Mark my words. Tony Ortega and his unnamed sources will rue this day when they declared Monique Rathbun as fair game and subjected her to intentional libel.
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Moving On Up a Little Higher 
What the hell is going on Marty?
Some of the people over there at Tony’s don’t like you much but then I don’t believe there is anyone that everybody likes.
The others are very concerned about your well being and that of your family.
More confused now than when I read the blog post at the UB. Still, from having read and enjoyed Texas Tropics, I think you know your way around the legal arena. Good luck with everything going on, Marty and Mosey.
I’m a regular reader of the Bunker but rarely wade through all the comments. More like glance at the headlines. However, I’ve never seen anything negative about Monique. Just the opposite in my experience. Sorry, just confused.
There is – and always has been – unwavering support for Monique among the Bunker community. Monique is liked and admired by all. Tony Ortega, on the other hand, is a journalist reporting facts which is very different to fair game.
Whatever you may be on, have a good day, Marty. Time will surely clarify things that now seems confused.
Simply wishing yourself and your family well.
I really hope this is a misunderstanding. I have respect to Tony as a journalist and yourself as a very brave man. Hopefully nothing has happened which will give Slappy McTinyfists a victory.
In Texas: A person may maintain an action for defamation only if:
(1) the person has made a timely and sufficient request for a correction, clarification, or retraction from the defendant; or
(2) the defendant has made a correction, clarification, or retraction.
So you’ll probably have to come out with what he did wrong. At least to him. Also, there’s a “reasonable man” argument to watch out for. Actual malicious intent must be present.
I have never heard – nor would I let it go without speaking on it – any thing negative about Monique. I hope whatever happened gets sorted out.
Best wishes to your and your family from San Francisco. I hope you’ll clarify if and when appropriate.
I kind of agree….Everyone loves Monique. Never seen a negative word about her, except from scientology thugs.
Is this about the comments made in the 3rd update on Bunker?
My heart goes out to you. I have watched your struggle against the cult, with horror and amusement at their insane antics. Obviously it has not been easy for you to endure the vicious fair game foisted on you at the hands of Miscavige.
Thank you for participating in Going Clear and for exposing Scientology.
As an individual, I am puzzled by your actions and this post. IMO, Tony Ortega and the bunker readers are in no way your enemies!
I sincerely wish you and Monique the very best outcome, no matter what action you feel you must take. I wish you healing and peace.
In my opinion, Tony Ortega typically skews the facts and/or accepts as truth the interpretations of others who do so.
Marty, I wish you and your family the peace they deserve. How you obtain that is for no one else to judge.
I dont understand what is going on here, but I love you guys and hope it straightens itself out.
Oh goodness gracious….. I hope this is not turning into a pro se case …..you know the old saying ‘the attorney who represents himself has a fool for a client’
I am not referring to Monique BTW……
I hope you are in the process of obtaining counsel….counsel that has been to real law school, not the David Miscavige School of Law.
Agreed. He also deletes comments that disagree with his worldview.
I am a never in and a daily reader of the UB. I have never read anything bad about Monique. Quite the opposite as a matter of fact she is well respected, We consider her to be a part of the team bringing down the COS. I have no opinion and no speculation on the legal issues. I just know that she is a smart woman with whom I hope gets what she wants. I also had a lot of respect for you as well. Of course, I regretted what you did in your past. The statement in the movie about how many tiny deaths you have endured touched me. I have defended you even though as a non-victim I really had no right . It is not right or productive to have petty remarks on blogs, that encourage discourse among groups working for the same ideal. You are a public figure ,like it or not, Tony is an interested scientology watching journalist. if you have issues deal with him he has his E-mail at his sight. I really hope that Moniques legal issues fall on her side and she is satisfied
Marty, I wish the best for you and Monique and your baby. I know you have both endured a lot from Captain Blackheart Miscavige, and I hope that your path to peace for your family is smooth.
At the same time, I read Tony’s blog regularly, and I do not think he is attacking or criticizing Monique. I think he sees her as I do, as a lovely and courageous woman.
“Mark my words. Tony Ortega and his unnamed sources will rue this day when they declared Monique Rathbun as fair game and subjected her to intentional libel.”
Can you say where TO and unnamed sources declared Monique fair game
and subjected her to Libel. No one apart from yourself seems to know what
this is about?
this is about.
Wish you, Monique and William all the best. The people at the bunker do too.
How about a brief statement to those that have supported you?
This is very confusing.
I hope things get put right and you are able to live your lives with peace and happiness. Much love to you, Mrs. Rathbun, and family.
While there have been a lot a commentary on the The Bunker the best thing to do is for all concerned to wish both yourself, Mosey and your child all the best for the future whatever that might hold. Peace is a commodity that is priceless and our world needs a lot more of it.
Without the truth all there is, is but delusion,
So there is nothing really real to lose by its pursuit.
https://arnielerma.wordpress.com/2015/10/07/the-master-manipulator/
PS: Reminder, it is ok to chat if you want a 2nd opinion from an nearly ancient warrior..
WTF?
I never commented on your blog before, but today I wanted to send love and support to you and Monique. Love to you. I wish you all the best.
Just my thoughts- sometimes when you’re under great stress it’s easy to not realize who your allies are. Monique is well regarded at the Bunker and everyone was rooting for her. Including Tony Ortega. There’s upset not towards her, but on her behalf. Everyone is worried that firing her lawyers will make her a sitting duck for the CoS. Everyone hopes that she will win and prevail against the cruelty that she’s suffered at the hands of Scientology.
Best of wishes to you and the family, Mark.
Only living in Marty and Mosey’s shoes and walking their full journey would bring understanding of current issues.
I want to acknowledge 2 incredible rulings gotten by the Rathbuns and their legal team.
#1 Squirrel Busting is not protected by 1st amendment and is harassment (Appellate ruling)
#2 Judge Waldrip calling Scientology inc a Business:
The Court concludes by a preponderance of the evidence demonstrates that CSI and its agents are “primarily engaged in the business of selling or leasing goods or services.”
JennyAtLAX and Fred G. Haseney completely agree with Rick Milam. Comments at the Bunker are sometimes just that, “comments,” but it’s Tony Ortega and his journalistic approach that makes us coming back time and time again. We’ve been following your journey and have always supported your great success, in and out of the courtroom.
A child changes your world! As all have said, everyone wants to see you, Monique and child have peace and happiness … and you are the only ones who can find it, so I’m just going to assume you have a plan a path to reach your joy.
Yes, there is much speculation at the UB but no hate, nothing other than great admiration for Monique and the graceful way she has handled all the harassment.
Everyone is worried as it appears that you are not represented by legal counsel because everyone wants to see you prevail and not get screwed over. I’m assuming she has a plan.
Best of luck!!
Have never seen this happen. Do you have an example?
My heartfelt best wishes to you Marty, Mosey and wonderful Billy. May you prevail with whatever your dreams are.
With love,
Windhorse
What is the point of this? It would probably be better if you omitted the oblique remarks and just said your piece about the matter at hand, IMO.
Well, it’s not my business. So I will just say, there is a lot of support for you and Monique and your son out there, as evidenced by the above comments. I hope that whatever decisions you two make about how this case goes forward, or not, it brings your family the peace and resolution you are looking for. But personally, I would really like to know what the hell is going on — this post just piques my curiosity.
well said Karen,
Bruce
All the best to you, Marty and Monique.
“What in the world is regarded as true, that by the saints is regarded as false, as it is, rightly, with perfect wisdom. What in the world is regarded as false, that by the saints is regarded as true, as it really is, rightly, in accordance with perfect wisdom.” – Buddha Gotama
Much Metta
George M. White
Marty and Mosey.. You know I have come here before.. always loved sparring with you Marty. I know you don’t know me from Adam. I have gathered with Bunkerites and Critics and I have seriously never heard an unkind word said about either of you.
I have only heard Tony encourage all of us to support you when you went to court.. I have had a beer with Tony and others and discussed our hopes that you are successful .. How Mosey being harassed was despicable..
Tony and the Bunker have shut down those critics who have gossiped or written untruths about Scientology or you /and or Rinder.
I do NOT presume to know what happened.. It is none of my business. May I just wish your family only the best. Thank you for posting Baby
marildi.. this simply is not true. I don’t want this turned into a Bashing Tony post. Please don’t.
I hope this development in the case means that you and your family are going to get some peace at last.
No doubt Ortega would rather see escalating conflict and enturbulation – he’s a journalist.
Hi Marty, I don’t yet know all the implications of what has happened. But it seems that you guys definitely have the COB (SOB) worried etc. In illogical situations, of course, illogical things tend to happen.Tony Ortega hates the CSI enough, so like a pendulum it will return in your favour and ultimately stay in your favour dude!If we can witness the last throws of the CSI and their toxic ‘leader’ all will have been worth it for billions of good beings that could do without that knarly intrusive alternative philosophy..Sending you and Monique powerfully happy vibes. Kurt
Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android
Bruce,
Are you the Bruce on the Miami to Clearwater flight?
George M. White
“No doubt Ortega would rather see escalating conflict and enturbulation – he’s a journalist.”
Please amplify your statement. Is this an attack on all journalists or just Tony?
Marty – there are a ton of us rooting for you and Monique. Would you explain?
Strangely it happened to me a couple of hours ago. I certainly can’t say why my post disappeared but it was somewhat critical of both Marty and the Bunker with a comment along the lines of sometimes I feel like it’s become a cult criticizing a cult. An exaggeration and the context is missing, as is the message.
Hello George – We had conversations back on Marty’s “Middle Path” post. I now have Buddhism and Taoism sites on my favorites bar and go there often for bits of wisdom.
Marty – I still go back and reflect on that post. It produced significant changes in my life. Thanks
That is the only thing I can see that could be offensive
Perhaps a re-read of the bunker Ie: Txlawyer inferring her action is akin to an insane person or prisoner’s action. You think that’s something nice to say? I don’t! If someone said that about my wife, I’d be extremely pissed.
I’m going to guess David Cooke feels that all journalists are ‘merchants of chaos’ and that psychs are from Farsec, etc etc……..
Even though Marty has said he heard a Hubbard speech outlining the need for a common enemy (i.e. journalists, psychs, etc), true believers still fall for Hubbard’s ‘generalities’.
I suggest you check again. I have never known Tony or his mods delete comments nor have I ever heard this complaint until this very moment.
Wishing your family the best through this hard time. You guys deserve some peace. Just keep doing your thing and dont let anyone get you down.
Dear Monique and Marty, how I hope this is a temporary setback, and you will hire a new legal team (or re-hire the old one) to pursue this case. You, of all people, should know ANY “settlement” with the Co$ is a deal with the devil, and they will never honor it. Most bunkerites love Monique and would wish only the best for her. Set up an account (including PayPal) and ask for donations for your legal expenses. MANY bunkerites (and others) would contribute. We want you and Monique to succeed, more than we want the Co$ to fail. The ONLY REASON the Co$ makes deals or settlements is if they know they will lose. They will lose, and you will win, but only you pursue it. Making a settlement will allow the evil to persist for many more years. Many more years of enslaved Sea Ogres, Execs in the Hole, out-tech, fair gaming, attacking squirrels, disconnections, OSA, etc. Please do the right thing, and pursue the case! If you want help from bunkerites or freezoners, just ask! We want to help!
No. Because it is unequivocally false. Tony is absolutely loathe to interfere with the comments on his blog, which I find frustrating at times. However, the Disqus system is notorious for disappearing comments on a very active post. If you check your personal Disqus profile, it will tell you if a comment has actually been removed. I know because it has happened to me, on another site that uses Disqus. They don’t just disappear if the moderator removes them. If you don’t see “this comment has been removed” on the particular comment, then it is just caught in the switches. Refresh a couple of times, and you will likely see it.
Marty, we are all on the same side. From what I can see, no one is attacking Monique. Let’s not feed the Scientology propaganda machine.
Please.
From a friend.
Hi Marty. I’m a “Never In” too. Agree with Millie. Go for yourself and check out the comments. Seems to me everyone there is pulling for you and your wife.
Best of luck Marty, I would think most in The Bunker wish you the best.
Hope you win your suit against the Church. – Mike
Hi Marty:
Like a lot of the folks above, you don’t know me from Adam…and I only know you from your posts and what was written. I lurk at the bunker and I just want you to know whatever decision you make, we wish you the best.
Not that you need ANYONE’s approval, but you and your wife deserve some peace and closure and a chance to live your life.
I know some of us were disappointed because we wanted to see the church face some accountability for it’s actions, but we have to remember that you are both human beings…not weapons. You don’t owe us anything. We owe you for sharing your experiences and the unique insights that you give.
…and we owe Monique big time for the raw bravery and incredible strength to bring this suit and fighting it so far. She gave the folks that would harass you a bloody nose and sent them scuttling back to their rocks.
I don’t speak for the Bunker…I’m just one man, a never-in, but I do wish your family a happy ending to this ugly situation.
-b
Hi Marty. I have not been an active blogger in your or Tony’s blogs over the years. But I do read both of your posts daily or when available. Both of you have been instrumental in helping me to leave the cult of Scientology over the years. I sincerely thank you and Tony for that. I read and bought all of your books and admire your courage and wisdom tremendously. But I am really saddened by your post today. I agree with everyone that I too saw only positive support from Tony and the UB community over the years towards you and Monique. I sincerely hope DM has not successfully third-partied you and Tony Ortega. I do wish you and Monique the best. Once again I can’t thank you enough for what you had done for me.
I don’t know what this is about but I do know that you wouldn’t make a public statement of this nature without due cause. Please give specifics when you are able.
Love and support from Sam and the girls.
Many are rooting for you guys. I have no idea what is going on but don’t think it’s fair for all of us to be chirping re what is none of our business.
Perhaps u have to write an update if Ortega did report accurate facts
(Ortega should skip the B.S. Updates that are not based on accurate info and seem to be subjective and provoking)
I trust you guys know exactly what you are doing. Hope you’ll succeed and get Scientology Inc on their knees.
(You know the saying: ‘in the absence of data you get crap’.)
Anyone inside or outside the C.O.S. who labels anyone as “fair game” automatically labels themselves as an anti Scientology, anti social idiot.
Appreciation, Responsibility, Fact and Faith i.e. ARCU
John Lester – Aberdeen UK
> We consider her to be a part of the team bringing down the COS.
That is a bold assumption, and may be part of the problem. The way I see this, she never wanted part of any such team. And she has no obligations of any kind.
> I really hope that Moniques legal issues fall on her side and she is satisfied
Then again, this.
I didn’t plan on writing any long smartass comment today as usual, just was going to find the post I agree most with and this is it.
