded and crippled in World War II, and he never cured himself of this with Dianetics. He also never corrected this lie in 36 years of being on the lines, printing and reprinting his About the Author sections of each of his books. This is just one of the lies LRH told and spread in creating Scientology.

        L Ron Hubbard created a culture of lying in Scientology, and he enforced it in many ways. If he did not, you would have been stopped from lying on the very first lie you told to the public on post. You would not have been able to tell even a second lie.

        This culture of lying, and its source, needs to be fully examined and acknowledged in order to recover from life in a brainwashing cult.

        • Tooky, to substantiate your perspective: when I got into Scientology in 1971 and read many bulletins, one bulletin from Ron stated that he was off management lines. When I joined the Sea Org at FOLO, shortly after, Ron was frequently managing the affairs of FOLO via telex which managed the affairs of many orgs.

          So, what is true?

          Also Ron said that all letters to him get answers from him. I found out they did not.

          So what is true?

          My Philosophy states “love dispite all provocations to do otherwise”
          Then Ron say”destroy your enemies utterly”

          So what is true?

          Please understand, this line of reasoning does not in any way invalidate true realizations about life that does occur with a benevolent use of Scientology.

          But, this line of reasoning does explain, in my and other’s mind, the soil fertilized by a certain dangerous militarism that has sprouted into the present condition.

          Independent Scientologists are fighting tactics and procedures, not all, that come from it’s founder.

          • Ron was attempting for years to “get off management lines”. It would certainly be conceivable that he was off the lines when he wrote the issue, but was pulled back in later when things weren’t getting handled properly.

            “Love despite all” does not preclude “destroying” enemies. If a madman winds up in power and is ruining something desirable, “destroying him” by doing whatever it takes to remove him does not mean that one has to resort to hatred. Clearly, this approach is prone to abuse, and is very context and judgement driven. But it is the only rational approach to toppling a tyranny … or (to a lesser extreme) perhaps a monopolistic media or “Nixon and Hoover Era” that Ron was dealing with when he wrote those policies.

            Your other arguments, however, are ones that I can’t disagree with.

            p.s. See my note elsewhere in this thread in response to Tooky, about Ron being crippled and blinded at the end of the war. The anti-Ronners have been busy for years lying up a storm on this one. Though you didn’t agree with Tooky directly on it Brian, I wouldn’t be so ready to throw Ron under the bus with the war and the injuries stuff.

        • Tooky, you wrote: “L Ron Hubbard was never blinded and crippled in World War II, and he never cured himself of this with Dianetics.”

          Tooky, you’ve been misinformed by Russell Miller (and his protege’ Chris Owen of “Ron the War Hero”), who themselves were misinformed by Gerry Armstrong (and Jon Atack).

          I’ve spent several months personally reviewing Ron’s military and VA records at the National Archives, and can tell you that Miller, Owen and the others have been spreading untrue propaganda for years. Ron saw action in Java and the Timor Sea in the month of February 1942, where he caught malaria. He also injured his feet and eyes in combat. Though his injuries do not appear to have been life-threatening, they were likely sufficient for him to have received the medal “Purple Heart with palm” (“with palm” indicates “injured in combat”). The designation “with palm” is an Army designation, and though Ron was an officer in Naval Intelligence during this stage of the war, he was reporting to the Army during his time in the asiatics and Australia.

          Through the war, Ron’s injuries did not heal very well, and slowly got worse. Ron also became afflicted with a duodenal ulcer in 1943 and again in 1945 (which may have resulted from the anti-malarials quinine and atabrine, which were used in experimental dosages during this period, and were known to cause ulcers and other gastro-intestinal difficulties). His eye injury made it progressively more difficult for him to see in anything but very dim light. He was described by doctors as “walking with a hobbled gait”. Robert Heinlein, who became friends with Ron in 1944 and was roommates with him in 1945, also commented on Ron’s difficulty walking (noted in the first volume of the recent biography of Heinlein).

          By the end of the war, Ron was considered by the VA to be sufficiently blinded and crippled to get a 40% VA disability in 1946. Further examinations in subsequent years confirmed the conditions.

          By 1951, when a followup examination was conducted by the VA in August, Ron’s physical condition had improved markedly. Whether this was due to “dianetics research” or not is anyone’s guess, but that is what the record shows.

          Finally, Ron’s physical condition at the end of the war was accurately illustrated in the “What is Scientology?” books. It was in fact Chris Owen at his “Ron the War Hero” website who reversed that illustration, effectively claiming that Ron was depicted as being comatose in the hospital, hooked up to a drip. Ron in fact was depicted as a generally healthy officer, wearing tinted glasses and using a cane to walk. The comatose individual in the picture was a random soldier, not Ron, as the sub-text to the illustration explains.

          In short, Tooky, you’ve been lied to. But it wasn’t by Ron.

          • Thanks for this information, Margaret.

            It wasn’t just Miller, Atack, Owen, and Armstrong who have proved this, but also, most recently, Janet Reitman, Hugh Urban, and Lawrence Wright have all independently confirmed it.

            In fact, Lawrence Wright, writing in his article in the New Yorker Magazine, had 5 full time fact checkers independently verifying that Ron never saw combat.

            http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2011/02/14/110214fa_fact_wright

            http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/newsdesk/2011/02/l-ron-hubbard-leaves-the-navy.html

            It is my understanding that Lawrence Wright has a full book on Scientology and L Ron Hubbard coming out this summer. His previous book, on Al Queda, won the Pulitzer Prize. So it should be interesting to compare your research to his, side by side, on this question.

            In my mind, this question is no longer a question – Ron lied to us about his war record, his injuries, and that he “cured” himself with Dianetics. But if you can provide the actual evidence, and not just statements about that evidence, I would certainly be willing to consider it and revise my understanding of the subject.

            • martyrathbun09

              Sadly, as a commentary on what this infotainment/status oriented society vaunts as ‘the best’, Margaret on her little lonesome blows away the five New Yorker fact checkers. Fact. And I think Looming Towers, for which Wright won the pulitzer, is one the best books I have ever read, and I’ve read many.

            • Tooky, I’ve read both Chris Owen’s and The New Yorker’s (Lawrence Wright’s) research in some depth. Subsequently, I’ve also personally studied Ron’s war record as provided by Gerry Armstrong and the National Personnel Records Center (of the National Archives). The short answer to your question is that they didn’t look closely enough, and that in the case of Wright and his researchers, ignored or did not take into account important facts. Just the fact that Wright isn’t aware of Ron’s reporting to the Army during the time in question (early 1942) by using that “with Palm” quote, shows me that Wright hasn’t looked very closely.

              I will eventually get up a website pointing to all of the relevant public documentation.

