Culture of Complaint

Last December an Op Ed piece by Arthur C. Brooks ran in the New York Times.  Reading and contemplating of it and a little follow-up research could lead to the easing of minds obsessed with grievance. See, The Real Victims of Victimhood. The Op Ed posits that our society has become infantilized by its progressive drift toward embracing promoters of complaint, particularly those who peddle in nothing but complaint. They are not hard to identify provided one retains some degree of objectivity. They offer no solutions or alternative vision. Instead, they capitalize on engendering ‘us vs. them’ mentality.  The solution to all of us’ complaints is the destruction of them. A diabolically simple formula to appeal to denialist-inclined minds.

Brooks refers to the 1993 book Culture of Complaint by former Time art critic Robert Hughes that sparked his observations. Hughes warned of what the book’s subtitle called ‘The Fraying of America.’ Hughes broke down the origins of ‘us-as-victim vs. them’ thinking in the U.S. He ably demonstrated how it has been an integral feature of Americanism since the days of the first Puritans. He contended that PC – political correctness of the left and patriotic correctness of the right – was exacerbating the cultural disability to frightening levels of ignorant and irresponsible black-and-white thinking.

That Hughes identified a real problem might have been clear to rational minds within a decade of its publication. By the year 2000 that polar mentality was so prevalent, our future two-term President would play on it without even identifying just who the ‘them’ was:

“When I was coming up, it was a dangerous world, and you knew exactly who they were. It was us versus them, and it was clear who them was.  Today, we are not so sure who they are, but we know they’re there.” (George W. Bush 21 January 2000, on the campaign trail in Iowa)

In less than two years W found ‘them’ and distinguished himself with the rallying cry: “You’re either with us or you’re with the enemy.”

Of course, the 2016 Presidential candidates make Bush look like the model of judicious wisdom by comparison.

An entertaining look at how such dichotomous thinking pervades our culture is contained in Jon Ronson’s book Them: Adventures with Extremists. Ronson’s self-deprecating humor helps to shed light on how the process of polarization works subjectively.

628 responses to “Culture of Complaint

  1. Just ordered this book! It used to be OK to “agree to disagree” … difference in thought processes have become “toxic”, IMHO. Families & friendships are being destroyed by this “us vs them” ideal, let alone positive interaction in all areas of society (work, religions, schools, etc). So apparent when a “disagreement” instantly resorts to name calling and/or retaliation … because no one really knows who/what/why/how/when “we” and “them” drew the line in the sand. Thanks for sharing!

  2. Look, I will always hope for you, Monique and Williams protection from David Miscavige. I have never and will never agree with scientology dogma. You are free to do what you want. So am I. If you block this post, then I will unsubscribe. I do wish you well.

  3. ExIntStaffMember

    Couldn’t agree with you more. Political Correctness and facts are often two separate things. Being Offended is almost a profession in the US today. http://www.therebel.media/must_watch_paul_joseph_watson_tells_sjw_babies_f_your_feelings_after_they_cry_over_milo_yiannopoulos_event

  4. Thanks Marty. Sounds like a good book. It’s refreshing to see someone else identify polarization as the right why.

  5. Robert Almblad

    The Us vs Them thinking is very easy to fall into. Depending on where you were born either geographically or socially, these factors will undoubtedly determine the majority of the “Us vs Them” opinions around you…

    Breaking out of that “majority thinking” and standing up for human rights anywhere in the world is a challenging proposition, but I think it is making faster progress because of the internet.

    For instance, if women had equal rights (instead of being “owned” to one degree or another) around the world, their opinions would force their husbands to earn a living instead of joining an Us vs Them scheme to conquer some territory, religion or social structure at the cost of their family’s well being.

  6. This sort of behavior is nothing new. Looking at the early days of Dianetics, Hubbard was demonizing psychs from the very beginning. If instead he had shown some respect, saying “Freud and Jung have helped many people, we may have something to add to their knowledge”, things would have been very different. Like getting psychs to use the E-meter to help patients get over phobias or trauma. Some psychs do want to help.
    From what I can see, the psychs were initially supportive until they found out Hubbard was trashing them at every opportunity, then they turned nasty. To me, that says something about Hubbards tone level.
    Instead of integrating Clearing into existing therapies, Clearing was intended to destroy or supplant them. Let the war begin!
    The planet is poorer for Hubbard’s delaying widespread help in that area by trying to have it all, and control it all.

    • I think when Hubbard discovered that PDHing was actually practiced and forwarded by some practitioners of the supposedly “helping” psychological professions, he was genuinely outraged, but also decided to use his influence to change the scene by setting up a “them” for his followers to oppose. Don’t forget those particular practitioners would have a vested interest in third-partying Hubbard to keep the decent practitioners from discovering or speaking against their deeds by using clearing technology.

      Just as the church today, it seems no group effectively polices itself. Law Enforcement is an excellent contemporary example. There is a “thin blue line”: those who work in law enforcement often do protect and cover for each other. And there were psychologists consulting with the military on how to torture prisoners effectively. People may be “basically good”, but it is not a done deal that they always act that way.

      If you doubt the existence of revolting destructive behavior by psychiatrists in Hubbard’s day, just do some research on programs like MK-Ultra.

      Elliott aka Valkov

      • Hello Val. If anyone doubts the Psychiatric abuses of the past, just look at the number of children who are being given narcotics and how viciously the industry defends it’s authority to do so against all objections. What surprises me is the sheer number of verified cruelties in the name of ‘Mental Health’.
        Mark

      • In my opinion, the nasty behavior among psychiatrists as well as among Scientologists is an act of desperation for lack of good solutions.

    • I must admit, I am in general agreement with this opinion. My addition would be that I have no problem with Hubbard’s initial exposure of widespread mental health abuse. I do have a problem with his response to later attacks. His obsession with attacks eventually drowned out the value of his own work.

      Also, it is true that every workable knowledge in the mental field in the past was altered and made less workable by others who could not ‘have’ a science of the mind. This discovery magnified his own arrogance to the point of crushing out any correction or improvement to his work within the church.
      Mark

    • What you say couldn’t be more false James H.
      Hubbard tried by all means to be accepted by psychs, to let them have his discoveries, and they treated him and Dianetics like the worst thing.
      You had to wait for after 1980 that Hubbard became extreme with psychs.
      Scientology became what it is now due to Miscavige fascist dictatorship.

    • Hubbard was like the early Trump. He garnered attention by creating conflicts.

  7. First of all, Marty, it is good to see a blog from you. Blogs from you have very scarce for some time.

    I want to respond to more than one commentator here, at once:

    First Kathi and ExIntstaffM, Re: Political Correctness: Political correctness is a form of intellectual and perceptual dishonesty. It is a form of insanity, it is a form of lying (mental lying) . It is very bad. Political correct thinking is to see something that is not there. Or to see right where there is wrong and wrong where there is right. Or to make wrong right and right wrong. That is the definition of insanity. Political correct people are by definition insane.

    Another factor is that a very large % of the public does not know the difference between a fact and a belief. As Hubbard said; not knowing the difference between a belief and a fact (or truth) is the basis of all incompetence and insanity. It is also the basis for all conflict.

    The average public is a very stupid and ignorant entity. Everything they know about any subject that is of any significance is wrong. They think the truth is determined by authority, beliefs, opinions or and by who wins an argument..

    It is getting worse. It is getting increasingly sickening to listen to.

    There are many causes of this. Way too much to get into in detail on a blog. .

    The average public controls social media. And social media controls public opinion and the media and political outcomes.
    The government is a creation of the electorate. When the electorate becomes intelligent, honest and competent the politicians and government will become intelligent, honest and competent. There is no fault in a politician that a critic cannot find in himself. To find the cause of the problem with government, the critic has to look in the mirror for the cause.

    And another problem is that the average public has no clue what the truth is, and if someone does speak some real truth, they could be quickly eviscerated or crucified. This is a principle of the tone scale and Hubbard chart of human evaluation, where as Hubbard said (in my words) a person cannot handle any data that is more than half a point above him on the tone scale, or he will either boil over of it will go over his head.

    Now, if even the perfect most competent politician made it trough the campaign and got elected, he would be crucified in a very short amount of time. Because it is not safe to tell the real truth on this planet. Never has been. Earth has been correctly described as the asylum of this sector of the universe.

    In a political campaign a candidate cannot tell much real truth of any kind. If he does he will quickly get eviscerated or crucified. Like Megyn Kelly did to Trump. She is like a jackal. or a hyena.That is being nice to her. He has to tell some flavor of bullshit. The candidate who can tell or sell a flavor of bullshit that most appeals to the majority will win..

    Robert, You are being politically correct on your comment on equal rights for women. . The complete truth about women and rights is also too much to discuss here in detail. But is the biological nature of women to be owned by men. Humans are wired very similar to lions. We are territorial. A female lion cannot have a territory of her own. She can only have a territory within the territory of the alpha male lion. Watch what happens when a female or a subordinate male lion steps out of line. The alpha male quickly grabs her or him by the neck and gives it a few shakes, then everything is good until the next time. Women biologically like alpha males, who can control them with a strong hand. They get bitchy when they are not controlled with a strong hand with tone 40 voice. It is too bad that all male humans are not like that and that is the problem with human civilization.