Rick, in my four years + following Tony’s work, I have only ever seen him interfere with poster’s comments when they are extremely aggressive and crude towards women (except for one poster who posted video after video after video and was repeatedly asked to stop). This has happened maybe 5 times in as many years, I saw no evidence of moderation happening today (the comment space is usually retained with the text “this comment has been deleted”) Do you post frequently with Disqus?
keep
calm
and
win
this!
Tony is Tony…. Tony and facts=ok,but Tony and opinions=Notok.
BIG hello from LRHs Bulgravia.
Rick Milam – Two weeks ago I found myself chanting with the crowd on a blog. A still-in had the guts to post counter arguments and for the most part I agreed. I thanked him for commenting and acknowledged his viewpoints. No more chanting for me.
yes.
big hello from LRHs Bulgravia.
P.S. why do you lie here? comments are deleted almost daily…
+1 on this, Dr. Faust.
Very confused by these events, but hopeful that you and your family are able to prevail in a manner which will allow you to live your lives free of harassment. All the best to you, Monique, and your family.
I wonder about the hand of OSA in bringing this apparent conflict about.
Tony Ortega micromanages all comments on his blog. He never publish anything that challenges his view. Speaking of experience here.
The sun rises fresh each morning, another bright new day ahead, giving no thought to the day that came before. Simply wishing you and your sweet family the best in the days ahead.
Youve taken it out of context. No one has ever said one bad thing about monique. At least nothing i have ever read. And most of the comments about marty wish him well with his family and look more toward the future than the past. As far as the ‘actions of a prisoner,’ thats perhaps a comment about what long term harassment, spying, false arrests, the inability of the COS to move forward does to a person. Ive re read the comments, and i think you are just trying to stir up trouble
That’s utter nonsense. He doesn’t approve or publish comments, they simply appear.
I have seen that he is more than happy to enter into debate and disagree, but that is not micro management.
John,
What if I’m anti-scientology, but not anti-social?
The ‘idiot’ is a matter of opinion….
Correct me if I’m wrong, but wasn’t Tony Ortega the guy in the documentary who was against Scientology?
Oh really Keith? BS. The comments on Tony’s blog are totally open. The only comments that ever get removed are spam, offensive/personal attacks or posts from sci trolls that come back and delete their own comments. You can challenge Tony’s view all you want…it does happen over there. I am speaking from my experience of reading TO for years and actively posting the last couple years under this same name I am using here.
Marty,
I have to completely disagree with you. You miss the bigger issues, namely that this is bigger than you or I or Scientology. You’re lawsuit helps to pave the way for others to sue this organization for their malfeasance. You’re attorneys have done well and Miscaviage is running out of ammo. Unfortunately, you will never get your life back as it once was. The best you can do is keep fighting the good fight and realize that it’s not just Scientology you’re up against. It’s state sponsored and endorsed corruption.
I strongly advise you to retain your attorneys.
Nice move.
No offensive intent meant for any involved on the plaintiffs side.
Tony didn’t have to quote some “legal contributor’s” radical interpretation. At best, it was a poor judgement call on his (Tony’s) part – and at worst it was another example of journalism “based upon sensationalism and crude exaggeration,” i.e. yellow journalism.
Keith, you have to be pretty offensive to get a post blocked by Tony. What did you say exactly?
A commenter on Tony’s site posted her address change.
I cannot imagine the tectonic forces that you have been subjected to by Miscavige’s agents.
I wish you, and your beautiful family, love and happiness, and I am thankful that you have helped many other families find the same.
But Tony Ortega is not your enemy, Marty.
Not so in my experience. You just hit enter on the comment on Tony’s blog and it appears immediately. You even have an opportunity to go back and edit it. I know others see the comment immediately because sometimes within seconds someone will have clicked “like” on my comment. So, Rick, you are incorrect as far as I can see.
I have to say I read UB regularly and have never seen anything negative about Monique, unless you count UB raising questions about a decision to fire Monique’s attorneys without cause. Still, that just seems like reporting, certainly not fair-gaming, and I and apparently many others would like to understand what is going on, since we have followed the case since the beginning.
Apologies — I was responding to Keith, not Rick.
Marty,
I know you’re not fool man and Tony really just is after a Story at any cost without first getting the facts straight.
He knew exactly was he was doing when he unleashed the bomb and what the consequences of his Actions would be.
If he would have had any decency he would have had the urgency to understand the Motive of Monique as he did in other stories. But this time he just lost his ratio and selfcontrol and is widly speculating and this really can hurt. And as you said he will regret this day.
I really can understand your post.
I hope and wish that your Family nevertheless is doing well.
You have with, your Actions, helped thousands of People to get back their minds.
Life is beautiful, enjoy it and don’t care about all those wild speculations.
You’re right Karen. There wasn’t any urgency to tell the news and then wildly speculate about what it could mean.
We will have the answers soon enough and I just feel gratitude for what Marty and Monique have done.
They are no fools, as many People think now.
No not just Facts but rumours , even in the title of the Story.
Many People commenting here didn’t realize that this blog still exists and still the welcome page exists and the title still is:
” Moving On Up a Little Higher”
LOL
Hey Rog. It is nice to hear from you, engaged as ever.
Hi Sam and girls!
Marty,
Be the report from the “Bunker” true or bunk, it is a sad betrayal that Tony would throw Monique and you under the bus the way he did for a sensational headline after everything you have done for him. What a jerk.
Karl
Everyone just needs to just chill out, and remember who the bad guys real are.
I need to vent about that site. Yes Tony Ortega is a “journalist”, but that does not give him the right to report news on a private matter without Marty or this wife’s consent especially for something as sensitive as a lawsuit against a criminal organization. He could have waited for Marty to clarify. There is an increasing problem at the Bunker its becoming a bit cultish over there. I used to read Tony’s stuff since the village voice, and noticed that change. If you comment something against there views you will be harassed and called a troll or OSA not to mention some of them are coming from celebrity gossip websites, so they really don’t value privacy of who they consider “public figures”. They constantly posting irrelevant gossip items, and cheesy embarrassing Photoshopped pictures that looks like forwards for grandma, and not one of them is as funny as they think they are. Not all of them are bad. Their are ex- Scientologists that I learned for a lot from them and admire, but Tony’s cite needs a lot of cleaning up. Finally watch them prove me right by calling me a Scientologist. They don’t take criticism well.
50% of the Bunkerites ~ if not more ~ are Anonymous without previous connection to Scientology. You can find the same cheesy and irrelevant comments and photoshops on WWP. They are irrelevant because the posters have no own Scientology experiences.
Speaking of 50% or almost 50% contingency PLUS non-waived attorney fees equals nothing left for plaintiffs.
Class actions don’t pay either.
Attorneys make cash, not their clients.
Yeah Marty
but only in just causes…
in some years we will meet, have a beer and somee good laughs and stories. This is my wish
‘He could have waited for Marty to clarify’. My point exactly.
Ortega acted irresponsibly in this case.
Sorry Marildi, but talk about yellow journalism, someone is too far out of touch. However, good to see you again and your usual comments.
When I first read Tony’s blog today I thought that you and Monique would have planned the actions correctly in order to properly end this legal action.
I am sure all will be in yours and Monique’s benefit. Wish you both the best.
I agree with i-Betty. The Bunker community has always supported Monique. With the recent news, most comments are just speculation and trying to understand, also, are on your side, Marty and Monique.
Not true!
True!
I’m with Baby on this. We have admired you and Monique’s courage a long time now. Whatever you do, know you have full support from most all commenters.
Hey, Dee. Been a long time. Good to see you too.
Hi Richard!
That’s great. There is a great deal of information out there. Glad to hear that you enjoyed Marty’s post so much.
I have been doing daily meditation but I have been unable to keep up with the six hour routine that I had going. No worry, the quality has improved.
Much metta, (loving-kindness)
GMW
I’m of the belief that it is best to let people decide FOR THEMSELVES what the best actions for their lives are. I don’t plan on justifying my life decisions to others anymore and I don’t think Marty and Monique Rathbun need to justify their decisions either.
Hey Mike … for the old days! (Berman here)
I know lots of folks at the Underground Bunker have supported you for years. I don’t know what is the cause of any conflict with Tony Ortega or anyone else there but people almost universally have hoped you would win against the Scientology cult in your legal efforts. I hope you can talk to Tony Ortega and resolve any issues with actual communication.
I agree with Mickey, Tony Ortega has become more and more cultish himself with often harassive type articles.
Hi Marty and clan. Just caught up. We’ve got your backs just as you’ve always had ours. Good karma to you all. When this is all over we’re going fishing again! X
Notice to Bunkeroos: I am trashing all further comments carrying over opinion and advocacy that zealous minds on that forum apparently automatically convert into fact.
I wish you would or could fill the vacuum that the dismissal created. Hope all is well.
What does that even mean? You have taken a very public stand, watched by tens of thousands of people who mostly don’t know you and cannot understand any more than you permit. Don’t act surprised and outraged now to discover that your actions are on public record. Your actions look to help your enemies very much and to attack your friends, which puzzles and concerns those who wish you well.
Nothing but love from this Bunkeroo. I wish you both the best in life and offer you this delicious bread pudding recipe that I use for family get-togethers. Enjoy.
http://allrecipes.com/recipe/9418/bread-pudding-i/?internalSource=recipe%20hub&referringId=14443&referringContentType=global%20nav
Marty,please do a “drop a mic” on this. this is hurting you more and more.
Just do a new post that will shut up critics on Tony’s bar and theirs versions on/of a story….. Take care of your family , and enjoy life.
Big hello from LRHs Bulgravia.
Tony Ortega Mod BosonStark • a minute ago
I’m saying that based on my reporting, Ray was never given an offer to consider, particularly one that had conditions like you’re describing. Take it or leave it.
Lol. The church of the scis certainly knows enough about ‘yellow journalism,’ harassment, sensationalism, and crude exaggeration. I dont think it was exaggerating to consider that people who are continually attacked and harassed and mentally assulted make counter productive decisions. Sorry if the cherch doesnt want to look atbthe resul of its own handiwork.
Circumstances and the actions of the cherch forced that. Your comment is nonsensical
Dear Monique and Marty
I guess I should say at the outset I’m a never-in and only became aware of you through youtube and Tony Ortega’s website after stories about Scientology in Basel, Switzerland (I live over here). I’ve never, ever commented on either but was moved by your stories. Whatever has happened to bring you to this decision, I wish you and your son well and hope that the future brings you peace. You have fought the good fight, and no one can fault you for doing what you need to do now.
Much love and peace to your family.
Oh please! Monique and Marty have been fair gamed on that blog for the last several days. Just look at the headlines begging people to give it up, comment, debate, dub in, hallucinate, list, and criticize, nebulous mental meanderings by the author.
It has happened to me on MANY occasions. My comments have been deleted by the moderator. Do I have an example?
Discussion on The Underground Bunker 1029 comments
A perplexing tale about Bob Duggan, the richest Scientologist in the world
theoracle
theoracle a year ago
Removed
Maybe not everyone is capable of making the kind of responsible parenting decisions Tony is.
SEE THE WORD REMOVED? It shows up in a red box in your archives.
Just look at the headlines on the blog.’ Monique fires attorneys !!!! Why this was SOOOO wrong:!!!!!!
He just gives one little piece of data, throws everyone in MYSTERY, gets them to list and list, and list and list……….
Hints at injustice and reckless stupidity. Fills in the missing items with his own items………….
Hey, Einstein, without never-in’s like myself joining the fight against the evil cult, you ex’s and in’s stay insulated and so small that the “cherch” never goes away. Politicians listen to constituents, and you want as many of us as you can get.
It is Monique’s law suit.
Monique has not made a public statement. And is not required to by law.
Monique has a history of managing her affairs in a competent and effect manner.
If Monique has not submitted a report to Tony about her current goals, purposes, plans and targets, that is her prerogative. Tony is not a party on the law suit. He is a spectator that criticizes. He is neither a legal expert.
If Tony wants to use his blog to speculate on the matter with no comment from anyone that is a party, because he is only a speculator in this matter, that is his prerogative.
If he wants to publicly harass the Rathbuns with his blog until they are forthcoming with a report for him, that is also his prerogative.
Anyone who is curious about experiencing, planning and directing a law suit, can initiate one of their own.
Tony’s use of words like “FIRE”, or other buttons he chooses to push, are the choices he makes, to illicit reactions and comments to his blog. These are not words used by anyone else that has been a party to the law suit. These are not reports coming from Monique or the people that are party to the law suit.
What you can know about, is that Marty has published a new book and it is one of the best books I have ever read. There has been no mention of this on Tony’s blog. If you want to know more about Marty’s mind, please pick up a copy and leave a review. Contribute to some positive motion and give yourself some pleasure moments. Good memories are all about you to made and carry with you into the infinity.
Really? How many of those concerned have purchased a copy of Marty’s new book? And left a review?
A few get it, most don’t
Norton
A few get it, most don’t
Best wishes to you and your family.
Marty – was it a break in A, R or C, my brother?
Peace to you and your family
Hi Marty, Never a dull moment… I don’t know anything about what’s going on, but I do know that you and Mosey are extremely intelligent. You have a reason and a plan. No doubt. Wishing you success. Amy & Mat
“He could have waited for Marty to clarify.” Aren’t we all waiting for a clarification? Including Tony.
These two comments above, imply that Marty is oblivious, has some law suit of his own in progress, makes mistakes, and is confused.
All based on no comment from anyone that is a party to this legal cycle, no information other than a court paper filed, no personal contact with anyone involved, no understanding of person history of current conditions, no legal degrees.
Which makes these comments and evaluations and invalidation worth what? = Two old ladies over reacting to gossip, tabloids, social stimulus and their own excitable natures to contribute to chaos and add to it in a way that makes the dish water even murkier than it already is.
A paper filed in a Texas Court is a lame corner stone for a witch hunt.
Tranquila, not.
“I have to say I read UB regularly and have never seen anything negative about Monique, unless you count UB raising questions about a decision to fire Monique’s attorneys without cause.”
How would anyone here know that Monique did something “WITHOUT CAUSE”? Because Tony said so?
That came from Tony Ortega. He put that out there.
This isn’t the first time. Tony Ortega can switch from friendly to ruthless and abusive as it serves his purpose.
He published very private information on his blog about Marty’s family with out any regards about their child and what the parents wanted for that child in terms of burdens with knowledge.
He very publicly trashed one of Marty’s books which was a MEMOIR! A memoir is a record of a person’s memories. How do you trash that? It was not an autobiography. Tony trashed it in a public review because it didn’t contain enough dirt.
Tony is a loose cannon as a friend. He can swing around and target you in an instant with full regard for himself, and zero regard for you. Which means, he really isn’t a friend.