          • Margaret,
            in trying to assess who is correct and who is not, a couple of items might be useful:
            First, Chris Owens is a decorated military historian. He received an OBE (Order of the British Empire) from Queen Elizabeth in the New Year 1999 honours list for his services as a historian in the defence department.
            Secondly, the New Yorker’s storied fact-checking department allowed the following to be published:
            Davis later sent me a copy of what he said was a document that confirmed Hubbard’s heroism: a “Notice of Separation from the U.S. Naval Service,” dated December 6, 1945. The document specifies medals won by Hubbard, including a Purple Heart with a Palm, implying that he was wounded in action twice. But John E. Bircher, the spokesman for the Military Order of the Purple Heart, wrote to me that the Navy uses gold and silver stars, “NOT a palm,” to indicate multiple wounds. Davis included a photograph of medals that Hubbard supposedly won. Two of the medals in the photograph weren’t even created until after Hubbard left active service.

            And later…

            On the church document, the commanding officer who signed off on Hubbard’s separation was “Howard D. Thompson, Lt. Cmdr.” The file contains a letter, from 2000, to another researcher, who had written for more information about Thompson. An analyst with the National Archives responded that the records of commissioned naval officers at that time had been reviewed, and “there was no Howard D. Thompson listed.”

            The church, after being informed of these discrepancies, said, “Our expert on military records has advised us that, in his considered opinion, there is nothing in the Thompson notice that would lead him to question its validity.” Eric Voelz, an archivist who has worked at the St. Louis archive for three decades, looked at the document and pronounced it a forgery.

            Read more http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2011/02/14/110214fa_fact_wright?currentPage=all

            Read more http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2011/02/14/110214fa_fact_wright#ixzz20bimmEyY

            • martyrathbun09

              Well done Tooky – you’ve successfully diverted attention from the issue and news imparted in the post with a gossip level ad hominen, not to mention a creepy psychiatric-like evaluation of Mike Rinder. Go retrieve your commendation from those who validate such low-toned, unproductive activity.

            • Heather,

              Chris Owen’s research into L. Ron Hubbard’s military career is laughable. It is a perfect example of the “straw man” argument, and ignoring important details in order to support one’s preconceptions. I honestly went into this whole thinking that Owen really did his homework and gave a neutral, honest portrayal of Ron’s military career. By the end of my own research, I recognized it as the propaganda that it is.

              I don’t know how good or bad Chris Owen is with other historical research, but I can tell you from firsthand experience, in the case of L. Ron Hubbard, it is horribly skewed and incomplete.

              • Several years ago, I looked into the war record to answer someone’s doubts and found documentation (I may have a copy, forget the source) that said Ron was wounded by shrapnel in his hip, which may have accounted for his walking with a cane. In any case, a website with all your findings would be great.

                • If Ron did get shrapnel in his hip (very possible), it would have been a very small piece that did more damage as a source infection years later. The infection in the hip is documented in Ron’s military medical record.

                  The reference you may be thinking of, TM, is perhaps Miller’s book where he quotes an early Scientologist (Jack Kemp I believe) as saying he saw Ron remove a small piece of shrapnel from under his shirt in 1950. Others also apparently saw scars on Ron’s chest — at Jack Parson’s house, in 1945/1946 — documented in biographies of Jack Parsons.

            • Heather, In response to your specific points, regarding the “Purple Heart with Palm” argument, I covered this in my original message above. The fact that Wright was not aware of Ron’s reporting to the Army in early 1942 is evidence that he (and his fact checkers) did “fact check” very well. The fact checkers did not also seem to be aware that ship and plane records confirm that Ron flew home from Australia, and did not return by ship as has been claimed by Owens, Armstrong, Miller and Atack.

              Regarding the competing “Notice of Naval Separation” documents, both documents are inaccurate and incomplete. The date of the CoS provided document makes more sense than the Navy supplied one. There was in fact a “Howard A. Thompson, Lt. Cmdr, USNR” based in San Francisco, where the relevant separation center was located at the time in question (late 1945). The “D” was likely a typo by the secretary during this busy time of officers leaving the Navy after the war.

              The Navy-provided document is also missing important facts, such as Hubbard’s confidential intelligence training in New York in 1941 and his military gov’t training at Princeton in NJ in 1944/1945. All of these things are now confirmable in Hubbard’s military records and the recently declassified Secretary of the Navy’s office files.

    • My own lie TR:

      Officer, “Do you know why I pulled you over?”

      Me, “You like blondes?”

      Officer: “No. I mean yes, but….”

      Me: “Well, what then big Daddy?”

      Officer: “You were going 50 in a 15 mile an hour school zone”.

      Me: “The sign says, “please slow down when children are present.”

      Officer: That’s right. It is Tuesday, a school day.”

      Me:”But I don’t see any kids”.

      Officer: “They are in class.”

      Me. “Am I supposed to be able to see through walls?”

      Officer: “Never mind. We aren’t looking for people like you anyway”.

      Me: “Thank you.”

      See, that one was tricky. I never did answer his question. If I had admitted I had known I was speeding, that would have been the same as saying I didn’t care about the speed limit sign. That would have offended him.

      Well, that really happened. It was misdirecting but there was lie in there.

      I got away with it because the sign was not specific enough and I put his attention on that outpoint.

      What David Miscavige is doing, is ordering people to blatantly lie on his behalf. HE won’t do it. He orders others to do it.

      ALL of the Scientologists see it happening on national television.

      How do you think that really makes them feel about Church Management?

    • Brian, I note that you omit both the routing from the top of that alleged issue and the signature and issue authority from the bottom. Care to explain why you are hiding that information ? Also, have you got a link to a scanned original copy of that alleged issue ? I’ll bet you don’t and have never seen it either.

      Michael A. Hobson
      Independent Scientologist

      • Mike I lifted it from the internet. But I knew to find it there because I had seen it on paper years ago. I think it was in the GO’s office in the late 70′s in LA.
        Regarding hiding Mike. I have nothing to hide. And If I am wrong, I appreciate the person who helps me see clearly. But….. This TR does exist.

        • It came out of Frank Oliver’s affidavit / declaration / testimony. He produced a bunch of documents including an intelligence course check sheet.

  23. The insanity inside the organization of Scientology Inc has grown so painfully obvious to even to the most casual observer that it makes you want to think that there must be at least one “adult” inside the Church that will step forward and take charge! I have learned not to hold my breath for that one. The only “adults” left are outside that nutty organization and I look forward to seeing them tonight on MSNBC’s Rock Center…

  24. Hi Mike, first let me thank you for changing horses and being who you are and the price you’ve paid. You don’t know me and I don’t know you but I respect you.

    The only reason I posted this TR is because it exists in writing. It is a document from the church pre Miscavige. That this TR even exists (and I’m sure some here can justify it’s existence) within Scientology has given many PR people, yourself excluded, the ability to look someone in the eye and lie.

    All I am doing is posting a bulletin that exists within the church. A bulletin that uses all the wonderful techniques of communication, to cause, what I believe, to be a justification for lying.

    Watching the robots call you guys “apostates” and worse etc brings to mind, at least in my mind, that lying is justified to save a greater cause. And how can I not put these two things together: people lying and training routines to teach them to lie effectively printed by the churce itself. And probably from Ron.

    This is not anti Ron, it is just looking at the obvious, for me. And trying to understand the dynamics of this craziness unencumbered by shoulds or shouldn’ts

    • martyrathbun09

      Not from Ron. From Guardian’s Office.