    At the same time, it is in breach of biological law the laws of nature) for a woman to be a boss over a man. or to tell him what to do or disagree with him. If she does, she will rot his bones and his soul. to the degree she does.

    And this ties into Hubbard’s article on the role of women in society as written in the Science of Survival:

    I took liberty to correct some weak points, edit and expand it :

    The whole future of the race depends upon it’s attitude towards home and children; and a race which specializes in women for purposes outside the home and family  , or which believes that the contest of the sexes in the spheres of business and politics is a more worthier endeavour than the creation of tomorrow’s generation, is a race which is dying. It is a race which is headed towards arrmageddon and the apocalypse.

    We have, in the woman (the liberated woman and the feminist) who is an ambitious rival of the man in his own activities, a woman who is neglecting the most important mission she has.

    A society which looks down upon this mission and in which women are taught anything but the management of  home family, the care of husbands  and the creation of the next generation, is a society on it’s way out.

    It is in fact a crime against humanity of the worst kind. It is criminal negligence of the worst kind. It is sexual misconduct and prostitution of the worst kind. It is genocide of the worst kind. The amount of crime and the breakdown of society is directly proportional to failure on the homefront. The breakdown of society, is directly proportional to the number of women leaving the full time management of home and family  and competing in business and politics on an equal basis with men.

    For society or civilization to survive, women must  have their own “economy”. It has to consist of everything that makes a better home, better children, better husbands, church,  better neighborhoods and local community.  There is a right way and a wrong way to do everything. Anything that is not done that is not in alignment with the laws of nature or God’s laws will fail.
    Failure is feedback from the universe that something was not in alignment with the laws of nature, universal, law or the laws of right and wrong, or God’s laws.

    We are all only as good as we have been bred and brought up.

    All of our problems are due to what our parents did to us or for us that they should not have done to us or for us, and what our parents did not do to us or for us, that they should have done to us or for us.

    In other words all of our problems are due to failed parenting.
    Another way to say it is: All of our problems are due to unGodly sexual practices, unGodly breeding practices  and unGodly lifestyle practices.

    If you have a problem with the product, you have to check with the factory for the cause of the problem.

    The historian can peg the point where a society begins it’s sharpest decline at the instant when women abandon post the  homefront  and begin to take part, on an equal footing with men, in political and business affairs; since this means men are decadent or incompetent and the women are no longer women.

    This is not a misogynistic rant, it is a statement of bold and basic fact.

    This  is a sermon for the love of true and honest women (bonafide women) and for the love of humanity.
    It is a sermon on truth to prevent the destruction of civilization.

    When the full time management of home and family become unimportant to a society, that society has forfeited it’s future. Even beyond the bearing and rearing of children, a human being does not seem to be complete without a relationship without the opposite sex.

    This relationship is the vessel wherein is nurtured the life force of both individuals, whereby they create the future of the race in body and thought. If man is to raise to greater heights, then women must rise with him, or even before him. But she must rise as a woman and not as today she is being misled into rising -as a man. It is the hideous joke of foolish frustrated, unvirile men (and women) to make make women into the travesty they have become.

    The creative care and handling of men is an artful and beautiful task. Those who would cheat women of their rightful place in the home, by making them into men should at least realize that by this action they are not only destroying the women, but the children and men of the future as well.

    This is too great a price to pay for being modern or for somebody’s petty and irrational anger or spite against the true  biological role of the female sex.

    The arts and skills of woman, the creation and inspiration of which she is capable of and which- here and there in isolated places in our culture– she still manages to effect in spite of the ruin and decay of man’s world which spreads around her, (caused by failed parenting) must be brought newly and fully into life. These arts and skills and creation and inspiration are her beauty, just as she is the beauty of mankind.

    A woman who does anything else other than looking after home, children and husband is not only a prostitute, but a criminal of the worse kind. Guilty of causing the ultimate genocide, the destruction of civilization. It is only a matter of time. Only women can cause the destruction of civilization. That is called the apocalypse. Men will never cause the destruction of civilization. Women will cause the apocalypse by not properly looking after the home, children and husbands. Children who are not brought up properly and properly emotionally and mentally nourished, become psychotic and mad and become terrorists.

    Today’s  modern women, think they are smarter than God. 
    It was the same back in the day’s of when the book of Genesis was written.

    Feminists and liberated women evidently get their advice from snakes.

    Man woman equality is equal to a dead battery.

    The only sexual misconduct in the military is women in the military. Women in business and politics is the same.

    There is

    A woman is designed to be  a helper to a man and only a helper. If a woman bosses a man she will  cause a man’s bones and soul to rot.

    When women do men’s activities  they lose their true feminimity to that degree. Eventually women become the men they want to marry. Today’s most modern women have “balls”. Those types of women are poisonous to men.

    Then they wonder and cry what is wrong with men today?

    What man in his right mind wants to marry another man?

    If a man is not assisted BY a woman to reach his full potential AS A
    MAN, then the man will go mad and turn to war to wipe out the woman indirectly.
    In the process, in today’s type of wars, he could take out all of civilization.
    That is the way women will destroy civilization.
    That is the cause of the apocalypse.

    Women have to bring up their sons to be Godly men, and they have to bring up their daughters to be Godly women.
    Women hold all the cards.
    The war front is caused by failure on the home front.
    All of society’s problems are caused by failure on the home front.

    • Using L, Ron Hubbard as a reference source is like using the National Enquirer as a reference source. Some people are more attracted to people of their own sex. It’s been that way since the beginning.

    • Dio? Is it a joke? KKK would look modern compared to you!
      Free woman are creating terrorist?
      Well, I would say middle age creatures, slaves of man, Islamists are creating terrorists.
      I agree with you that woman should take care more of the family but your theory is also the same than the Third Reich. German woman had to raise children to make men!
      The text of Hubbard of science of survival is from 1951, another time, a long gone ideology. Himself he wouldn’t think that way later on.
      I’m a europeen. Are there many american like you? Maybe you don’t vote Trump, he is too much on the left!

      • I am an American man and Dio. is full of shit. I treat women well and equal as intended by the Almighty. My boss says women are more reliable in anything and he hires mostly women! Dio has a Nazi mind.

    • Hello Dio.
      It was quite bold and courageous of you to post this piece.

      Men and women have been around for a very long time. The roles they play have been honed and practiced much longer than they can confront. The circumstances change but the rules remain much the same throughout.

      The bald face truth is that when you and I were born, we chose our roles. When roles and purposes are changed mid game, there is always trouble. If someone wants to play the game, they must play the role they have chosen. If the game is to change, agreement MUST be secured, roles MUST be announced. Otherwise there will be problems. If problems, increased randomity, more conflict, is what one desires, then one should own it, play that role honestly.

      In other words, the game, the role one is playing is not necessarily good or bad, but so many wish to play many roles and then place responsibility for their foibles on others. An individual’s life belongs to them, not everyone else. When an individual chooses to play the role of a woman and then demand that others recognize them as a man, or visa-versa, then they should simply accept the difficulties that result.

      An individual’s life belongs to the individual. They must own and be causative over it.
      Mark

    • FrenchIndieScio

      Dio., your posting is nothing but a misogynistic rant. No woman wants you and you blame it on women and the society. How about blaming yourself? Who wants a loser man with those backwards ideas as you got them?

      Your words: “A woman who does anything else other than looking after home, children and husband is not only a prostitute, but a criminal of the worse kind.”

      Jesus Christ! You are stuck in the year 0111.

      Modern life got so complex and expensive that most women can’t afford to stay home. One who has a family, knows how expensive it is. You can’t expect a woman and kids live from your welfare check.

      Post evidence of your monthly income, Dio., let’s see if you can pay for that free servant for kitchen and bed that you want.

      During history, men stopped providing for women. Tired of sitting at home, hungry and beaten by their lousy drunken husband, they learned to become self-sufficient. Good for them.

      Women don’t destroy the world. Morons like you do.

      Blame yourself, loser.

    • Dio is a troll. I might add that I asked my wife if she liked to be bossed around by a man or anyone. She said that Dio is CLUELESS as to what women want. What they don’t want is a man like Dio. who came to this blog for one reason only: to air and push his KKK/Nazi agenda.

  8. Great post, Marty. I hope what you had to endure from the CoS has some compensation in what you learned as a result and passed on to many others.

    Just to let you know, I think I understand now what you were saying about Scientology auditing having the potential to be harmful – which related to the degree it solidifies the ego. I’ve recently studied some of the non-dual teachings, and I can see how that can be true about the tech and that it would make the individual less free rather than more so. I also got that you thought the tech could be practiced in a way that didn’t have this danger, and I think that this would be the case if the practitioner understood this basic principle of the ego and how it is a false “self” that leads in the opposite direction of awakening or enlightenment.