The last few days he just piggy backed on Monique to keep his circus open.
Marty is not longer a part of the CoS, so it’s no longer mandatory to purchase something to indicate support or concern.
Do you mean all four people that purchased his new book and left a review?
How about the ton of people rooting for Marty buy a copy of his latest book on Amazon and leave a review?
I didn’t read anywhere where Monique announced this as a set back. She does not have a history of self sabotage. Maybe you should try to recall what you were doing when you first got this idea planted in your head.
Why do we have to buy a book to be concerned?
Hi GMW! – Great job on handling the “downstat” on “hours meditated”. (smile) A bit of wisdom I picked up on one of the sites and which might apply here is “Remembering to thank one’s friends”.
Thanks for the definition and Much Metta back at ya. Richard
P.S. Setting aside the legalese.
Hi Marty – I hope you’re out fishing or typing up your next novel! I don’t know what Monique likes to do for fun but I hope she’s doing a lot of it too. Best, Richard
After reading several comments on various forums I would like to point out a few facts.
1. Monique and Marty have in no way been a liability to their “legal team”. Debbie Cook was a client referred to that lawyer and a settlement was reached. She was referred by Marty.
2. Do not confuse your goals and purposes with Monique’s. She was forced to relocate many times and tortured with domestic terrorism for years. She was forced to push back to survive.
She did get a restraining order issued on the Church and David Miscavige. Miscavige has a criminal record now. Monique does not have contract with any “side” out here to perform. She does not owe it to Tony Ortega, or anyone else, to explain herself, her life, her reasons.
Monique is qualified to speak for herself. I doubt one person commenting on this situation has had a conversation with her. What is disappointing to Tony, may not disappoint Monique. If Tony has misemotional attitudes about her choices, maybe he should consider the fact that they do not have the same goals and purposes. Neither does he have any of her responsibilities. Neither was he the constant target she was. Tony is a performer, and entertainer. Monique is a care provider. Monique is a mother and a wife. She has different purposes than Tony Ortega, and different values to people.
She had to share her husband, her life, her strife, and her sanity with the disenfranchised for YEARS while being a target unjustly.
It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to see how Marty’s “friends and associates” come and go according to their wants and needs, not HERS and her husband’s.
She / they devoted YEARS at personal sacrifice, to bring order into chaos in this theater. To being truth and sanity into total madness and corruption.
Even during much of that time they were targets for slander by spectators, and experienced much treason from “friends and associates”.
She ‘ they do not owe anything to anyone out here.
By the time Marty published his first novel and all of his “friends and associates”, all four of them it seems, picked up his book and left a review, even I had a realization about the transient nature of “friendship, allies, and support” in this arena.
How long is this cycle of action supposed to go on for her? Until Ortega has ten more scoops to report and the fragile support can see someone deliver another blow to the Church? Which as far as I know, neither of these are even her goals or purposes.
Frankly, I hope she ends cycle on this chapter as fast as possible and uses the rest of their life to create good memories for them to take into eternity. Miscavige sucks energy and life out of everyone around him. The spectators and participants pay daily with their attention, lives, ideas, and promise. Why should she too?
It is over when she says it is over, because she can start, change, and stop things.
Standing ovation Monique!
P.S. It’s not everyone’s thing to rubber neck at a train wreck day in and day out. Some people like to move on down highway They have dreams, hopes……
Perhaps SOB got to Tony and he was eventually bought too, to a greater or lesser degree. I mean OF COURSE that could happen; critics of the CSI becoming opposed or quite bias perhaps. Damaging comments by Ortega but KARMA is gonna bite him in the ass. Overt-motivator sequence or whatever we wish to call it. Humanity’s unseen ‘balancer’ will be sat on his shoulders, however light or heavy his conscience is.Kindest and warmest wishes for you and all of us, Kurt and family Thailand
Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android
After the years of Hell he put you through, I hope you got enough money from Davy to justify giving up your right to free speech. Peace.
A restraining order does not translate into a criminal record.
David Miscavige does not have a criminal record. As a violent midget mighy say “that’s false data”.
I’m afraid you’ve missed the point Oracle. No one has said Monique owes anyone anything.
What Marty’s book had to do with anything is beyond me…..do you think everyone who comments at Tony’s blog has bought his book?
excellent comment !
I always thought that The Oracle is Marty’s Dr Hide….
Big hello from LRHs Bulgravia.
So nothing further than this opening salvo or ‘rueing a day’ when this or that allegedly happened? That’s all everyone gets? People have supported both sites and both bloggers for years. People have helped both of you in your efforts and now a bizarre threat and then silence?
I guess we will never know the truth but if these guys want to leave it like this, it will go down as Marty blinked and the church won….again. What a shock.
Hopefully everything is ok with Marty and Monique and they’ve found some peace in all of this public nonsense. The supporters of these blogs will just have to speculate and get it wrong until someone mans up and spills.
I’ll tell you who is loving this; The OSA. The dream of enturbulating the field’s go to sites is being done by each other. Handing an upset to the OSA free of charge.
I’ll tell you how wise beings disperse darkness. They first stop demonizing each other and resolve issues with old fashion communication and love.
If trust is broken, heal the break. Healing broken communication is something Scientology sucks at because it creates division.
To deal a blow against the OSA and Ronbots. Resolve this issue and show the world that our capacity to have a sane world is done by common people with common good intentions.
I don’t care whose right or wrong. I’m watching how conflict is resolved.
That’s the real issue for me, as a watcher of the scio drama.
Unless of course this is a planned ruse, creating a smoke screen for some other unknown outcome.
Enemies, enemies enemies. Neutralize, realize and move on up a little higher.
You guys are really on the same team.
Polarizing as pro Marty, against Marty, for Tony, against Tony;
Is an old story. A story much more easy to tell than a story of conscious resolution through the desire to have love and understanding as the outcome.
But if fighting, revenge having hurt feelings is the purpose, my words are part of the enemy. And I am an idiot.
I pray for an adult resolution on all levels.
On the other hand, I do not know the stress of life you guys are under. And it’s easy for me to be on the high horse when I do not really know much.
All I can do is wish you well and wish all well. This bump in the road is getting attention. How it resolves will be a testimony to the knowledge and spiritual maturity of all involved.
Who will take the high road? Who will control the outcome? Is revenge the motive? Or is Understanding?
I don’t see anything on UB that I would consider remotely close to being libelous. Just the occasional updates on the court case. Are you referring to comments he made elsewhere? This is very puzzling.
Please don’t alter is my meaning. I never mentioned CofS or mandatory purchases. If you didn’t get my meaning no point in my going on. I no longer work in the C of S and it is not my hat to enlighten people.
“Will a restraining order show up on my criminal record?
A restraining order will appear on your criminal record. Although a restraining order is a civil order, whenever someone runs your record for probation, employment, or immigration purposes, it will show that someone had or has a restraining order against you.”
The rest of your accusations,, also rely upon your personal education.
http://www.avvo.com/legal-guides/ugc/restraining-order-massachusetts
Monique, this reply is to you. Over the years I have respected the strength and love you have shown Marty during this horrific journey you both have been on. I know your brightest spot has been your son! I know, I have a son too.
I also know from experience that “normal” life can pose many challenges to a marriage. I can’t even imagine the stress and destruction Miscavage’s antics have placed on both of you. I hope you are surrounding yourself with people who love you and are trustworthy.
There are many of us who don’t know you, but hold you in high esteem. Many of us may say stupid things about your situation. For that I am sorry. However, most of us do have good intentions and wish we could somehow continue to show our support and help you both as you have had to make many difficult decisions. Know you are very loved.
The only thing I would like to add is that I would hate to see division among your supporters caused by OSA or any other Scion entity. Your family comes first in the scheme of things and I imagine your first priority is to protect your son and marriage. That is a good thing and don’t let anyone distract you from this goal.
BTW, Oracle-throwing money at the situation (ie the book) will not solve the problem. Your rants seem to divisive and shows no compassion for Monique. Marty’s book has nothing to do with their difficult situation.
As one woman to another, trust your mama bear instinct and know there are many mama bears who support you. All my love, Ann
Oracle my friend, I have a law degree from an ACCREDITED US law school and passed the Illinois Bar exam and am admitted to practice law in the State of Illinois.
(I applied to Sequoia University School of Law, but was denied)
I don’t know why a civil TRO would should up in a criminal background search, but that does not mean it is a criminal conviction.
The same thing would apply if (for example) I was ordered by a court to pay back child support (deadbeat parents scenario).
That type of court order might show up in a background check, but that still does not make me a criminal.
And, Marty correct me if I am wrong, but the restraining order was 1) temporary and 2) not against Miscavige personally, but was against the Squirrel Busters and the PIs (?)
Though I will admit I do not know the exact parameters of the order.
Marty, I haven’t read or commented on your blog for a long time. I’ve been reading and commenting regularly on Mike’s since March of 2013. Today I’m here to give you my thanks once more for the blog you started which I read for years while UTR – the blog where I lurked for nearly 2 years before I even had the courage to post my own comments under another name. Back then, while UTR, I read your blog every day. I depended on it. From your articles I learned, healed, and strengthened. From what you wrote and from the comments posted I mustered courage and safe-pointed myself to leave the Church of Scientology after 25 years. By reading your blog I was able to sort out and handle my doubts, fears and misunderstandings. This is what you did for me, and its huge. I won’t ever forget it. Thank you..
The comment from Cindy above is not me, the other Cindy.
yes George
You “Never-ins” are so smart, aren’t you? Ortega, Bunkeroos and Anonymous are nothing but noise and politicians know it. Noise isn’t a product. Anyone can do it. I agree with Walking the Walk, except that 75% of all Bunkeroos have no first hand experience with Scientology.
Marty, you are part of the rebel alliance and a traitor.
You will be fair gamed forever. Now you have to live with it because you quit.
Fuck you Marty
Can we have some two way comm? Or a conversation?
Oracle, Michael Fairman, Mark?
Sorry, I’m one of those that don’t get it?
+1
Silence has two sides …. creates a mystery sandwich and conversely is a sane place to hold your own counsel, without opening something up for discussion and all the myriad of flows from others.
Yes, I am curious BUT hold your own space and council. Best to you and yours and may you soon exit from all the crazy drama and have much happiness plus peace.
Every point you bring up is irrelevant. People with nothing to say deflect. Noisemakers have exacted change throughout history. Clue in – it is how this very nation was founded. Whether politicians “know it” or not, nothing has been done about it to this point. How has that worked out thus far? They will only do something if it helps the largest possible group of citizens — which (don’t look now) includes significantly more never-ins than in’s and ex’s combined worldwide. And we have as much right to be offended by and ashamed of this blight on America as anyone else.
Beamer got a very good point. Where are the American politicians who trust Anonymous, Ortega or the Bunkeroos, Never-In? Didn’t I read that the authorities have their beef with Anonymous? Get real: nobody needs you or listens to you as you lack insider knowledge and wear stupid little masks.
LOL!! Well – SOMEONE had to say it! LOL!!
Texas Lawyer said the phrase ” Without cause” was lawyer speak
for saying they will still get paid. This was partt of the paper filed in court.
{00095966}
̶
2
̶
1.
Monique Rathbun has discharged the undersigned attorneys without cause. Accordingly, the undersigned attorneys seek to withdraw as counsel for Ms. Rathbun in these proceedings
” without cause” was written on the attorney withdrawal document. Public information.
One thing I can’t figure out about this mess with all the speculation is, why did it happen like it did? Marty and Monique were aware that Tony try’s to post breaking news about anything that comes up in the scientology vs. wog world, and the ongoing court case in Texas was one of the top attention magnets of all the court cases going on. This case and the Laura DeCrescenzo case were two of the most focused upon happenings in the US. How could the fact that this action between Monique and her lawyers would not get Tony’s attention become breaking news immediately upon it being made public? If an email had been sent out to Tony stating that some startling was going to come out and needed to be kept low profile for the time being, I believe this may have turned out much differently. I believe Tony would have played it down and presented it in a manner that the bunker would have followed suit and not been so quick to jump to all the guessing or innuendo. I do not mean to say Monique has to check in and run everything past Tony. I am saying that some of this response must have been expected.
Dear Ann, please do not undermine or degrade me, my indicating my pointing out, the lack of support, as “throwing money at it”. It has NOTHING to do with MONEY MONEY MONEY.
It has to do with giving a friend a HAND UP. Encouragement. Support. To PAY IT FORWARD with a show of support.
After the YEARS Marty and Monique spent on the FRONT LINES taking the ABUSE and DOMESTIC TERRORISM 24/7, I would think an show of support in the other direction from their “friends and supporters” would warrant some help with Marty getting his new career up and off the ground.
Do you know how any people HAVE a life and a career because of their sacrifices? How many people are free to practice, or communicate, because they took the heat?
When the only contribution that comes back is through some motion of your little fingers on your FUCKING KEY BOARD, in the way of a post on a blog, it is none of your FUCKING business Monique decides sitting in the middle of a legal flap.
The couple dollars profit on a book is DIDDLY SQUAT! That a few people here think that is some issue, is repelling to me.
If you are going to root for someone, get up off your ass and push some power. Your attitudes do not shift forces for Monique.
You just went all over the place with this. I never said the word “criminal conviction”. I provided the link that clarified this matter. Congrats on your law degree. You would make a fine prosecutor.
Must be awfully dark and sticky inside your heads to carry the ill will and rock slams forward on an hourly basis. If it wasn’t Marty you were trying to harm, it would be somebody else you know. It will travel with you throughout time. The purpose to harm, attack, suppress. You will just locate new targets. You are committed to the purpose, not the target.
I agree with what Aquamarine said. I also want to thank Marty for starting and running this blog. It helped me when I started my own investigation of the church and subsequently decided to leave it. It helped me after I came out. I depended on it every day and it helped me heal. And maybe we’ll never know the full story of why the dismissing of your lawyers etc, but as Hy Levy (RIP) told me himself, “Marty has done so much good in shedding light on the evil that he has more than made up any damage done while he was in the church as DM’s right hand man.” That was what Hy said and I agree.
Ray Charles could see the malicious intent on that blog today (2/5/2016).
Can you count how many people he fair gamed today?
http://tonyortega.org/2016/02/05/scientology-is-the-bomb-diggety-and-heres-proof-starring-leah-reminis-husband/#more-28375
I don’t know who the “Oracle” is. But sir or madam, hats off to you. I have never seen someone both show support for, and yet troll, the same blog at once.
Bravo!
I agree with MR’s comment. Of course your supporters are curious, but only you and Monique have the insight to know who to trust and will help you through this difficult journey.