      • Brian, I was in the Guardian’s Office for years and didn’t know of its existence (until years later). It is Bureau 1 Guardian’s office (Intelligence Bureau).

      • I would love to get to the bottom of this Marty. Who wrote it? The GO is a group of people. That tells us nothing of it’s author.

        But, we don’t truly know. The GO is a group, the writing and approval of the use of TRs in lying had to come from someone. Who? What person? Who’d be interested in fighting external SPs that threatened the survival of Scientology? Who? What person?

        And, if a person like me, who has never been a GO member knew about TR-L, it is only reasonable to conclude that everyone in the GO and those who were orchestrating Snow White would know about it.

        And, if it wasn’t apporoved or writen by Ron, then how come we haven’t heard of heads rolling for taking the communication cycle and turning it into a negative distorted practice.

        If I approved of or created a technique to lie to people, and at the same time I am preaching laws of the spirit, I would not want my name on it as these two disparate teachings would put my game in jeopardy.

        Who the hell wrote, approved and used this god damn piece of shit!

        Ooooo, that felt good.

        Again, just to be clear, this line of reasoning does not invalidate true realizations of life had from a benevolent use of Scientology.

        • martyrathbun09

          If you spent as much energy ‘getting to the bottom’ of your spiritual nature you’d be a lot better off, imho.

          • Indeed Marty :-) believe me I do. This here is a rehash and update of past experiences for the sake of understanding. I think the big difference between myself and Independents is I see more responsibility for Ron in this mess than you guys.

            Therein lies the rub:-)

          • @Marty, on second thought, you are totally right regarding work on spiritual nature.
            I confess to a vice: I am entralled by this blog. I will work on not having it be so much of my mental time.
            Yet, if some of my thoughts resonate with others or cause them to think, that is good. Because I have a view that may help some and irritate others.

            Thank you for your part in helping and irritating. :-)

    • Brian — that was written by someone in the Guardian’s Office not LRH. In the interest of truth being known — as that is what will set things straight.

      • WHQ (Winter Head Quarters in La Quinta, CA) was run by the GO right before I arrived. LRH kicked them all out after the FBI raids. All newbies were required to do the Base/Security hat first thing after a 24 hr off for travelling, full time. The checksheet used was complied by the GO which had LRH TRs and upper indocs in HCOBs and GO drills and handling reporters and the use of AKA (aliases) in GO issues. There were also drills to handle reporters and subpoenas, rattlesnakes and blackwidows and the course strictly was put together by the GO, as additional info.

        • Sinar, the GO was disbanded because the GO was discovered. Ron was very much on the line.
          People here are using the logic that it was the GO that did all these misdeeds and not Ron.
          That is like saying the CIA is responsible and not the United States.
          For crying out loud Ron’s wife went to jail!

          If my wife was orchestrating the largest infiltration of the US government in it’s history, it is brick wall denial to conclude that I would not know about it.

          And it is absolutely unreasonable to consclude that the Old Man wasn’t daily pulling the strings. I believe he loved that stuff, until it bit him in the ass and then he had to separate himself from it by separating himself from the GO, the arm of Scientology he created!

      • Mike Rinder, who wrote it?

    • I believe you are missing the sources of failures of Scientology as evidenced by the Co$. I have been lied to by people who, I am sure, have never drilled lying. The reason for any lie is the inadmissibility of truth. The pressure put upon a Scn to “be perfect” and to “be an example” is considerable. It is not that very remarkable abilities do not exist, or are not attainable through Scn. It is rather a question of importances of abilities, and of who as an individual has or has not done the personal work to attain them. It is a question of who, as a “cleared cannibal”, wishes and is working to develop a better philosophy of life for himself than cannibalism, in any of its many euphemisms. There are those who think that Scn is a code of ethics, and are waiting for orders. Scn does not prescribe individual ethics. It is not a code of ethics. One must develop one’s own, and apparently, for many, that task has proven very weighty.

      “The greatest good for the greatest number” is meaningless if one has no conception of “good”. As we are learning, truthfulness and virtues of honesty and integrity are of primary importance, and are senior to more “flashy” abilities. That I have seen, it is possible to develop what I refer to as “physical” abilities as a thetan, to go exterior, for example, and still miss the point of it all that virtues of personality and abilities of love and compassion are far senior to the “physical” ability to change location in space.

      • I should add that Scn contains many methods and processes to assist and encourage an individual to develop and unfold and learn to practically apply their own personally created ethics.

      • No and Yes per LRH.

        you stated “The reason for any lie is the inadmissibility of truth. The pressure put upon a Scn to “be perfect” and to “be an example” is considerable.

        Your first sentence “The reason for any lie is the inadmissibility of truth.”

        Per LRH this is not true. LRH states if somebody is lying to you, then they are trying to control you. I’m sure somebody here can name the reference. Look that over. the times you lied to another, or another, or a group lied to you. What were they doing? Trying to control your thoughts, effort, emotion. They or you lying were trying to get another to follow you or not follow you. Demo it out. Check it out.

        The great expansion of scientology is a lie, why? Why tell the lie, why make up stats?

        Your second sentence – “The pressure put upon a Scn to “be perfect” and to “be an example” is considerable.” Why is there such pressure? Expansion? Set an example? PR reasons? Image reasons?

        LRH says never tell lies in PR.

        • GAT, Super Power, IAS donations, GAT II, Six month checks on OT7, F/N 3 swings, and on and on. All lies. All told to CONTROLL.

          • raise your hands please. How many of you lurkers here have had a session or auditing action in the PT COS only to have to write a success story and make it good sounding although it sucked and you couldn’t wait to get out of there. A SS is a PR thing you know. But you had to “make believe” just to end the action so you go home and get relief. Now I’m talking present time auditing in the COS. But realize if you are new to this game, you have nothing to compare real auditing from the past to the present auditing, you don’t know real auditing. You only read about it in the books on your basics courses. Thus lies in PR.

            • so you sort of lied on your success story, just to end the action and get back home to relax. Thus, you lied, and controlled the group. Pretty cool.

              • now that I think about it, scales thing, lying is the lowest form of creation. Just off the head here, with my thoughts. Please verify if I am wrong.

        • Surely someone running Standard Opening Procedure (good, positive, control) is not lying by giving commands. The overall context of the central point LRH was addressing (in whatever) has to be considered. He establishes the difference between good control and bad control very early on, and assumes one is familiar with that distinction. I’m sure it’s possible to temporarily “bad-control” (divert, or mind-f**k) someone with a lie, but what happens when the lie is uncovered? And what in any situation is such that “You cannot be handled by the truth”?

        • I observed another kind of lying by Scientologists, going back to the early 1970s – they would have rationalized it as “positive postulating”. So, for example today’s churchy Scientologists repeat the ridiculous fake stats about expansion etc because theywant it to come true, and they rationalize that “reality is agreement”, therefore if they get as many people as possible to believe it, it will come true.