    Best wishes to you and yours.

    • Maridli how do you see that? If you get audited solidity get off the case, then you don’t stuck to identity. You are more free, less ego.. This story of ego is old stuff. The point is that the idea of self put a curtain between you and the rest of things.
      To hold on one identity, to mock up obsessively is discusssed on HCOB of 1969 “Why thetans mock up?” in class 8. It’s supposed to be OTVIII data (nothing to do with fake OTlevel called Truth revealed, which reveal nothing nor handle no amnesia).
      When you have no more solidity then no ego.
      So audting don’t confort ego. But some scientologists use as a statut the fact they did OT levels, this is ego. They are probably falied cases due to out tech in Miscavology.
      Actual scientology well applied still make free people…

      • Hi FG,

        You wrote: “If you get audited, solidity gets off the case, then you don’t get stuck to identity. You are more free, less ego.”

        I basically agree with you on that. What I said, to be exact, was that auditing CAN solidify the ego, but that it doesn’t have to. The way I think that could happen would be if the auditor’s TRs were bad and there were mis-acknowledgments, evaluation or invalidation – all based on the auditors own egoic considerations.

        Nevertheless, this potential situation would be less likely to occur if the auditor and/or the pc were educated on the subject of ego. I also feel that having an awareness of the effects of ego would likely keep people from accepting authoritarian control and group think, as ego is greatly affected by group culture. These are the reasons I think it was the missing factor in Scientology.

        • Aren’t you just talking about a lack of pan-determinism on the part of the auditor? Basically isn’t that what “ego” is, an identification? From there it is “effect on others, no effect on self”, etc. Those are all barriers to auditing. That’s “bad auditing”. No auditing is actually taking place.

    • All “selves” are false and not just the ego.

      • Vinnie, do you know that from direct experience? Or is it part of a religious dogma?🙂

        • Marildi, one can make dogma out of what I said, or by saying just the opposite of what I said.

          Accusation of dogma may come from not liking something.

          • I wasn’t accusing you, just asking. I was basically curious if you knew from direct experience that all selves are false.

            • Define direct experience of false self.

            • The only way one discovers an illusion, assumption or false premise is when logic that follows from it simply does not make sense. Many contradictions arise when one assumes a permanent self.

              I have written a lot on this subject in the past. If you are serious about it I can give you some stuff to read.

              • “The only way one discovers an illusion, assumption or false premise is when logic that follows from it simply does not make sense.”

                Well then, Vinnie, that’s where we differ, because I don’t consider that logic is the most valid way to know, certainly not the only way to know. Here’s a quote from your hero🙂 :

                “The intuitive mind is a sacred gift and the rational mind is a faithful servant. We have created a society that honors the servant
                and has forgotten the gift.” – Albert Einstein

                • But my hero Albert was not from East. He could not let go of a matter-centric viewpoint. Please see

                  https://vinaire.me/2016/03/20/spacetime-1-speed-wavelength-period-and-frequency/
                  .

                • Intuition is based on an inherent sense of logical consistency.
                  .

                  • I can see that as theoretically true, but the way I view it is that the mind of an individual human being would rarely have all the necessary data. It would be analogous to comparing one person’s mind to all the data in a huge computer. The “computer” in this case would be the entire “storage banks” of consciousness/awareness/spirit as a whole or as a unity.

                    • You only need the top level data and the ability to narrow it down.

                    • V……”You only need the top level data and the ability to narrow it down.”
                      BUT how would anyone know that they are looking at that ”’top level data”’ and how would they could get that ability-insight in the first place?
                      Care to explain this to me please?

                    • The top level data in any subject shall be the premises and observations that subject started out with and the principles it formulated as a result. One then follows logical consistency among that fundamental data to understand what he needs to. When he comes across logical inconsistencies among the fundamendata available and no data can be found to explain it then he has to use his intuition to generate a hypothesis and create expriments to verify it.

                      For example, in studying Quantum Mechanics, one would look up the definition of Quantum and find out what it applied to. One would then look at how that concept came about and would come to know about the ‘Ultraviolet catastrophe’. One would then study the experiments done with Blackbody radiation and the models to describe the atomic structure and so on. He shall be studying the scientific discoveries made in the first quarter of 20th century.

                      The universe is all data. That data is available to direct and indirect observation, more so today in the age of information. It is much easier to search the data today for what one needs to know. It is enhanced by Subject Clearing.

                      https://vinaire.me/2014/05/01/subject-clearing/

                      Here is an application of it.

                      https://vinaire.me/2014/01/11/mindful-subject-clearing-physics/

                      Hope this helps.

                    • Thank V…. for the info… I was just interested how you come to the conclusion what is the ”top level” on any subject… so reaching the ”top level” do not means there is no more to that subject but just for the researcher, s/h cant locate more info on that subject.
                      thank your generous offer but I wont be using your method, I will stay with the Tech. solo auditing.

                    • Vin, that’s a good description of conventional/orthodox science (at least Western science), but your example of “intuition” as part of it is still a matter of data based on physical universe evidence – which doesn’t fit the definition of intuition:

                      “[1] a natural ability or power that makes it possible to know something without any proof or evidence… [2] something that is known or understood without proof or evidence” http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/suggestions/intuition.i

                      Per the second definition, intuition is data/information which isn’t found by researching records – at least not physical universe records. According to one view – in both the ancient East and now in the West – intuition is information that is recorded in universal consciousness. Tom Campbell describes it as the “data base” of the entire historical record of the physical universe and the non-physical beings in it.

                      Tom is a scientist (a physicist) and a consciousness researcher who did his research of consciousness using full scientific protocol. In this short video, he describes how to query the data base (which your ancestors called the Akashic record). This makes sense to me as to how intuition works:

                    • My science covers both physical and metaphysical, which are the aspects of the same universe. There is no such thing as a “physical universe” because you cannot have physical without metaphysical. Physical is the outward appearance, metaphysical is the inner essence.

                      The definition of intuition that you are quoting are based on the assumption that physical and metaphysical are absolute and independent of each other. In science there are thought experiments. Such experiments were carried out by Einstein. The proof is demonstrated in terms physical/metaphysical logical consistency. This is how theoretical models of relativity, atomic structure, quantum mechanics etc. were created. These scientific models are never the final word. They are continued to be improved as logical inconsistencies are spotted and the model is updated to resolve them. Intuition is very much a part of this process.

                      It is not the recorded information that is important. What is important is the ability to think critically and creatively on one’s feet. If data is available then it still needs to be verified for logical consistency within the context one is using. If no data is available one generates consistent models from known data and uses thought and physical experiments to generate and verify new data.

                    • Vin: “The definition of intuition that you are quoting are based on the assumption that physical and metaphysical are absolute and independent of each other.”

                      Okay, but then how would you yourself define intuition? I mean an actual definition, rather than a long description of the whole process it is allegedly involved with and then simply stating that “Intuition is very much a part of this process.”

                      Basically, you haven’t described anything that is distinct from “logical consistency,” so it seems that for you there is nothing else. On the other hand, if you do think intuition exists as something distinct, you should be able to say what it is in the form of a clear-cut definition. That would make it clear.

                    • Intuition is perceiving the continuity, consistency and harmony of the universe at all levels.

                    • Vin, I like that concept but it isn’t clear what you mean by “all levels” or by “perceiving.” Are you including a level of perception that isn’t through any physical means, or through the means of mental reasoning from known physical universe data?

                      That level would be the dictionary definition of intuition – which doesn’t require belief that such a thing exists, just an understanding of the idea being communicated when the word is used.

                      However, there is a lot of indirect, physical universe evidence that intuition does exist and that there is a level of data that can potentially be perceived (and communicated) through what Tom Campbell calls intention or “intent,”
                      which he explains in this short video. (In that other video I posted, about the Akashic record, he explains where the data comes from.)

        • Self and ego are the same thing. They are different degrees on the same scale.

        • It is like Hubbard falsely differentiating between individuality and identity. If you look at it mindfully you find that individuality is the core of identity,

          See https://vinaire.me/2012/10/21/identity-versus-individuality/
          .

  9. I guess its opposite is the post-modern ‘everything is equal’ narrative. Both should be acknowledged.

  10. I believe the public is well aware of dichotomous thinking. It’s brought to mind every time political gridlock is mentioned. I don’t see many solutions being offered. Here’s one, a bumper sticker reading:
    Compromise Works

  11. Yin/yang, Israel/Palestine even male/female. It becomes
    very calming when you make yourself look from both
    viewpoints. You lose that jaggedness “extremism” produce.
    The middle road is easier to travel (as has been said here
    before).

  12. gretchendewire

    Read Eckart Tolle ” The Power Of Now.

  13. For those who might be clueless as to what goes on out there on the internet, let me present for you the ‘village idiot’ part that is so often seen on internet ‘gatherings’ regarding scientology.

