I am in the process of writing two books related to Scientology. It seems to me at this juncture of that process that they will probably be the last I write about Scientology. In keeping with the philosophy I follow in helping people on a one-to-one basis, I am writing with the purpose of assisting people in a fashion that does me out of a job. I think that modus operandi evolved out of recognition that somewhere along the road Scientology sowed its own seeds of destruction by inculcating a sort of unhealthy dependency. I consider what I do to be of the nature of outfitting and guiding folk to begin charting their own paths. Hopefully the books will relate all that I know to be workable in assisting people to move on up a little higher. The first book is about moving up from the ultimate trap that is Scientology for those stuck in it to one degree or another. The second book is about applying Hubbard’s workable discoveries in an integrated fashion that proofs one up against getting entrapped in the first place while seeking higher levels of awareness and consciousness.
The former is a recommended guide for moving on up beyond what Scientology has to offer. The latter is a recommended guide for integrating safe and sane application of that in Scientology that can be effective for those who wish to apply it. That is, an integral practice which by my own estimation is the only fashion by which Hubbard’s workable ideas will survive or serve salutary purposes for future generations.
All of my books to date, including the first future one introduced here, are directed at a very limited audience: Scientologists and potential users of Hubbard methods. As much as Scientologists and even former Scientologists would like to convince themselves otherwise, I know this to be a tiny minority in today’s society. The audience is so limited that writing books on the subject is not a means to make a living; in fact it is an impediment to doing so. The books are written out of a sense of obligation for imparting what I have learned through my own experiences of moving into, through, and beyond Scientology. It is my hope that somewhere down the line that the audience for the second book, the integral guide, might gain a wider audience; or, at least, serve to get some of Hubbard’s ideas into the conversation and mix in future integral mental and spiritual practices.
By necessity, the books are second in priority at the moment to making a living. When they might be completed will be determined by the time I can find for completing them. Notions of integrating, evolving and transcending are apparently not the most popular among former members; and most certainly, thinkers and researchers in integral practice don’t want to even hear the words ‘L. Ron Hubbard’, ‘Scientology’, or ‘Dianetics’. Resources and interest in the former church member community seem to be increasingly directed toward efforts to expose Scientology as a scam, expose and denigrate church leadership as the why for Scientology’s unworkable or destructive aspects, or even – of late – attempting to resurrect a weak imitation of the original.
In the interim so that nobody feels like a mystery is being dangled, virtually everything I have to publish can easily be derived from everything I have already written (in three books and nearly 1,100 blog posts; including its recommended reading). I don’t purport to have brilliant, original new ideas. I think all of them that are useful to moving to greater heights have already been better articulated by others. My ideas simply have to do with connecting dots that have long since been created by others. I have decided to write the books to organize those thoughts for the benefit of a) those ingrained by Scientology with the need for structure, construct and maps, b) the loud few, and those they confuse, who insist it is dangerous to read my words because ‘I don’t know where Marty is going’, and c) (and perhaps most importantly in the long term) future integral practitioners who could benefit others by incorporating workable ideas of L. Ron Hubbard into programs of human betterment.
The two future books I have mentioned will largely focus on integration, evolution and transcendence. The previous three books and the blog have focused more on identification, association and differentiation so as to possibly awaken folk to the necessity or wisdom of integrating, evolving, and transcending. I will continue to attempt to do that on the blog as time permits.
Moving On Up a Little Higher 
Way to not compromise on what you believe in Marty. That’s very commendable. While I may not agree with everything you have written on your blog, your basic premise that Scientologists will need to integrate in order to survive into the future is spot on. It’s an observable truth since the opposite – individuation – will only lead to inevitable death of the subject.
You are and have been projecting you case and mu’s about the subjects of Dianeticas and Scientology. You have pulled in many people who ave the same mutual out ruds on the sujects. LRH laid the route out. You failed to follow it. Instead you turned into a criminal just like dm. After too many ow;s piled up and various crimes you did commit, on others, you blew. You committed a felony as regards suppressing the info on the LISA MCPHERSON CASE. you BLEW AND ON THE advice FROM SOMEONE YOU LAID LOW UNTIL THE STATUE OF LIMITATIONS RAN OUT. Then YOU resurfaced WITH YOUR “SHORE STORIES”. You admitted to doing that on the video interview with the ST PETE TIMES.
You, “Jay” are a perfect demonstration of what the “critics” call a “Ronbot” and Anonymous calls a “Scilon”. I guess that’s why Marty let this vicious load of crap through. By the way your post is also extremely *OUT-TECH* – HCOB 2 Jan 1971 Illegal Auditing is just one reference, poop-head.
Michael A. Hobson
Independent Scientologist
An additional remark: Any trained auditor can see your post is an effort to reverse process Mark “Marty” Rathbun – a practice we expect to see from slimey fuckwit minions of OSA, not from true Scientologists(not TM).
Oh yes. You did great with your books and this blog. thanks very much, especially all the great commenting from people on your blog, and especially your 3rd book which is chock full of history details.
I hope you have a happy life ahead of you.
Jay, why are you so desperate? Did something ring through to you and you have to suppress it here publicly? All Marty is doing here is communication. It is up to the reader to make up their own mind with the information and throughts volunteered.
Calling names, judging prescribing your solutionto others is what you do. I have not seen this from Marty. You may agree, disagree or ponder what he has to say, but your need to attack him personally and call hime names just comes across like a desperate cry for help.
So what? ¿y qué? Get over it. Superarlo.
As if YOU are doing something productive on the whole matter. I want to see YOU, Jay, admit and portray your OWs in public for the world to see.
Ya know Jay, Marty didn’t have to do anything at all after he left the church. He’s gone to great lengths since to inform and assist. You can question his views, I don’t think you can question his heart. And Please don’t evaluate MY rudiments. This is a generality of magnitude. Doug
Well Jay, a good afternoon to tou too.There are millions of ideas.expriences, and paths out there. Mabe we should learn to grant them all beingness.I can see you are on a different path than Marty and some of the rest of us that post on this blog. I hope the path you are on is makiing you happy and fulfilled as a spiritual being. That is all we can wish for is it not?
Hey Jay…
Not sure what ‘coma’ you came out of…but your complete mis-assessment and labeling of what Marty has communicated over these years through this blog or books and whether or not it is 100% accurate or not to you has total validity and use for hundreds others who needed a fresh and stable viewpoint to operate from, as-is lies and move fwd in life as a result of the covert suppression, loss of personal integrity and betrayal by the total belief that LRH had laid out the ONLY road to TOTAL FREEDOM”. I can show you the dead bodies literally of those who have died too young; left their small kids unknowingly via the Church PR line “they dropped their body” bs. We; including your sorry soul ended up in a dead end street and abyss with no road out. Its called BETRAYAL. Marty may not be perfect but he has courage and as a result got back his personal integrity to stand his ground and repair and offer truth. If you in front me right now I would show you the ‘solid comm line’ process. Its very effective!!
The future is bright !!
You have accomplished MORE than your share to help folks out of the traps and connect the dots about the whole confused mess. For those who forgot, or don’t know: In the tech films, LRH himself narrates integration of Scientology into other professions – The Assists Tech Film is one example.
So yes, I want to see universities & college teach Dianetics and Scientology to their students, physiotherapists, psychologists, social workers, personal support workers, philosophers, etc. UTILIZE the knowledge and wisdom of Dn & Scn in their practice, research and studies.
• A lifetime ago for me, 50s & 60s, we would go to hospital emergency rooms and audit pain & trauma out of people smack in the middle of waiting rooms. Ziiip → As-ised! They would then go home in perfect shape. We did it at workplaces, schools, parks, all over the place. It can be done. Integration is the answer. The tape series “How to Present Scientology to the World” is chuck full of information about this. There’s a lecture titled: Start that practice! Several contributors on this blog HAVE DONE SO. Bravo!
Bravo Marty! Continue practicing and freeing people!
So Jay just where do you suggest that a public,a pc or staff member whose contract has expired get the tech and the good aspects that came from LRH? I came to the church in 1973 and left before doing my classV internship because of some differences of opinion by closly using the look don’t listen and what is true for you is what is valid. Has the present church stepped on its wanker you bet it has. Does a number of individuals have to get things straight with themselves and their creator probably so but what gives you the right to run off at the mouth without giving your back ground? You really disgusted me with your tirade.That is my opinion take it or leave it. on line with your original topic Marty I get the idea this is your swan song as far as writing materials that clarify topics of Scientology is concerned. I have always enjoyed your blog and your books are extremely easy to read. You don’t need me to tell you you have the right to do what ever when ever to do in the game of life. You have helped me in ways and it has been an eye opener so thank you. I suppose critics come with the territory but a harsh critic is really not necessary. You got that Jay, you are not necessary, but ARC to you all and compassion heres hoping you transcend past this point. Bill Dupree
Ha Ha Ha….”Jay” how is the life of an OSA troll these days?
@Jay: When you look at life through a keyhole, everything you see is keyhole shaped. So now we know not to expect from you any broader view of things than that.
@Marty: It’s too bad what you write doesn’t provide a decent living. For those of us in that limited audience, your work is enlightening, entertaining, fills in missing pieces right and left, and we want more of it. I’ll definitely buy and read your next two books. And I suspect, in spite of what you say, that you will come back to it sooner or later. Writing is in your blood, my friend.
I’m just glad to see someone who was at the top not stopping at that top, but growing out of it. So thanks for everything and I’m looking forward to your new books. 🙂
Marty, frankly, much of what you have written and expounded upon is simple common sense. The violent reaction by certain “independents” has been most informative.
I have closely watched what you have had to say on your practice of independent SCN, and never once have I seen you promote altering LRH auditing tech in any way.
If someone thinks that throwing in a datum or reference from another spiritual source here or there with a pc in an out of session conversation is “mixing practices” then they practice a rather obscene from of selective obnosis. LRH himself quoted or synthesized from other sources rather often.
The LRH of the 1950’s and early 60’s was not a rabidly dogmatic guy. Very much the opposite. Seems to me in that phase he simply wanted a workable tech to help people and damn any fanatical preisthood. That’s the LRH that i honor and admire. His ideas i find worthwile and usable.
If the the Tom M’s and Steve H’s of the world really wish to jump into the discard bin of history, they are entitled to do so, but i choose not to join them.
I for one am glad that Marty has chosen this path. Marty is a person who has a healthy respect for the precursors of modern scientology.
After all, if one were to truly master the subject of “Knowing How To Know”, wouldn’t one be well advised to study the Origin, Background and History of the subject? Wouldn’t it behoove one to understand the underlying theory of the subject? Certainly in order to master “Knowing How To Know”, one would need also to understand and practice the practical application of the subject to predicted result as well, no?
In consideration of the above, how would one wisely go about this monumental task? Would he relegate the importance of this undertaking to limiting it’s study to a single lifetime? Would he accept data presented as truth and fact even though uninspected? Would he practice the subject without regard to long term consequences?
I think not.
And neither would I.
Jay, do you consider yourself practicing even basic Scientology with your ARC-breaking communication here? Exactly, in what way do you feel you’re actually applying Scientology here? I fail to see any attempt to create affinity, reality, or communication to lead to understandings. How is your communication helpful to anybody here?
Perhaps the biggest issue I see in Scientology is so many Scientologists fail to practice BASIC Scientology. Though they are not alone. I see many Christians not practicing the WORKS of Christianity, either. There are hypocrite Scientologists and hypocrite Christians, alike … both failing to APPLY the practice of their own religion.
Marty, the following excerpt from a Course in Miracles lesson 169 may seem peculiar for me to post with regards to your blog. That noted, the instant I completed reading your post, I felt somewhat compelled to add this to the comments. Make of it what you will. – Monte
“All learning was already in His Mind, accomplished and complete. He recognized all that time holds, and gave it to all minds that each one might determine, from a point where time was ended, when it is released to revelation and eternity. We have repeated several times before that you but make a journey that is done.
“For oneness must be here. Whatever time the mind has set for revelation is entirely irrelevant to what must be a constant state, forever as it always was; forever to remain as it is now. We merely take the part assigned long since, and fully recognized as perfectly fulfilled by Him Who wrote salvation’s script in His Creator’s Name, and in the Name of His Creator’s Son.
“There is no need to further clarify what no one in the world can understand. When revelation of your oneness comes, it will be known and fully understood. Now we have work to do, for those in time can speak of things beyond, and listen to words which explain what is to come is past already. Yet what meaning can the words convey to those who count the hours still, and rise and work and go to sleep by them?
“Suffice it, then, that you have work to do to play your part. The ending must remain obscure to you until your part is done. It does not matter. For your part is still what all the rest depends on. As you take the role assigned to you, salvation comes a little nearer each uncertain heart that does not beat as yet in tune with God.”
I think you are remarkable and appreciate your efforts. I have been stuck in fear of Sn for 33 years. I am slowly emerging from my cocoon, mostly due to your efforts.
You aren’t projecting case? Laughter! This is one big SER FAC!!! The entire purpose of this post is to RESTIMULATE! And I know exactly WHO this is. You have a signature voice that has become all too recognizable!
Marty, I absolutely cannot wait for these books. As far as I am concerned they are a real needed and wanted. I feel that up to OT 1, and perhaps OT 2, LRH tech is quite acceptable (with a few exceptions I do not wish to mention here and now). I have absolutely no desire to run “body thetans”. On the other hand, when I listened to the Philadelphia Doctoral Course, there were processes which I found to be very beneficial. I am talking about SOP 8C, 8O. I believe the dwarf has robbed us of these processes.