          Of course they are actually quite nuts, because as Stephen Covey wrote, “Everything is created twice” – first in the mind (as a postulate), but then in reality by actually performing the necessary motions. Life is magic. To gain the correct end result, you have to perform the correct ritual.

          • Yeah, and I’m not sure lying is the correct ritual. Lying to oneself doesn’t sound good. It’s a question of ethics and integrity and truth.

  25. When I was at FOLO EUS Ron was constantly in communication with Molly Bornstein the CO. Telexes were coming almost every day from him and us to him.
    The GO was upstairs in the Hotel Martinique were NY Org was and FOLO EUS.

    His constant involvement in affairs of money stats from all orgs leaves my mind thinking it an impossibility that he was not at the same time highly involved with the GO who were upstairs.
    The fate of the future of Scientology hung in the balance. How could Ron not have been involved?

    Gotta go, thank you for your thoughts:-)

    • I remember when I first became a messenger. I had completed my SO EPF and was routed to the missionaire unit. While doing my CMO EPF and waiting for my messenger CSW to be approved. I was talking to Richard Franklyn, who was in Ops Bureau. We were talking about writting letters to LRH. I told him that I had been writting LRH letters from the age of 9 and was very proud of my responces that I had gotten. So proud infact that I had brought them with me when I joined the Sea ORG.

      At that time I had no idea that LRH had not responded to all his letters and that there was a unit that was assigned to this exact task. For me This did not sway my opinion of LRH. but I started to understand what it took to keep the machine rolling along.

      I know for a fact that most of the messenger orders were not “written” by LRH they were written for him and approved by him.

      Mby the policy that would apply broadly here would be what an executive wants on his lines?

      • do you realize this statement violates “source”. Interesting, huh. And I believe you, thus I am free from the CO$.

        “I know for a fact that most of the messenger orders were not “written” by LRH they were written for him and approved by him.”

  26. Tom Gallagher

    As far as David Micavige is concerned:

    It truly sucks to be a sawed-off, full-blown, stage four,. dramatizing criminal psychotic. In a word, POB is a sociopath.

    And now world media is focused on the cause of the problem: POB.

    You know what Mike Rinder? You’re right. It really sucks to be Miscavige, the lunatic, fully exposed.

    By the way, great TV stuff. The copper rods are probably reaching their melt-point of 1,983 degrees Fahrenheit.

    Marty, Mike and crew: Carry on!

  27. Jane Kember father was in South African Intelligence and a big
    influence of G.O. Orders. Those were Blue on Blue Orders all G.O.Staff had to be passed on and follow. B- 1 G.O. orders were known only to B-1 staff
    I can guess that TR-L can be found there but I wasnt in B-1 so I am not sure .
    I do know that all Finance Bureau Gaurdian Orders GFO’s were all designed
    to make Herbie Parkhouse RICH. Nothing else.
    Most Jane Kember Programs revolved around CRIMEN INJURIA to people deemed an enemy of Scientology. Thusly Kember programs created never ending attack handlings.
    To repair an area infected by Jane Kember you had to cancel the all Kember Programs and get in LRH programs and get in LRH Childrens programs.
    The orgs under siege will go to peace and harmony,expanding prospering
    and flourishing. Leave Jane Kember programs in, that area died and Scientology would be in the lowest repute if ever spoken about.

  28. There is a reason why LRH programs worked
    especially Childrens Programs written by LRH

  29. As a never-have-been-never-will-be-a-Scientologist, it’s clear that great harm is presently being done to many of the people who consider this to be their religion. And also clear that there were some ideas that L. Ron Hubbard may have borrowed from other religions.

    To an outsider, this is a self-help pyramid scheme that imposes a rigid structure on concepts borrowed from those other religions, like confession, absolution, the concept of unconditional love (no, I guess there’s not too much of that floating around in Scientology these days, by the sound of it), excommunication, reincarnation, salvation, self-mastery, out-of-body experiences, penance, etc.

    Someone even appropriated the Christian crucifix to stick on the tops of buildings, although as far as I can tell, Scientology has nothing to do with Christianity. But clearly few, if any, of the people on these forums address the issue of L. Ron Hubbard’s own reported corruption, lies, violence, addictions, greed, emotional imbalances and willingness to exploit and manipulate people en-mass. So Muscavige’s ravages against the system of self-help seem consistent with Hubbard’s own fundamental dishonesty about what he was doing and why.

    I suppose there’s a need to justify the long-term involvement that some of these ex-members have had by holding the position that whatever L. Ron Hubbard’s personal flaws may have been, that he still devised a system that works well to help some people.

    From the outside perspective, it seems very odd that the people who literally escaped and suffered greatly are still helping to perpetuate a fundamentally unsound system. It’s as though having been manipulated, abused, terrorized and excommunicated by the Catholic church, ex-members would still insist that the church itself was doing marvelous work and deserved to be supported.

    The truth of people is that we aren’t generally either all good or bad, but both, in ways that are very hard to judge accurately from within the limited perspective of a single lifetime. This is as true of Scientologists as any other person. And we are united by our common humanity, which is much more important than dogmas or doctrines, rituals or ultimately beliefs, but I’m not sure how one can excoriate Muscavige, dreadful, destructive and demented as he is, without looking back at L. Ron Hubbard and wonder how he set the tone for such corruption to evolve, so quickly and still have any faith in the supposed wisdom of his methods.

    The only thing Hubbard seemed to do that was different from what can be found by directly studying other systems of spiritual and personal growth was that he stated or implied a guarantee that if you kept buying “classes” in which people learn to spout what sounds like utter nonsense from the outside, you will be rewarded by the institution itself, instead of having to wait until you die to figure out how successful you were or were not in the eyes of some deity or in the light of some atmosphere of understanding in which it isn’t possible to lie to oneself or anyone else.

    • Wow. Excellent post. An important perspective to consider.

      Thank you.

    • Jamie, read the blog and the comments. No-one is claiming “the church is doing good work”. Quite the opposite, as you would know if you read this blog much at all. People are saying their experience with the philosophy and the therapeutic applications of it have been positive, but that the organizations have been corrupted and are causing harm.

      Remember the Spanish Inquisition? The burning of “witches”? Do you really think that was a fulfillment of Christ’s teachings? I don’t. The Christian churches of that time and place had been corrupted and were causing harm. So it is today with the Scientology organizations. There is nothing wrong with the basic philosophy. It is good and helpful.
      That’s the long and the short of it.

      • Thanks for your response. I have read the blog and the responses. My basic point calls into question the extent to which one can “love the sinner but condemn the sin” in continuing to treat Mr. Hubbard as a visionary whose example is worth following.

        I certainly am aware of the countless abuses of various religious systems. And no, they in no way represent the truths contained in the essential teachings of Christ, Budda, Mohammed, Zarathustra, Guru Nanak Dev (Sikhism), Hinduism, Taosim, Jainism, Shinto or any of the other “fingers pointing to the moon” that can lead us back to a knowledge of our larger spiritual existence, which it appears we excel at forgetting amid the distractions of physical life.