    Employing sockpuppets, they’d probably say something really intelligent about this like: “But, Marty, I’m confused. You’re not against the Church of Scientology any more?”

    COMPLETELY missing the point. Let alone the dolphins and the fishing. (that last bit is for Marty only).

    Virginia McClaughry

  14. Mark Rathbun.
    Good to see you active with your posts again.
    Mark

  15. “You just cannot look at things that are wrong in the world, putting them in piles, labeling them, and then joining together in groups to push against them, without depriving yourself of the point of attraction that you must accomplish in order to let in all that you consider to be good.”
    Esther Hicks

  16. Interesting, if a bit disheartening Op Ed piece.

    Us vs. Them. It’s all around us.

    Take Donald Trump, instinctive showman. He’s constantly saying things like, “We need to make America great again.”

    Pronoun= “We”. The listener is included in his camp. The listener is part of that greater group, “American”.

    IMO, Americans are growing wearily of feeling divided, yet remain suspicious of the “other side”.

    Contrast Ted Cruz, who is constantly whining, “I’m the only true conservative.”

    Pronoun=”I”. He’s not including me. And I think this points to the problem with much of the GOP today: Too many of them in Congress consider that they are Christians first, Republicans second, and Americans after that.

    I don’t think the increasing culture of victim hood explains everything that seems to be going wrong, but it is certainly a malevolent influence in our society.

    This simple use of pronouns I believe accounts for a good deal of Trump’s popularity.

  17. Everything in the natural world is polarized. Up/down, in/out, right/left.

    The atoms themselves operate on this principal. Electricity gets its functioning from positive/negative.

    Human beings are imprinted by this natural split. It becomes a mental tendency: us and them. It’s natural in the spiritually asleep state.

    This dual nature is neutralized greatly by the realization of Oneness. By neutralizing the constant occultations of thought, the spawning ground for intellectual polarization; the yogi directly perceives the undifferentiated substance beneath the constant flux of nature: consciousness

    Consciousness is the fulcrum upon which our dualistic tendencies swing.

    Most people’s consciousness is on the outer edges of the swing going up and down, up and down up and down. Never taking time to notice that there is something unmoving upon with the dual movement has its existence.

    When the fulcrum is directly perceived, there is great joy. That is because the dualistic nature doesn’t necessarily cease, but from the still point of the fulcrum, change can be enjoyed and not identified with. We are safe at home.

    In the still point of Spirit/soul/God/the fulcrum, we can see all points of view. We can hear other’s views with kindness and respect.

    That is because the still point is wisdom itself, joy itself, selfless service itself. Misunderstanding has no chance against feeling the whole universe as our own body. All souls as our own self. Then we love all and are threatened by none.

    Such a soul is a boon to his family and community.

    • Brian: “That is because the still point is wisdom itself, joy itself, selfless service itself. Misunderstanding has no chance against feeling the whole universe as our own body. All souls as our own self. Then we love all and are threatened by none.”

      Good post, Brian, and very nicely written.

      I don’t mean to offend, but how does what you say in what I quoted above relate to the unceasing complaints on blogs about Hubbard and Scientology?

      Btw, I myself have come to the conclusion that LRH’s biggest outpoint, with regard to the overall failure of Scientology and the tech, and his own personal failure as well, was due to him not recognizing the huge influence of ego on individuals and not addressing it in the tech.

      He did include ser facs, but those were only handled “provisionally,” as per the cert, and not addressed again later (as far as I know). And he did include adopted valences, to a degree, but he didn’t recognize that even one’s own valence/beingness is a synthetic identity that comes about as a result of all the accumulated considerations and reactions, both the “positive” and the “negative.” The focus was on the negative, pain and associations with it.

      • Hi Marildi! I hope all is well.

        The us vs. them mindset can be neutralized. My post addresses that. Judgementalism, something i distinguish from making a judgement, is a polarized mindset that can be overcome through the thoughts I posted. They worked for me to overcome my judgementalism and I thought I’d share.

        Indeed, the ego was not addressed by Ron. In fact it was glorified by Ron.
        Ron promoting himself as the “only one” to find the “real” truth that every other sage missed, because they did not intuit implants, is the delusion of ego. He could not address the ego as a problem because the ego served the image he marketed to us.

        In my studies and practices, the ego can only be neutralized by what every sage prescribes. The info is out there. And they all say the same thing in essence.

        Warm Regards to you Marildi.

        • Hi there, Brian. Warm regards to you too.🙂

          You wrote: “Ron promoting himself as the ‘only one’ to find the ‘real’ truth that every other sage missed, because they did not intuit implants, is the delusion of ego. He could not address the ego as a problem because the ego served the image he marketed to us.”

          Actually, he said there was no monopoly on truth and, if I got it right, that Scientology was based on the ancient truths of Buddhism and the Tao (whether that was factual or not). It was the tech that he said was the only road out (factual or not)

          In any case, I think if implants were looked at as being figurative, metaphorical or mythical expressions of our deepest, most basic identifications with self, the goal to as-is them might make more sense.

          Elizabeth Hamre has been solo auditing for several decades, and she has posted many comments to the effect that even the seemingly positive attributes of the ego-self, such as as the striving to achieve, to get ahead, and to be accepted in a group or groups – i.e., all human endeavors – are “implants” and what keep us attached to this illusion we call reality.

          • What Ron says and who Ron is are not the same person.

            “Love despite all provocations to do otherwise”
            “Ruin them utterly”

            No monopoly on truth? I believe he says these benevolent things to sound like a Messiah.

            ” In all the broad Universe there is “No Other Hope” for Man than ourselves”. Ron’s Journal 67

            Ron liked to sound wise and benevolent. His his high minded sentiments in words do not match his real motive and actions. His actual state of being and character.

            When Ron states that there is no other hope for human beings but him, it is an unquestionable revelation of a megalomaniacal ego. Not only did Ron want to take over the planet, Ron wanted to take over the universe. That is an unstable mind, a distorted self perception: negative ego.

            Just think about it Marildi. No other hope but me, Ron, the originator of the only technique to help mankind.

            Also on some tape he states that Buddha was only keyed out clear. So he puts himself above Buddha.

            I have pity for Ron and I hope he’s happy. But the man was a perfect study of selfish ego. I say that with no hate or disdain.

            And his students, those that give him altitude, reflect these doctrines in their psychological profile.

            We are the cream of the cream.
            We are the only ones to save the earth.
            There has never been a clear before Scientology.
            There has never been a true OT before Scientology
            Mystics are implanted beings (in this one sentiment he denigrates all the wisemen and women in history)
            I am the only one to find and go through the Wall of Fire etc etc.

            Yes, I agree, the OT materials are metaphors for cognitive states. But that view was not shared by Ron. So in that sense you are a squirrel.

            I believe people now consider the space opera stuff a metaphor because there is a sort of embarrassment now to associate ourselves with the idea that we actually believe the psych, Farsec, Ron is Lucifer, Mars is an implant station, Venus is an implant station, we are infested to countless beings that may cause hundreds of thousand of dollars to run out.

            Ron believed every word in my opinion.

            Con men do not wish to electrocute themselves with an emeter and commit suicide to free oneself of BTs.

            Only an unstable man with mental problems, living a life of selfishness and ego, betraying friends and family and defrauding us with the promise of 100% standard tech, stable exterior with full perception, could arrive at his pitiable state of delusional paranoia and the end of life.

            Where ever you are Ron, God bless you and help you to work out what you need to work out.

            Marildi, I have no faith or confidence when anyone tries to prove a point with “Ron says.” Ron said a lot. But what he said and who he was were not the same person.

            A true sages words mirror his or her actions perfectly. That is because sages are wedded uncompromisingly to truth. At any cost.

            • Brian, why should I not get the idea that where Ron is concerned you are “obsessed with grievance” ((quoting the blog post)?

              I must have seen hundreds of your posts all saying pretty much the same thing. Even when the blog post, here or on Mike’s, isn’t about Ron, you interject a long comment about him being the blame for all the trouble.

              What would the sages say about this? Seems to me like overkill.

            • christianscientology

              Hi Brian
              What I gained from Scientology was the ability to understand, and this is the hook that catches us all. To eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, which translates into “I’m right you are wrong”.
              We were never told we could not eat from the tree of live (LOVE) but we were warned that if we ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil we should surely die.
              Love with understanding
              Pip

    • Brian
      Truth be told. It’s a two pole universe. Here and there, us and them, you and I. And you put it so beautifully. The way you described the being as not a member of either side, but behaves as though he were.
      In my line of thinking, the being is the inventor of the whole idea of poles, opposites, partnerships. Since then, it has been drummed into us, like Chinese school arithmetic.
      The trick is to be able to play the middle, either end, anywhere in between, or off the board entirely, according to current need. Real freedom is the freedom to operate freely.
      Mark

    • Even atoms are held together by neutral ground, so there is never just + and – at a mechanical level. How can one perceive the fulcrum?