I believe that your integration is the right way to go. I feel that a real OT need not follow somebody blindly, but rather has a personal responsibility to map out his own route to higher level of existence.
This one is for you! And the cast of characters that make your presence KNOWN!
Michael, you are absolutely correct about this jerk using illegal auditing. This is what the OSA guys and the MAAs are doing now as a matter of habit.
He is probably doing a Liability, and this is his not so effective blow.
“Not sure what ‘coma’ you came out of…”
Who said he came out? He still is in coma.
Marty has helped many of us realizing that to be free we really need to think for ourselves.
Scientology brings hopes. With the exception of a few non-scientologists and non-ex-scientologists, I may 100 per cent be sure everyone here, even the most bitter critics at least once felt, after some positive experience with scientology, a hope like never before. The organization tries to capitalize on this hope and does so. So do field auditors and others. Well, is it that keeping a reasonable ratio between fulfilment of the hopes and utilization of the power so generated for the organization is critical for survival for both the organization and the subject? Could it be that sticking to certain principles (e.g. to practice always for the benefit of the pc – or at least sometimes :)) might prevent the parasitic potential of the organization to cannibalize itself up from the inside? If the answer was “yes” for Marty, he probably would not make such announcement as he did. But OK, so he has decided that the subject itself is rooted too deeply in principles which determine its probable demise and decay, and he decided to take the valuable and go different path. He says he found for himself a way and that he would like to share it with us as an option for evaluation. I am curious to read what is next as the last book was enriching even though depressing for the idealistic picture we tend to make based on above mentioned hopes. The people here in majority are probably of much better character and abilities and ethics etc. and skills to observe than me, yet I very often could see an interesting phenomenon in people around scientology. It is identification. Hard core scilons tend to identificate the problems of their own with the problems of the organization after a while (they try to solve the problems of their lives and their minds by clearing the planet or by expansion of the church) and hard core anti-scilons do the same inverted. Then there is me (or us?), who still keep some hopes and try to have them fulfilled. And I (we?) perhaps tend to do both and add some more and mix it all together and then maybe calculate to solve our mental and spiritual uneasiness by putting our hopes in people like Marty or others who have been contributing here and on other “independent” sites. However, I hope that this is not only just the identification. That it comes from natural need for a guide, for a helping hand until you are able to stand on your own feet as I saw that sometimes the encouragements to walk despite feeling of broken legs tend not to work. So despite the apparent fact that Marty is not going to audit us the way some of us would expect, I will definitely hear what he has to say. Will it be of guiding assistance also for less advanced and not yet straightened egos?
I have no doubt of your ability to make a comfortable living delivering integrated spiritual technologies based on the best of Scientology and other spiritual practices. There are more people clamoring for these than we can easily keep up with.
There is so much demand that you will be busy for many, many years.
I wish you endless happy sunsets with your lovely wife and faithful dog after days of delivering services that help people transcend their limitations.
Gerhard ~~
★★★★★ FIVE STARS ★★★★★
Two thoughts, at some point you have to get the f*** over anger about the past and wrongs you feel others have done to you, or you will become twisted and resentful and miss the present and future. I ‘m not an ex-scientologist, but I had 20+ years of abuse of various other types to reconcile. I don’t mean you forget, but you can’t keep up anger without it turning on you.
Secondly, I sometimes struggle to keep up with the termonology here, so I was more amused than I should be by the “official” description “poopy-head”.
Beautifully stated David. +100
You may be right about your sales prospects for future books, but on the other hand the self-help movement has been going for a long time and many are curious about Scientology’s basis but won’t go near the church for various reasons.
You’re a good writer and good at explaining complex ideas. Good luck to you!
Marty- thank you for the first three books and the years of blog posts. I have always found your writing honest, forthright and enlightening. Admittedly it’s been a crash course in reading and discovery these last six months but I found you (and Mosey!) to be excellent guides.
Your recommended reading, references and frank discussions have helped me to set aside my anger, betrayal and loss. I will continue to move on up a little higher, on my own terms, for the first time in many decades. So again, thank you.
Dear jay,what’s this bull shit ,you said Marty pulled in people same out ruds on the subject,in what way??have you read any coming out story’s ?? if you can’t see the situation with what’s happening to the church,I think you are beyond help,your not meant to wake up,trying looking over the other side for a change, try looking at those things you don’t support ,All that’s going to do is give you a better understanding ,there is some value there,Stop being in fear,stop feeding the devil with fear ,no one has any authority over any one,Jay I still apply some workable tools RON gave me ,is that alright with you? I Help people Wake Up ,that need my help and want to move on a little higher.what is it do you want Marty to do that will help get some relief ? personally I think you want BLOOD,How dare you call your self a Scientologist, try showing some LOVE and Compassion for a change.
Marty and Mosey,
Thank you both for your generous contributions to this community you have built over the last four years. I’m so happy I got to know you and to participate in this mutually created adventure. It’s thrilling to contemplate how your lives might evolve going forward. You both have my utmost respect.
Love,
JM
Congratulations, Marty. I wish you and Mosey the best as you keep on moving…up, or…. forward 😉
Happy trails and I hope we can meet again.
Namaste.
Looking forward to that last Book Marty. Don’t rush it, though. Scientology in the 21st Century will be the most important one of the 5, in my opinion. If it takes 3-5-or 10 years, that fine. Its important. Thanks for all you have done.
Haha! Love this!
Agreed David!
Marty, that is indeed good news. I believe at this point you have just about said it all! 🙂 The only thing that keeps LRH’s discoveries away from the public IS the Church of Scientology. Let’s all move on up a litle higher shall we? 🙂
Heber Jentzsch set a great model of integration of Scientology with other faiths and professions. He granted beingness to all. I always enjoyed my discussions with him in the ITO course room before classes started, and at other few ad-lib moments.
I can’t thank you enough for having this blog and keeping it real. And I know the support you’ve been given by your awesome wife to do so.
Truth is what I needed to reverse the confusion I’d sunken into. And truth is what I needed to pull me up and out of the mess I’d become. I couldn’t find it anywhere else.
Whatever you have to do to be happy is a-okay with me. You deserve to be happy. I wish you happiness and fulfillment in all your endeavors.
OT IX and X: Marty’s bridge toward sanity and the real world.
Good to hear once more that whoever disagrees with the group’s agreement does so because he operates under the influence of MUs, O/Ws or other case stuff.
I have been reading and sometimes commending on only two blogs of two people who instead of taking advantage of their popularity to attract more followers, even clash with them in order to keep their intergrity. That action alone is to be commended, the way I see it, and it is also more ethical than to passively be agreeing so as not to exhibit some ‘out-ethics’ attitude before the eyes of other SCNists. Good SCN and any other means of freeing beings should at first respect one’s right to be self determined and to communicate, instead of just talking about it and hoping to become self determined if they submit thoroughly enough to the group.
I’m saying this without implying anything at all about whether I agree or not, and to what degree with what I read. My point is that it doesn’t matter. If I agree/disagree I can say it. But to police what the other says? He has the full right over his own universe, and I and you and others have the full right to communicate with those universes or not. If you think they ought to agree with the average agreement, then some freedom that is…
It has come to my attention that 99.9% of Scientologists that are PTS, are PTS to other Scientologists.
He is totally dramatizing the purpose of the reactive mind. To jump up and flash something from the past, to dominate someone in the present.
This is, a floating reactive mind out there. Once you get rid of your own, someone copies it and runs behind you as your new one.
This is why Scientologists are pts to Scientologists.
Marty, you are highly appreciated. My only (selfish) concern is that your unique voice may not be available here for as long as I would like it to be – a very long time.
What you wrote in the following is what I would call a highly responsible and pan-determined viewpoint:
“The books are written out of a sense of obligation for imparting what I have learned through my own experiences of moving into, through, and beyond Scientology. It is my hope that somewhere down the line that the audience for the second book, the integral guide, might gain a wider audience; or, at least, serve to get some of Hubbard’s ideas into the conversation and mix in future integral mental and spiritual practices.”
That says it all – everything I’ve hoped would occur for Scientology but hadn’t actually put together and articulated.
+ another 100
And I trust you are right that “There is so much demand that you will be busy for many, many years”.
Gail, what you wrote really struck me: I would say I was in a very similar state for about the same length of time. The ability to think rationally and speak honestly about LRH and his techniques should itself be a recognized process in my opinion as it is liberating and reduces emotional charge and thus raises awareness. Best wishes to you Gail on your journeys and thank you Marty and others.
I’ve found that periods of transcendence are available through the use of the “lowly’ locational/handling exhaustion process (as long as one does not attach any thoughts/judgements to what is viewed) and it is part of my spiritual practice.
Marty and Mosey are due some tribute songs. Since I can’t hold a tune, Elvis has agreed to render this one for me!
To love despite all provocations to do otherwise, is the sign of true greatness. LRH wrote that also. Do you remember Yvonne’s sweet voice on that album.
Attack attack attract, this is what brought down the church. Cutting theta lines, that’s what exploaded Sciemtology.
Who will be the first to become truly great!!
Hate, condemnation…..these are the terminal illnesses that declare a flat line on creating a sane planet.
Love, love is power, it is easy to hate.
And for those who choose hate.,, thank you . For you help us see how far we’ve come in our development. You help us to practice granting you being ness while you work things out.
Thank you very much
Jay, I think you are doing your amends project for Corporate Co$ and that is why the attack on Marty as well as spreading the Black PR that they told you to spread about him, meant to put seeds of doubt into his “followers’ minds”. The joke is on you. Marty doesn’t have followers like some guru. He is just helping people to get out and destimulate from the cult. And once that is done, he is helping them “know how to know” so that they never have to depend on any person or organized religion again, so they can steer their own boat. Face it, most, if not all of us who were or are still in Co$ gave up steering rights and became more and more robotic puppets and slaves to the main Suppressive. LRH warnred of this in the reference called “Robots” or some such name where he talks about people who are being suppressed will after enough time in that environment goes by, will become robots to the supressive to the point of not being able to act without orders from the suppressive to do this or do that. I see that happening right now in the church.
Marty I want to thank you for all that you’ve done and all you plan to do. Your next two books are vital to get out and I totally think they are necessary to continue the evolution of those of us who want to evolve. And I’m sorry that you can’t make a living at that and auditing. I for one hope, really really hope that you don’t give up this blog. It has helped so many people and has been so helpful to me and is like auditing out the third dynamic engram. Please keep on writing this blog. But I say this not as a “follower of Marty’s” but as a person seeking to take over my own boat and steer it myself to the stars and beyond. Thank you Marty!
Wow. Marty is a “criminal” because he doesn’t believe the way Jay believes. I’ve been a Scientology watcher for a number of years now, and it still blows my mind that people can come to think this way.
It’s fascinating stuff watching exes post ideas as they navigate the different stages of decompression, and I wish all who are at some point on that journey all the luck in the world……. including you, Jay. You see a post like this one and realize a person can be out of the church, yet very much still a prisoner.
Hopefully most here are to a point that a post like Jay’s no longer evokes resentment or anger. How can you possibly have disdain for someone so far gone?
Marty, I look forward to those books. I’m excited about where you’re going with this. You noted your previous books primarily benefit three groups; I would one of those in group c. I never formally affiliated with the COS but have been a long time student of Scientology philosophy and history, of spiritual practices in general, and of Ken Wilbur. I assume Wilbur has been a huge influence on you and your ideas of integrating Hubbard’s concepts into the wider matrix of comprehensive spiritual practices. You certainly are the one to pull this off and I wish you continued success.
I can’t wait! I think you have done wonderful things with your books, blog and practice and these future books make the future even brighter. Thank you for taking the time to help others when you could’ve just made your own way. I have found your blog incredibly helpful in my journey and now I am reading one of your books and that has been enlightening also. It’s funny all the emotions that come up while confronting this cycle and it’s been nice to follow your take on things. Anyway, I totally agree that we all have to make our own way and let go of our ingrained need for the structure that the Church provided; to our detriment as it turns out, but I do look forward to your future output. I hope you can make a living writing (journalism, fiction, other non-fiction) as you are very good at it.
Thank you again.
Hi Jay, take an honest look. Do you feel better know having said that? Does it solve anything? Does it help anybody? After all Marty is also you, don’t forget he is part of your dynamics and one of your goals is to be your dynamics – ALL of it. Do you really treat yourself like that? This is sad, only sad.
Sounds like a lot of fun in future! Wish you success and happiness 😀
Thank you Marty for taking the initiative to work on that second book!
Only by clearly identifying the poisonous elements of Scientology and by presenting the helpful safe elements Scientology can get rid of its horrible image in the long run.
Unfortunately it is not that easy as Scientologists often put it: The BAD is the organization and the GOOD is the original LRH applied philosophy (with its many rules and regulations).
It is hard for me to understand that even though free discussions take place outside the Church there are still many Scientologists who insist that only blindly following LRH with his KSW #1 directive is the right way. I believe that this is the root cause of harm (not only in Scientologolgy): The individual’s decision to switch off one’s common sense and to submit oneself to a dogmatic system of belief, obeying to whatever is ordered by the seniors.
I believe that it is vital that respectful communication continues between the different fractions of Scientologists. Breaking up comm and disconnecting when realizing that one has different views is not only part of the Churches’ culture but also part of the LRH concept: Stay with us and follow us 100% or get out!
It is said that parts of the Fugu fish taste delicious. But it is also known that it is quite risky to eat the fish. It may kill you.