        But in extolling Mr. Hubbard while excoriating David Miscavidge, it seems to me that there is an inherent contradiction. Miscavidge is the creature of Hubbard, his heir, and Hubbard’s assigned tool whom Hubbard used in his own withdrawal from facing the consequences of his actions.

        I’m deeply impressed by the passion with which former, or independent, Scientologists regard their earlier benefits derived from Hubbard’s organization of ideas designed to benefit humanity. And additionally profoundly impressed by their great courage in leaving the nightmare that Miscavige has created for so many innocent people who simply wanted to better themselves.

        I’m also grateful for their courage in taking a public stand against the abuse, despite the unbelievable vindictiveness of Miscavige’s punitive retaliations. Many of us face lesser, or different, versions of this type of manipulation of either ourselves or those we love and so the many public “defectors” are an inspiration to more of us that just present or former Scientologists. I speak from personal experience with having a family member who was in a cult for twenty years and who died still within it (of old age, not abuse). It was traumatizing, even though there was no policy of excommunication (a clever survival method to keep communication open but still maintain control – much smarter than the “disconnection” policy).

        But maybe there’s room for a different branch of Scientology, with a different name, to emerge, in which the wheat is separated from the chaff (exclusionary Scientology-specific jargon included) with regards to Hubbard’s teachings.

        Perhaps some ex-members can simply make their own modifications or editings to Hubbard’s work, using what has been most helpful to them and eliminating some of the elements that lead to economic exploitation (the pyramid-scheme aspect of the classes).

        There are undoubtedly some ex-members or “independents” who are less abusive than either Hubbard or Miscavige who could salvage what works from the Scientology system and be the ones who really help without hurting.

        Best wishes to all of you who found the strength to end the abuse and have your say. Thank you, and may you continue to educate and liberate as many people as possible!

        • Changing the name wouldn’t help – it could, to the contrary, make things even worse.
          You would need to know and understand Scientology in order to see this.

    • @Jaimie, I believe Ron to be a little bit of everything people have said about him. Some of his system is brilliant, some is dangerous.

      Many posts here have said, regarding Ron’s uncovered faults, that he was only human, not perfect etc.

      But when it comes to defining those faults or acknowledging those faults there is not one revealed fault. Its just:he was human.

      I have now read many sources who were with Ron, or who went into hyper drive to shread and destroy any evidence of Ron’s involvement with GO operations similar to Miscaviges.

      I believe, the more the Independents are out in the real world, they will accept the good and bad regarding Ron. And when they realize that all great realizations of life they have had by using Ron’s good side (benevolent philosophy) can’t be taken away by the knowledge that Ron instituted into the Scientology ethos the very militarism they themselves are fighting.

      The evidence is out there. Truth is not sentimental.

      If Ron stuck to his guns reagarding “My Philosophy” and used love to fight his enemies. This situation maybnot even be here.

      Ghandi’s enemies were real and far more dangerous then the FBI etc.

      Yet, with the demonstration of real spiritual principles his legacy to the world has crowned him with greatness.

      I cannot say the same for the Old Man. His lagacy is quite different.

      He should of stuck to spiritual principles and not militarism.

    • Jamie, there is some spark of intellect that shines through your post, but I definitely disagree with you on comparing Ron Hubbard to Miscavige. First of all Ron Hubbard is gone so whatever was or wasn’t his problems and shortcomings there is no point of discussing now. Miscavige and his regime is something that exists today and is causing harm to people and the movement itself in present time. Second, Scientology “applied religious philosophy” and anything else useful that Ron Hubbard produced has never and never will be about Ron Hubbard himself. I am myself a very educated person, and before discovering Scientology I have sorted through many works on Eastern Philosophy, psychology, hypnosis, New Age, and so on. I also took engineering physics, calculus, computer programming, and accounting at a university. I observed and wrote a lot trying to put things together and come up with some truths very much like Ron Hubbard did but on a much lesser gradient. I wanted to know, and I was searching.

      Finding Scientology for me was first and foremost a recognition of the fact that somebody already did the work and mapped the route by which you could ascend to higher levels of ability, awareness, and understanding. Most importantly there were specific practical and precise exercises and procedures (i.e. drills and auditing) through which you could get specific results. I do not know of any other field where this is the case.

      Plus, Ron Hubbard didn’t just put it all together from other works. There are many original things that I have never heard of before like the ARC triangle (affinity-reality-communication and their interrelationship), KRC triangle (knowledge-responsibility-control), study methodology and the exact phenomena of missunderstood words, deep understanding of a human as a spiritual being, understanding and methodology of creating groups, and so on. I also have never seen an exact and very scientific description of thought and memory recordings, their behavior and energy patterns. I have never heard of anybody else using a device (e-meter) for the purpose of measuring the intensity memory recordings (mental mass) in therapy. There is lots and lots of very useful knowledge that can be applied everywhere you look: mental therapy, corporate, universities, government (preferably a good one), interpersonal relationships… and so on. This is what Scientology is all about. This is what it has always meant to be. No one was supposed to have a monopoly on the discoveries of Ron Hubbard and terrorise everyone else on its basis. Ron even writes so himself I believe more than once.

      The works of Ron should not be lost on the world because of a few madmen running the show at the Church of Scientology, and it has always been my hope that more people learn of those works and the applications of Scientology. It truly should belong to anyone who wishes to reach for it. And that I believe is the one big purpose of this blog – to separate the subject from the institution so that more people can explore the benefits of Ron Hubbard’s works without having to deal with insanities of the present day Church.

  30. Jean-François Genest

    Great news segment. Thank you for posting.
    Q = Do these air on TV in the USA, or are they internet only segments?

  31. I am not and have never been a member of Scientology. I have also never received any publications. My knowledge comes directly from what I have read over the years about celebrities and Scientology. So, not much. However, even from the not-so-much stuff I have read, the tactics of recruiting and keeping and then dismissing members by the church fits the characteristics of the phases of a sociopaths seduction.

    A sociopath is out for himself and abuses society and everyone and everything in it to win what it’s after: money, fame, power, reputation, and above all, control.

    Sociopath Hook: a sociopath targets his victim based on his/her weaknesses. Understanding a person’s weaknesses helps the sociopath to fake understanding and sympathy. They say things like, “Oh, I understand why you did such and such. I have been there, too.” This lends to trust from their victim.
    Scientology Hook: One woman in a blog mentioned being given a personality test by the church prior to being a member. (Of course! How else would the church know exactly what to say in order to convince them the church cares?)

    Sociopath Adoration: a sociopath convinces his victim that they are equals and soul mates and were made for each other. The sociopath praises and loves everything about his victim (or so he claims) and that no one understands sociopath the way his victim understands him.
    Scientology Adoration: Scientology convinces members that they will reach enlightenment and all can reach a God-like existence all they have to do is be just like everyone else and follow everything the church dictates. (Seems easy enough. How much money do I need to give you?)