      • How can people find the fulcrum? In my case I got tired of suffering. And my intense interest and curiosity led me to meditation and a teacher. I had to find the cause of suffering and ignorance. It became an intense focus and passion. Greater than any other desire.

        There is a saying,”when the student is ready the teacher arrives.” That’s how I did it.

        Some people don’t like teachers, but there are teachings.

        These are the tools I have used to find that still point within:

        1) self inquiry
        2) daily meditation
        3) constructive self criticism
        4) studying of right knowledge
        5) thinking of others happiness
        6) keeping attuned to my teacher

        • I want to end the suffering – or the one who appears to define and own the desirable and resist the undesirable.

          • I wish you every success Letting Go:-)

            • What is ignorance? If you’d rather not explain, can you recommend a text that describes it in plain language?

              • Ignorance in essence is: not knowing. Not perceiving truth but being stuck in a lie is ignorance. And seeing no way out.
                Also ignorance, spiritually. is losing our memory of our all supplying nature. What my many years has taught me Letting Go is the essence of true knowledge is that we have a supreme state of being always supplying us with inspiration, courage, joy, faith, love, friendship, devotion, happiness on and on. And it is as a fount of awe. And it needs no object to arouse this state. It’s endless.

                I always found it interesting:

                When I left in 82 nobody used the term “our eternity,” Saying someone will loose their “eternity” is an ignorant statement, How can a fish loose it’s wetness?

                I do from time to time recommend the book Autobiography of a Yogi. Yogananda’s story is very interesting. The cosmology that the masters operate from is very inspiring. Many who read this book go off on their own path and do not follow Yogananda’s lineage. That’s how great he is.

                Ya know, I gotta tell ya. There is nothing like have a mother bird watching over our shoulder. I find it envigirating, learning from my elder bros and sisters. Their radiance and generosity is rooted in love only.

                There has been some big ass betrayal on the guru front, eh my fellows x Scientologists?

                • Thanks for the recomendation. I got the book a while back and have now decided to read it. I’m about a quarter way through. So far, it contains descriptions of what would be termed in “OT abilities” in SCN (which I no longer believe myself), plus potential confirmation that oneness as talked about by Lisa Cairns on youtube is indeed a real experience. It is engagingly written and hopefully will shed more light on actual practice and possibly spiritual darkness.

                  • Letting Go, Everything can be put in the trash bin but this one fact; Meditation delivers the goods if that practice is met with regularity, devotion and curiosity.
                    Believe nothing-experience everything.

                    • Succinct advice, and thank you for your patiance. I am considering MBSR.

                      Say, are objects and awareness interdependent?

                    • “Are objects and awareness independent?”
                      A similar question is: Are the objects in our dream state separate from us?

                      Or is a wave separate from the ocean? Yes and no. But, awareness can exist without an object. But objects objects cannot exist without awareness.

                      Objects are the dream which are dreamed by the dreamer. In fact, Jnana yoga, the yoga of knowledge, uses the doctrine of discrimination between consciousness and matter. There is a sanskrit term “Neti Neti” which means ‘not this, not that.’ In other words, the ultimate spiritual reality, us, is not defined by ‘this or that.’ Not defined by name and form.

                      Yet, where do dreams come from? They are born out of the dreamer.

                      There is also a state of awareness where the knower, the knowing and the known become the same. In that regard it’s hard to separate the whole.

                      But for spiritual practice and spiritual thought; “the I am not the objects of perception” discrimination is important because it yields realizations about our incorporeal nature. So in that sense, objects and the knower are different. But one is born from the other. Awareness manufactures perception.

                    • More thoughts Letting gGo:

                      “The Spirit differentiates Its manifestations in creation into two sets of distinctly different attributes: the invisible soul and its powers of life mind and wisdom; and the visible forms of vibratory body and matter.

                      By use of fine vibrations, the Spirit created the soul, intellect mind life; and, by gross vibrations body, kinetic energy at atomic matter. The “weapons” of earth or solids, of fire or energy, of water or liquids, of air or wind-all of these constitute gross vibrations.

                      The soul, the individualized reflection of Spirit, is made of a vibrationless or reactionless vibration of joy; the immortal, omniscient, omnipresent, ever new Bliss of Spirit- it cannot be disturbed by the growth vibrations of solids, liquids, air, or energy. Ice collides with ice, water dashes against water, energy is matched against energy; but stones cannot impinge upon the finer vibratory elements of air or fire. Similarly, gross vibrations of matter or “atomic stones” cannot in any way in impose a cruelty on soul consciousness.”

                      God Talks To Arjuna, Paramahansa Yogananda
                      1st Volume, verse 23, page 221/222

                    • Hello Brian – I’m reviewing the comments today. It’s nice to see you’re still around! Wherever it came from, scn or whatever, I apply “times over equals certainty”. Thanks for your continued sharing.
                      Richard

                    • I have enjoyed reading Yogananda’s autobiography, and feel it holds a message of optimism. However, towards the end (now in chapter 46, The Woman Yogi Who Never Eats) it is becoming increasingly unreal and implausible to me. Is it really necessary to employ impossible ideals to bring us closer to ourselves? Coming from scientology, I am wary of such methods. Also, I wonder if there isn’t a more ordinary, straightforward approach that requires belief system and does not frame the inner experience in an eternal journey toward the creator? The description of the astral and causal planes given by Sri Yukteswar make the three planes sound like a spiritual water filter to me. While I type this, I wonder if this sounds blasphemous, and yet I feel compelled to ask these questions.

                    • Sorry, that should have read “requires no belief system”.

                    • Letting Go:

                      Keep researching and experimenting until you find that path which resonates with your nature.

                      There is no one way, one and only truth. If the “yogi cause over matter” stuff rubs you the wrong way, dump it, move on and find that path that brings you hope, happiness and spiritual well being.

                      I am not selling my path here. i am a cheerleader for all valid paths. Find yours.

    • Brian: “In my studies and practices, the ego can only be neutralized by what every sage prescribes. The info is out there. And they all say the same thing in essence.”

      I get that idea too (from what little I know!🙂 ). The American non-dual teacher Adyashanti says that the values of ego are such things as
      “competition, being understood, being loved, being better than others, having control, being a victim – or a victimizer” (which may be pertinent to the blog post) as well as “blame, judgement and condemnation” (pertinent to this thread). And also the value of separation, since that is the basis of this game of life.

      Awakened values, on the other hand, he describes as inherent in conscious spirit (theta), as opposed to being learned and accumulated over lifetimes, the way ego values are. The awakened values include truthfulness, unity (in contrast with separateness) – and freedom, since conscious spirit is itself free. Freedom includes “freedom for all beings” (quoting Adyashanti again). Other awakened values he lists out are peace gratitude, love – again, all of these being inherent in spirit.

      There are LRH references that say essentially the same things Adyashanti is saying – but the tech itself does not directly address the primary importance of transcending egoic human beingness and attaining a state of conscious presence, conscious spirit. It mainly focuses on the negative experiences and stored pain – which is only part of what forms our human way of being.

      I believe this is why LRH himself, in spite of his words about ultimate truth, operated from the thoughts and views he accumulated as a result of all that he had experienced in his present and past lives. He never regained the state of Operating Thetan – which really means operating from our most basic nature, spirit/theta. If he had done so, it would have transformed his whole way of operating in the world, his whole way of relating and existing, because the natural values of theta would have been his guide.

      Here’s a 10-minute Adyashanti video about ego vs. spirit values.

      • Nice video Marildi. I would also add one more view to his. The Gita of Krishna adds to this in a positive way.

        Krishna doesn’t say don’t go after things. In fact it’s impossible to be human and not go after things.

        From the Yogic perspective we can try to make as much money as we want. The key is to do it from that inner center that this person talks about.
        We offer the fruits of our actions to God. We act in the state of service. We don’t become attached to the outcome. We can be billionaires or thousandaires. It really doesn’t matter. Even competition can be done in a positive way.

        Selfishness knows no class distinction. The Gita teaches that both wealth and poverty, health and sickness should be understood in their rightful place as Maya. In other words wealth does not inherently bring us happiness and poverty does not inherently bring us despair.

        By neutralizing the pairs of opposites which project from our incorporeal nature, we come to realize that joy, wisdom, freedom, bliss and all these desired qualities are not found in the pairs of opposites. It is found within ourselves as ourselves. These qualities are us. We are existence. We are consciousness. We are the happiness and fulfilling joy we seek.

        Tat Tvam Asi (Thou Art That)

        So it’s ok to want to be a millionaire. And it’s ok to not want much money. The key is to not be attached to the outcome. And to always see the impermanence in all external realities. And to see the permanence of our immortal being as the only valid happiness and fulfillment. Then we don’t get lost anymore: forever.

        • Interesting comment, Brian. I had a cognition on what you wrote here:

          “By neutralizing the pairs of opposites which project from our incorporeal nature, we come to realize that joy, wisdom, freedom, bliss and all these desired qualities are not found in the pairs of opposites.”