Thank you to those who identified the poisonous parts of the fish so that the meal can be enjoyed.
FUGU (from Wikipedia)
„{{nihongo|Fugu|[[wikt: or [[; フグ|extra=literally “river pig”}} is the Japanese word for pufferfish and the dish prepared from it, normally species of genus Takifugu, Lagocephalus, or Sphoeroides, or porcupinefish of the genus Diodon. Fugu can be lethally poisonous due to its tetrodotoxin; therefore, it must be carefully prepared to remove toxic parts and to avoid contaminating the meat.[1]
The restaurant preparation of fugu is strictly controlled by law in Japan and several other countries, and only chefs who have qualified through rigorous training are allowed to deal with the fish.[1][2] Domestic preparation occasionally leads to accidental death.[2]
Fugu is served as sashimi and chirinabe.[2] Some consider the liver the tastiest part but it is also the most poisonous, and serving this organ in restaurants was banned in Japan in 1984.[2] Fugu has become one of the most celebrated and notorious dishes in Japanese cuisine.“
Jay, I apologize for putting it this way but you are so full of it.
I am trying to figure out where you are coming from. Although you throw a little jargon around, I don’t think that it is possible that you are really a Scientologist because, even if everything you said about Marty was true, you don’t seem to understand that according to L. Ron Hubbard about the biggest overt a person can commit is to make someone wrong for transgressions for which they have confessed and shown remorse. Does that make sense to you?
If you ARE a Scientologist, you would benefit from reading (or re-reading) the Auditor’s Code and demonstrating how it applies to YOU.
And if you think that this code only applies in session, please read (or re-read) the last sentence of that code:
“It [the Auditor’s Code] could be called the moral code of Scientology.” -LRH
Hey Marty,
I don’t agree with everything you have written and I don’t think that I am heading in EXACTLY the same direction you are with regards to Scientology. You know, who is? But I do agree with a hell of a lot of what you say, and I appreciate that it all comes from the heart. That’s my take on you. So, I encourage you to keep on communicating your thoughts, be they considered “dangerous” (unsettling?) by others or not.
Thank you for caring enough, Marty.
When I began to emerge, I also began to realise for myself just how small the corporate entity is as a group. It’s not that I actually had any figures that I had clung to (10m members or some such). It was more a vague feeling of threatening largeness/rocketride expansion (coming to a theatre near you) that disintegrated.
It has since dawned on me just how small that group is, how much smaller the group of interested indies/ex’s is, compared to the world. I cannot pretend I fully grasp the scope, but globally, the corporate entity is factually irrelevant.
I have since seen talks on TED given by mental health practitioners discussing the soul as if it existed. Who knows, in 10-20 years time they may have located and be treating the soul and be light years ahead of Scn. They are not as close-minded on the subject as purported by the corporate entity.
I wish for you that when you are done with your next two books, you will feel that you have achieved what you wanted to and that it was worthwhile. Perhaps the way of the Tao is the quiet way, and won’t get you rock star fame. But perhaps integral practitioners will pick up the ideas over the years and try them out. For me, the most revitalising approach to other subjects since ‘coming out’ has been to allow that they might be right, and to see them without the Scientology tint. And that is in no small part due to your work and this community. It suddenly dawned on me:
I know that I don’t know 🙂
Moonshot,
What’s wrong with “altering LRH technology”?
Don’t let yourself be pigeonholed into that corner by someone making accusations about, in essence, “out KSW.”
And LRH *was* rabidly dogmatic in the 1950s and 1960s, and that’s well documented. And that rabid dogmatism – despite the PR about “think for oneself” etc. – planted the seeds for what came later.
Save your energy. This is clearly not the statement of someone who is in danger of allowing him/herself to be pigeonholed anywhere. Your adjective ‘rabid’ is on the verge of ‘rabid’ itself.
Thank you, Marty. As a non scientologist I have enjoyed reading your blogs and certainly enjoy knowing you and Monique. You are missed here in IOB.
Hi Page. We miss you too.
…also the code of how to be civilized 🙂
Thanks for the insight into Moonshot. Glad to hear that.
In the comment, I was quoting, and disagreeing with, Moonshot, who wrote,
“The LRH of the 1950s and early 1960s was not a rabidly dogmatic guy.”
For a subject that was still in formation, LRH was very dogmatic in the 1950s and early 1960s, and there’s plenty of documentation to demonstrate that.
Hi Marty
I have only been aware of your blog since I watched “Scientology at War”, but I have enjoyed what I have read and my impression is that both you and the majority of people who respond on your blog are very genuine and remind me why I got involved with Scientology in the first place.
However I find my take on the whole Scientology scene quite different to anyone else that I have ever met. You see I am trying to GET BACK INTO Scientology. I was expelled 40 years ago but have never disconnected even when I have gone quite P.T.S. My last auditing action was an S&D on board “The Royal Scotsman” (later the Apollo) C.S.’ed by Ron. My item was Scientology and the last entry in my folder in Ron’s handwriting is “give the P.C. his item and get him out of the area”.
So here I sit still endeavouring to handle the CofS, and since I consider myself in a condition of power no way am I likely to disconnect. I have my own religion that for want of a better title is ChristianScientology and it is my humble opinion that it is only a matter of time before it goes ‘viral’. I am convinced that LOVE and UNDERSTANDING is the complete answer to the woes of mankind.
No more dogmatic than you are acting, methinks.
Thank you Marty for all you have done and are doing.
There is no way I would be in such good case shape as I am if I had continued in the direction I was going mid 2009. Amy’s book was an eye opener. All those that have come out in the open are treasures. Your assistance in keeping it all in perspective is MUCH appreciated. With that whole confusion sorting out for me, I have gained back my wins from the tech and am off and rolling in life once again.
Take a win ~ I am 🙂
The more we can each become more able and help one another the better life will be for all.
Cece
Marty, I was going to say also, that I agree you ought to be making a living on top of helping/writing. I’m sure you will get donations to hold you over so you can write but in the mean time I hope you let us know if you start writing for news papers again so we can watch and do what we can to support that 🙂
Cece
What an interesting story! Thank you for being here and sharing that! I am on the same page with you about 95% of the time. And Hubbard was on this page at one time also!
Theo shared this with me a couple of days ago:
“Attitude and Conduct of Scientology”
“…the arduous lesson along this line is that no-communication lists, revocation/suspension of certificates, court action of any kind whatsoever within the realm of Scientology and so forth, is not only not only difficult to do but does not work. That’s just the end of it. It just doesn’t work.It’s for the sea gulls. That might work in Gestetner Limited or Westinghouse, but it does not work in Scientology. Got that?”
“It’s because they are people of good intention. And by saying that these people are not fit to associate with us anymore, we have told a lie of magnitude. This is not true. It’s never true. You got it?”
“Our inability to understand the actions of other Scientologists has a very fascinating barrier. The limitation on our understanding is simply this: we say they have bad intentions, and that is a lie. Got it?”
“So the whole situation is liable to enturbulate around that postulated bad intention. That’s what enturbulates the situation. That makes a lie. “The situation then becomes unsolvable. Because we’ve entered a changing factor called a lie into it.”
“The most valuable asset we have, actually, is our ability to understand, to do the right thing, to be kind, to be decent.”
“Well, I hate to unsettle a very stable datum, if it does unsettle it. But the only way anything ever does resolve is by letting your own kind heart reach through. That’s the only way it ever does solve. “And it never solves by being tough.”
“What do we really have of value in the organizations of Scientology? The only thing we have of value, actually, is Scientology, an understanding of life, increasing ability to communicate, a good concept and grip on reality and the ability to like guys. That’s all you got.”
L Ron Hubbard “Attitude and Conduct of Scientology” (4th London ACC, 3rd November 1955)
Thanks for investing the time and energy to write to books you have and to the two you mention aborning. Knowing the market is small and doing it anyway is commendable. I for one have found great value in your blog and your books.
Moving past Scientology and the Bridge is as natural as breathing for those determinedly on a path to a higher self. LRH’s bridge is a godsend but it is incomplete. Thankfully we have the tech of auditing which will serve those who avail themselves of it on their chosen paths.
The search for truth is not a simple, easy, or a singular path. The CoS ingrained the desire and belief that it is a singular path . Charge off the case is charge off the case, cognitions are cognitions whether you get it from digging lint from between your toes, insightful meditating, or Solo auditing. Eventually one arrives at the same place. The differences may seem significant at one end of the journey but fall away in importance at the other. The other end of the journey is your eternity and what difference does a few years make at the beginning of that road.
The game is spiritual gain and making a better world.
Oracle,
I’m trying to get my wits about this you said:
“This is, a floating reactive mind out there. Once you get rid of your own, someone copies it and runs behind you as your new one.
This is why Scientologists are pts to Scientologists.”
I can’t quite figure out this but it have me laughing but not sure why!
🙂
Cece
Marty,
Thanks for the update on the scene. I especially look forward to the fifth work. I wish you all the best. And thanks for all of your contributions.
“Waiting On The World To Change”
Me and all my friends
We’re all misunderstood
They say we stand for nothing and
There’s no way we ever could
Now we see everything that’s going wrong
With the world and those who lead it
We just feel like we don’t have the means
To rise above and beat it
So we keep waiting
Waiting on the world to change
We keep on waiting
Waiting on the world to change
It’s hard to beat the system
When we’re standing at a distance
So we keep waiting
Waiting on the world to change
Now if we had the power
To bring our neighbors home from war
They would have never missed a Christmas
No more ribbons on their door
And when you trust your television
What you get is what you got
Cause when they own the information, oh
They can bend it all they want
That’s why we’re waiting
Waiting on the world to change
We keep on waiting
Waiting on the world to change
It’s not that we don’t care,
We just know that the fight ain’t fair
So we keep on waiting
Waiting on the world to change
And we’re still waiting
Waiting on the world to change
We keep on waiting waiting on the world to change
One day our generation
Is gonna rule the population
So we keep on waiting
Waiting on the world to change
We keep on waiting
Waiting on the world to change
Cool quote. Like it very much. Thanks TO.
Thanks for saying it exactly Brian.
Cece
Laughter too!
Trust me, it has NOTHING to do with Marty. Nothing! This is about PURPOSE. This person has a PURPOSE. It has just been manifesting in this arena. If Marty had never been born, this person would still seek out and find a target for prosecution. This is a PURPOSE. That FLOWS through TIME. This is the stuff that drags a person down scale into sadism and injustice.
And it is gnarly when this is focused at you. Because once you begin to fight back against it, YOU have to fall into PURPOSES to “survive” and you stop creating.
Hubbard called some of this “false purposes”. I am probably going to take an ass whipping for this, but there is nothing “false” about these purposes. They are very real. This is the stuff that gets addressed on the L’s and why these rundowns are so potent. And why thereafter, you can manage your purposes, alter /change them through time . This is why someone who finishes L12 is supposed to never go PTS again.
Do you have any idea how many people go PTS to PTS people? Yes. You can go PTS to PTS’s. What IS “PTS”? Being effected by something overtly or covertly that causes suppression along any one of your dynamics. (My verbal tech). I could list out 20 ways in under five minutes a person goes PTS to PTS’s. But that should be something people figure out for themselves.
Anytime you stop REACHING and begin to WITHDRAW you have suppression in your midst. I have not found it true across the boards that people withdraw because of overts. This is a wrong indication when spread across the boards in an all sweeping manner.
The people that withdrew early from Germany at the beginning of WWll were SMART. This was common sense. Especially if you were Jewish.
Because there were people just like “Jay” who goes overboard with the typos and misspellings to go unnoticed, who had the PURPOSE to prosecute someone else! This is what Hitler restimulated in others or got others to “mock up” as a purpose.
Strangely enough, the Jewish people are known among the most compassionate and survived through time managing their OWN purposes causative with regards to this. They even have a holiday once a year where they sit down and forgive themselves and everyone else! And “let it go” and start all over! And take full responsibility for all wrongness!
Part of the prayer:
“May all the people of Israel be forgiven, including all the strangers who live in their midst, for all the people are in fault.”
In this way they seek to rise above long gone purposes or even recent ones, that drag the tribe down. And they do it because they decide to rise above it all.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yom_Kippur
I hope that more people take the route that you have taken.
That more and more people will realize that the religion of one church can never endow them with the true intention of their creator.
I truly believe that organized religions of any kind are on their way out of our civilization.
Marty, you’ve made a mark here and helped many people move forward and see the need to integrate and evolve. Not everyone is ready to do so, but you certainly sent out enough invitations. Thanks for all the work and care behind your efforts to keep the blog here and why you continue to write your books. I’m especially interested in what will be your last one, as that is the path and direction I am on. I agree, I think it is the only possible future venue for the gems contained in Scientology, as all other doors appear to be closing on themselves by virtue of their design.
Hi Tim. 🙂
I really like a lot of what you’ve said.
The question I have is, why do you think the Bridge is incomplete? Do you feel that, as it stands, it’s unable to produce the state of Cleared Theta Clear?
I know that there is a lot of back-and-forth about further levels. I’m not saying that they don’t exist, but, I wonder who would be ready for them?
Wouldn’t the mind need to be prepared thoroughly? I would think that one would have to have a very good stable realisation..
Is there anything to focus on other than an ever deepening level of awareness?
Personally, I’m starting to just get settled in with the idea that Dianetics alone is completely available outside of the church, and is considered able to produce a Release or Clear. Isn’t that fantastic in its own right?