Keep you eyes on your goals and of course most importantly your beautiful son. No matter what Miscavage does, he does not have the power to destroy what you and Monique have built together. I have learned that having a child totally changes life’s priorities. From here on out, I am sure every step you take will be in his best interest! Best wishes! Ann
He starts by fair gaming Leah Remini’s husband, after he piggy backed on her for how many scoops?
https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=leah%20remini%20tony%20ortega
I am your friend. I will always be.
Family guy:
I love you too
Yo Brothers, just two cents. I’ve had some 2 min meditation more powerful than 5 hrs meditation. Although it is true that practice makes perfect and long meditation is important to make headway into the inner regions, sometimes it’s the short ones that blast open perception. Also maybe it’s true that all the work on the longer ones prepares for the great short ones.
Just thought I’d blab some blabable words. 🙂
Oracle, It doesn’t seem very helpful to the Rathbuns to attack and curse those of us who are supportive of their efforts. They are having to make some difficult decisions and your anger detracts from those who want to see the Rathbuns get peace and justice.
I am sorry if I offended you, but you had aggressively criticized others who may or may not have bought Marty’s book five separate times before I wrote. I don’t see how your anger helps the Rathbuns in any way.
I also wish you peace as I can tell you have a lot of compassion towards the Rathbuns. This is not a competition. I think most people here have followed the Rathbuns journey for years and would like to see a positive outcome. If anyone deserves your wrath, it is LRH, Miscavage, and the horrible impact they have had on many lives. Monique, keep strong!
Hello survivor:
I am with you. Damn
I am so proud to have you in my life
This is my gift:
I wish more people had the sense and humility to realize the inherent truth that lies in this comment, notwithstanding their own personal agenda or background that drives their thinking.
This
Hey, can’t a person ask a question?
If it wasn’t for the debbie cook email, and subsequently landing on Marty’s blog and reading all the coming out stories, I wouldn’t be here.
You gots to figure, if one had wrote many books about their involvement in scientology, and even was part of a big documentary, why questions will be asked.
Even the Hubbard who wanted to smash his name into history, did he not think somebody, some historian, or investigative journalist would investigate and write books about the fellow?
Shoot, in scientology, most of the so called tech is in materials called Hubbard PL’s & Hubbard Techical bulletins and Hubbard lectures.
Like I said, I just thought to ask a question. And my life is not on hold waiting for the answer.
One could answer me with I’m not gonna the question, or none of your business, or whatever. It’s all good,
I’m already out so whatever. And I do thank you for that, Marty. Thumbs up.
Oracle,
You said ‘criminal record’. One cannot have a criminal record without a criminal conviction.
Think it through…….most restraining orders are temporary. Does that make David Miscavige a ‘temporary criminal’?
Just because something shows up in a background check does give one a criminal record.
Not to mention the fact that the TRO may not have even covered MISCAVIGE. (IIRC it covered the Squirrel Busters and the PIs).
Seems like you may have left scientology but have not left the mindset……everyone you disagree with is a criminal.
Oracle, we can’t be degraded by anyone. We can only be offended by agreeing that someone has that much control over us.
They do not. But we give them the power of that offense. Ron’s enemy, SP obsession did however teach his students to be victims of some all powerful “other”. That somehow SPs can take away our wins and some such nonsense.
No one can knock us off our mark unless we ourselves grant that power to the perp.
Just thought I’d chime in. I hope you don’t mind.
Great to hear from you. I expunged the guilt so now I feel better.
GMW
Hi Brian, great to hear from you. My wife mentioned to me how much she loved the “Incredible String Band.” I said to her that Brian had mentioned it to me. We looked it up and played some tunes. She likes the one about the “moment is now”. Great music.
GMW
I’m so out of the loop that I hate to even comment. I really don’t have an opinion about what you and Mosey choose to do in your lives. You’re both very capable of running your own show. As your friend, I support you.
Hi Oracle – As soon as my post showed up I knew I said it wrong. I’m new to blogging so please forgive me. I’m 100 percent pro Marty and Mosey. Rather than re-explaining, let’s just say I think Marty is a good sport for posting those (Sickyz) crazy comments (and mine-lol). Somehow it just hit my funny bone that in the middle of all the well wishes, “Fuck you Marty” showed up!
P.S. I probably said shit wrong again but I hope you get my good intentions. Richard
Dear Ann, Again, wrong items and wrong indications. But when I move to correct them, I am accused of anger and wrath. I am not an angry or wrathful person. By asking someone to add in factors that have weight, does not mean I am attacking anyone. I am just interested in keeping the math straight. The ledgers in balance. As you can see by many comments, people can become quite hallucinatory about current conditions. I still can’t find Monique’s statement that you replied to, for instance. You are the one that attacked at me, I did not mention you on this blog and I have no idea who you are. And this is the last bone I am tossing at you.
I understand what you are saying George. It’s just that not everyone sees Tony as the Commanding Officer of the disenfranchised. Whereby events, programs, targets and goals, need to be run by him.
I myself, do not see him as “The Sea Org whisperer” or, “The Scientologist whisperer”.
Regardless of Tony’s need for new scoops, as I see he is reporting on 2008 events lately, he reports in headlines with words that paint the current scene in a very specific light. Such as: “The particularly bad timing of Monique Rathbun’s decision to fire her attorneys”. Indicating Monique is incompetent. Was that necessary reporting? Why would she bother to call him with details, after he has publicly denounced her decision? He already undermined her authority.
Laughter! O.K., I get it. Thanks!
Thank you for the beautiful memories from having crossed your path.
Wishing you all the best, happy trails!
I post ed this over at Mike rinder bolg in response to Valerie:
“great points.
It’s all an endless loop that boils down to KSW and what would Ron do. Hence Robots, or should I say scientologists?
Somehow self-determinism and thinking for oneself gets lost.
I do luv at the end of the podcast they state the creed of the COS.”
I don’t return the flow with the feces throwers. You win.
Thanks for the music Cat Daddy – Johnny had me dancing and Don had me singing along with “I Believe In You” at 9:20. Atom Bomb Baby was cool.
For no particular reason and to no particular person, here’s an old AA saying someone might like: “How important IS it?”
Wishing you the best, Mary, Mosey, and Billy.
Not after, before.
From your posts I’m assuming Monique must have spoken to you about all of this and informed you that she considered Tony’s remarks demeaning and insulting, am I correct in assuming that you have spoken to her and that is the reason you know what is going through her mind?
Perfect Cat Daddy.
Astonishing to me that some feel that Mark and Mosey should behave according to THEIR agenda FOR Mark and Mosey.
As if.
Everything I know about Mark reinforces my belief in a man who has worked ceaselessly to understand his life, to give it meaning and authenticity. He wasn’t a coward in his first beginnings in the Sea Org when asked as a brand new recruit to be the bodyguard for someone whose estranged and crazed husband came for her. He wasn’t a coward when he chose to leave EVERYTHING behind and drive through the gates and fortress of the Hemet compound. He wasn’t a coward when after 5 years of peace and quiet he started this blog in 2009, knowing full well the wrath that would come down around him.
Perhaps he was naive in thinking those who were WITH HIM in this endeavor to expose the inner workings were “with him” through thick and thin … only to find that many “die-hard” exes fled when he started to shine a light off DM onto LRH. And now some are preaching – do this, do that. Why why why? ‘splain to me.
As if, he owes us.
Mark and Mosey, are stellar human beings and parents.
My wish is for their every single wish to come true. For happy trails and long starry nights. For watching their son grow into a man and father. To see their grandchildren laughing and holding hands.
This is what, underneath it all, I’m guessing we all wish for.
Let’s wish this for them who have brought so many of us to the place we are today.
Out and looking TO the future with open eyes.
With love,
Windhorse
Me three.
Absolutely ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Love the humor!
Yes Marty, thanks for all the uplifting help you
have given us.
Ortega keeps on japing. This said, apart from 40% to 50% of any possible contingency settlement, did Monique’s attorney want any fees to be paid by her? They didn’t win attorney/court fees for her in the last round.
Problem with the law are lawyers.
http://www.screwedbylawyer.net/
Wikipedia: Contingency fees do not guarantee civil justice or even access to the courts. Lawyers sometimes “cherry pick” only the strongest claims which are most likely to succeed. Not all cases are immediately transparent. Some require extensive investigation before the chances of success can be properly assessed. Such cases might be turned away because even the initial assessment of their strength is costly and risky.
Contingency fees may also increase the tendency for corrupt or unethical practices, such as in legal proceedings, due to the fact that payment is only made if a case is won.
I guess a lot of people are naturally uncomfortable with not knowing. I am of course curious too since Marty’s story and the harassment of Mosey and her lawsuit have been so public, and the lawsuit has led to hopes of another major court win against Scientology.
However, I am comfortable with not knowing though I hope somewhere down the road, if and when it is feasible, that the Rathbuns correct any incorrect information and give a little of the “back story” if they want.
In the meantime, best wishes to Marty and Mosey and their family. I deeply appreciate their efforts and despise the harassment they have had to endure for years from Scientology.
Just wanted The Oracle to know I loved Marty’s book.
Any ideas I have shared here, come from my own mind. I am not forwarding anyone’s ideas except my own. I have been reading the headlines and comments, and I only added to that.
XXOO Thank you! I did too! It REALLY IS a great book and a great accomplishment.
I LOVE to watch people RISE ABOVE the madness of the cult and sail on a second win!
There are so many people out here that are doing REALLY WELL in life and still so full of promise, with so much to offer the world.
I’m not a troll. I’m just a Genie in a bottle. What comes out depends on what commands………..
Brian wrote:
“sometimes it’s the short ones that blast open perception. Also maybe it’s true that all the work on the longer ones prepares for the great short ones.”
I second that motion.
GMW
So, assume you are tripping.
That said, I don’t think Tony Ortega is famous for bringing out the best in people, anyway.
I’m comfortable not knowing what’s going on. Mainly because it’s none of our business and Monique and Mark have their reasons. With all that they’ve been through I don’t see how anyone could really doubt them or push the issue. I’m not really comfortable with Ortega writing updates when those directly involved are not speaking about the issues for their own good reasons. I don’t see how continuing with that behavior is helpful or supportive and that really is what bothers me about all of this. I think if we want to be supportive we should just stop talking about this.
On the bright side, I’m looking forward to getting Mark’s new book
I do not know anything about Texas law. I do not know if Ray Jeffries or whatever his name is, is the one and only Superman to handle a legal flap in Texas, as has been implied by recent headlines. I do not care to discount the man or his accomplishments, neither his efforts and success’s. He empowered people when he could.
I don’t know why there has to be a “fall guy” in the arena. Except that Tony Ortega keeps putting that out there. “Who is fking up” announcements.
I don’t know 99% of the conditions involved in this legal theater.
What I do know is this, Ray Jeffries, or whatever his name is, handled Debbie Cook and won because of Marty. And he did it in weeks.
Monique has been parked inside a present time problem for YEARS. That is a long time to have your ruds out.
I am sure if Ray could have made some goal sooner, in all of the time allotted, things might have been different. It is not easy to live in “wait” on a justice cycle.
This is something we can all know about. Nobody else out here commenting, was in that situation.
At the end of the day, there is no reason for people out here to turn on one another, to harm attack or suppress one another, because of David Miscavige’s domestic terrorism. All he needs to do is take responsibility for his bullying, and then there is no issue.
What was done to Monique is WRONG. Injustice recoils. Miscavige overlooked the memo.
Because I work in P.R. and mediation, I will say this, If I were representing Monique in this situation, crisis control would have been a priority and I would have driven my car to the Int Base gates and sat there, until the matter was resolved. I would not have parked my client in “wait”.
But the thing is, everyone goes a bit in a trance under this suppression. Taking on the CofS is a daunting task and for sure, Ray deserves a Freedom of Medal Award.
But who pulled him into this theater? His power came from Marty. Now Marty has to deal with Tony O’ running reviews on his wife.
Where is the mercy, where is the love? We are so much better and smarter than this.
And the only reason I have pushed Marty’s book on this forum, is that, if you read it, you will get it.
I really do care about people that had a goal to fix themselves and others. I might not want to live anymore, if I did not. Everyone I cross paths with, gives me reason to live.
Scientology did not “make you”. You made Scientology. It was built on the backs of millions. Not one or two men.
The thing with me is, I do not permit David Miscavige or anyone else, to undermine my authority. Because of “rank” or anything else.
And this is how, you see, to break free. To see that YOU are Cause, on the Scientology. Do not invalidate yourselves. Or one another. There are only a few people profiting from infighting and ill will.
Well, this may be my final “rant”, but really, it is a begging. Because you people made me love you.
And I believe our paths have crossed, for holy reasons we will someday understand. Please don’t dub in, I am not talking about heaven. We are not the only people that have had a hard luck life. We are just the people on an internship where we start at the bottom and work our way up. And we were meant to help one another along the way. Not tear people down.
There are people out here, with a purpose, to cause you to fall out of ARC with yourself, under pressure. You don’t owe that to anybody.
+1
Kim
I don’t think it’s Tony’s job as a journalist to be helpful or supportive. I think his job (or at least the job he has assigned to himself) is to report the Scientology news, which he does astonishingly well, and for which a great many people are very thankful.
Funnily enough, the job of “being supportive” is usually done by the people who read blogs like Tony’s, Marty’s and Mike’s.
Tony has been reporting on Monique’s case since it started, and the commenters on the Bunker have been hugely supportive of her. I don’t know if she’s followed the support on the Bunker but I hope it’s helped her to know so many people are rooting for her.
It is understandable that Tony would report on any major developments with the case, it is understandable that all Scientology watchers would respond to such news, and it is understandable that Monique might not want to speak about it.
In other words, everyone is behaving as you might expect. From what I have seen at the Bunker, the majority viewpoint is to wish Monique the absolute best.
Oracle
You have a beautiful mind….
Why should anyone at all attack Marty after all he has done….None of those commenters had the Courage to go to Texas and fight for him and the cause they are proudly fighting for in their living rooms behind a Keyboard….
He and some few others where on the battlefield fighting with Courage, while the rest was looking through their Computer Screens cheering and commenting.
How many People had the Courage in the last decades to really stand up against this Organisation ?
If all those commenters would really have some Courage they would Rally together and do something about it and this Organisation would be history. Most of them still haven’t confronted the fact that they were part of this Organisation and have helped to create it. Marty has done everything possible and even more to undo his past work. Why are the rest of the commenters not doing the same ? And take responsibility for their past ?
IMHO
What I do know is this, Ray Jeffries, or whatever his name is, handled Debbie Cook and won because of Marty. And he did it in weeks.
“Monique has been parked inside a present time problem for YEARS. That is a long time to have your ruds out.