          The ability gained on Grade 1 is “to recognize the source of problems and make them vanish.” It seems to me that this would effectively be “neutralizing pairs of opposites” and that it would bring about the desired qualities you mentioned. Wow – that grade alone could be a road to freedom if practiced diligently.

          • Yes, that is a great ability gained. Constantly being gained. It’s an on going process.
            I agree with you. If we take just one truth and apply it with passion and focus, we can go a long way. It’s almost if the entire library of knowledge is contained in a singular truth. The All and Everything is contained in a humble singularity as well as the whole.

            I keep learning the same lesson on deeper and deeper levels over and over.The expansion of awareness and knowledge knows no ending.

            What an amazing life!

            Thanks for pointing out that relation with the grades Marildi. So true.

            • Brian “Thanks for pointing out that relation with the grades Marildi. So true.”

              Glad you can see it too!

              I don’t know if “grades” (plural) was a typo or you wrote it on purpose, because besides Grade 1, I can see each of the grades as a whole path in itself. The Grades are sort of like a hologram, where every part is both an aspect of and the implies the whole itself.

              In fact, Grade 4 principles as a way of life is probably what some other paths consist of, in essence. And the practice of those principles would handle ego, since ego is basically a way to make oneself right.

              Practicing the principles in all the grades, as one’s path, we could call the Noble Fivefold path.🙂

        • christianscientology

          Thanks for this post Brian. The particular phrase that stood out for me was:- “We are existence” nice one!

          • You are welcome Mr Love Man!🙂 And thank you Pip for being the cheer leader for love. Lately it seems to me to be the most important of all virtues. So liberating, so ego dissolving. And such an amazing benefit to our friends, family and world.

            I honor that in you Pip.

            • christianscientology

              Thanks Brian for your validation. Yes perfect love casts out fear and the ego could be defined as the sum total of fear in an individual, and as we know fear is False Evidence Appearing Real.

              Love with understanding
              Pip

    • One may look at duality as polarization just to make it more complicated.

      When you look at a scale it has two ends. For example, Good and evil lie on the same scale. That is how duality is related to non-duality. Non-duality part is the scale. Duality part is the two ends of that scale.
      .

  18. Dear Marty

    Thank you for this information about complaints.

    Please allow me to share this with you:

    The problem as I see it, is there is a whole swath of beings whom the Church currently does not cater to. Those neglected brethren I am referring to here, are the beings without bodies. Shortly I will shed this current bag of bones (in two weeks time my body will be 60-years-old). So when I ‘leave the building’, why should I have to acquire a new body in order to continue services? If one simply remains exterior, due to not going the ‘inhabiting another body route’, one will not then need to bother exteriorizing one’s soul with processing. There are also other benefits. The Running Program would be so much easier without a body — not being located in space, one would be at the beginning and the end of the running track at the same time. Therefore, completion of the program would be instantaneous, due to no time being involved to move from start to finish. The Purification Rundown would be no sweat, because one would have no sweat to sweat out. And why shouldn’t one be right at the cutting edge, right there with the latest and greatest and thoroughly up-to-date stuff Ron is messing with? Afterall, this is the latest research he’s been working on for years now; what he’s been involved with since 2000 hours, Friday 24 January 1986. “The body he had used to facilitate his existence in this universe had ceased to be useful and had become an impediment to the work he must do outside its confines.” (Hollywood Palladium announcement of LRH’s passing).

    • Eamonn, just a few thoughts:

      Scienttology is the only group I know, or should I say Ron is the only person I know that claims exteriorization as the goal of spiritual practice.

      Buddha, Jesus and countless other teachers never said that. In fact it is just the opposite. They say taking a human body is important. Having a human body a privilege to learn our lessons.

      Sure, we are not bodies and minds, we are incorporeal souls; thetans.

      But what got us into this mess is our attachment to bodies. These attachments and the suffering it causes needs to be understood through wisdom and directly experiencing the truth of our nature.

      Being out of a body is not automatic freedom. Ron did not know this because Ron was not a liberated sage.

      He misled us via his own lack of understanding, enforced by our own lack of understanding.

      Being in or out of a body does not bestow wisdom and freedom. This is false knowledge; wrong knowledge.

      We have a great opportunity in these bodies.

      In AA they say doing a geographical, thinking that our condition will change by being somewhere else, is a delusional denial of confronting and seeing directly why we are in this condition.

      Exteriorization was not the goal of Buddha. Freedom was. Wether in or out of a body, the sage is supremely free. Not because of changing locations. But by learning our lessons and understanding. The answers lie within. Not flitting to and fro around the cosmos.

      • Path of Buddha

        Hi Brian,
        Excellent points.
        A few weeks ago during meditation, the idea of the body as produced by karma arose. The Buddha says that the characteristics of the body are karma. Hubbard’s statements appeared in a whole new light. How could he exteriorize and go into higher research? In essence, he avoids the problem of karma with his notion of exteriorization. According to Buddha’s teaching, it is possible to “as is” the body which is a term Hubbard adopted at one time.
        However, Hubbard makes the body an object in the act of exteriorization. Thus it is a mental activity where he is trapped. Proof of this is that he needs “higher research” into his unknown. In the end, he could not pick apart consciousness, feelings, name and form, impulses, tendencies or inclinations produced by karma.
        I think that is why he juiced up the e-meter with the battery. He needed more electricity to solve his problem.

        • Good day my friend,

          I agree, Ron did not acknowledge Karma in the understanding I’ve learned from every sage.
          The acknowledgment and understanding of Karma is a recognition of a law greater than the ego. Greater than personal desires.

          Karma is the essence of Dharma; cosmic duty and purpose. Karma is the great teacher of souls. Ron’s technique for liberation was neutralizing chains of suffering by remembering a basic through his processes that were an admixture of real mental health and delusional memory.

          Every now and again my mind intuits the damage caused by always blaming the body for our condition. Ron’s teeth, Ron’s health, Scientologists smoking like a chimney, is evidence of a philosophy of ignorant regarding the body. Oh, it’s just a MEST body is the view.

          Instead of the body being a place where we learn, a place of great opportunity, the body is relegated to the status of a spiritual tumor. Something to hold in condescending distain.

          Ron just did not know. He was trapped in the process of going into the past to resolve suffering. He then assigned absolute truth to needle reactions as they responded to samskaras (Sanskrit for mental impressions and latent tendencies, created by past actions) filtered through his Sci Fi imagination.

          Warm Regards to you George!
          Brian

          • Path of Buddha

            Hi Brian!
            Good day to you my friend!

            I feel great karma from your words. In fact, I read them as if gliding through the air. You express youself so well and make great points.
            My wife and I are having a love affair with Pali. It is such a joy to study the language. Someday we will leave it all behind with the raft leading to the farther shore.
            Much Metta,
            George

            • Ha ha ha!!! Such a blessing to be on the journey with your spouse! My wife and I read a little spiritual knowledge in the morning then pray for others then meditate together. It’s my favorite time of the day.

              After a nice meditation I hug her and thank her for being my wife and friend. So grateful!!!

              Warm Regards Always,
              Brian

      • According to my understanding, the goal of Buddha was the attainment of Nirvana. In Nirvana one is not looking through the filter of beingness. Beingness is continually being created and dissolved.

        Beingness is still there whether one is in or out of the body. What is important is not getting fixated on the beingness. One is not considering self at all.

        A person who is trying to exteriorize is fixated on beingness.
        .

    • Apparently, upon ‘kicking the bucket’, I’ll have my work cut out for me “evading capture”, if the following information which someone sent me is to be believed:

      “Well, you’re ignoring a large part of what Hubbard said about the nature of the solar system…When you shuffle off this mortal coil, you, as a disembodied thetan, are then captured by either the Fourth Invader Force, which operates implanting stations on Mars, or the Fifth Invader Force, which operates stations on Venus. (Or maybe it’s the other way around.)…You are then implanted with false memories before you’re dumped back on Earth to find a new body, and you have to start all over again…That was the point of becoming an “operating thetan.” Only then could you be cause over MEST while fully exteriorized, so that you could resist the evil psychs and the invader forces and hold on to your memories and identity lifetime to lifetime, without having to start over again when you got a new meat-body…Only true operating thetans can achieve that ability to fend off the between-life implanting. And that’s what Scientology is all about, getting to that state. Anything short of it is a failure.”

      • Eamonn Gosney: “That was the point of becoming an ‘operating thetan.’ Only then could you be cause over MEST while fully exteriorized, so that you could resist the evil psychs and the invader forces and hold on to your memories and identity lifetime to lifetime, without having to start over again when you got a new meat-body…”

        This could be a mythical way of stating that exteriorizing and becoming an operating thetan has the meaning, as in Eastern traditions, of ceasing identification with the body and the rest of the dream.

        • Path of Buddha

          Hi Marildi!

          “This could be a mythical way of stating that exteriorizing and becoming an operating thetan has the meaning, as in Eastern traditions, of ceasing identification with the body and the rest of the dream.”