When people do actually start achieving that, then they can practically move straight onto the Scientology OT levels, right?
Right now both the hardliners and detractors are caught in a narrative that doesn’t even seem to be the main point at all.
It seems as though it’s imperative to just step back and take a breather.
Marty I look very much forward to reading your books. I like where your journey is ending. Or at least where your next one begins xxx
Oracle, that was a great post on Purpose and PTS. Loved it! I don’t mind it being thought from a great mind instead of just LRH. It sure indicated to me. Thanks. 🙂
Its like a Red Skelton Humor – Love it 🙂
Hi Marty, Moneca just down the road a piece from you guys. Someday we need to get together!
I have enjoyed your blog and your writing, along with you giving a shower to your harassers.
I find it interesting the need people have to to label something, critique make right and make wrong. My two cents worth, transcendence and ‘moving on up’ is leaving all that behind. We are creating it all anyway, might as well create some good stuff!!!
My best to you !!
Yeah, let’s visit sometime.
Please do not give up writing this post. It has been a lifeline for me and i am sure for many others.
In Scientology we used to have confessionals and at the end you were forgiven for transgressions and it was quite a release to be told that. Auditing was such a moment to look forward to. You always loved everyone more after and you loved your self more.
Then for the staff and public that had not been given sessions (and for everybody too) there was Amnesties. Those were fun!
Both were along the same lines as a new beginning and felt that way too.
I don’t believe one can stay away from regret unless one forgives himself and others. Anyone not having either above avenues could always simply do it himself with the ethics tech tested and fine tuned laid out for us. He could even do it himself without being trained on ‘all the Tech’ although that promised 50% more gains. What an easy life!
And public used to see me in the office with my newborn in the bassinet and say “How do you manage it?” And with no comm lag in unmistaken enthusiasm “It is fun. I’m having the time of my life!”
My best buddy is Jewish and extremely easy to get along with. He is 73 now but not fixed in his thinking and always looking forward. Thank goodness these people out here are no longer in my mind ‘wogs’!
Cece
I have been going back and forth all day about writing what Gretchen said , but all I want to say is that I will read your books and am hoping donations will flow your way so you can relax and write as I know that the subject of scientology will not survive without deeper understanding and integration.
Best Wishes and continued success!
Marty and others,
I can suggest why “integration, evolution and transcendence” is so necessary for the nuggets of gold that LRH laid out in a brief life story of mine…..
I accepted a volunteer and unpaid post of the Ohio Director of the National Right to Read Foundation (www.nrrf.org) about ten years ago. In that position and parlaying other social contacts and relations I arranged and had formal meetings with the President of the Ohio State Senate that even led to me testifying to the full Education Committee and it all had to do with the widespread illiteracy that was extant and why it was going to become worse. I’ll summarize: And yes I rattled some cages.
Here’s the point, Illiteracy is a monopoly industry. But literacy itself is the foundation of civilization.
The point here, aside from my meetings and testimony, is that there is a major fault in the monopolistic attitudes and business practices concerning the LRH Study Technology angle on how to reverse the documented declines.
Foremost, English is a phonetic and somewhat a bastardized language. Fundamentally though there are 26 letters, 44 sounds and 70 ways to spell those sounds. Yes, there are about 500 common words that don’t follow these rules, but properly taught on a gradient its all an easy course for being able to read, write and spell English fluently.
With regards to the barriers to study, the misunderstood word or SYMBOL is right up near the top, right? Well, letters and combined letters represent sound and letter relationships.
Yeah, the cult couldn’t acknowledge a proven technology, an absolute fundamental because the cult couldn’t copyright and trademark something that should be a God given right, the right to read.
The best phonics home-based program is by far http://www.actionreading.com.
The organization I gave a year of my life to is: The National Right to Read Foundation http://www.nrrf.org.
Phonics is the necessary undercut to Study Tech.
But you’ll never see it offered in an Org. There’s no money to be made.
That’s also why you’ll never see it in our public schools.
Interesting.
“Phonics is the necessary undercut to Study Tech.
But you’ll never see it offered in an Org. There’s no money to be made.
That’s also why you’ll never see it in our public schools.”
I hadn’t seen that web site before, it’s quite impressive. Thanks for sharing this. I’ll be digging on into this treasure trove…
Vic
When I went to ASHO for a CCRD years ago, I had a little cleanup and I was told I was forgiven and to basically go out and sin no more. I was so stunned to hear a Scientology Auditor “forgive” me after everything Hubbard had said about forgiveness, that it actually made me pause for the first time and re-examine just what was going on in the church.
If I understood your post correctly, it led me to recall my own stable datum on forgiveness, which is it’s one thing to forgive yourself if you feel the need , but to need forgiveness from anyone else when they have their own garbage pail to deal with, is to elevate that person(s) to a level above yourself and thereby label yourself even if unwittingly, subservient. I witnessed how that was used to control people and I believe it goes along the lines of how it was written for an Auditor to never apologize for real or imagined errors in a session, Auditor having the elevated status. How does that work for a heirarchy set up and scam to keep people under a thumb(s)? Pretty damn good, IMO. I’m not interested in that technique, which I believe was in conflict with LRH anyway, for those who are sticklers on “what did Ron say or what would he do?” Thanks for reminding me . 🙂
I look forward to any books you write. You have already helped so many with your observations, statements, postings, books and thoughts you have readily shared. I thank you. You know the game – and that is life is much bigger than the subject of Scientology or the thoughts of LRH.
The future of this planet, our world and the whole of mankind will require, and will only accept, an integration for a solution. There is no place for a “know best” or the “only” answer. The question is always changing, the created group environment is always morphing, the solution MUST be able to be adapted, integrated and allow the transcendence of all.
This has been a journey for many I expect – and for me absolutely. I have become a more aware person with a restored desire to change my future and that of those I know.
The following by Ralph Waldo Emerson fits the scene:
“The world is his,
who can see through its pretension…
See it to be a lie, and you have already dealt it
it’s mortal blow.”
As to those that refuse to accept this reality. I would like to remind all of the following quote which I find to be a truth. A simple truth that is breaking illusions daily on this blog and others like it.
“If you are still attached to your religion, your color, or the country you were born in, then you still don’t know who you are.” Prince Hanuman
I look forward to a future of radiant sunshine and new understandings. No matter the circumstances we found ourselves involved in – there is always a new awareness available. Tis a fascinating time to be waking up and walking our own path in search of answers. I enjoy all who travel similar, but different paths of their own.
I wish you had said this about me, because if you had and if it were true, I guess that would make me a law breaker now wouldn’t it? 🙂
Vic,
Literacy IS the foundation of civilization.
I’ll suggest further- The more literate; the more civilized.
+1
Rainbodhi- I say it is incomplete because it is not the end of the journey when you reach the end of the existing Bridge. There is still significant case that remains to be as-ised.
The terms Clear- Theta Clear -Cleared Theta Clear are mest terms attempting to describe spiritual conditions. Certainly people have gains and achieve states of being but that doesn’t make it the end of the road. Whether these states of being are attained or not is not the issue, they are simply labels. A return of self determinism or better said pan determinism across eternity is farther down the road than the Bridge will take one and that is where Full OT resides, if one must put a label on it.
This is your own shore story, Jay. Your tactics are outdated. For you, I am sorry, gently and compassionately sorry.
BTW, did LRH ever take the route out that he supposedly established?
Nancy
Simplethetan, simple answer! For goodness sakes, I thought they took care or something on the NOT’s thing! 🙂
Dogmatic online dictionary:
2. Characterized by an authoritative, arrogant assertion of unproved or unprovable principles. See Synonyms at dictatorial.
Sometimes this whole scene is a dogmatic war zone. A battle for dominating principles.
One false, ignorant, mis or not understood statement against another’s reality is cause for a volley of condemning words.
I guess it takes time to work out the need to condemn, the need to shoot down the opposition. Pity
Have I put a bullseye on my back?
B. Volta, that is true that the subject was still in formation, but that does not mean that it could not be correctly applied as it was forming. The whole concept of why auditing makes sense WAS put forth in DMSMH – ENGRAMS! Later in the 60’s the focus became IMPLANTS. That tech was also in formation as well, but it was still applied with success by a lot of people. Just ask anybody that finished OT III circa 1971 or so right in the middle of the huge DRUG CULTURE that sprang up. It figures that happened if you take a look at the track of society just prior to this – (i.e. the advent of moder medicine – surgery without pain). LRH was a pretty devoted guy and I owe him a lot, I wish I could thank him in person, but I would rather not cause a riot a local Church of Scientology trying to do so, if the opportunity ever presented itself. Those people are lunatics, practicing technology that does not even exist, that never WAS in formation at any point in time! 🙂 Thank God, the way out was the nearest doooooooooooooooooooooooor! 🙂
From beginning to end…Wonderful comment! Just seconds before I read your comment I had completed a search to find the very quote by Ralph Waldo Emerson that you included. And just a few minutes before that I had just completed watching (actually listening to as there was something wrong with the video) the documentary, ‘I AM” by Tom Shadyac . Even with just having the audio it was well worth the $3. Made me feel good! Before the screen went black, Emerson’s quote, the one you cited, appeared long enough for me to read.
Dare to know my brother, dare to discern, dare to be wise!
I’ll tell you a funny story about that. I di the Hubbard Personal Ethics and Integrity Course. There is a section where you write all of your overts and with holds on every dynamic. I was on that practical for seven months and ended with a big callous on one of my fingers. One of the best actions I ever did.
So, I paid for a few intensives requesting an end ruds check on every one of the dynamics against the over with hold write ups.
At the end, I wasn’t “forgiven”.
I had heard about this “forgivness” cycle and I wanted to be forgiven. So, I start running around the HGC bothering the D of P and making originations about this “forgiveness” thing and trying to find out what I have to do to be “forgiven” by someone.
My folders go to the C/S and as I am waiting around for the rest of the day, I SLOWLY come to realize how OUT INTEGRITY it is for ME, to NEED forgiveness from some else.
Suddenly, I didn’t care who forgives me or not, and furthermore, I do not NEED forgiveness from some else.
Next day the tech page comes to fetch me. I go into the HGC and the D od P is standing there and I say, “I could care less whether anyone on this base wants to forgive me.”
After all the fuss the day before! I just turned around and left.
I think the whole forgiveness thing was cancelled at some time. I never heard about it again. Maybe it had been cancelled before I even did that cycle.
I think it is healthy, just from human to human, to say, “I forgive you.”
I think it could be done at the end of every confessional and it would be a form of mercy.
I have yet to see any avenue of mercy in the Church.
But viewing myself groveling for forgiveness really turned me off.
That is when I fell into myself as a “product” from the course. That is when I felt my new gain.
Pumpkin, It is great when someone offers forgiveness, a form of mercy.
If only this has been a standard procedure instead of instant routing to the M.A.A.!
The thing about routing people to the M.A.A., is that they are sent there because of OTHER PEOPLE’s CHARGE!
The ethics officer I think, should have been in the Chaplain’s office and any help from the ethics officer should have been granted on request as free assistance for those curious about the subject ethics.
A comprehensive library on the subject of ethics from Plato, and Aristotle’s Ethics and Politics, up to Raymond’s Ethics and Natural Law. These could have lined the walls of the ethics office.
People could have been free to read and study in the library on their own determinism.
The entire subject of ethics could have been turned into a vast study of forces, conditions and social intercourse. Imagine that!
Now you get the fabulous possibilities behind Marty’s urging to “integrate”?
Well, if I am to be encouraged for originality…..not that I want to step on anybodies toes, but the whole idea of punishing people for being “POTENTIAL” trouble sources, by setting them up for losses for disconnection, is complete injustice!
Everyone of this planet has the potential to be a trouble source!
WHO is the REAL source of trouble, when someone is forced to disconnect from a child that “Might cause you to become a problem to us”? And it flaps all over the net? It is the M.A.A. that is the trouble source!
That is this the craziest injustice ever!
The label could have been A.T.S., Actual Trouble Source. When someone becomes an ACTUAL trouble source, you might want to step in to do a handle.
BUT BECAUSE OF A ” POTENTIAL “, justice becomes an issue?
When I use the term PTS, I do it to consult other’s understanding.
What I really mean is ACTUAL TROUBLED SOURCE.
Someone that is troubled in a real manner. NOT some potential!
We ALL have the POTENTIAL to be trouble sources.
Therefore, we are ALL subject to the law of PTS policy!
So, think about how OFF that reasoning is!
Hi Marty, I just want to encourage you regarding your fifth book. I left the Church about two years ago and moved to a small mid-west town. It’s the kind of town where there is a Christian Church on every corner. I have made some wonderful new friends. Two of them have said to me some version of “wouldn’t it be great if you could take the bad stuff out of Scientology”. My point is that I think there is still some interest out there in the good stuff that Scientology has to offer.
I look forward to hearing what you have to say, because personally, I am not so sure you can remove the good from the bad. It’s a really good idea, but I’m not so sure it can be done. I wish you luck with it.
WHO becomes an “Actual Trouble Source” in Scientology? Why, anyone who disagrees!
WHO said, “Disagree and go free.”?
L. Ron Hubbard! What kind of GPM are people locked into, when trying to AGREE (To not get labeled and sent for reform at the M.A.A.) and to DISAGREE to rise above the bank?
Hubbard postulates that you succeed when you are unreasonable. You neither give nor accept excuses. You insist on success.
L. Ron Hubbard defines reasonableness as “faulty explanations.” When you agree with faulty explanations, you are too reasonable.