I am sure if Ray could have made some goal sooner, in all of the time allotted, things might have been different. It is not easy to live in “wait” on a justice cycle.”
I think Ray has been doing an excellent job. Don’t forget CO$ has fielded 20+ lawyers who want their say, and that their use of the law is aptly
called a “scorched earth policy” where anything possible is addressed and everything improbable as well. For CO$ legal matters are a war of attrition.Then the last appelate court ruling took a year and an earlier one took some time. The lawsuit against Mayo lasted a decade.
Exactly!!
It’s none of my business how anyone handles any litigation in which they are involved. Monique and Mark deserve privacy like anyone else. I admit I had wordplay on the word “rue” in the UB but that’s cuz I can’t help myself when it comes to playing with words!!!! Take care of yourselves and know that you are loved.
Good points.
I think Miscavige draws things ou,t because he can’t complete a cycle of action. Unless his ass is on the line (as in the Debbie Cook saga) or, money in his pocket is involved. As in the IRS saga.
Surely, he doesn’t even worry about his reputation. He lies in national media, and all of the Scientology members can see it.
The Stringband were magical creatures The stage persona of its members; very elfin.
Today is a celebration in the Tibetan world. I have a Tibetan friend. She is going into a two week silent retreat and usher in this celebrated time period in meditation.
Nice to connect my friend. Thanks
Brian
Beautifully said, Oracle. And I found his book soulful and in my humble opinion (I never met the man), a window into who he is.
He is so assed backwards with alter ising everything, he is the only Scientologist on Earth that parks HIMSELF in “wait”, on justice cycles.
It is not easy, to continue to care, about your fellow man in this theater. You invest in people that pull that rug out from under you. You push people up, that tear you down. It is really a fucking mess to know your friends from enemies. When you find out the truth, it breaks your heart. People will throw all kinds of doubt before you, to take you down. It is just not true that this is an unforgiving and brutal world. Of betrayal. Earth is a kind and merciful balm, to those with their hearts in the right place.
Thank you Lovey.
A late post and just an aside about books. With the ease of self publishing over a million books are published per year. Of course many or most are not worthwhile, but even an excellent writer might wait years for recognition.
I recently unofficially edited a history book about Burlington City, New Jersey for a friend. (It was once the capital of Western New Jersey as it was called prior to the Revolutionary War) He has no great expectations. He wrote it for his own satisfaction. A local college is funding the publication, perhaps 6 or 7 thousand dollars for the first printing.
He’ll get recognition from a small group of New Jersey history buffs, but who knows. It could go further since it was an interesting and entertaining read.
The Scientology culture is a snitch culture. God forbid someone place a confidence in someone else.
But journalists and reporters, that is snitch culture of magnitude. That is when your goals and purposes are to snitch full time and you are rewarded with payment.
The people in the Church get the opportunity to report by “knowledge reports”. And in those brief moments, they experience the thrill of being a reporter, and “reporting”. And by now it is very clear that reports made in counseling, have been used by the Church to harm attack, and suppress.
But professional reports, they do this day in and day out full time. And sometimes they get hungry, and invent , or rant, or convey attitudes. Then it is just Human Emotion and Reaction. And they violate their own professional ethics code:
http://www.spj.org/ethicscode.asp
But definitely, reporting is a snitch culture.
Thank you. Only reporters write from need and greed. Most people that write books do so from a love, curiosity, or passion for something. Or. to create pleasure moments for others.
I was given a “tell all” manuscript to edit, from someone who was very high ranking in the Church for a long time. Way before DM took over things. Halfway through my edit, he suddenly requested it back. Quite urgently. He had given a copy to someone else that was connected to a covert spy for OSA. He vanished off the radar along with the manuscript. Maybe he sold it before it was published, I don’t know. But he really had the writer’s gift. He wrote beautifully. The manuscript was one of the best reads I ever had. You never forget a good book you read.
You have to go to college now to understand something about economics. So, I am in the process of writing a series of books for economically challenged women. How to get the biggest bang for your buck, how to know exactly what you are signing up for, when purchasing a home, how to invest in a wardrobe, things like that. It is a kind of cruel to put a person on the street with out even a high school education and expect them to understand the way things work financially. They get taken advantage of. Having grown up in extreme poverty myself, I have a lot of stories to tell and good advice to give. I had to support myself growing up, in every way. One summer, subsisting on a bag of dog biscuits I found in a garage. Once, I was so desperate for food I dialed zero for the operator, to guide me through cooking something from the ingredients I found in the cabinet. She stayed on the line with me. Made me tell her what was there. Taught me how to make gravy in a frying pan, over the phone. So, I’m paying it forward.
Books to read, carried me through it all. A good book, has healing powers.
Yesterday was Losar — the Tibetan New Year — it is slightly later (by 2 calendar days) from the Chinese New Year —
And I am sure it will be a terrific and exciting — energetic and lively RED FIRE MONKEY year …
And to top it off my book from Amazon arrived “Texas Tropics” by Mark C. Rathbun.
I was only able to read the first few chapters online from Amazon — and was therefore delighted to get my book. I considered it a GREAT omen that it arrived on the Tibetan New Year.
And I wasn’t disappointed reading late into the evening. It’s a warm, friendly writing style and moves the reader along well. Writing fiction is a very different genre than memoirs or exposes or blogging. I’d say, Mark has a writing future 🙂 !!!
It’s a terrific read.
I look forward to the time when his book(s) are on the best seller lists and I can brag and say — oh yes — he’s my friend.
(in small town America where I now live … makes for a great conversation starter) …
WIndhorse
The grief and issues the Rathbun’s have been experiencing over the last few years, the posts here, at ESMB, and Tony’s are not Tony’s fault. Scientology caused this to happen. People that have embraced hubbardism have caused this to happen. Would you truly wish upon the public a world without those people who look behind the curtain and expose the charlatan there?
Oracle – Would you agree that honest investigative reporting is vital? Think Watergate.
Oracle – I donate regularly to my local food bank. P.S. On an ESMB post someone said they would NOT buy Marty’s novel since you recommend it! – lol Ya can’t please everyone
That’s is really nice of you Richard.
About the fair gaming on ESMB. It used to bug me. Especially one stalker that hunted me. Over time, I found out how the same persons, had fked themselves up. I found they had already harmed themselves, in ways I would never dream of harming anyone.
It took the wind out of my sails, in terms of retaliating or wanting to respond. It does not offend me anymore.
Most of my memories of ESMB are fond memories. I had some great conversations over there with a lot of interesting people. Alan Walters and I used to stay up talking all night long on PM. I had a lot of former acquaintances reconnect with me because they recognized my voice in posts in ESMB.
In the beginning, it was a very diversified and cosmopolitan forum. Every one was welcomed. I think Emma opened the floodgates to Scientology discussions on social media. In the beginning it connected people up. People built bridges on that forum. It was a very happy hub for a long time. I really liked most of the people engaged.
The blogs and forums are an art to manage. I don’t think I would be capable at it. People who did not have much of a 3D before Scientology, have this experience of “group = agenda”. So, even if a group starts out as a friendly group with curious people, sooner or later, you find people become uncomfortable with out an agenda. Once the group has an agenda, enforcement enters about “who belongs, and who does not”. And that is always based on someone’s agenda. I just didn’t have an agenda over there except for conversation.
I think this blog remained successful, diversified and cosmopolitan, because agendas were not enforced on people, forcing any identity on them. A few people tried to do that to the forum, the oppression just rolled back on them. Marty never bent under the pressure to set an agenda, and disconnect (condemn) people, because of their beliefs.
People were just expected to be civilized.
I had this strange idea when I left the Church and began talking to people on the Internet, that we were out of the “rank” , status quo, classification, etc. etc., and we all just a bunch of buddies now with some camaraderie to share. Like, a high school reunion thing. LAUGHTER!!!!!!!!! So I made some errors. I didn’t, “know my place”. Then I lost “my place”.
There wasn’t much of that on this forum. Most people seemed to be in the same place right from the beginning. Curious.
Now, there are so many platforms on social media, people can group off and group up according their agenda or rank. A LOT of valuable information is shared daily that really is valuable information.
But I will say this. Marty bought the Scientology down onto the streets. It was no where to be found before he started this blog. Now it’s in theaters everywhere. The meek have inherited the Dianetics and Scientology, along with the Earth.
Nation of Islam, Taiwan, and the Russians, are stepping into the invisible and the magic, and finding ground there.
This is biblical. There is a parallel universe running beside the reaction, and the collateral damage, that is pro action. And promise. And these people are not hooked at the hip with the Church in any way. It is the golden age of shifting tide and currents. But Marty opened that flood gate. And it all flooded down onto the streets.
I only got to watch the whole thing, because I am curious. These forces and conditions, I mean, you just realize the promise and potential of this civilization. How wild and wonderful it is. This moment. Our lives. What the future is capable of meaning for us.
All the parts of the puzzle start to seem like they fit.
KSW is but a altered version of the Constitution of the USA.
https://www.constituteproject.org/constitution/United_States_of_America_1992
KSW is Hubbard’s constitution of the world according to Hubbard, aka dianetics/scientology
Ethics Code of the Journalist.
Is it not the same or similar to the Amendment 1 of the Constitution of the USA?
“AMENDMENT I
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
Did Hubbard apply the Ethics Code of the Journalist?
Oracle – Thank you for your viewpoints and expression. I have learned and continue to learn many things on the blogs.
I don’t feel less than anyone but I doubt I could keep a conversation going with Alan Walter. I certainly would have enjoyed listening in!
I haven’t listened to a song featuring sax and horn in a while. Nice
Bwaaa ha ha “Slappy Mctinyfists”! He he
I support appreciate and admire Marty. Respectful salute.
Alan and I had a lot of politically incorrect conversations. We made a scale from fanatic to hater. And saw how they were doing the same thing at both ends in complete harmony.
For instance, take A-E steps for an SP declare. In the sub culture of anti / hater, you are expected to “come clean” about your crimes in the Church. There are haters that have smacked Marty down on this one constantly. “You haven’t told all”. In particular he has been accused of this in round about ways by Tony Ortega himself. This is an A-E step in the Church also, to rejoin.
Secondly, you are expected in the ant anti / hate group, to declare that everything you did or thought in Scientology was ignorant and unfounded. You have to declare you were brainwashed, coerced or mislead. I mean, it is an A-E you have go through to “belong”. Bit it is a reverse A-E for a declared suppressive in the Church.
I mean, they do not even see they are expecting people to do an A-E out here, in the reverse direction!
If you do not do an A -E in reverse, you will be far gamed by the anti groups. And you will be fair gamed by the Church, at the same time. And this is, a lot of suppression to endure to be sandwiched in by two sides. I think you can only endure it if you walk a middle path and permit the suppression from both ends, to actually prop you up. Laughter!
But the fact that people leave, begin to attack and do a reverse AtoE, and enforce that down on others, with out even noticing or knowing what they are doing, is really quite bizarre. Even, a little spooky. Very twisted magic.
I could not think with the A-E program in the Church, so I wasn’t going to think with it upon leaving. You are expected to make nothing of yourself, your reasons, your identity, or former identity, your education and your own intelligence. That in itself, is very suppressive. Because you are going to find people on both sides of the fence, that will do that for you. A-E on either side, is a demand for complete surrender.
I never felt it was Hubbard to lead me or teach me. I was curious. But I sorted out my own information. I am self taught and self led.
In the Church culture, everyone is set up to be led by an upper echelon. To learn you must be “supervised”. It is very heavily policed. People leave and and can not think with use or apply, anything they “learned”. And for the most part, become criminal with their “status” and “knowledge” when they are not heavily policed.
Most people I know personally that are Scientologists, are heavily in protest about my children being left to self lead and self teach. But my kids never have to be policed. They know what they know, they are what you see in front of you. Not some synthetic identity.
Marty walked a hard line sandwiched in the middle of this oppression from both sides. And Monique was by his side to share the burden. But the result is, whatever good was to come to mankind in terms of workable science, exploring the supernatural, psychometry (which is a valid science and has been used by police departmnents as a science now for decades), any promise and potential within Hubbard’s ideas, just flowed down to the needy, the curious, the kind, gentle and meek. The well wishers, the humble. The ones that have faith. The spiritual. The hopeful.
There are higher powers in this universe than Hubbard, Miscavige, Sea Org members, Tony Ortegas, protestants, fanatics and oppressors.
“You know what the issue is with this world? Everyone wants some magical solution to their problem and everyone refuses to believe in magic.”
― Lewis Carroll
P.S. Happy trails Richard.
Nice speaking with you Oracle and thanks for sharing (smiling)
To the few who remain:
Life is short. You never know when someone you love will become sick.
WE have no idea how much time is left. Make the most of life.
You deserve fulfillment, YOu deserve your own life.
Leaving Scientology is like leaving a long term relationship. NOTHING can ever negate the good times, the teachings that made you grow, the friends you gathered.
Walk away. YOu do NOT have to pay anything. They have all they money needed for a lifetime.
Save yourself. See your friends. FInd family. Meet the world.
We are all here with open arms. We understand. We have faith in your strength.
Hi Brian,
Two week silent retreat is wonderful. I never made it that long on the silent end. We do practice “Noble Silence” at home. It helps make a marriage great. We celebrated twenty-six years yesterday.
GMW
Brian,
I could not resist the temptation. When I heard about Mosey’s lawsuit in Texas against Miscavige, I thought of this last part of Boethius’ prayer:
“Sovereign Ruler, Lord of all! Can it be that Thou disdainest Only man? ‘Gainst him, poor thrall, Wanton Fortune plays her vainest. Guilt’s deserved punishment Falleth on the innocent; High uplifted, the profanest On the just their malice vent.
‘Virtue cowers in dark retreats, Crime’s foul stain the righteous beareth, Perjury and false deceits Hurt not him the wrong who dareth; But whene’er the wicked trust In ill strength to work their lust, Kings, whom nations’ awe declareth Mighty, grovel in the dust.
‘Look, oh look upon this earth, Thou who on law’s sure foundation Framedst all! Have we no worth, We poor creatures, of all creation? Sore we toss on fortune’s tide; Master, bid the waves subside! And earth’s ways with consummation Of Thy heaven’s order guide!”
Spent last night with friends. Celebrating the Tibetan New Year. Although it was actually on Tuesday this year – the party/celebration was held on Saturday. It was great.
‘ve been telling my close friends within this buddhist community about Scientology for YEARS. And two mentioned that they had JUST watched “Going Clear” — each were astonished and wanted to know more, from my point of view.
Both commented at the similarities and yet differences of the two groups (and BTW used those exact words – not owned by Scientology) between this VERY non-traditional/yet traditional buddhist group AND scientology.