          In the Pali Canon of Theravada Buddhism, there is a sharp dividing line between belief in self and belief in no-self (anattta). I only know Theravada so I cannot comment on other traditions. This dividing line is so sharp that it separates the higher realms from the lower ones. If a personality lives a great life with no moral transgressions but does not achieve nirvana, there are realms of god-like beings to which they can enter. These are not thetans because they have at least some idea of anatta (no self). With heavy belief in self, ego or personality, beings are randomly tossed into the lower realms.
          These lower realms do not contain body thetans as in Scientology. There is a burning which purifies the being and then he/she can return to the upper realms. The higher gods are impermanent and can fall into human status, achieve nirvana, or drop to the lower realms. Most of these gods radiate an energy and have either formed bodies or formless bodies. Some god-like realms specialize in parties and the fun can be quite intense. Rather than say these are thetans, it is proper to say in Theravada that they have not pulled out the root of ignorance. There really is no dream like state in Theravada. In the higher knowledge, life is actually a prison.
          All of these beings in the lower realms and upper realms are in Samsara or the endless cycle of rebirth. This rebirth in not a transmigration of the soul as in Scientology. Thus the thetan does not get a chance to decide by exteriorizing. The actual process is a specialized form of Karma which is in tune with the underlying physical cycle of the universe. Achieving nirvana with a body is indeed possible and many have done it. It is only a resting point. Most saints can hold off sensations for around a maximum of seven days at a time. At body death, there is no exteriorization. You either break the chain or you do not. If you break the chain, you do not go to heaven. Rather Light of Asia, the famous poem has this:
          Om, Amitaya! measure not with words
          The immeasurable, nor sink the plumb of thought
          Into the Fathomless! Who asks doth err,
          Who answers errs, say naught!

          GMW

          • Hi, George!

            I enjoyed your knowledgeable comments about Buddhism, as usual. Interesting that the Buddhist beliefs also come across like a myth. But I suppose the poem you quoted applies – the immeasurable cannot be measured with words.

            I had a thought about what you wrote here: “In the Pali Canon of Theravada Buddhism, there is a sharp dividing line between belief in self and belief in no-self (anattta).”

            That view could be considered dualistic, couldn’t it? I myself have the idea that there is a soul but that it isn’t permanent, as that would make the most sense.

            • Path of Buddha

              Hi Marildi!
              Great observation about the dualism in anatta. First know that the sharp “dividing line words” are mine and mine alone. It is simply a way to express the importance. I have read the texts over and over. I see the dividing line only in my mind and it helps to organize the texts.
              The best way to describe the dualism in self/no-self is to consider it as an
              inflection point. When looking at the self, the common person takes it as personality. Hollywood pays a lot for charisma. This personality is seen as essence. On the other hand, a sage would look at nothing or a void when looking at personality. To the common person anatta is a meaningless term. To the sage, it has two meanings. First, the sage understands the common person’s viewpoint. Secondly, the sage sees the origin of personality which rests on multiple dependent causes.
              The great thing about the idea of soul in Theravada is that the soul is considered nearly permanent but not permanent. Brahma lives so long that the number is astronomical in years. But he fades. I have a Southern Baptist friend and I introduced this idea to him in regard to the impermanent Christian God. He rejects it but he cannot refute it!

              • George (Path of Buddha): “When looking at the self, the common person takes it as personality. Hollywood pays a lot for charisma. This personality is seen as essence. On the other hand, a sage would look at nothing or a void when looking at personality.”

                Yes, that’s what I’ve seen in most discussions – very different ideas of the meaning of “self.”

                “The great thing about the idea of soul in Theravada is that the soul is considered nearly permanent but not permanent.”

                That’s the best definition I’ve come across. It “computes.”🙂

                “Brahma lives so long that the number is astronomical in years. But he fades. I have a Southern Baptist friend and I introduced this idea to him in regard to the impermanent Christian God. He rejects it but he cannot refute it!”

                Some Christians (in mystical Christianity, I think) consider God and existence to be one and the same, and in that sense I believe God would be permanent. This makes sense to me too.

                “To the common person anatta is a meaningless term. To the sage, it has two meanings. First, the sage understands the common person’s viewpoint. Secondly, the sage sees the origin of personality which rests on multiple dependent causes.”

                Can you describe what those multiple causes are?

                • Path of Buddha

                  Hi Marildi!
                  “Can you describe what those multiple causes are?”
                  This is the single most difficult question in Theravada Buddhism. Even the Buddha said that the issue is deep. The old line among teachers is that if you think you understand it, you do not.
                  With that said, all I can do is outline the basic elements. I can easily say that it is name and form, feelings, consciousness, mental activities and mental objects. This plus craving is Personality. But this would just be words. The problem is that there is a subtle level of consciousness coming from another source which is Samsara and ignorance. When you add in the almost endless chain or karma ( cause and effect), you get causes dependent upon one another. In Theravada, unlike Scientology, it is not necessary to go into past lives. In fact, it is almost futile. The idea is to get into the present. This is the best I can do. Scholars descibe understanding personality as follows: You are sitting in the rear of a large ship. You cannot see the bow-wave. That is the trick.
                  GMW

                  • Good explanation, George. I understood it in a general way and took a win on that. Thanks!

                    Quoting one thing you wrote: “In Theravada, unlike Scientology, it is not necessary to go into past lives. In fact, it is almost futile. The idea is to get into the present.”

                    Ironically, I found a reference for someone just earlier today that is similar to the above. It’s from a PDC lecture:

                    “But as far as the past is concerned, it has no more validity than the future. All that exists of the past is what is in the present. And if it’s not in the present, so what? You say, ‘Well, it might come into the present.’ No it won’t. No it won’t, not if you’ve got the present straightened out. If you have a continuous state of beingness in this present, which is rising and getting better and his cognition is better and better and better, you’re turning on his knowingness. And if you turn on his knowingness in the present, his knowingness about the past will increase markedly.” (from “Description Processing,” 28.07.54, Phoenix Lectures)

                    Another relevant quote from a different Phoenix lecture:

                    “In other words, all knowingness is inherent in the static itself. A thetan who is in good shape knows everything there is to know. He knows past, present and future; he knows everything. This doesn’t mean he knows data. This merely means that he can as-is anything. And if he can as-is anything, believe me, he can understand it.

                    “Man’s salvation, I have said several times, depends upon his recognition of his brotherhood with the universe…” (from “Axioms Part II” 20.08.54 Phoenix Lectures)

                    Not to say that the above is what Scientologists came to understand.

                    You also wrote: “The old line among teachers is that if you think you understand it, you do not.”

                    A quote popularly attributed to quantum physicist Richard Feynman is: “If you think you understand quantum mechanics, then you don’t.”

                    Buddhism keeps reminding me of quantum physics.🙂

                    • Path of Buddha

                      Enjoyed reading all of your references. Two years ago, I would not even venture to read the LRH Scientology stuff. I remember most of the words from the PDC tapes and the Phoenix lectures. LRH’s words no longer bother me; I can read them with grace and style.
                      I remember the one about the past, future and present extremely well. I listened to the PDC tapes over 50 times.
                      To be sure, there are elements of quantum physics in Buddhism.
                      GMW

                    • GMW: “LRH’s words no longer bother me; I can read them with grace and style.”

                      Good for you, George. I kind of got that idea from your recent posts. My views have changed too since our previous debates.😉

            • Path of Buddha

              Hi Marildi,
              There are extensive myths in the Pali Canon. I could go on for hours having read a large percentage of the texts. We are not required to believe a single word of a myth or a single line of text. Even in my own mind, there are problems with some of them. There is a debate in regard to how selected texts are to be interpreted. There are, for example, visions of hell, displays of super-powers, extensive battles, levitation and so forth. .
              The Buddha said to avoid any sort of speculation. He said just to stick to the breathing.

              • Path of Buddha: “The Buddha said to avoid any sort of speculation. He said just to stick to the breathing.”

                That reminds me of the viewpoint of some physicists regarding quantum physics: “Shut up and calculate.” The Buddha would say “Shut up and breathe.”🙂

                He may have been the original instrumentalist, supposedly a “modern” school of thought:

                “Instrumentalism is one of a multitude of modern schools of thought created by scientists and philosophers throughout the 20th century. The name refers to the fundamental instrumentalist premise that theories are tools in the logical form of means-end relation, rather than true descriptions of nature itself.” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instrumentalism

                • Path of Buddha

                  Marildi,
                  After reading the link, I cannot choose between Dewey or Popper.

                  There are two points about the Buddha’s research which are mentioned by scholars:
                  1. In Theravada Buddhism, the mind extends from the top of the head to the bottom of the heart. The mind was considered the origin of thought; the heart was considered to have input. Thus the science was broadened into feeling.
                  2. It is well known that the Buddha at first dead-ended in the formless realms of infinite space and infinite consciousness. He dropped into equanimity and found enlightenment from that path. Maybe this was the first “instrumentalism”.