Punishing people for “potentials” is as reasonable as it gets! What FAULTY explanation is this to drag someone into ethics: “You are here in the ethics office because you have a POTENTIAL to become a trouble source”. ????????????? Duh! So does everyone on the planet! Including the ethics officer!
So, the ethics system has it’s own contradictions and it’s own GPM’s.
That is why you rarely see people leaving an ethics office looking too healthy. Or happy.
This is NOT a justice system. Justice is a harmony that flows on reason.
This is then, an INJUSTICE SYSTEM (unless you want to get reasonable).
One reason who you see so much kick back on people being monitored and governed out here in the field, “organized and controlled” is that it is a BYPASS.
When nobody is in danger! These people most of them got out of non e decades ago and some have had practices going for over 40 decades.
They do not need to be bypassed!
Hubbard stated over, and over, and over and over, LEAVE THE FIELD PRACTICES ALONE. DO NOT SHOVE the organization down the throats of the field. Do not meddle with the field. Do not disturb the field.
Hands off they are independent. Do not touch! No enforcement! Back off!
(Hope someone here offers up the advice and quotes)
What do you find? W.I.S.E going into successful doctors offices, BYPASSING! A.B.L.E. going into successful rehabs (shut down 13 in the first four years they started managing). People coming out here and setting up “mini governments” and “certifying” (people who have been out here for decades).
The FALL of Scientology was David going into the Mission Network. He has stretched so far into the field the SEA ORG is managing dentist offices!
It all comes down to TAXATION and being TAXED. Getting “permission” and paying for more “government”.
It is injustice to bypass anyone in normal or above. This is when “help” becomes betrayal.
What is our real crime in the Independent Movement? We govern ourselves. As per Hubbard policy on the Field.
I’ve spoken to few people recently who have said, “Why doesn’t Marty “ORGanize? Set up staff. Give us orders. Lead us”? I even head someone say when I asked him what plans he had for life say, “I’m waiting for orders.” (Former Sea Org staff).
I can’t answer for Marty, but I can answer for Hubbard.
Find out where you are. This the THE FIELD. And it is OFF POLICY!
Read the policies on THE FIELD. If you are uncomfortable being in the FIELD that is NOT Marty’s responsibility!
There are plenty of people who want to ORGanize and govern in the field.
Even though it is totally off policy. Go find them and pay your taxes and admit this is off policy and you are doing it at cause point. Because somehow you do not really want to feel like you are in the field even though you are. But do not present it as K.S.W.. It is NOT.
Marty has not violated any policy by not meddling with the field as a governing force and running his own practice!
This is exactly per L.R.H. policy!
And that he was attacked over and over by the Sea Org, who isn’t supposed to be out of their own front yard, and they used people from The Field to do it, shows the utter disregard for L.Ron Hubbard and his views and policy on The Field.
We are ALL Field People! That’s just the reality of the matter!
But it gets better.
When religion and magic were considered one and the same in the not too distant past. There are high magic and low magic.
Low magic was used by the field people. “herbs, medicine etc”.
High magic was used by the priests and rulers.
We are field people with high magic.
And the priests and rulers are down to low magic in the Church (ethics officers purif tr’s and locationals)
Do you see how this got all backwards in Scientology?
Do you see the prophesies in the Bod Dylan song come true? In “Times they are a changing”.
THis is the kind of surreal and potent magic Hubbard made that made him great in my eyes.
The FIELD people are in command of the high magic.
For the first time ever, ever, on this Planet.
It’s a miracle! It is a blessing, NOT A CURSE! OWN IT!
He was an Oracle!
I personally do not believe Hubbard “fucked up” along this purpose line. To put high magic in the hands of field people. Do NOT feel guilty reading or doing some check sheet because someone else from the “ruling class” did not give you permission or some license to have it. It was always Hubbard’s intention for you have this. Get it. Own it, Use it.
You do need anyone’s permission. HUBBARD made sure you got it, if it is in your hands. He wanted the average man to have this. Not the “elite or the ruling class”.
They are left with patrons and members and societies and no more monopoly .
It wasn’t by accident or mistake. It was by our good fortune.
OK, then there’s my original, initial, question:
“What’s wrong with ‘altering LRH technology’ ?”
Doesn’t graduating from, or transcending, Scientology make possible the (gasp!) “altering of LRH technology” ?
And isn’t that a good thing?
Hi Tim,
Thanks. I have another question. When one reaches and completes OTVIII, what is the process supposed to be afterwards in order to maintain one’s gains? Traditionally do people rely on the L’s for this?
Is there anything else that one can apply after OTVIII (perhaps another process given earlier?) in order to continually expand awareness? Or is one expected to just be able to “reside” in that knowledge?
Put another way, are there tools available in Scientology for allowing an individual to as-is anything as it comes?
If so, then perhaps even talking about a Bridge as a linear gradation (after a certain point) is only very relative. And it also becomes entirely possible to integrate other methods (such as the dreaded yoga) into one’s life as a support. Is there any bona fide reason why not? At the beginning state of OT you should have the freedom to be able to do this.
+1
What’s been really wonderful these last few years is observing different people’s journeys out of the rabbit hole back into the sunlight. I can only speak for myself when I say that the three books to date have been an incredible benefit in this regard and I look forward keenly to the next two. At the risk of sounding a tad sycophantic I must say I have found this blog and the discourse to be a soul-enriching experience, and so the journey continues. Really appreciate what you’ve done Marty, and best to you and Mosey for the future ahead. BTW, you popped up in a dream the other night wanting to borrow my car!!!
No, just pointing out your own tendency to sometimes slip into condemnatory language.
B.Volta, some years ago when I was younger, I was in a philosophic and spiritual procedural crisis. I wasn’t sure which route to take, which prectice to practice. There were so many wonderful people saying wonderful things about which way to go. And they also seemed in conflict with each other which caused my consternation to increase.
So I did what I have always done in my life when I have a question needing an answer: I meditate, neutralize the wavelengths of persistant thought and become intuitive-the respository of direct knowing.
The answer that ocurred to me was this, and it came in a complete sentence:
“The validity of a process is determeined by the quality of it’s outcome”
This became my go to measuring stick for all things spiritual.
In other words, if a process brings you happiness, more understanding, more benevolent power, more love etc, then that is a good process.
It is the outcome of a proceedure that is important, not the worship of and unquestioning adherence to it.
I have not directly answered your question, but I have given you a means of determining it for yourself.
Not to people, to ideas. You can get snarky from time to time Marty. Ok, that is personal. But this is an honesty I would say to a good friend or brother.
My impassioned dialog is about proceedures that harm people. I have made ad hominems towards Ron, but I have backed it up with content, not just the joy of being nasty.
You may now share with me my communication flaws 🙂 I will listen willingly.
Dear Oracle
Thank you for your response. I am not ashamed to admit I live and
breathe Scientology. Not the Church of Scientology but the concept of “knowing how to know through study, and for me that does not just mean the physical universe but everything across all the dynamics which really includes the eighth who I believe has revealed Himself through the various scriptures and in His fullness through the Lord Jesus Christ. Which means we can know how to know also through studying the Bible.
It is encouraging to hear you say you are on the same page as me, however I am curious to discover what the 5% is, where we are not on the same page.
Having read the LRH quote in your post it prompted me to find this quote that Max Hauri of Ron’s Org. Grenchen sent me some time ago. In fact I might send it to St. Hill at some point; it really does speak from beyond the grave.
“Now the Scientologist, not to make a comparison but the Scientologist is perfectly willing and is at this time by Ethics being over-disciplined, so we are over-disciplining the Scientologist and under-disciplining society and we should reverse that — reverse that very definitely. If anything, under-discipline the Scientologist and over-discipline the society. Now in that direction you’d still win but in the direction we are going we won’t. If you under- discipline a society and over-discipline Scientologists, why, we’ve had it. As a Scientologist normally is very, very willing. We’ve got to upgrade the idea of what is a Suppressive, as Suppressives really are nuts. – LRH 18 July 1966”
Regards
Pip
You have my appreciation for what you have contributed to me directly as well as to so many people I love. Surely, you sleep well at night knowing that you have helped. My personal postulate is that you are flooded with clients for counseling awarding you extravagant cash gifts that allow you to continue your study and writing. Most of mankind is still searching for that which they can apply to move themselves up spiritually. Sometimes that is improving a condition that makes them miserable, sometimes that is greater personal spiritual awareness, sometimes that is helping others move up. You have much to contribute on this line. I know it will be put to good use and with good exchange.
I do hope that you will continue with enough on the blog so that we can follow the Musings of Marty as well as your life adventures.
Much love to you and Mosey.
Jay, thank you for expressing your perspective. Though you do not intend it as such, what you share is the true believer outlook that will (a) always use Scn to invalidate anyone who points out flaws in Scn and (b) never use Scn to critically think about Scn so that it can evolve.
I do “get” your viewpoint, though doing so actually makes me queasy, as it refreshes in my memory the rigid “group think” and judgmentalism within the cult — and I mean that word fully.
Gerhard,
“Jay, why are you so desperate?”
I don’t think it is ‘Jay’. It sounds more like Marion Pouw with Davey standing over her shoulder as she types!!!! Could explain the acts of desperation emanating from the dark side!
Oh yes, if this is an incorrect indication Dave, please disregard!
Oracle,
I think that might be what is referred to as the ‘Scientology cloud’! Kool Aide consumers, staff and public in good standing all have subscriptions to it.
O.K. Jane I am with you here. Real deal post.I am with you Jane.
That 5 % of me is what nobody can own. But me myself.
Hi Pip and thank you for sharing your story and your perspective. Reading your comment got me to pondering. And when I get to pondering something I never know where I will come out. Or if when I come out I will have anything to say. Even if I do have something to say, there is no guarantee that I will be able to do it justice with words. More often than not I can’t but I try anyway even if it does sound like foolishness. In mentioning this, I am reminded of something Siddhartha said while having a conversation with his friend, Govinda. From Herman Hesse’s book, Siddhartha, chapter 12:
” ‘I’ve had thoughts, yes, and insight, again and
again. Sometimes, for an hour or for an entire day, I have felt
knowledge in me, as one would feel life in one’s heart. There have
been many thoughts, but it would be hard for me to convey them to you.
Look, my dear Govinda, this is one of my thoughts, which I have found:
wisdom cannot be passed on. Wisdom which a wise man tries to pass on
to someone always sounds like foolishness.’ ”
So Pip, I’m going to dare to speak foolishness and attempt to put into words what was in my view when I came out of my moment of pondering. Please bear with me while I take the long way around the barn.
EVERYthing and EVERYone that I perceive that seems to exist outside of myself is a reflection of the “ME” within. Indeed, when I look outside myself I look into a mirror and see my reflection ONLY. Thus, no thing or person is EVER what it appears to be and whatever I might interpret my perception to be about, it is NEVER about.
I am the fish that has for so long been swimming around in the ocean continuously searching for water. Yet, I do not know that it is water I search for. And most certainly, I do not recognize that what I search for I have always possessed and where I travel to be I have always been.
You might inquire, “Why is it that a fish completely surrounded by water cannot recognize the water nor does not know that it is water it searches for? How can this be?”
Zooming in for a closer look at this fish the answer to the question, “How can this be?” becomes obvious.
Acting as the fish I have come to believe I am, I have manufactured an incredibly elaborate multi-layered, multi-dimensional, fantastically complex and complicated (sometimes beautiful sometimes ugly) structure around me. Upon every single component of this magnificent and seemingly infinite structure I have pinned a label (a symbol) and went on to attach labels to the labels and more labels to those. I venerate labels and, over time, have become enormously attached to every single one of them. The structure is all I see, is all I recognize and although I am unable to put my finger on exactly what it is I’m searching for (what I seem to have misplaced or lost), I know that it has to be somewhere within the structure. A structure that I have long since forgotten I was the one who fabricated it.
Again, I am reminded of something Siddhartha said in chapter 12:
” ‘When someone is searching,’ said Siddhartha, ‘then it might easily
happen that the only thing his eyes still see is that what he searches
for, that he is unable to find anything, to let anything enter his mind,
because he always thinks of nothing but the object of his search,
because he has a goal, because he is obsessed by the goal. Searching
means: having a goal. But finding means: being free, being open, having
no goal. You, oh venerable one, are perhaps indeed a searcher, because,
striving for your goal, there are many things you don’t see, which are
directly in front of your eyes.’ ”
In speaking of the structure that I fabricated and became imprisoned in, excuse me…not ME. ME did not become imprisoned (it is impossible for ME to become imprisoned) only a nano fraction of ME’s attention did…anyway, in speaking of the structure I thought of something that Jesus said in the Course in Miracles in chapter 2 of the text in section III, The Altar of God. He says:
“The next step, however, is to realize that a temple is not a structure at all. Its true holiness lies in the inner altar around which the structure is built. The emphasis on beautiful structures is a sign of the fear of Atonement [correction], and an unwillingness to reach the altar itself. The real beauty of the temple cannot be seen with the physical eye. Spiritual sight, on the other hand, cannot see the structure at all because it is perfect vision. It can, however, see the altar with perfect clarity.”
IMHO, Scientology cannot be found or lost or held onto or let go nor can one be kept away from it or let into it as SCIENTOLOGY IS or one might say LOVE IS or GOD IS. However, when Scientology, Love, Peace, Perfection, God, and so on, are identified as symbols, as structure…then they can be found, lost, held onto, let go of, taken away, kept from, let into and on and on…
When me, acting as the fish I have come to believe I am, becomes willing to let go of all the symbols and structure and go within to the altar of God and accept Atonement i.e., have my misperception corrected…I (the nano fraction of attention) will have returned home. Returned to ME.