It was interesting to me.
The three of us agreed the key must be, that at its heart/core/base — was the INTENTION of the “leader(s)”
And WHEW — obvious by my friends.
Over and out.
Windhorse
PS — get Mark’s book — Texas Tropics – it’s terrific. Not just because I’m a Mark fan but because it’s a TERRIFIC MYSTERY/THRILLER – note to those who like page turning crime/mysteries
Arnie – Late post – Nice (updated?) blog, Arnie. I just now briefly browsed it. I like the 1972 picture of you with long hair and a turtleneck under your shirt. Coulda been a picture of myself back in the day – lol. Best, Richard
Thanks Richard, this blog is my attempt to distil 30 years of experience, recovery, reading and contemplation, in order to ‘build a better bridge’ out of not just the scientology delusion for profit, but all delusions for profit…as the METHODS are the same, just the shore storys are different.
Hello George – Not Brian – just Richard butting in – lol. Maybe he’ll show up later. As usual I return to a topic I find interesting.
It took me a few times through your quote to get it, but yes: “Master, bid the waves subside! And earth’s ways with consummation of Thy heaven’s order guide!”
I believe the basic meaning of pray is “to ask”. Who is Boethius?
I should learn to use Wikipedia first! – lol – Boethius of Dacia (Denmark) A thirteenth century philosopher who taught at the University of Paris.
Hi Arnie! – I noticed the expansion of your viewpoint. I look forward to learning things on your blog since you have a PhD in Scientology and I was just a humble Class IV auditor and so called dianetic clear. (joke)
Much of what I was led to believe that I was achieve in scientology actually is attainable deconstructing how the trick was done…. also see my deprogramming group on facebook. Link: https://www.facebook.com/groups/deprogramming/?ref=bookmarks
Hi Richard!
Anicius Manlius Severinus Boëthius,[1][2] commonly called Boethius[3] (English: /boʊˈiːθiəs/; also Boetius /boʊˈiːʃəs/; c. 480–524 AD), was a Roman senator, consul, magister officiorum, and philosopher of the early 6th century. He was born four years after Odoacer deposed the last Roman Emperor and declared himself King of Italy, and entered public service under Ostrogothic King Theodoric the Great, who later imprisoned and executed him in 524 on charges of conspiracy to overthrow him.[4] While jailed, Boethius composed his Consolation of Philosophy, a philosophical treatise on fortune, death, and other issues, which became one of the most popular and influential works of the Middle Ages.
Boethius is one of my all time favorites. An American monk residing in England pointed him out to me about five years ago. In the 6th century, Boethius was standing in the middle of Roman ideas, Christian ideas and even some Buddhist ideas. “Virtue cowers in dark retreats” This is Christian and Buddhist. In the Buddhist context, it refers to the path need to regain virtue. Boethius is theistic but he can be accepted by a Buddhist without effort.
GMW
Richard,
From Consolidation of Philosophy by Boethius:
“Man’s Covetousness.
What though Plenty pour her gifts With a lavish hand, Numberless as are the stars, Countless as the sand, Will the race of man, content, Cease to murmur and lament?
Nay, though God, all-bounteous, give Gold at man’s desire— Honours, rank, and fame—content Not a whit is nigher; But an all-devouring greed Yawns with ever-widening need.
Then what bounds can e’er restrain This wild lust of having, When with each new bounty fed Grows the frantic craving? He is never rich whose fear Sees grim Want forever near.”
The above could have been gleaned out of the Discourses of the Buddha.
Boethius was simply amazing.
GMW
Correction:
In the Buddhist context, it refers to the path needed to regain virtue.
I think “honest”, is a key word here. Who has done more honest investigation into Scientology, if not a Scientologist? I have had several hundred hours of auditing, I know about it. I lived in that culture, I know about it. I have no use for Tony Ortega, to “know”. Is that my bad? He does not represent me or translate for me. If former Scientologists elect him as their leader, I don’t even have a problem with that.
I have a problem with the fact that he is not above fair gaming children as a way to harm their parents. If you want to know the truth about it. On a an interview he gave on television he was asked point blank why he had an issue with the Church. He said, “Because they are bullies”. No, he had personal situations with them he did not disclose on national television. He just suppressed that info. He has used his blog to bully people all over the place. Fair game people. Fair game children. He dragged Stacey Francis, a single mother with two children to raise, all over the mat.
He is not a merciful or compassionate human being. He will step over women and children to grand stand and push his personal agendas. He is profiting off the misery of others. He is totally out ethics as a journalist if you care to read the standard.
He lives in the neighborhood I grew up in, surrounded by my friends, family,relatives, remote relatives, former lovers and X husbands. And he is so oblivious he doesn’t mind to smack me down on his forum when I point out his injustices.
He is just another person tripping in this episode.
No. Hubbard did not apply the code. But he was not working as a journalist. He also, probably could not fry an egg, embroider on silk, iron a collar, make a souffle, travel at the speed of sound, tip Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. He was not a dog hired to do tricks what the fuck is wrong with you??????????? Can you do all of that?
You suggest here I work here to suppress information. You are not the justice chief for the universe for a reason. That reason is, you have every capability of dabbling in injustice.
The Rebel Alliance are the good guys. LMAO!
GMW – I noted that Dictionary.com listed grasping as a synonym for covetous. “Grasping” is a Buddhist concept I happened to come across which was summarized or (over)simplified as “Reaching for another piece of fruit to put into an already full basket”. That struck me as to how much do I Really need to know about scn. It gave me perspective. Especially by today’s standards Boethius understanding was amazing for a man of 44 years. Best, Richard
Oracle – At times I find being wrong is refreshing. I takes the pressure off.
Oracle..I was there that day.. You were absolutely ridiculous. Good Lord. No one would have accepted your loathsome post. There is no love lost between you and Tony I get it, but you were absolutely ridiculous in that post.
Laughter! Greed’s road is paved with innocent bystanders. We have all been taxed.
But when children become prey for the greedy, the predators enter a parallel universe, known as “the dark side”. It has it’s own rules, it’s own invisible influences. Nothing is sacred in that universe. It is a hall of mirrors that snag the narcissistic.And all attention is devoted to who or what is oppressing them, as they become the hunted.
Monique, this morning over at the underground bunker, TX Lawyer was sharing some of his thoughts on the current state of your law suit and what might be headed you direction in the upcoming weeks.
http://tonyortega.org/2016/02/20/why-scientologys-petition-to-the-texas-supreme-court-mentions-a-dildo-and-other-surprises/
Hi Richard,
Yes Boethius was amazing for a life of 44 years. He was born only four years after the fall of the Western Roman Empire.
The following could apply to Christianity, Buddhism and even Scientology:
True Nobility.
All men are of one kindred stock, though scattered far and wide; For one is Father of us all—one doth for all provide. He gave the sun his golden beams, the moon her silver horn; He set mankind upon the earth, as stars the heavens adorn. He shut a soul—a heaven-born soul—within the body’s frame; The noble origin he gave each mortal wight may claim. Why boast ye, then, so loud of race and high ancestral line? If ye behold your being’s source, and God’s supreme design, None is degenerate, none base, unless by taint of sin And cherished vice he foully stain his heavenly origin.
Best,
GMW
I hate to see this decension.
Anyone who says the Rathbuns don’t owe anyone an explanation is correct, but you can understand why those of us who follow this stuff are curious.
But I don’t see Tony Ortega doing anything wrong by reporting on it. This is his beat. I didn’t interpret the lawyer’s comments to be anything but objective. Those personality involved (I.e. Marty and Monique) might not like the comments. I can understand. But they really didn’t strike me, as an objective observer, as mean-spirited or uncalled-for.
Anyway, those in the opposition to Scn and it’s abuses shouldn’t play into OSA’s hands with this infighting.
I wish nothing but the best to Marty and his wife.
GMW – I see that Boethius’ words can apply to many religions and beliefs. Do you know that the first time through I never even noticed the poetry?! – lol – I was concentrating on the words. I went back and read the quotes aloud.
Sometimes great words are simple yet powerful. I would like to bring forward a quote you posted on an earlier topic and which might in a sense apply here.
My mindfulness and wisdom are mature
And my mind well concentrated
Conjure up whatever forms you wish
But you will never make me tremble
(from the) Samyutta Nikaya – 489
(the words of) a saint confronting Mara, the evil one, also translated as “death”
wight
wīt/
noun
archaicdialect
noun: wight; plural noun: wights
a person of a specified kind, especially one regarded as unfortunate.
“he always was an unlucky wight”
literary
a spirit, ghost, or other supernatural being.
Agree with you that the debate can go into too much mud throwing. But when Ortega’s legal helpers talk about “mentally disturbed plaintiffs” I think they have passed beyond the level of being an “objective observer” as you refer to.
Fair enough. All I can say is, after I read it, the thought in my mind was, “I wonder what the heck happened,” and not, “I can’t believe they did that…” Know what I mean?
Richard,
Excellent reference.
Mara, the evil one, changes after a very long time in Theravada Buddhism. The role of the devil is held in a revolving door by different personalities. It is actually comical. The role was held by one of the Buddha’s disciples. In legend, Mara actually has an army of spirits used for temptation. The Buddha was enticed by beautiful women. He held his mind concentrated.
I see that Boethius probably had some Buddhist sources. The Canon was in Pali. Boethius spoke Latin. However, we do know Monks were teaching Greek Kings in Greek in Western India as early as 300 BCE.
The taint of sin and the stain are Budddhist concepts. Boethius is so interesting because he is very early, before bishops consolidated texts.
After Boethius, we did not get Buddhist thought in the West until the Germans discovered the Pali texts in India in the 1870’s. The first Pali/English dictionary was published in 1872.
GMW
“a pretty picture”
Monique, Marty and their child
As they stroll down a country road
Arm in arm or hand in hand
Surrounded by a heavenly glow
Do they tremble? No!
Here is my Hero, Boethius:
Nothing can subdue Virtue.
Whoso calm, serene, sedate, Sets his foot on haughty fate; Firm and steadfast, come what will, Keeps his mien unconquered still; Him the rage of furious seas, Tossing high wild menaces, Nor the flames from smoky forges That Vesuvius disgorges, Nor the bolt that from the sky Smites the tower, can terrify. Why, then, shouldst thou feel affright At the tyrant’s weakling might? Dread him not, nor fear no harm, And thou shall his rage disarm.
I think I got the strategy of Rathbun’s.
Makes lots of sense and it Looks quite clever…
LOL
You have very high standards if this is a “loathsome” post:
“Maybe not everyone is capable of making the kind of responsible parenting decisions Tony is.”
I am glad you are far above such commentary.
The point is, he does edit off any commentary that does not please him. I do not hold that against him at all. The blog is his production. He has every right to make it look pretty, pleasing, and full of love and agreement towards him. And to instantly squash disagreement or criticism.
I have no problem with that at all. I would probably do the same thing if I had a blog.
I do have a problem with someone saying he does not or never discounts and deletes criticism from his blog. That is a false report. He does, and I have had comments deleted as many as five times a day.
He is not the “liberal” he appears to be. He has an agenda and the feedback needs to align with his agenda or it is squashed.
I do not have a problem with that.
I said what my problem is with him. But really, I do not think about him or it, more than the few moments it takes me to confront his predatory nature. When he is willing to drag children and innocent bystanders onto his blog and fair game them. The collateral damaged he leaves for others to clean up.
He is no one’s parent, no one’s husband, no one’s boss, varying degrees of employee. His blog is what he has got, and his followers. I guess he is a cat owner. He is willing to denounce and fair game people that are someone’s parents, that are someone’s spouse. That do employee hundreds of people. And he feels above them although he shares in none of their burdens or responsibilities.
That is not unusual in this world. It is what it is. I only think about him when someone else brings up his name. Otherwise he is just an ordinary person to me that has problems with math values. And therefore is blind to his own treason and enemy conditions. I do not think disrespecting people and publicly humiliating them, is a value to society. But each person has to decide on their exchange with their fellow man. That is a personal thing.
As for my “loathsome” post, I suspect I am not on a short list of people you loath. That did not measure up to your high standards.
It is a good thing that there is a lot of space in this atmosphere, and it is easy for you to put vast distance between yourself, and a loathsome one like me.
I used to think “fair roads and good weather” was the lowest form of respect you could give to another human being. I still think it, but in the last six months I have managed to use it. There is plus ARC, there is minus ARC, where you can still fight and argue and disagree. But there is a place south of that, below minus ARC, where you view the other person with the same feeling as a pebble. It is below minus ARC where strange distances fall into place. And you actually mock up a synthetic being to communicate and handle, the one in front of you. As if, you were dealing with an animal.
You do not need to defend Tony Ortega from me. I promise.
Anyway, as the song goes, “If memories were all I sang, I’d rather drive a truck.” Bring on the memories Tony!
I haven’t posted on this blog for over a year But reading some comments I’d have to say What ever happens with the court case on Monique I hope there efforts do result in changes and removals of the destrutive structure as it has become Many have spoken
thks for the updates
What snagged you, and who is hunting you?
Thank you very much. Like I’m the one tripping. That was fair gaming. Help me clear these Bunker people. Just kdnn….
Oddly enough, because I have been thinking about what you said, the “wrongness” in me in this theater, is when the “Catholic” in me speaks. When I expect all people are thinking with the ten commandments, at the very least. I mean, it was just social policy. But it worked. Whoever thought of those ten simple rules, tried and succeeded to bring some order. Treating others like you would want to be treated, makes perfect sense. If you view these things as “policy”, why are they so unreasonable? All of our current laws are based on violating these polices. O.K. so what policies are these other people operating off of? It seems like, “It’s a dog eat dog world and that ain’t no lie”.
I think Hubbard did the world of Scientology a disservice when he wrote “What we expect of a Scientologist”.
I don’t expect anything anymore from a Scientologist.
They are the same people they were when they walked in the front door, aside from personal discipline that led to change.
Scientology does not make people mean, sadistic, or treasonous. Just like it does not make people holy, kind, and honest.
Some of the most unethical and treasonous people I ever met in my life, were wearing the cloak of “Scientologist”.
If you are mean, you are mean. Sorry that Scientology did not change that.
If you are abusive, if you are a criminal, you were and still are. The basic purpose runs through time.
I have been attacked the most in this theater, when I hold people responsible for their choices to harm attack and suppress others.
Frankly, a lot of different people go through the revolving door of Scientology. They are not the same. They are not all in non existence when they arrive, some are totally parked in treason and enemy. But they are always afforded sympathy, status, and promise of forgetfulness of their former selves. Suppressing the former self just makes it grow. It is an identity thing.
You want to know who someone is? Ask them who they were before they were ” a Scientologist “.