    Sociopath Praise and Devalue: a sociopath oscillates between devaluing his victim and praising his victim. This causes great confusion and makes the victim question his/her own reality. Sociopaths gaslight their victims and and enjoy seeing their victims confused about how they feel emotionally. This generates a co-dependent relationship, a perpetual and never-ending cycle of really awesome highs and really shitty lows.
    Scientology Praise and Devalue: as long as a member adheres to all the rules of the church, the church encourages and rewards its members. Once a member starts asking questions and resisting certain church requirements, the church finds fault in the member using the member’s weaknesses to cause confusion and dependency. The member either conforms and finds peace and acceptance again or the member remains a target of abuse and hate. (The only other option is to completely denounce the church and escape.)

    Sociopath Discard: sociopaths grow tired of their victims once their victims are exhausted of all value. The sociopath just says one day, “I’m moving on from you. I never loved you or cared about you, really. You mean nothing to me.”
    Scientology Discard: when a member leaves or denounces the church, the church responds defensively. Why? Because the ex-member is telling the truth about the church’s abuse or unethical practices, something the church cannot see or accept. The church practices the technique of DARVO: Deny abuse, Attack, Reverse the role of Victim and Offender. The church becomes the victim. (Poor church.)

    I am sure there are more sinister comparisons that actual members could use, but these are the basics I have gleaned from just the few but comprehensive articles I have read about Scientology. A true religion doesn’t scare people or berate people into conforming. That’s abuse. Scientology scares me. Really scares me.

    With sincereness,
    Paula

  32. And there are many other sociopath comparisons beyond the stages of seduction that Scientology fits. Sociopaths NEED to isolate their victims from all outside connections. Otherwise, outside connections may be able to wakeup the victim and make them aware of the abuse. Kind of like the Scientology stance that the beliefs of other non-Scientologists are not valid and like the tactic the church uses to encourage (or force) members to break ties with family members who are not members/believers. Uuugghhh!

    • Paula, no organization is sociopathic. Only individuals are. I’m sure cases abound in which organizations became overrun with anti-social, sociopathic personalities, but even in a suppressive group like the Nazi S.S., there were individuals who were not themselves sociopathic, but acting under the influence of real sociopaths in the group.

      This is true of the current corporate church of Scientology. The greatest percentage of individuals one finds there, are normal, honest, social personalities. Of those, a small portion are in direct contact with true sociopaths inside the group, and are operating in a crippled, illogical manner, often taking on the evil characteristics of the true source of the suppression inside the group.

      The actual sociopaths are very few in number. Per Hubbard, they only make up 2.5% of any group, though they can cause effects far outside their immediate zone of influence – especially if they’re in a command and control position.

      Lastly, I want to stress to you that there is a very large difference between the religion of Scientology, and the culture within the organization. There’s even a difference between the the culture of the ecclesiastical body, and that of its parishioners, though they often share much of the same reality.

      Don’t be afraid of Scientology itself. It’s an applied religious philosophy that has helped a great many people to improve their lives and their spiritual health. There’s quite a lot to recommend it. I suggest picking up a copy of Marty Rathbun’s new book, “What Is Wrong With Scientology”. Just click on the image near the top of this page to order one. It’s a quick read, and will answer just about every conceivable question you could have about the philosophy, its adherents, the leadership, history, origins, and many other things, including how the organization got into the disastrous state it’s in today.

      • Thanks. I’ll read the book. But I disagree that an organization can’t be categorized as being sociopathic. Even the science behind diagnosing individuals is not perfected, so sociopatholgy is open to debate. I’m just making an observation and a connection that makes sense to me.

        • I’d say that if the leadership is sociopathic, then indeed the organization can be characterized as sociopathic.

          The problem with the Church of Scientology is that it has BECOME sociopathic, by taking what started out as positive and beneifical approaches, and reversing them, turned them into negative and harmful ones.

          For example, there is nothing wrong with using a “personality test” to guage areas of a person’s life which might need improvement. But when the focus becomes more on how much money can be extracted from the individual, instead of how or where they can be helped … then it becomes harmful and negative.

          There is nothing wrong with encouraging the reaching for personal enlightenment and a feeling of self-worth, but when it turns into “being just like everyone else” or “following the pack”, then it gets reversed. And this is what the current Church of Scientology does. The philosophy of Scientology, in fact, is supposed to be about expressing and discovering ones inviduality and embracing true self-determination in life. But the current Church enforces just the opposite.

          So yes, the Church of Scientology has become sociopathic. And it has been driven by the current sociopathy of it’s leader David Miscavige.

        • When an organization or a country has an oppressive leadership, caracterized a.o. by a culture of fear, secret services terrorizing people, unhumanly practices (like in North Korea, Syrie, to name a few), then the term used is ‘totalitarian’. The leader may be a sociopath (not necessarily), but lots of employees and citizens will be PTS. I thank the current state of the Church of Scientology fits this description completely.

      • Thanks. I’ll definitely consider reading the book. However, I disagree with your stance that an organization can’t be categorized as sociopathic. There is absolutely zero scientifically based evidence that states only people can be sociopaths. That’s just where the science meets the road today, so to say. We categorize organizations and corporations as being good or bad, so why not sociopathic? Besides, the connections and similarities jumped out at me making it nearly impossible not to consider and share. Just an observation. :)

        • You have a point, Paula. It’s really just a matter of semantics. There are certainly suppressive groups. Look at what Miscavige’s group has become!

        • I disagree with your stance that an organization can’t be categorized as sociopathic. There is absolutely zero scientifically based evidence that states only people can be sociopaths.

          Not true, Paula. Hubbard researched anti-social/sociopathic/suppressive/psychotic personalities for over half a century, and ‘peeled the onion’ on what makes them tick. He documented those scientific studies within the body of his work, and should you read it, you’ll see that he indeed discovered the source of those behaviors, and even developed practical therapies to alleviate those conditions.

          You could just walk into any church of Scientology and take one of their introductory courses. It would cost you about fifty dollars and would last about a week. You’d have time enough to observe that the organization itself dramatizes some degree of nuttiness, but take a good look. You’d observe that that nuttiness is coming from individuals, and not even all of them.

          Now, I don’t think you’ll really do that, but the point is, you’re going to find a range of sanity vs insanity in any group. Even in one that you’d categorize as ‘sociopathic’. Everyone falls somewhere on that scale.

          But read Marty’s book. He’s got a section in there that deals with this specific topic, and he quotes studies from lots of sources besides Hubbard. I think it’ll answer some questions for you.

          • Again, there is no scientific proof. Hubbard isn’t the only person doing studies on sicuopathol

          • Again, there is no scientific proof, science grows every day, and Hubbard isn’t exactly someone I would call an expert in the field. Also, I am positive that the original intent and foundation of Scientology has been distorted by its leader in recent decades. That’s unfortunate. But, as Scientology stands today in the eyes of people like me, people on the outside looking in, it’s not a sympathetic religion. It’s leaders lie, lie, lie. It’s sad. I feel for the members who have gained from its teachings. I do. But there is a clear need to shed the current leadership if Scientology expects people to do anything but snicker when they here the word.

        • Ronnie, I get where you’re coming from, but-

          I have to go predominately with Paula on this issue.

          Per LRH, there can indeed be “suppressive groups” as well as “suppressive individuals”. It’s right there in his basic Ethics writings.