One must train, study and audit. The answers without the work are of little value.
I very much appreciate your comment Tom. Thank you for sharing your perspective. I am curious, though, about this statement you made: “literacy itself is the foundation of civilization.” It’s not that I find disagreement with it but it’s the word ‘civilization’ that I stick on. I have always thought civilization was a good thing and being increasingly more civilized was desirable. However, I’m not so sure about that these days. For starters…what exactly does the concept civilization even mean. When I look the word up and see the copious amounts of words used in attempting to define/describe it, I have to suspect that no one really knows what it means.
Hi nojokin8! There is something you stated that I very much resonate with: “… it led me to recall my own stable datum on forgiveness, which is it’s one thing to forgive yourself if you feel the need , but to need forgiveness from anyone else when they have their own garbage pail to deal with, is to elevate that person(s) to a level above yourself and thereby label yourself even if unwittingly, subservient. I witnessed how that was used to control people…”
I have mentioned before in comments I’ve posted on Marty’s blog posts about the aversion I used to have for the concept of any form of the word, forgive. It has been about a year ago now when I read the book, Disappearance of the Universe by Gary Renard that I was introduced to a new way of looking at forgiveness. Gary’s book prompted me to begin exploring A Course in Miracles (a crs my wife had been studying for two-thirds of her life). Part of the crs is a collection of 365 lessons. As the primary message of the crs is about forgiveness, it is mentioned many times throughout these lessons. That noted, it is what is said about forgive in lesson 134 that really spoke to me. Nojokin8, I hope you don’t mind but I want to share a bit of that lesson with you. Here it is:
“Let us review the meaning of “forgive,” for it is apt to be distorted and to be perceived as something that entails an unfair sacrifice of righteous wrath, a gift unjustified and undeserved, and a complete denial of the truth. In such a view, forgiveness must be seen as mere eccentric folly, and this course appear to rest salvation on a whim.
“This twisted view of what forgiveness means is easily corrected, when you can accept the fact that pardon is not asked for what is true. It must be limited to what is false. It is irrelevant to everything except illusions. Truth is God’s creation, and to pardon that is meaningless. All truth belongs to Him, reflects His laws and radiates His Love. Does this need pardon? How can you forgive the sinless and eternally benign?
“The major difficulty that you find in genuine forgiveness on your part is that you still believe you must forgive the truth, and not illusions. You conceive of pardon as a vain attempt to look past what is there; to overlook the truth, in an unfounded effort to deceive yourself by making an illusion true. This twisted viewpoint but reflects the hold that the idea of sin retains as yet upon your mind, as you regard yourself.
“Because you think your sins are real, you look on pardon as deception. For it is impossible to think of sin as true and not believe forgiveness is a lie. Thus is forgiveness really but a sin, like all the rest. It says the truth is false, and smiles on the corrupt as if they were as blameless as the grass; as white as snow. It is delusional in what it thinks it can accomplish. It would see as right the plainly wrong; the loathsome as the good.
“Pardon is no escape in such a view. It merely is a further sign that sin is unforgivable, at best to be concealed, denied or called another name, for pardon is a treachery to truth. Guilt cannot be forgiven. If you sin, your guilt is everlasting. Those who are forgiven from the view their sins are real are pitifully mocked and twice condemned; first, by themselves for what they think they did, and once again by those who pardon them.
“It is sin’s unreality that makes forgiveness natural and wholly sane, a deep relief to those who offer it; a quiet blessing where it is received. It does not countenance illusions, but collects them lightly, with a little laugh, and gently lays them at the feet of truth. And there they disappear entirely.”
Palehorse, I suppose you’d need to ask LRH about that.
Hi Tim,
Well, that’s a whole mystery sandwich!
Pip, you wrote: “…but everything across all the dynamics which really includes the eighth who I believe has revealed Himself through the various scriptures and in His fullness through the Lord Jesus Christ. Which means we can know how to know also through studying the Bible.”
When I came into the Monte identity I came in with an aversion to Christianity. I had no interest in the Bible or Jesus. However, I did have a very keen interest in God. I wanted to know the who, what and where about this character. I began my search knowing what I was searching for but as I progressed I quickly lost sight of that specific goal and my search became quite dispersed and vague. But continued nevertheless. When I came across Scientology I considered that I had finally found what I had been looking for. My search was over! And that consideration held for quite a while. Eventually, though, I got “itchy feet” and my search began again but by this time I was in denial of God, which, with my new language of SC, I was referring to as being the ‘Eight Dynamic.’
Funny how things work out though Pip. My ‘original’ search for God, little by little, got rekindled. And, thanks to my experience in Scientology and Ron’s many viable tools, I have been able to keep focused on the goal of my search. Then yesterday, while reading lesson 189 in the Course of Miracles, I got some guidance with regards to the way to God that really made sense and at the same time, took some pressure off. This is what I read:
“Simply do this: Be still, and lay aside all thoughts of what you are and what God is; all concepts you have learned about the world; all images you hold about yourself. Empty your mind of everything it thinks is either true or false, or good or bad, of every thought it judges worthy, and all the ideas of which it is ashamed. Hold onto nothing. Do not bring with you one thought the past has taught, nor one belief you ever learned before from anything. Forget this world, forget this course, and come with wholly empty hands unto your God.
“Is it not He Who knows the way to you? You need not know the way to Him. Your part is simply to allow all obstacles that you have interposed between the Son and God the Father to be quietly removed forever. God will do His part in joyful and immediate response. Ask and receive. But do not make demands, nor point the road to God by which He should appear to you. The way to reach Him is merely to let Him be. For in that way is your reality proclaimed as well.”
Through my work with NRRF i ran across a study commissioned by the Dept. of Justice by Michael S. Brunner. The study centered on the root cause(s) of juvenile delinquency.
There was found to be only one correlate: Illiteracy!
Hence my take on civilization.
Marty & Mosey,
what you have done for the Independent Movement and for the recovery of the subject of Scientology is gigantic.
You stood unshakable in spite of the hurricanes that have been directed to you.
They tried to make your life miserable and unbearable while you were trying to do the opposite for the lives of the thousands of Scientologist that were waking up.
The informations you delivered in your books are priceless and there are a milestone for a complete understanding of what actually went on in those years.
Of course each one of us has his own perspective from where he looks at things but TOO MANY of the data you revelead were hidden from view and it would have been impossible to reach a razionale and sane conclusion in relationship to the state of the subject, the church his founder without having all the data you layed on the table for us to digest.
You always fostered individuality and the self determined action of moving up higher from where we were standing.
We took several of your advices and they were pearls of wisdom.
We trained under your guidance and that was an incredible experience because “real understanding” was required and we saw the results in front of us at every session we were running our pcs or Pre OTs on.
Nothing was less than standard in relationship to the tech, I think it was standard with the ingredient of a real UNDERSTANDING of the whys and the when etc.
We think in essence that you both wrote a big piece of the history of Scientology in your Blog, in your Books, but most of all by your actions.
The total selflessness that directed your actions and decisions, starting from the Debbie Cook full support, to the Headley and all the numerous action demonstrated you had NO agenda besides the well being of the movement and the people in it.
So I am sure that you both will reach the goals you set for yourselves.
You have been an inspiration for those brave enough to persist in their search for freedom.
“and c) (and perhaps most importantly in the long term) future integral practitioners who could benefit others by incorporating workable ideas of L. Ron Hubbard into programs of human betterment.”
Thanks for outlining your strategy.
An interesting adjunct to what you said above is the fact that some of us apply LRH data to organizations. I have experienced the very same dichotomy you have in sorting out the integration of extant solutions to organizational problems, with what LRH had to say about this subject in his many writings.
If one assists businesses to operate successfully one can access many authors and thinkers in this area, as a resource for such assistance. Use the Admin Scale but add your knowledge of Peter Drucker’s writings on business strategy. Use your knowledge of ARC and add insightful writings on customer service or relevant software that helps achieve this. Know about conditions but do not insist everyone writes them up. Just know and act.
I am sure many of your audience know more about how to do this.
But, importantly for me, is the ability to use the Hubbard writings, or parts thereof, in a purely secular form. No religion within a 1000 miles of any application.
“Future integral practitioners”” for me includes management practitioners without any desire at all to prozelitize Hubbards so-called religious writings, albeit using this data personally in some form.
Instead of ramming a green-on-white organizational cake down the company’s throat, you offer him a powerful solution that works, but LRH may simply be an ingredient in the cake. Not visible necessarily. Your entire and total and absolute focus would be assisting that business to do better. Who authored the recipe of the last burger bun you ate? Who cares. The guy loved the burger.
None of the above has anything to do with spirituality or reducing or witnessing, but is indeed integrated practice.
Once your last book is out Marty, this could be another?
🙂
You sound like you’d make a great life coach or executive coach. I’m sure you’ve considered it. The market for your current services, while deserving, is only going to get smaller. Check these out …
http://executive.berkeley.edu/programs/executive-coaching-institute
and
http://www.lifecoachtraining.com/
It’s not psychology. It’s focusing intention and teaching individuals to get results.
Hi Marty – I’m really looking forward to these new books. I would love to see your thoughts on the line between what is worthwhile vs. what is not about the subject of Scientology. As for me, reading your latest made it clearer for me, because chapter 5 rehabbed my own discovery period of the good that Scientology can be.
To me, Scientology can be roughly split into two large bodies: That which is “in” by default, and that which is “out” by default.
From there, I would examine the subject from that baseline for each body. That which is “in” by default is, to me, all Red on White, the books, PABs, early technical works, and technical and Broad Public LRH tapes. What this means is that these are materials that should be reviewed with an eye to finding data that should be rejected. It is assumed worthwhile unless reviewed and rejected.
Things that are “out” by default are Green on White, Blue on White, all administrative advices, the OEC, the Management Series vols. By this I mean that the material should be reviewed with an eye to identifying things that should be kept. It is assumed rejected unless reviewed and accepted.
Of course, this is a very broad generality – the Data Series. for example, is Green on White, and there are definitely tech issues that should be rejected, but on the whole, this works for me.
Flag Orders, GO and OSA advices, anything having to do with them are not Scientology and I reject them out of hand.
I think that anyone who undergoes their own analysis of the body of work called “Scientology” will come up with a very different list of “In” vs. “Out” than I would – and that’s okay.
And this is for Scientology data only. The universe of knowledge is unlimited and infinite. Against that backdrop, the workable portions of Scientology are very valuable, but a drop in the bucket to what is knowable.
Mark
+1
Let me dovetail this into my departure from this monstrous cult circa 2003. At the time I was on board with this worthy foundation and their cause I was also the Cincinnati OT committee Way to Happiness in charge.
I got a frantic HCO personnel call to “immediately” report to the Org! Hauled into a closed-door office I was shouted at that “I had other fish to fry!!!!” among other expletives by both the DED, David Sonninfeld (Jeannie’s husband), and who else but the CO WISE EUS, Quentin Strub.
I was ordered to immediately buy 2 intensives of Sec Checking to find out my ‘crimes’ or I’d be declared. Of course this all took place on a Wednesday evening about 9 pm.
In the quietest tone 40, I answered ‘F*&^ You’, turned around and left the building.
That is the moment when I knew the COS was deader than a hammer.
777, Baby.
Steve Hall does not belong in the same bin with Tom M. Or the others. Really. He posted a write up on his blog to explain a lot of this confusion.
He has really put forth some effort to sort this situation out. And I know he had put forth effort to correct other situations. A little mercy goes a long ways. And is always more promising than condemnation. Permitting people to correct situations is mercy.
Wow Tom, Good for you! I had the opportunity to home school two kids and I could not agree with you more about phonics. As well, historical background of the language! The etymology of the English Language. There was a set of DVD’s called “The Story of English” that was being sold and was very scarce and ungodly expensive. It took a HUGE effort just to get a few copies for Christmas presents. It is now on youtube and a fascinating documentary!
I was reading Middle English at the age of 11, and I still qualified as a “juvenile delinquent”. Spent plenty of holidays in the juvenile hall system in South Bronx. “Runaway” status. It was illegal to live on your own then if you were under 18. It still is today. I think kids who get into other juvenile delinquent trouble, are prevented from producing. During the depression young people were competing for work with men that had families to feed. All sorts of laws were passed to keep young people out of the marketplace. I have a 14 years old that wants to work and we are going through all sorts of red tape so he can get a “permit” to actually go out and put in some exchange with society. It is huge suppression on a young adult.
If half of these kids had a job and were ALLOWED to put in some exchange, they would gladly flip around.
Everyone of my troubles ended the day I turned 16 and got Emancipation minor status and could work. I had already been working since the age of 12 (started out cleaning out the pet cages at a pet store).
Yes, I am doing something about this. 🙂 In progress.
Additional: Of course, I wasn’t a “runaway”. But I couldn’t very well tell the police my mother threw me out on the street because I suggested Scientology was “a crutch”. That would have gotten her in trouble.
You are on a roll with these posts, T.O.!
Thanks Mark for such a succinct statement. I agree and I don’t think it could have been said better.
rainbodhi, my idea about this comes down to what LRH said about 50% of the potential gains of Scn being on the training side of the Bridge. I don’t think that’s been given enough recognition by the vast majority of Scientologists. Training is where you get an understanding of the “mind” and life and as a result are far more capable of recognizing phenomena that arise and of being cause over, rather than effect of, them.