A thug, a juvenile delinquent, whatever, it is still going on. You can not erase yourself with a new name. I have found this to be true over and over with the people I have met.
The thing about me is, I have always known I am the same person I was 50 years ago, 100 years ago 1,000 years ago. Even further. From the beginning. I have always been the same me. And I always will be. And so are the others. Scientology was a blip on the radar. Just like three stranded pearls. L. Ron Hubbard came and went that fast. And we are still here, being us. The same as it always was.
Richard,
Very well done poetry.
The great tyrant thinks the demons are right.
Thus denies himself pleasure through both day and night.
If he ventures to say that the gods are in the right,
He savours his pleasure with stain on his might.
Sleepless in Clearwater or city of angels both absent sages,
He stays in his prison lacking power but paying his wages.
GMW
Thank you, and you have a beautiful week end!
GMW – Boethius is a hard act to follow but you took a chance and did quite well! When you think about it, Dear Leader has in fact created a prison for himself. It’s unlikely he’ll ever be able to take a trouble free month long or even two week long vacation for the rest of his reign. That’s rather stressful, I would say.
It’s late and I’m sleepy. I’ll respond more later.
Richard
You write, “Scientology does not make people mean, sadistic, or treasonous.” I strongly disagree. $cientology is a belief system and such systems are designed specifically to change people. I was in the group (both on staff and as a volunteer CL V C/S) long enough to know people are changed by $cientology. Conversely, once out of the group people change as the $cientology belief system falls away. Ask Marty if leaving Scientology has changed him and I have no doubt his answer will be affirmative.
GMW – I see that there are internet sites regarding Boethius. As soon as I free time from the scn rabbit hole I’ll read more of Boethius. (joke)
I’ve been reading from “Buddhism – A Way of Life and Thought” by Nancy Wilson Ross. It’s excellent. It was first published in 1980 and is available at Amazon. I’ve hoarded my library copy.
I don’t use it as a read through, but rather pick it up and read a page or a few pages until I find something thought provoking and then set the book down. Here’s something I came across today. It’s from a prince instituting Buddhism in Japan in 640 A.D. “. . . There are few men who are utterly vicious. Everyone will realize it if duly instructed.”
The stories and adventures of the Sages past and present are inspiring.
Above you say about The Buddha, enticed “He held his mind concentrated.” Well said, George. I pondered on that for a while. (I’ll try it again later – lol) Often times I find a person’s take on a subject is as valuable to me as the source material itself.
Thanks for all your feedback, George. I believe I’m moving on up a little higher. Richard
I didn’t say people are not changed by experiences or knowledge in life. You took my comment and wrapped it all the way around the North Pole. But people are who they are, they are not invented in Scientology. People have innate purposes, goals. If you think Scientology makes people mean, sadistic and treasonous, you have your reasons. Feel free to disagree. But do not change my words around to mean something I did not say or imply. I invented myself. Not sure how someone who was a blank slate would have any need for Scientology. But it is possible I have overlooked some form of life manifestation I was not aware of. If the Church could invent people though, why would bring them in off the streets?
The communistic conditions of the Sea Organization, definitely invent the needy. And so do the Capitalistic conditions called free market.
Unless you mean to suggest, people that come into Scientology having no character.
P.S. I meant to put a question mark after that.But anyway, that works for me as a “why” on some level (not all encompassing). I see the rightness in what you are saying. Thank you. I have blind spots too. Your input was valuable for me in understanding conditions and forces in this arena, that I had not considered before. I understand the social stigma a lot better from outside people, towards the inside people. The animosity between peoples that explored it. This was a highly beneficial conversation. I am grateful for your influence. You opened my eyes to something I had not seen before. I do not feel as confused and frustrated as I was before you crossed my path. I needed this understanding.
Sometimes I think “Who Am I” is a dumb question. It’s a lead in to religion. Just a viewpoint for discussion. There are many paths to the top of the mountain without saying the answer at the top is “Who I Am”.
Hi Richard,
Great news.
I would like to take the opportunity to point out the intrinsic value of this blog.
When the blog started, I was stuck in thinking about the value of one path. Today I realize that there are a lot of bright people who have passed through “Moving on up a little higher”. I have been an avid reader trying my best to at least read as many posts as possible.
It is great to hear about your experience with this blog, Richard. Today I spent a few hours reading: “The Doctrine of the Buddha” by George Grimm. It is a classic written in 1915. In 2003, my teacher suggested learning Pali. I have been studying this language since that time. In the last few years, I discovered his wisdom on this. Today I feel more comfortable with the Pali definitions. It is a wonderful transition.
The “Underground Bunker” is a good description of Scientology on the level of the element called Earth. It projects the mass of Scientology. “Moving on up a little higher” contains the motion and energy elements. I feel these often after reading this blog.
GMW
First .. I said your Post was Loathsome, NOT you. I do not sit in judgement. I just remember that day because I had been getting to know you here and just thought.. ” Wow.. That was just way over the top.”
I never use the word Loath/ Loathsome .. I do apologize for that. I will save that word for DM only. We are both passionate people. And we both will continue to do what we have to do to bring this dangerous cult down.
Hi GMW – We’re on the same wavelength, George. Your enthusiasm for what you have learned and are learning carries over.
You had background in philosophy and religion when you entered scn. I had none. I often reflect on what a respected blogger said, “Most of us were intellectual adolescents when we entered Scientology, having little or no background in science, religion or philosophy.” That fit me when I entered scn 40 years ago.
I began reexamining my scn experience after watching the hbo doc and landed on Marty’s Deconstructing Scientology posts in mid 2014. Those well thought out topics and the discourse that followed were an awakening for me. The intelligent back and forth discussion by those men and women were the right thing at the right time for me.
As a newcomer I have no opinion about the Underground Bunker. I read it and gain information and there is intelligent conversation. As a daily blog it has limitations for continued exchange of viewpoints as existed here. For someone participating in the scn dialog for years, I suppose one would form overall opinions.
Above The Oracle mentions some things which brought to mind, for me, considering the “Who Am I” statement. Just let me get thinking about something like that! For now it seems more like a Zen Puzzle than some cosmic statement of a universal pursuit for all mankind as depicted in the EPIC new scn commercial – laughter.
Something clicks as to Western versus Eastern thought and I’m working my way though that. Essentially though, after I discover Who I Am, what’s next? I already know I AM a disenfranchised Thetan from Universe Zeta. They kicked me out 4.78325 trillion years ago. (approximate earth years) More on this later, maybe. Richard
Your episode of ‘Dangerous Persuasions’ is on right now. The actor who played Miscavige was excellent in that he conveyed the insanity. However, I do wish they had made him more true to life, i.e. short.
I think some of Miscavige’s insanity stems from his insecuirty over his height. 5’5 is short. 5’3 is tiny. 5’1 is borderline dwarfism. There is some humor there – the evil cult run by an insane midget.
As good as the actor was, I think they missed that one aspect. It’s like Scarface without the scar.
I know you edit (censor) your blog. Here is some unsolicited advice….. Don’t post anything else from Oracle. He/she is clearly stuck (stuck in an incident as one might say)
Another tip……..write a tell all. Break the ‘confidences’. They were built on sand and you would be doing the person a favor in the long run. A book like that, with no other agenda other than to tell the truth, would be a best seller. No more apologies for Hubbard or anyone else. Just the facts.
Hope everything is well with the family
Right on
Marty Rathbun and Monique are my bro’s
Sorry but yet another ” OT” drooped his body:
The song is very….a year later he died.
Now is the time to stick to your friends.
I have chosen my friends:
I love the Dixie Chicks because they stood their ground.
Niels
GMW – A bit more about this blog. It’s with a tinge of sadness that I expect this blog will soon go silent and not accept additional comments. Alonzo already shut down his blog. Newbies will have all the books and posts to read and two or three other sites but there won’t be as much chance for one on one feedback as I had.
Hopefully Marty will keep this post open for a while for general discussion. Some of his earlier posts had over 1,000 comments but that’s a maybe. No more hanging out at Marty’s house. (sigh)
With that said George, might I be able to get your e-mail or mailing address? I’m not internet savvy so I don’t know how that would work on a blog. Maybe we could exchange a “letter” or two in the future. (smile)
Also my wife and I might be moving to Florida in a year or so and we could meet. I’d also love to meet your wife and teacher. My wife and I have been together for 25 years so you have us beat by a year – lol.
Richard
Wonderfully stated. perfectly true. I only wish I understood why Mosey dismissed her amazing legal team while they were whipping Scientology’s butt. However I cannot imagine how traumatic it must be to live with that daily hanging over your head. I second everything Windhorse had said and I wish this beautiful and brave family only the best in their future. With love.
Thanks Richard.
It really does come down to an examination of the facts.
I had a background in philosophy and religion. In 1989, when I read the OTVIII material on the Freewinds, the light turned on in my head. Scientology lacked depth of thought. Hubbard really had not studied the clues that were to be found in Eastern religion. Thus the subject of scio was incomplete.
I started the same journey that you speak of: Who am I?
The hurdle that needed to be penetrated for me involved the wonders of western technology. The East deteriorated. The West dominated. I remember my college teacher saying. “If your roof leaks, in the West it is replaced. In the East, you wonder about it.” Computers and space travel in the West. Poverty in the East.
But I found a group of about 10 million people who got into an intense study of life about 2,600 years ago. They mastered thought but in a very strange culture and language. Hubbard never explored this treasure. In fact, he made wild statements about his role in a subject he did not even understand.
He never understood what the Buddha was really saying. How could he claim mastery of Eastern thought?
The journey continues, but now it is on a firm foundation.
GMW
I am currently following the Buddhist path.
The purpose is the state of Buddha that is comparable and even beyond the state of OT.
This state has been already attained by many and the technology for it is available.
This technology is free of charge, but you must be persistent and work on a daily basis for it to work.
You have also to develop love and compassion for every living being, something scientology has deprecated.
So that is quite a change of paradigm for former scientologists.
Hi Richard,
No problem with the e-mail or meeting us in Florida.
I’m not a fan of hushmail so I will just post the e-mail
I use for nothing else but discussions with no security risks.
Spies get bored very quickly.
You can get the mailing address once you send.
You can meet our teachers.
My wife is better in Pali sos I get a little jealous.
ultra_scale@hotmail.com
Sad to hear about the closing blogs.
I was active in New York, Toronto and Miami in the early years.
Where were you, may I ask?
GMW
Hi Sunshine – I agree with your sentiments. However, regarding “whipping Scientology’s butt” I would say who wants to fight a tiny miserable and shrinking cult for the next ten years.
I’m kinda new to blogging so if this is trolling I apologize. (smile)
🙂
P.S. I noticed that a newbie posted on ESMB and was getting encouragement and feedback. Good news!
Oracle is one of the least “stuck” people I know. Her writings are not liked by all, specially those anti Scn, as opposed to those anti CO$ as she is.
She has quite a unique viewpoint which I personally find very interesting,
is very smart and a published poet. The most generous person I know.
In my opinion the home team has already won. Anyone interested in this case would have followed up on internet sites and seen with their own eyes the hardships Monique has endured from this so called church. Game, set and match to Monique!
Hello Terril – George has been describing the different way of thinking between Eastern and Western people. For me it’s an unusual concept since we all have the same human bodies and brain, right?
Oracle thinks differently than I. As I follow Oracle’s thinking or thought processes I am in fact expanding my own thinking or whatever you wish to call it. I like it!
George – If you look up here I’m taking a break from “deep thinking”. – Laughter
GMW – Thanks for the invite, George. It was funny for me that it never crossed my mind that your wife would have her own teacher! As if you would both have the same auditor/pastor – lol.
All this is from the 1970s early 80s. I read about scn while living in NYC and found it interesting. I was hitching to Ca to learn how to surf and got as far as Salt Lake City. I trained up to dn auditor and then went to LA for more training. In between outside work as a painting contractor I worked about 6 months at the Las Vegas org and a year at the Salt Lake mission. Salt Lake started a branch mission in Bellevue, Washington and I worked there for about 6 months as a staff auditor. There were no staff contracts back then.
I was in LA when the second round of monthly price increases began and I joined the Great Exodus. Now I’m here and enjoying being free of 30 years of cognitive dissonance that carried forward from scn. laughter!
Some blogs going silent is a good thing. As the cult declines there is less need for them. All the pro and con debates about scn and LRH have been made and one can make up one’s own mind. There are still places where one can get feedback.
I’m thinking about the mental constructs people use. Ego, Id, Super Ego, subconscious etc. Analytical mind, locks, chains, engrams etc. I suppose all are ok if used as a reference point and not put into the category of “the Only one”. I suppose Buddhism has its own constructs.
Richard
Don’t matter about the bodies and brains. We have different education and culture.
I think Scientology, the p.i. et all want the case dismissed — they claim the suit should have been addressed in the separate contexts of the plaintiffs,
http://tinyurl.com/j3jkbu7
Hi Rihard,
My wife was hoping that you had touched the Boston Org.
I remember the price increases. The background appears to be Chicago.
Buddhism has its own unique set of constructs. Some are easy to understand while others are difficult. This is why my wife and I study Pali. For example, there is a direct translation from Pali of feelings/sensations. On the other hand, consciousness in Buddhism is complex and has a broader meaning not captured by that single English word..
No one really speaks Pali today, but studying a few key terms is helpful.
The most misunderstood term is the English translation of the Pali word “anatta” which means “no soul” or “no-self” or ” “no I” or “no personality” or “no essence”.
You can see that there really is no single English word which describes the concept. This idea of anatta runs counter to the Scientology term “thetan”. Hubbard solved the problem by implying that he as the Buddha’s teacher “exteriorized”.
This does not describe anything that can be supported. Technically, Hubbard would have been considered an “ordinary being” not a “noble one”. Hubbard had a limited understanding of Buddhism.
GMW
Hi Richard,
Probably so. Some people say going to an isolated oriental country is like going to an alien planet in the way people think. If that be so then perhaps there is a genetic variation. Ancient humans were isolated.
Just an aside about the refrain “There are no Clears”. Here’s Ron thinking as he wrote Dianetics. “Let’s see – ‘Dianetics dramatically improves memory’ – Nah, that won’t sell books – ‘The Clear has perfect recall.’ – Yes! That works!” – laughter
Many years ago during one of those transcendental moments, for a few hours I lived in “Everything is the way it is just because it is, and everything is already alright, already.” It was a feeling of timelessness and no importance of self.
I’ve never re-experienced that but maybe I will at check out time. – laughter
Well thank you for being so civilized. There is very much rightness about both of us. Possibly far more wrongness in one of us,and that would probably be me. In general.
I really do not have any purposes to bring down any groups. Like I do not have any purposes to bring down families, which is also a group.