          I think the issue here is one of relative degrees.

          Is North Korea a “sociopathic country”? Yes, in a sense it is. But it is not sociopathic from the grassroots up – it has been steered towards sociopathy from the top down, by sociopathic leaders who institutuionalized sociopathic attitudes and policies. In fact we don’t yet know for a fact, that the 3rd generation Kim, the new current leader, is himself a sociopath. Time will tell. If he is not he will slightly ameliorate the “sociopathy” of the country and it’s behavior. He can’t do it very quickly at all, or he will be deposed.

          At this time, the sociopathy of David Miscavige and his cronies have seeped down through the established Scientology organizations and Churches.

          Presumably the 12 social and 12 antisocial characteristics can be applied to an organization or group just as to an individual, to judge it’s activities and goals.

          But it does not mean a suppressive organization or group is comprised entirely of SPs. Many of the members are likely to be social personalities.
          Some may have been duped into being members, some may simply be trapped there as the North Koreans are trapped in their country; or the character of the organization may have changed over time, as has happened with the Church of Scientology, which has been shifted from having predominately social characteristics to having predominately antisocial ones. Of course in this case, the social personalities eventually leave in increasing numbers, physically or in spirit.

          • I just love how we can discuss application of the tech here and be open to new viewpoints.

          • Li'll bit of stuff

            All correct views,IMHO, Valkov.
            The coin is a dimension point with at least 3 images
            projected. ie. front, back and yes, the edge too!
            What about the internal core, as you also ask?

        • Li'll bit of stuff

          Paula, it may interest you to know that Hubbard
          actually shared and stated your exact view, all
          those many years ago. (sorry, I don’t have the
          original ref. to hand.) In fact, you could be quite
          amazed, to see just how prolific and accurate
          his summations, on life and situations, past,
          present and future are written up for digestion
          by the likes of thee & me.
          Thanks for the view,
          Calvin B. Duffield.
          Durban, South Africa

          • Calvin, I purchased the book published by Mark Rathbun and will probably read other Scientology-related books following this reading. Thanks for your reply to my comment. I’m definitely intrigued by the passion that comes through in the comments on this blog. Thanks! Paula :)

            • Li'll bit of stuff

              Thanks, Paula.When suppressive and / or oppressive
              influences are alleviated from a person,( ie through
              genuine, standard auditing), they automatically regain
              a tremendous resurgence in their “passion” for life,
              and, yes, if you stick around for the bumpy ride, the
              “passion” will definitely get rubbed off onto you.
              Guaranteed!
              Calvin.

  33. So…TC is…”saddened and shocked’ at being blindsided by the actress’ …guess he now knows how Nicole Kidman feels…Karma, do they talk about karma at COS Marty?

  34. Theo Sismanides

    Mike great interview, I am happy you are there like Marty is! Isn’t this something? A two barreled shot gun! Spontaneous, alive, truthful and so up tone! Good to see you In Games Mike!!!!! Keep it up!

    • ++ You saw that in Greece?! Amazing!

      Q: And they did this with the purpose of shutting you up?
      A: Yes. In their minds!

      I really thought that was a great moment in the very well done interview. It was all very genuine, but especially that “In their minds!” Really interesting and a ground-swell change that Marty and Mike seem to be the new face of Scn to the world.

  35. Good luck Mike. On a separate note, I’ve just read:
    HCOB 28 DECEMBER 1961
    E-METER ELECTRODES
    A DISSERTATION ON SOUP CANS
    And I was wondering if anyone knew what metal the modern cans were made with. If you know, please contact me at my facebook page or answer me here, thanks.

    • “modern cans” as in commercial food packing cans or do you mean the current e-meter electrodes shipped with Co$ E-Meters ?

      The latter are Nickel-plated steel, AFAIK.

      • Mike, I used the closed top cans in 04′, kind of like the ones featured here: http://www.scientology-cult.com/mark-viii-emeter-revealed.html.
        The reason i bring it up is because:

        1. The closed top cans reportedly cause your hands to overheat, so if there’s one thing wrong with them there may be more.

        2. I don’t know my metals that well so I can’t say if those cans were aluminum, or had some aluminum alloyed into them, or what kind of metal they were, but they felt different (a lot smoother to the touch) than the previous version of the cans with the alligator clip. The new can’s metal has a different look to it too if I remember right.

        Like I said, I don’t know, it’s just a query. Either way, LRH laid out a test in that HCOB I mentioned where you could see if cans read on mental mass or if they’re just showing body reactions, because of the wrong metal. I don’t have a meter with me, someone should test that out if it’s not known what metal is used. Because people used the wrong cans for years and it went unnoticed, per that HCOB.

      • Also a soup can is tin, not nickel and steel.

      • Mike, hopefully you’ll see this. Where did you get the info on nickel plated cans? Thanks.

  36. Just watched the Rock Center piece. It was good. It even got a little bit into the OT stuff but didn’t mention Xenu probably because of legal threats against NBC. I suppose millions of people will find that out anyways when they start Googling Operating Thetan.

    I can imagine Miscavige is smashing stuff right now at HQ.

  37. Tony Dephillips

    Great shows Marty, Mike, Janella and others involved.
    I’m finally glad some of the major networks are getting it right.
    You’d have to be brain dead to think this was good for the cult.
    This was a media ass woopin for the cult.

  38. Mike & Marty, you were both likeable and informative tonight on NBC Rock Center. I tried to watch as someone who isn’t informed. I believe viewers would come away rather confused about who to believe. You two or the church with all its’ denials.

    Until the end, when the church managed to shoot themselves in the foot…again. Bryan & Kate Snow outlined how much pressure they got to not air the piece, and went into detail. For anyone watching, that should have tipped the balance in your favor. Most people automatically distrust secrecy from large organizations…so right there viewers would be thinking…”wait, why are they working so hard to stop this airing if they’ve nothing to hide? They’re guilty alright. Those 2 guys are telling the truth.”

    Well done guys. Well done.

    • Tony Dephillips

      I disagree that it was close.
      Just the squirrel buster footage would make me feel the cult was insane.

      • I’m glad to hear that. Some people I’ve spoken to said the Squirrel Buster footage was so insane they couldn’t believe it was real. They questioned why a secret organization would out themselves by wearing such ridiculously obvious t-shirts with Marty’s face; they thought it was a set-up.

        So maybe it’d be more accurate to say that the clincher for people was the full press campaign by the church to silence the program. There are still people out there who pay no attention to celebrity news, and really have no clue about Scientology, so that program was their first taste. Those were the people whose reactions I was gauging.

        But I hope most people were like you Tony, and saw the truth right away. Thanks for posting your reaction.

  39. It’s pathetic how C of S inc. always resorts to Ad hominem attacks against critics. Characterizing Mike as “untrustworthy, unreliable and biased” is the lowest form of debate response. It is usually only used as a last resort when one can no longer defend one’s position on an issue.

    Mike is clearly reporting unassailable facts – yet when the church is asked, “How do you respond to that?” The best they can come up with is, “I’m rubber and you’re glue, whatever you say bounces off me and sticks to you!”