I liked something Marty wrote once, to the effect that someone who has achieved OT 8 should simply recognize that he is cause and no longer needs to be at effect point of any rundown or whatever in order to carry on with personal advancement. He can find his own way, basically. In fact, Marty wrote something similar even about a Clear, I believe. In other words, it’s just a matter of being one’s own orientation point, as described in Creation of Human Ability.
Tim-S also mentioned study, in addition to “training” as such, and I gather that is what you yourself are doing with the Scientology materials. So I imagine you have a reality on the benefits of that alone. A study principle in Scn that you may already be familiar with is “number of times over the materials equals certainty and results”. I find it to be amazing how much more I get out of materials when I go back over them, especially at a relatively later point in time.
As in, I think roughly 5% of the population is emotionally unavailable.
Like! + 1000. Eloquent summation, Scottie.
Pip, let me be upfront and snarky:
I agree with you. Scientology discipline needs to get off the backs poor scientologists and start disciplining that damn society because of all the wogs and reincarnated evil cosmic rebels.
First off they should send massive OSA agents out into society to kill pets, destroy reputations, throw out ethics old ladies overboard, make out ethics men who drink too much push peanuts around with their noses on a splintered deck till their noses bleed, gang bang sec check teenagers, black ops to ruin lives and families, create gulags for thought criminals, give compassionate second chances to thought criminals by violent hypnotic mind reeducation.
Yes, of course, so that is what has been wrong, scientology has been punishing the wrong item.
Scientology has single handedly imprinted into your poor receptive and naïve brains the idea that Suppressives are THE cause.
Christ would not agree with you I’m afraid pip. Scientololgy discipline and punishment is not what Christ would want.
PTS and SP tech and Third Party ‘Law’ are doctrines giving justification to victimhood thus externalizing causes of trouble in an external person deemed unfit to be treated with human decency. This then deflects a person from looking within for causes and blames external agencies.
This philosophy is another basic basic on Scientology’s inherent self destructive nature. It is an essential, central part of Ron’s personal psychology: Blame external causes.
Eep.
Hi Monte
That’s a lovely piece from A Course in Miracles and so scientological. It is a one step to O.T. One of the definitions of “CLEAR” is full visibility of the time track, whereas the definition of O.T. is NO TIME TRACK. Since all incidents on the time track are there because of considerations – postulates, it follows that if we are “Still, and lay aside all thoughts of what you are and what God is” that would mean we would no longer mock-up a time track and we would be as God created us – O.T.!
Hi Marildi,
Thank you for your response, and in particular for pointing me to what Marty wrote about this. I do like the idea that, at the very least, when one has reached OTVIII, people should be capable to live more intuitively without having to worry about rules and structures so much and yet still retain and expand their results.
If this is actually the case, then wouldn’t the Bridge be complete in its own way? The position “you should study and train diligently, but it’s an incomplete path” is untenable to me.
Unless I’m confusing the Bridge with “everything that’s available in Scientology”?
I suppose that’s really what I’m trying to discover, and with all the conflicting information flying around, it’s not as easy to answer as it seems.
Yes, I have been studying, and I do recognise that it’s possible to have cognitions through that knowledge alone. My strongest experience of this, actually, had come from reading Dianetics: The Original Thesis (which I find to be a most distilled and essential work).
I also agree that going over the materials multiple times is important (there are parts of some books that I’ve read over and over) – it seems beneficial to revisit materials after having an insight, trying to get to the real essence of what is being said.
Hi Brian
I had not come across the word ‘snarky’ but if you wish to be “Critical; cutting; testy, or rudely sarcastic or disrespectful; snide,” that’s OK with me. Although I think you might do better practising LOVE and UNDERSTANDING.
It appears to me that you have experienced some mis-application of Scientology Ethics or maybe you know others who have, but that doesn’t necessarily mean the fault is with ethics rather than the faulty application of ethics.
Ron has said that man in his current state of aberration cannot be trusted with ethics and justice. Ethics properly applied has nothing to do with punishment and everything to do with rehabilitation, although even that is a dirty word in some quarters.
Jesus Christ would be the first to endorse discipline but discipline has nothing to do with punishment. Ideally discipline is something one “puts in on themselves” and justice is the action the group takes on the individual who fails to do this.
I rent rooms and if a tenant fails to pay their rent my first action is to enquire why their rent is not paid. Then through UNDERSTANDING their situation I endeavour to help them rectify that situation, and only if they persist in continued non-compliance would I take further steps to resolve the situation, but only ever working on the intention of finding a solution where everyone wins.
If a person loses through my mis-management then I also have lost. I look for a win-win solution. That I suggest is the correct application of ethics and justice.
Hi Monte
I loved what you wrote. Of course it is very much ACIM the realisation that there is no objective world, that everything we perceive with our physical senses are nothing but a projection of our mind, that part of our mind that we split off from God.
I was interested in the piece you quoted from Herman Hesse’s book “Wisdom which a wise man tries to pass on to someone always sounds like foolishness”. I was reminded of the difference between wisdom and knowledge. Knowledge is information, wisdom is something quite different. The Bible says “The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom”. Wisdom cannot be taught it can only be caught, that is by example.
At one time along my particular path, I visualised a railway track stretching away into the distance and finally ending in a starburst where the two rails met. I realised I had been walking down the railway track hoping to reach the point where the rails become one, and suddenly saw how ridiculous that journey was. All I needed to do was be still and allow that point to enter me. As you say “the temple is not a structure it is what lies at the very heart of the temple that the physical eyes cannot see. This is why I say the true you is PERSONHOOD, a word interestingly ACIM does not use, but for me would be the epitome of the AT-ONE-MENT.
That was freaking awesome! 😀
Nancy
Tom, you should know that Frank Zurn who used to
work at Applied Scholastics was very big on phonics
and even though being an exec in that org used to
sit down with the students himself and teach them
with this method.
I am currently teaching my 2 year old grand kid with
the same method and she is certainly getting it.
Yes Tom, so true. Fits like hand and glove.
I am reminded of what Marianne Williamson the author of “Return to Love” said. That each of us has a broken relationship with our creator and this broken relationship is a zillion times more traumatic than any relationship breakdown we could ever have with our fellow man, and in fact, every relationship is really an attempt to restore that original A.R.C. Break (my word not her’s) but of course we never can because everyone we meet equally has the same A.R.C. break with THE INFINITE.
We can only truly give ourselves 100% to each other when we have been reconciled with God.
Hi rainbodhi,
On the question of whether the Bridge is complete, the way it seems to me (at the level from which I view :)) is that it depends on the individual. People at the same Bridge level can differ greatly. In fact, people start out on the Bridge at greatly different levels of ability and spiritual awareness. One of the incredible things about the tech and the Bridge is that LRH devised it in such a way that anyone, at whatever spiritual level they begin, can do each Bridge step and get whatever depth of gain they are capable of at the time – and still have the EP because it’s their own personal EP based on their current potential.
The concept of people starting out at different levels of spiritual advancement was even mentioned as early as 1951 in SOS, chapter “Ability to Handle Responsibility”. (Btw, if you haven’t read it, that’s an incredible book.) In that chapter LRH was describing a fully responsible individual in relation to his various dynamics, and when he got to the 7th dynamic (spirituality, theta) he wrote just one sentence but it was significant:
“He may or may not have some consideration in the direction of theta, this depending upon his own advancement.”
When I was a word clearer, I got a lot of reality on this point of differences in people. I found that students varied enormously in their depth of understanding of the materials – even with regard to the meaning of a particular word. And there is nothing in the word clearing tech that conflicts or disallows that difference. So I find it easy to understand that, with regard to the Bridge, people vary all along the way, up to and including the end at OT 8. Thus, some of them would have reached a point where, as I wrote in the earlier post, they could be described as fully their own orientation point. And for the remainder I suppose the “rest of the journey” will be a lot longer for some of those than for others. This is just my own personal “think”, mind you.
As to whether the Bridge is “everything that’s available in Scientology”, I think it’s clear that it isn’t. There are parts of the full materials that aren’t included on either the training or processing sides of the Bridge, such as the “old” (original) OT levels, which from what I have read aimed at positive rather than negative gain, i.e. they drilled the individual on OT abilities, as well as many other processes that can be found in the books, etc. And the training side doesn’t include all the lectures.
So I would say no, the Bridge doesn’t include all that LRH discovered and furthermore, as you’ve seen for yourself, “it seems beneficial to revisit materials after having an insight, trying to get to the real essence of what is being said”. And thus there remains the potential for further gain with repetition. My idea is that some people may have reached a sort of “ending point” (or enlightenment or whatever word may be used) and others may need, or elect, to continue their journey – with either Scn materials or some other path like Buddhism, which some have done, as you know.
Good to know, because i like Steve. Thanks for the info.
Thanks. 🙂
I completely agree with you about the variability of the individual – we all have different types of propensities. I like the idea of how this fits in with everyone having realisations up to their own capacity at each point on the Bridge, thank you for sharing that insight.
I suppose that the corollary is that we should at least have some autonomy in choosing or engaging in that which works for us. This can be proven by the mere fact that not everybody is interested in or attracted to Scientology at all, and it’s important to be sensitive to that.
What I have been looking at lately is how much of Scientology is, in fact, a “grab bag” of methods that produce direct results whenever applied, and how much of it is a linear pathway that is to be more or less executed in perfect sequence.
The earlier lectures that I’m listening to seem to point more towards the former. I understand that a lot of work and codification was done later, but does this mean that everything he taught earlier falls by the wayside?
And do the contents of all of those countless 1950s lectures just become deprecated?
Personally, at this stage, I don’t believe that. My current consideration is that he had far too much insight during the 1950s to fluctuate so wildly at a later time, difficulties and challenges within the community (and his own circumstances) notwithstanding. Surely he can’t have intended to bend it that far out of shape.
For instance, I came across something where LRH basically said that Creative Processing had become a perfect procedure. But what happened to it? Aren’t people free to apply it if they want?
Regarding the “old” OT levels, all of that is a mystery to me. However, aren’t they still available for those who choose to do them?
Of course, I am not entirely familiar with all of the policy letters that seem to cancel things out, aside from bits and bobs here and there. It’s all a bit confusing.
What I do know is that LRH pointed people to read and enjoy other religious (and literary) materials. From what I understand, dedicated Scientologists are also able to engage in methods from other religions – so long as that permission is given. Ideally, should anybody really be saying “no” in most cases? That’s one sure-fire way to lose people who have varied interests.
Regardless, when one becomes trained to, say, Class VIII as well as having completed OTVIII, then wouldn’t they be expected to have practically all of the completed tech ever taught at their disposal? As far as I understand, one is able to apply at least a handful of these to oneself after having received the proper training.
There seems to be so much potential here, but the execution… I can’t think of anything more tragic.
I do not trust Ron with ethics and justice.
But I agree with you. A benevolent use of ethics is very good. The formulas done in a benevolent way is excellent.
But unfortunately those evil SPs get in the way of all the benevolence, and then they make us harm them as a group bonding experience.
Honey taste great. But if it’s laced with tasteless poison………………..
My opinion Pip is really not to make less of you personally. I apologize if I have. But there is a danger in them there formulas!
I sometimes think that Man in his current state cannot be trusted with Scientology! But sometimes I am not that pessimistic. This blog helps.
rainbodhi,
I have only a moderate amount of auditor training and a lot of what I “know” is what I’ve picked up from blog comments. That said, my understanding is that “grab bag” methods was the case up until the Bridge was laid out. The Bridge is basically a specific sequence of gradiently higher awareness and ability, each level enabling the pc to be capable of benefiting from the next. However, IMO none of that is to say that the data and processes from the earlier lectures and written materials would not be very beneficial as well, maybe more so – if they can be successfully applied.
The way I get it is that LRH found he had to cut back the gradient for both the pc’s and the auditors who were training on those early processes. His basic intent was to create a path that everyone could follow and that large numbers of auditors could therefore be trained to deliver. As for Creative Processes, they were not only difficult for many pc’s and auditors but LRH discovered that at a certain point they were “limited”, meaning that there was some liability to running them longer. (That’s not very specific, I know, but that’s the basic idea.)
The “old” OT Levels aren’t available at the CoS but apparently they are being done outside of the church. Anyone can find them – and virtually everything else LRH developed – on the internet. And btw, there are a number of offshoots of Scn that some people rave about. For example, I just read a comment yesterday from someone that “TROM covers the tech in about 100 pages” and that it’s pure solo and free. I’m sure it could be found on the internet. Idenics is another one. From a description I read of it not long ago, I got that it deals with the key subject of identities, and that it sort of picks up where Creative Processing left off and is not a limited process. Here’s the link: to a short article: http://www.freezoneamerica.org/Goldstein/After/part9.htm
You’re right that things changed as the years went on. In the CoS it became no longer okay to even read materials on other paths. It isn’t even acceptable to do any of the earlier LRH developments – only modern “standard tech” is to be done, which is basically the Bridge. These changes are just a small part of why things went to pot for Scn. LRH had various major reversals in his approach, actually. If you haven’t read Marty’s books you should as they will answer so many questions for you.
You wrote, “There seems to be so much potential here, but the execution… I can’t think of anything more tragic.”