The issue I have is with reporting “hallucination” or, “attitude”, as opposed to facts. And it happens there is a perfect example on Tony’s blog today.
He highlights an interview with Mike Rinder on a video, where one man, is interviewing one man, (Mike) about his own personal childhood experiences and what he was taught as a child, by his parents. Who were Scientologists.
Tony takes Mike’s answers, and creates these headlines:
“What Scientology kids are really taught to believe about other religions and ‘God’”
And you know, he gets feedback comments as if this were perfectly true.
Yes. Because Mike Rinder learned this in his home, as a child growing up, several decades ago, = all Scientology kids planet wide are taught this. “Are” as in “right now”.
And this is how Tony does math, and he published this “valuable information” as a “reporter / journalist”.
Now, I can not wrap my head around these kind of equations 1+1 = infinity. I just can not. Maybe if I had an agenda and was so heated up about it I would grab cow poop and try to turn it into fossil fuel in my drive way, I would find a way to believe.
Why someone would go through the trouble to manufacture false information and publish it as truth, indicates to me that forwarding valuable information is not the top priority or policy.
Declaring Monique “mentally disturbed” via his “legal experts” was plain slander.
But I do not want to enforce straight math on people, values additions and subtractions.
I view groups as the families people create outside of the ones they were born in. And people are very righteous about the families they create on their own. Some families are very political and fall into ethnic cleansing goals. The CofS wants to kill of psyches, The Bunkeroos want to kill all Scientologists. Everyone has to follow their own path, goals and purposes. Families are created to give meaning, energy and force to those purposes.
I belong to a simple family of nomads given to farming as a way to keep the tribe going. And if you can’t do simple math, you cannot plant on time or enough to keep people alive. For me to pretend I can not do math, would make me a weak link in the chain for my tribe.
Next time you sit down for lunch, look at the food on your plate, and be grateful for the people that can do simple math. They matter too.
http://tonyortega.org/2016/03/01/what-scientology-kids-are-really-taught-to-believe-about-other-religion-and-god/
Marty.. keep up the good work that you are doing to educate the world about this creepy “church”. I have watched several of the documentaries that you have been in and you are brave to keep doing what you are doing. I just realised that there is a scientology church even here in Norway. The people who follow David Miscavage is totally blind.. I support you and your family! Keep it up! Love from Norway.
P.S. Aside from hunters and gatherers, (I see Tony as a hunter, he hunts people, and David Miscavige is a gatherer who employs hunters who get in the way of his gathering, or to add to his gathering), there are people in this world that create and preserve resources.
A hunter-gatherer is a human living in a society in which most or all food is obtained by foraging (collecting wild plants, rape and pillage, and pursuing wild animals), in contrast to agricultural societies.
The thing I was trying to point out, is that Monique was HUNTED like an animal for years by the C of S.
And now Tony has joined the hunt.
And if nobody else noticed, it is because they are part of the hunt.
P.S. Save seeds. http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2016/02/27/seed-saving.aspx
Because hunting isn’t always an option, when there is no prey.
Totally cool.
From a Buddhist point of view, it could be explained by the inner workings of Karma. There are basically two feedback loops in the process. The first turns the past into an object or a thing. The second takes input from the present or the now. However, the explanantion is not important. The freedom is.
GMW
GMW – I believe I read in an elementary book about Taoism that some Taoist sects believe that enlightenment or some variation thereof can come on suddenly. Any thoughts on that? (not that I personally expect that – laughter) I’m thinking that perhaps there are “jumps”, sort of like skipping from 7th grade to high school.
Richard
Richard,
Yes, this is possible. In fact, there is a debate about it. In the Pali Canon, there are examples of instant sainthood. There is even a serial killer who is led to renounce his murders. There are also numerous examples of very fast learners. One of the powers of a Buddha is the ability to give you the exact words to shock you into enlightenment. One born at the time of the Buddha is very fortunate. In fact, there are several comical stories about individuals who miss the whole point upon a casual encounter with the Buddha. The Tao and the Zen traditions build upon this foundation. The debate that goes on concerns the environment 2,600 years ago as compared to today. We live in a high tech world. The tranquility needed is absent. At the time of the Buddha, there was great war towards the end of his life. However, when he began his teaching there was a period of stability. Thousands lived the holy life in the great open territory. In addition, millions supported the efforts of these people with food and medicine. In ancient India, you could become a monk after a murder and the king would not pursue you unless you were hiding. The monks would weed out a killer so the king did no worry. There is very little spoken today about the great ones who lived at the time of the Buddha. There were many.
There are stories of instant sainthood but there are also stories of instant degradation. If your good karma runs out, you go from riches to rags. Great wealth was lost instantly when an individual lost his “karmic touch”.
GMW
That’s great!
GMW – Those are beautiful images George. Thank you. What a wonder it would be to be out in the open communing with a Master on a starry night 2,600 years ago. Nothing at all but the sounds and smells of nature. They were certainly aware of strife but took full advantage of the respite.
On a modern note, Yahoo had an article yesterday:
Top Pakistani religious body rules women’s protection law “un-Islamic”
The WOMEN’S PROTECTION ACT, passed by Pakistan’s largest province of Punjab last week . . . (caps mine) . . .the article continues about protection from abuse.
Sane people passing laws overruling those hardliners. I’m sure those fundamentalists are having a fit!
Her’s a ditty that a local radio station used to play. I’m sure some people will remember it:
(music) Always look on the bright side of life – Life’s a piece of shit, when you think of it, so always leave ’em laughing when you go – and – Always look on the bright side of life . . .(verses continue)
They couldn’t say “shit” over the radio so they blurred it to “ish” – lol
More to say but I’ll ponder a bit. Later, Richard
My above train of thought started with truth seekers who might consider Buddhism to be arduous and requiring much self discipline. Then I considered that a dedicated Scientologist would spend years chasing away BTs and Clusters and so on. They might as well try Buddhism first – it’s cheaper and healthier – lol.
Maybe a person could try an intensive or two in the field and see how it works for them and then choose another path. Of course this assumes they are fully aware of potential pitfalls.
On the Middle path topic you mentioned that auditing excites the mind rather than improving concentration. Some people would have a show me attitude and want to try auditing to see for themselves.
I still reflect on the Middle Path post, elementary Buddhism, if you will.
Richard
P.S. I’ve come across a couple of those unusual or comical stories on the Buddhist and Taoist sites. One was about a lowly acolyte who turned out to be the real sage. The retiring head man sent him running since he knew the older guys would munch him – laughter
Richard,
ROFL – Rolling on the floor laughing.
I never expected that my journey into seeking the truth would end. In the OT 8 Student Briefing, Hubbard ran into the classic spiritual problem and failed to solve it. I remember theology class in college when this classic problem was outlined. We studied Christian theology, Buddhism, and other eastern religions. The teacher said in 1965, “Write a 40 page paper on the anti-Christ”. We all wrote our papers. I got an A. In 1988, I read Hubbard’s words on the Freewinds. He put together a mish-mash of anti-Christ religious symbols and tied it all into BT’s and implants. The flaw I saw with Scientology was that Hubbard failed to frame the basic problem and then tried to solve what he had personally framed. I graded him D+.
Even a sophomore in theology class knows that Buddhism and Christianity, and immortal thhetans are different in essence.
IMHO, the real issue was that Miscavige did not understand the Student Briefing and thus threw it and Hubbard under the bus. Miscavige missed a golden opportunity to re-frame Scientology into two bridges. Ex-scientologists have written to me and are going beyond Miscavige. Any other sane leader of Scientology would have saved it. It would have been obvious that Hubbard was really not the type of being who could tolerate a leader of scientology into the future. IMHO, this is why he never groomed a replacement.
It has been a long journey and I am happy that it is at an end. My wife and I agree that we had to go through scientology. It turned out to be a wrong path but we learned from it.
GMW
I began reading the June 14, 2015 “Religion” topic. I see that my considerations have been covered in detail. The first several comments leave me humbled.
Brian responds to Arnie saying “Meditation is a process that helps us still the noisy mind from the incessant creation of thinking. The byproduct is simply being happy.”
PING – I started meditating today using a mantra I recall from the past. I’ll figure it out as I go along.
Check your Disqus setting at the top of the comments section. I had some difficulty finding posts until I realized that I hadn’t set it to order posts chronologically.
I’m with you Mark, you don’t own those armchair activists a damn thing. I toast you sir.
Ortega “fair gamed” you? Because he can’t understand a surprising development in a legal case in which he felt deeply invested?
As a reader who has long been interested in your perspective & sympathetic toward your journey, this combative post really disturbed me. In fact, I actually went to the bunker site in an attempt to trace what had happened… And have now returned, in no less confusion. Ortega’s report seemed reasonably fair, respectful, & unusually sensitive (for him–& surely you don’t waste time on his commenters).
While TO’s earlier reporting on you could be disturbingly shallow (he’s not a super-deep thinker ;), his admiration for your wife did wonders toward balancing his coverage of all Rathbun-related news. This has got to be wildly stressful time for a growing family, but it’s hard to understand what spun this detente into an all-out hot war. Valete!
I don’t know about this matter, and I’m not voicing any opinion. But what I suspected about Marty (or Mark) and I liked and why I also participated in the discussions, was an intention for neutrality and thus truth –regardless of whether I always agreed or not with what he was saying. He has voiced disagreements about all parties involved (myself included) and maybe some times a little harsh too.
I couldn’t participate in any heavily biased (or ‘service faced’, in Scientologese) group, for if I disagreed with something, I would immediately be considered an opponent. And ‘heavily biased’ would also mean that truth should be hidden so the group wouldn’t be harmed. And why would such a, idea exist, if no dirty secrets were involved?
I have better things to do than to spend time arguing with somebody who doesn’t take ‘no’ for an answer. And I really dislike this system of showing or imagining each other’s dirty secrets or alleged dirty secrets as a way to attack. If ‘you’ (anybody) point out a lie, do it for the sake of truth, so that those who abide to the lie will no longer do so. Do it in a way that they themselves will see the lie or the truth. Don’t do it to hold them accountable for something.
Be well 🙂
You are a naive puppy
He understands it all too well. You have no understanding of him and his game.
I assure that none of your well-wishers understand even slightly why you have put Monique in the position of having to answer an intricate legal brief without any professional advice.
Betrayal is what you call what you did. Those attorneys took on the case thinking you’d leave them a chance to win it and get paid. You took that away from them. You have a childish way of addressing the matter, considering you knew full well this would blow up into a major story when you did it. You thought it would stay quiet and now you call other people naive.
You are a member of a cult far more pernicious than the one you obsess about. Get a life.
You are arrogant and ignorant – like the cult leader you represent.
I no longer think if I feel bad about something, there must be something wrong with me. Pass?
It is not a matter of pass or failure. It is that you have apparently bought into the notion that the accuser’s game is anything more legitimate than ass clownery – in spite of his continual demonstration of it.
I wouldn’t buy such a thing. And it isn’t that I haven’t fought either. But it wouldn’t be bad to mention better things than what we have done and what we do, I thought, at least as a plan. Anyway, I wont get the blog dirty with any more assclownery, if that’s what you meant.
I’m sorry. I don’t follow you.
Nevermind, I got it now. Sorry. I was thinking WTF does he (you) have against me? It must be because of my strange, long monologues or something…
Anyway, I’m not very naive. I just go for optimum, when I can. But yes, I would prefer to have a straight forward fight than lots of provocations. 🙂
This is all so sad. Marty, I think the damage Scientology has done to you is irrepairable. Both you and Monique deserved all the good things that were coming from this lawsuit. What a loss for all (except Scientology)
If you are anti scientology and not anti social, it reflects a personal misunderstanding. The COS versus The Freezone is what LRH set up. It is a form of witchcraft that creates a GPM that those in The COS and those in The Freezone will forever struggle with until the result of personal Awareness, Responsibility, aligned Fact and Faith lead them to the Truth of the OTVIII state, in which everything is seen as both a total game and a total No Game. All dichotomy turns into a unified physical, emotional, mental and spiritual viewpoint.
John, do you consider then that LRH was actually a nondualist rather than the apparent dualist (theta-MEST theory)?
Each person is both a non dualist and an apparent dualist. At the beginning of the track (which is itself and invented idea) there is the experience of non duality. However, as soon as the being asks any sort of question, such as “what the hell is this” (if the being had any vocabulary, which it hasn’t) It would have created the beginning of duality. The OTVIII state enable the being to choose and to change their choice between being dualist (the normal daily illusion) or nondualist. The non dualist can still be creating their own All That Is, but will have assumed the viewpoint of maximised cause, or imagined source.
Thank you very much. Am I correct in assuming that you are talking about the “OT VIII” LRH developed – the one that was first released (i.e. not the version the CoS has been delivering since a few months after the original release, according to some sources)?
Also, do you know of Lester Levenson, a spiritual teacher back in the ’80s? Apparently, he was familiar with Scientology and with Eastern traditions. Here’s what he had to say about the mind/duality and the being/nonduality (without using the words “duality” and “nonduality,” although he does so in his book). The part about the mind starts in the last minute of Part 1 and continues in the 10 minutes of Part 2:
Yes. The existence of “higher” OT Levels is true, but Ron Hubbard knew that OTVIII can only be attained by solo auditing (self auditing). Destiny has a lot to do with it. At the age of 13, after deciding to dump all beliefs that I could not myself substantiate, I explored communism, met my wife at the Spring Solstice, married her at the spring solstice three years later, dragged her into Scientology and up the grades & level to OTVII. When the COS became a sort of RPF instead of the idealistic state of consciousness we were seeking, my wife first demonstrated that she had always been a witch, by guiding those who wanted to go into St Hill but dared not unless she advised them that the coast was clear.
By leaving the COS but maintaining my explorations I came to know about Lester Levenson and many of the belief systems developed by ex Sea Org personnel and by others like myself. It was inevitable that sooner or later I would discover that my state of conscious had become that defined by Ron Hubbard as OTVIII. I have now coached others to OTVIII (Cosmic Consciousness), using the power and power plus processes and not much more.
Anyone is aware of being OTVIII will immediately realise that Ron intended each thetan to discover them self. They may be inclined to create the idea of another set of levels, but unless a person has not made it to OTVIII, they will just become confused again by depending upon the valueless opinions of others.
Thank you once again, John. Very useful data.
Btw, I accidentally discovered your website a number of months ago when I was doing a google search for something or other in Scientology. You have put together a wealth of knowledge and wisdom from many sources, as well as contributed your own discoveries and programs. It’s an extremely impressive site, and I’ve been meaning to get back to it and will do so.
Here’s the link for anyone interested: http://www.lifemastertraining.com/