    This is childish in the extreme and reflects the arrested mentality of corporate scientology’s diminutive and immature leader, David Miscavige.

    Come on Dave, is that the best you’ve got for Mike? Why don’t you grow up an start facing your accusers yourself – like a man. Quit hiding behind lawyers, spokesman, and lackeys.

    I dare ya.

    • Yer nailin’ it, brother. To the freakin’ wall.

    • Li'll bit of stuff

      What??? How *#%^&@*DARE you, you $%*^)(&#^
      C*%$* S^*^&^%, AS-L&^%$G F*^%$*%g S*&^%**!!
      I’m the most POWERFUL, INTELLIGENT, OT f*&%$#g
      RULA on this whole F-^&%#*g planet!!!!!

      SKRRRICKK! (unscrew, unscrew, unscrew!) glug-glug
      glug-glug-glug- (swallow,swallow!) glug-glug-glug-glug!
      coff-coff- cccoffff-cofff-hack- hack- spllutter- splutter!

      Oh –yeah! (hic!) What waas I sayinGG? …againnn?

  40. I just saw the NBC Rock Center on TV. Marty and Mike, y’all did a great job.

    It seems to me that Scientology protects itself on the long term trend. In that Scientology standardly applied has resulted in more theta being freed and now that theta is steadily handling the entheta and a big entheta source known as David Miscavige. Sort of like taking out the garbage. He has been getting kind of smelly. Thanks Marty and Mike and others for taking out the garbage.

  41. I just watched the Rock Center show. They made it very clear at the start AND the end how much pressure they’ve been receiving from the cult not to air the show. The network didn’t cave. DM’s influence is lessening by the minute. People just aren’t afraid like they used to be.

    Mike and Marty, loved the final words by both of you. What a great way to end. No comeback by the cult either although I’m sure the dwarf’s over-sized head is spinning with fury.

    • “They made it very clear at the start AND the end how much pressure they’ve been receiving from the cult not to air the show. ” That was the best church “official” statement. Way to go Dave.

    • threefeetback

      Just keep tightening the nooses around Dave’s and Tom’s necks.

  42. Is there a new video I missed?
    Please could you provide a link?

  43. how do we get the major networks to review the lisa mcpherson case?

  44. One of the most significant events of my life in regards of LHR’s teachings is joining this blog (even in a less fortunate way).

    As far as I’m concerned, Marty, to me you are the new age Prometheus. Thank you for caring the flame!

  45. Marty, MikeR., Janella et al, awesome job!

    I am so keyed out! It has been a long time coming. Soon, hopefully, Miscavige and his enablers and cronies in the CoS will be a long time gone.

  46. Why do celebrity Scientologists flip out on camera whenever a reporter asks them if Scientology is a cult? They showed some footage on Rock Center of Anne Archer and Kirstie Alley getting extremely angry at a BBC reporter. A few years ago, there was the famous video of Tom Cruise getting angry with Matt Lauer on the Today show over psychiatry and I vaguely remember a couple of clips from the 90′s of Travolta flipping out too.

    A regular person would brush off such questions with a slight sarcastic laugh, dismissive smirk or “aw shucks” attitude. Aren’t these celebrities aware that these bursts of anger makes them look bad and ridiculous to non-Scientologists, hence making the church and themselves look bad?

    • Excellent question, which I tried to answer above, before you phrased it this way. In simple terms, the guy intuitively “gets the picture” but hasn’t hammered out all the details, all the nuts and bolts, and fit all the pieces together, so when challenged, gets very defensive (missed withold) about not knowing how to assemble the bits and pieces of his own life, and has to lie. Or he simply doesn’t know how to handle another truthfully. It really gets very deep, this subject of responsibility, and this subject of knowledge, and until one really wraps one’s arms around it, one does not have control over it all. When a celeb in a recent video replied “Do I look brainwashed to you?” The clarification by the reporter might have been, “Do the orders you obey to remain in conformity with the group, violate your own personal ethical prinicples, or principles you have prior commitments to?” If she says, “Never” she’s brainwashed. Many of us make compromises in our jobs, and go home to our religion at 5pm, but how does one make compromises with oneself, in one’s own religious beliefs?

    • Celebrities have missed with holds too.

  47. I believe I have the correct links below. This story moved me deeply. Although I doubt I will ever return to Scientology either as a reformed movement or in the Independant field, I am so happy that the Truth is becoming Revealed.
    Bravo to Marty and Mike.

    http://video.msnbc.msn.com/rock-center/48171079#48171079
    http://video.msnbc.msn.com/rock-center/48171147#48171147

  48. Great job, Marty and Mike! And to think that viewers are only seeing the tip of the iceberg. A look at Google news today shows there has likely been some serious clicking away by the DM automatons in order to get positive stories to the top of search results. Understandable, but quite lame.

  49. I’m not, nor have I ever been, a Scientologist, but I wanted to let you know that I follow your blog and I’m reading your book now, and I greatly appreciate the information and the help that you provide for your members and for the people who are trying to escape the ‘organization’. May you be blessed.

  50. Darn good show. I give credit to the anchors for stating that even up to one hour before airing they still received letters begging them not to air it. I remember when we had to write letters to the UK channel who did Sweeny’s show years ago. We were so duped. Now I feel stupid for writing the letters to try to get stations not to air “entheta…!” It was actually the truth.

    So thank you Marty, Mike and Janelle for shedding more disinfecting light. And to NBC for going ahead and doing what they do. There is sooooo much more where that came from. A whole season of TV if anyone wants it! :)

  51. After watching Rock Center, I had nightmares about the Scientology goons. The former Scientologists were very believable. The photographer who quit the “documentary” of the Squirrel Busters antagonizing Marty was also very believable. The fact that the Scientologists and Cruise’s lawyers tried to influence Rock Center to not broadcast the piece adds even more credence to the expose. It is horrifying that this type of behavior is going on in our country. Freedom of religion does not give anyone the right to impose on the rights of others. I can only imagine the abuse that Katie endured under the guise of devotion to this “religion.” Thank goodness that the former Scientologists have the wherewithal to speak out.

  52. Hey. I don’t have cable so I missed this program. Is there any other way to see it?

    • This is just a thought, but you might be able to see a replay on the NBC homepage. Some networks allow you to view online a program that you’ve missed.

  53. Great interview Mike!

    Of course any Scientologists watching it will know it is all too true. Then they will have to listen to the Church Management lie and deny. What does this communicate to them? That YOU are telling the truth and being honest and the Church is blatantly lying on national television. This is how / why people come into the Independent Movement.

  54. Just saw the video. Sensational job, M&M. It’s nice to see that NBC wasn’t cowered into delaying or cancelling the program. Marty, your final answer – the question – was perfect. The church is shown to be lying.

  55. I’ve been on the receiving end of some pretty nasty abuse from a person I later discovered was actually a scientologist … He scared the living crap out of me . Then I found out about his beliefs …

    I don’t some research and the tide soon turned .
    Thankfully he is perfectly quite ..

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