Poignantly true. 😦 🙂
Brian, I haven’t thought much about the conditions or their formulas for quite a long time. But, when I read this statement you made: ” The formulas done in a benevolent way is excellent.” I found myself suddenly looking at the conditions and formulas from a perspective that (I believe) as considerable more clarity (for me anyway) than ever before. In my 32 years as a scientologist I did the conditions and formulas plenty of times. Sometimes with great success sometimes not so much. That noted, what I see now, though, is not at all what I used to see. I now see only one condition and one formula that has any worth to me and that is the condition of Enemy. Formula: Find out who you really are. For me, that is the only condition and formula that has any viability in helping me to return to where I have always been. I know that Ron considered the condition of Confusion as the lowest condition and then Treason above that. But, I do not agree with Ron on that. For me, I consider that when I find out who I REALLY am….EVERYTHING will fall into place so to speak.
Going back to what you stated Brian: “The formulas done in a benevolent way is excellent.” I absolutely agree. They can be quite viable in making a better way within the illusion. IMO, though, until one discovers who they really are, they may win, place or show in the proverbial “rat race” (the illusion) but they will still be a rat and the race will still have them.
Marty, I like the suggestion for you to be a Life Coach. I can see you doing that. It isn’t psychiatry. It is stuff where you could really help people. And if they seemed to need and reach for Scn, you could dissem that to them too. I’d say more people than ever now need a life coach since life is changing so fast and we have the recession we’re in etc. think about being a Life Coach.
Pip, when I read what you wrote, “We can only truly give ourselves 100% to each other when we have been reconciled with God.” I, for some reason, thought of something that I read a few days ago in the course’s lesson 185. That was…
MODERATOR NOTE: THESE QUOTATIONS FROM YOUR COURSE ARE BECOMING SO LONG AND FREQUENT THAT THE FORUM IS BECOMING LESS A DISCUSSION THAN A PITCH FOR A PARTICULAR ROUTE. PLEASE SHARE YOUR THOUGHTS, RATHER THAN LENGTHY PASSAGES FROM YOUR GUIDE.
Please tell me where I can find where LRH said this. I can’t find this statement in the Auditors code. Is there a link reference? I really need this info, asap. Thanks! 🙂
““It [the Auditor’s Code] could be called the moral code of Scientology.” -LRH
Hi Brian
No, what you wrote didn’t in anyway unmock me, but thanks for the thought. I was looking at your opening statement “I do not trust Ron with ethics and justice” and am not quite sure what to make of it. If you are saying you believe that LRH is capable of making a mistake, I agree. In fact I think his biggest mistake was removing the word LOVE from the technology of Scientology, but having said that I have never considered him to be anything but sincere.
All information is potentially dangerous and is dependent on the sincerity or otherwise of the person applying it. Only a truly selfless person could be relied upon to administer ethics and justice flawlessly and there are not many of those about.
It’s in The Creation of Human Ability. This is at the bottom of the Auditor’s Code (the one at the time):
“The Auditor’s Code was evolved from years of observing processing. It is the technical code of Scientology. It contains the important errors which harm cases. It could be called the moral code of Scientology.”
Here’s another beautiful reference on the Auditor’s Code, from Notes on the Lectures:
“Any two people in constant association who will conduct themselves according to the Auditor’s Code will soon find not only that they are clear or almost as a group of two but also that their knowledge of, and
joy in human relationships has been immeasurably increased.”
And I have read the wonderful heartfelt acks and commendations to Marty for his pioneering work he’s done on this blog and in his books. And I agree wholeheartedly that he has done so much for so many with little thought to his own needs, and that has more than wiped out anything done as Inspector General RTC during his days in the church. Kha Kan to Marty! But I don’t want to give too big an ack to him because I want him to continue with this blog etc. Everyone, just half-ack Marty and long may his flag wave!
Hi again,
This is quite an interesting conversation to have, thanks for the pointers!
I think the main reason for exploring this is to break free from the strong limitations that have been more and more imposed over time in the CoS, and to find out what really is and is not legitimately applicable.
There should be more than enough there that’s available for all sorts of people – both the folk moving up the Bridge at a regular pace and those who have reached the top and are wondering how to continue.
After all, the final goal is omniscience, so… how to get there? 🙂
It’s interesting to see the other developments that have occured; I’d heard of Idenics a while back, and TROM looks to be an interesting study too, after I have familiarised myself more with the primary material.
But what I’m looking at is what LRH had really stipulated, and the reasons why that is so.
I found the reference to the status of Creative Processing in HCOB 11 Feb 1960 (“Create and Confront”). He said there, don’t run it on a pc, particularly because they are sometimes quite late on the cycle of action (or its inversion) at “destroy”.
Having said that, I wonder if it has its uses in other circumstances, such as someone higher up on the Bridge? I also think, someone at OT should be able to mock up objects in space that are directly observable, at least to a limited degree.
Also, it seems like the old OT levels were never actually cancelled. I’m sure there’s a lot of value in them, particularly if the contents differ and people were on them at one stage. I think there’s a case to be made that, after a certain point (such as having attained high level results) you shouldn’t be babysat any more.
I do wonder whether a lot of these things are in fact reversals, as you’ve suggested. Otherwise it’s too misleading. I’d like to believe that LRH left an opening.
Thank you SO much. Do you happen to know WHICH book of CofHA has this? (the date of copyright) LRH’s books have gone through much altering and deletions. By the way, The Notes on the Lectures is out-of-print.
Wayne, as far as I know that sentence is stillin all editions of CoHA. Ijust checked and it is in the new GAK (The Basics) edition.
I picked up “Notes on the Lectures” on Ebay just a few months ago. Some of these older books still show up on Ebay at times.
Hi “Valkov”! Thanks! This is good to know. This information is settling some confusion on my progressive Scientology Facebook group regarding the “unnecessity” of applying the auditor’s code outside of session. Apparently, some thought that it was OK for Auditors to evaluate and invalidate their PC’s as long as they were OUT of session, that as long as the evaluation and invalidation is “out of session”, this won’t damage cases. (By the way, now I know the origin of your handle. You like “Chuck”, too, as do I. Great show. lol. :))
Marildi,
Just jumping in again here to say I found this quote from 30 Jun 1970 (this is quite possibly already well known):
“Inevitably, when any new approach or process is released, some will instantly assume that all “older” (actually more basic) data has been cancelled. There is no statement to that effect. It is not guessed that this will be assumed and so we could lose an entire subject.
[…]
This idea that the “old” is always cancelled by anything “new” has its root in the idea that a later order cancels earlier orders, which is true. But orders are one thing and Tech basics another.
[…]
This is no fantasy. As a college student in upper math I was utterly baffled by “calculus”. I couldn’t find out what it was for. Then I discovered it had been developed by Sir Isaac Newton, examined the basics and got the idea. My college text omitted all the basic explanations and even the authorship of the subject! Calculus today is really not enough used because it isn’t understood.”
Very good observation. But one also must remember TO evaluate when one IS dealing with LUNATICS like Adolf Hilter and his ilk.
Very good data thanks for posting it. Remember in 1952 LRH started at OT and had been undercutting ever since. He did complete the entire Bridge. I believe he mentions it in RJ 28.
Jay, I always thought the issue about “evaluation” was that one did not communicate his evaluation of the other to that other. Especially as an auditor.
An auditor has been defined as one “who listens and computes”, so of course he doesn’t stop thinking, evaluating, and computing. He just keeps those to himself. And communicates with the pc according to what he “evaluates” as the proper action/communication.
Wayne, to tell the truth, I have never seen the show “Chuck”!
If you want to know how my handle came about, visit and read this:
http://www.gulagsurvivor.com
But I sure will check out “Chuck” soon! It is a TV show, right? 🙂
Hi rainbodhi,
You’re welcome for any pointers. I was wishing this were still an active thread and that some others would join in too who have more training or knowledge than I do. I see now that Jay made a helpful comment, so this is good. Maybe Valkov will see this exchange too as he is very well informed, although he didn’t have much CoS experience. Like you, he has a lot of familiarity with the lectures and I think the books as well. (Val, jump in if you see this and the spirit moves you. :))
You wrote:
“I think the main reason for exploring this is to break free from the strong limitations that have been more and more imposed over time in the CoS, and to find out what really is and is not legitimately applicable.
“There should be more than enough there that’s available for all sorts of people – both the folk moving up the Bridge at a regular pace and those who have reached the top and are wondering how to continue.”
That’s pretty much what Marty writes about. And in this particular OP he stated: “The latter [of the two additional books he plans to write] is a recommended guide for integrating safe and sane application of that in Scientology that can be effective for those who wish to apply it. That is, an integral practice which by my own estimation is the only fashion by which Hubbard’s workable ideas will survive or serve salutary purposes for future generations.”
As for the goal of Scn being omniscience, I don’t think that’s the case – that would put a thetan out of a game, which is more a goal of Buddhism, if my understanding is right. (Btw, I’m curious if you are Buddhist. I’ve assumed that because of your posting name.) In the early 50’s LRH talked about Cleared Theta Clear, a being who has full ability as a thetan but is still into games, albeit those of his own creation. However, in the book Fundamentals of Thought, written in 1956, he stated simply that the goal of Scientology is the playing of a better game. And the Bridge, obviously, doesn’t necessarily, if ever, produce the level of game player described as Cleared Theta Clear. You mentioned “able to mock up objects in space that are directly observable” (by others), which would be at that high level of Cleared Theta Clear.
Those were some good quotes you posted on your additional comment below. And I totally got what you said about calculus. If you haven’t listened yet to the Study Tapes, I’m sure you would love them. They clarify the situation you ran into with calculus and a lot of other valuable tech about study – the kind of thing you are talking about when it comes to what is very useful in SCn. There’s a website where you can get sent a document of the whole Student Hat course, as well as many LRH lectures and most books. They are sent to you at your email address as attachments to the email. Here’s the link: http://www.stss.nl/
Just so you know, I might not be able to post many blog comments in the coming days due to a lack of time for a while. But I’ve enjoyed the comm cycle so far – thanks!
Hi,
Yes, there have been a number of occasions where I wished a thread was still more active. I’m guessing that it’s difficult partly for moderation reasons – and because everyone moves on so quickly.
It seems as though a case can be made that every development Hubbard “put out there”, he intended to be of use, if properly applied. And much of it most certainly seems to be important in a non-linear way, rather than just saying “I’m past that bit now”.
As for the “omniscience” comment, here’s what I read in SoS:
“Thus, no attempt to classify any level of mind alertness above the level of the aesthetic mind will be made beyond stating that these mind levels more and more seem to approach an omniscient status.”
And you could probably extrapolate something from the quote in D55!:
“Freedom is the absence of barriers. Less Freedom is the presence of barriers. Entirely minus-Freedom would be the omnipresence of barriers.”
I thought that I had seen a more direct quote but I can’t seem to find it.
I am also new to Games theory, but very much looking forward to getting my head wrapped around it.
It would be interesting to see whether long time Scientologists assert that the Bridge produces the state of Cleared Theta Clear. I know it’s said that it’s just a label, but isn’t it really what people should ideally be aiming for?
Yes I do associate more strongly with Buddhism, which is why I consider it an important question!
Thanks for the link – I do remember being there at one stage. 😉
By the way, that comment about Calculus was still part of LRH’s quote! I found it surprising. There seems to be such a discrepancy between quotes like that, and the way things have unraveled. I think that the only thing that’s going to change it for the best is an abundance of Theta.
Looking forward to your comments again when you’re not so busy!
It was ” routine” back in 1978 to very early 1980 for people to have attested to and demonstrated quite nicely such states as Theta Clear, Clear OT and Cleared Thetas Clear while on their N/OTs and the incredible L Rundown in the FSO during that time. I saw many of those things occur daily.. But in early 1980 a few people who came from “upper management” were sent into the FSO to see why there were not as many people on training that should be. They walked around the pool and the lounge areas and made an observation that was incorrect that the public were just playing games and being lazy and not taking it “seriously”. They false reported this back to LRH and the Reges were ordered to get those people on course while between sessions. The major flaw is the these people on mission did not investigate further. The majority of those people who were playing games were highly trained already being the Class V’s, Class 6 and CLASS 8 AUDITORS AND WERE FINALLY GETTING THE AUDITING THEY YEARNED FOR EVER SINCE THEY CAME INTO Scientology. They were being forced into doing courses they really did not need. This became an “Enforced Overt Have” So many of them just left and did not come back for a long time thus the stats crashed. By late 1980 some SPS were monkeying with the line up and it was “supposedly” said that LRH wanted the original N/OT Rundowns to now be placed on the Grade Chart into “NEW OT LEVELS AND THE “old” OT Levels were taken off the Bridge never to be seen again. The original N/OTs Rundowns were and are 29 different actions that make the being “Cause Over Life” after completing the Rundown.. Here is an important note about Rundowns. The purpose of a Rundown is to handle a problem the pc is having or Pre-OT is having to then finish it and get onto their NEXT action on the BRIDGE. They are not Grade Chart ACTIONS. N/OTs like the L Rundowns and Int Rundown have the same purpose. RUNDOWNS DO NOT GO ON THE BRIDGE. Now you might say then why did LRH allow this to happen? Well he did not .He was being kept busy and distracted with legal maters and was being false reported to during that time, So the S/Ps got busy screwing up the route out. He was also busy writing his fictional works too. There have been many times ever since 1950 of people altering the tech to destroy it and all of it done in the name of LRH. All one has to do is do his homework and see what I have written here is true.
Yes you are right about the Auditors Code. I was referring to people who used it as the moral code of a Scientologist I got the idea from those peole that one must not evaluate for anyone “even a lunatic”. This would be out of session in the general affairs of society.