                  GMW

                  • George, you should write a book about the Buddha. You have so much interesting info.

                    “1. In Theravada Buddhism, the mind extends from the top of the head to the bottom of the heart. The mind was considered the origin of thought; the heart was considered to have input. Thus the science was broadened into feeling.”

                    I wonder what the Buddha would think of what science is now discovering about the heart. You may already be familiar with this data, but here’s a short video about it:

                    • Path of Buddha

                      Hi Marildi!
                      I started a book about the Buddha with a monk in our local monastery. It has been in progress for a few months. We have an outline and a few ideas. I had 10 years of experience on the front lines greeting public. This is delicate work.
                      Great video. He is right on where they were 2,600 years ago. They knew that the heart played a major role. He is something else that is recorded. About 3,000 years ago, some of the best sages with the keenest eyesight went to the top of some of the highest mountains in India. They spent years recording movement of the planets and sending the data back to the scholars. It was common knowledge that the earth revolved around the sun. The Middle Ages darkened intellect to such an extent that the data was lost. They also knew about the heart and its true role.
                      It does not surprise me that some few with great minds could be quantum.

                      GMW

                    • Wow, that’s awesome about the book being in progress! I think it will be great, and I would imagine you’ll have a wide audience for such a topic. It seems to me that many people would be interested in a book about the Buddha’s life.

                      The other stories that you know, such as the one above about the ancient sages who studied the movement of planets, or knew technical data about the heart long before modern science came up with it – many of these could probably be tied in and made relevant to the Buddha and would be of high interest too.

                      Keep us posted.🙂

                    • christianscientology

                      This is a question for George (Path of Buddha)

                      Hi George I attend a Buddhist group here in England and the lady who seem to be most committed sent me this in an e-mail
                      http://www.cittaviveka.org/files/articles/Transcribed%20Talks/aj_sucitto%20-%20realisation.pdf

                      I am trying to relate the term CITTA to Scientology and have looked at it on Wikipedia but I wondered if you could put it into context as someone who has studied Scientology.

                      Kind regards
                      Pip

                    • I just had two fistblows right in me smacker, broke a tooth.

                      So whats up with you ?

                    • Ouch – that must have hurt

                      Thanks for sharing.🙂

                    • Yo Miraldi, thank you. It’s hard to loose something but it’s easy to know you are blessed with a lot.

                    • Nicely said, Cat. I say good for you.🙂

          • In my experience, the doctrine and belief in self and no self is just that. A doctrine and a belief.
            Doctrines and beliefs do not change the truth. They attempt to comprehend it, using words on pages from the experience of sages.

            So in that regard whether it’s the Buddhist Annata, or the Yogic Atman, truth in unaltered.

            These are simply attempts at comprehension using different theories to explain an unmoving essence which remains the same always.

            These seeming differing views are simply differing theories looking at the same truth. Different practices and customs achieving the same bliss. And in some cases actual misunderstanding or wrong knowledge being represented.

            How can Jesus, Rumi, Ramakrishna, Vivekananda, Emerson, Thoreau, Gandhi, Martin Luther King, Yogananda, the Bhagavad Gita, Bible, Vedas, Patanjali, Visistha, Mahavatar Babaji, Mahavir, Mira Bai, Aristotle, Plato, Saint Francis, Saint Theresa of Avila and me be wrong in asserting the existence of the Self.

            To say there is no self and there is no God, is to make every sage that has expressed the truth of these things to be wrong and Buddha the only sage to ever experience the truth directly.

            What I have learned is that the word nirvana, a Sanskrit term for “a blowing out”, is the blowing out and neutralization of ego; selfishness and body identification. When Lord Buddha experienced enlightenment someone was there to experience it. Otherwise no one would have come back from that supreme state to report on it.

            Why seek bliss if no is there to experience it.

            So my understanding now is that centuries can fog up scriptures. It is all just an attempt at comprehending that which is unaffected by theories, beliefs, scriptural injunctions.

            There is a state called nirvakalpa samadhi. In this state, the sentient being (soul) experiences nirvana (the blissful formless state) while at the same time being embodied.

            Nirvana then is the extinguishing of ego. To say “I” experience formless bliss and deny that this sentence has a subject, is to miss the meaning of this sentence all together.

            There is only a difference in approach, ideology, custom, procedure. It’s a procedural difference only.

            The other alternative is Lord Buddha is the only sentient being to discover the “real” truth. Buddha is not that arrogant.

            It is only we, students, that have these arguments. The Medicine Wheel of the Native Americans all see the same hub, central point, from different locations on the outer wheel.

            Self/no self? Just words.

            • Beautifully written, IMO! I had an experience about 35 years ago that has stayed with me, yet I am just now fully understanding the significance of it.

              My husband + I had both completed our military commitments & were excited to move on in our journey through life, as we were expecting our first child in 5 months.

              Our daughter passed away at 3 months from SIDS & we vowed to overcome the odds together (approximately 75-90% of couples split after a tragic loss like ours). The night before her funeral, he wanted to read a chapter from the Bible. I was astounded, having been raised Presbyterian, we were read “to” not from & said “I don’t know how”! I still see the smile on his face as he says “just open the book & read, silly”!

              A year later we were pregnant again. For 7-8 months my husband sought out different faiths & they would come to our home each week to explain their theology (Mormon’s, 7th Day Adventists, Jehovah’s Witness, Baptist, etc.). A very strange thing to do in our early 20’s, now that I look back!

              Our daughter was born healthy & we felt all would be OK! My husband was killed on a motorcycle 7 DAYS after her birth, hit by a drunk driver. Life was turned upside down for me, but I threw myself into raising my daughter alone.

              It wasn’t until years later, when she was grown & starting a family of her own that I had time to reflect on those months of searching different faiths.

              I finally realized that it wasn’t them teaching US, but my husband was teaching THEM. He knew the Bible front to back, had studied Buddhism overseas & had read about many different faiths … I never thought anything of it, because it’s “who” he was!

              I don’t claim that he KNEW more than any other, but he was at a level of self-realization that took me decades to understand! With all of this said, his consistent saying was “everyone has a true & unique faith inside them. Most are not willing to look deeply within & seek to follow the “faith” of others, since it is an easier path”.

              Sorry if this was off topic, I have thoroughly enjoyed reading the different perspectives of everyone & thank Mark for posting it!

              • Dear Kathi – I also lost a loved one to a motorcycle accident. I gasped when I read of your husbands accident. It brought to mind the memory of that wonderful young man I knew. Your words touch and inspire me. Thank you, Richard

              • Thank you Kathi, for sharing your story. Your x sounds like a great guy. A special guy. You are a strong person. Thank you

            • Path of Buddha

              Hi Brian,
              The Buddha was silent when asked about the existence of a soul or self or spirit. He did this for a reason. Actually, the doctrine of no-self is a working construct to get one up the path. The Buddha also stated that speculation about the existence of a soul was to be avoided. He also said that this issue would come up to the sage in the final stages.
              Nirvana in Theravada is a “blowing out” It is the “fire or the flame going out”.
              I personallly have no problem with Hindu, Christian, Tibetan, or any of hundreds of definitions of self or soul. I do not think that the Buddha would be arrogant on this issue. This is why Mahayana Buddhists call Theravada the smaller path. It is because Mahayana was formed later and added in a less personal salvation. I have no problem with any of it and respect all religions.
              We are fundamentalists in Theravada and work with the Canon. The Buddha refuted a lot of teachers in the early days because his doctrine was struggling to survive in an India filled with Brahmins or a priestly class.
              Btw, I love St Francis and find no issue with him. There are many paths.
              Much Metta,
              GMW

              • Hey George, great reply! Yeah, I learned that Buddha had to incarnate to set India straight. That’s what I learned from Yogananda. He said that the priestly class were much too hung up on ritual. Buddha came to bring it back to basics. Lead a good life. Meditate. Many animal sacrifices stopped after Budhha’s advent.

                Then I’ve read that When Buddhism was in its descent of power in India, the intellectual class, the Buddhist elite were interpreting nirvana being an extinguishing of self existence. it was a form of Nihilism. Around the early 700s, Shankara was incarnated to preach in the positive:Sat-Chid-Ananda. Shankara is the original swami monk. He started the swami order.
                The ultimate state, instead of being defined in the negative, a blowing out. It was defined in the positive, Sat(ever existing) Chid(ever counscious of the existence) Ananda (that awareness of existence is blissful and full of joy)

                And I think where we are now is we are seeing the unity in these seeming polarized doctrines. I love Buddha! He is my friend. Nothing says melting in mediation like Annata.:-)

                Hugs,
                Brian

                • Path of Buddha

                  Hi Brian!
                  I was pondering what you said above. I think that what gets overlooked is the issue of location. Buddha used the fire simile to also show that one could not define the direction that an arahant(saint) went after the fire went out. It is like a quantum question. The fire goes out and where does it go? Is it north east south or west? Of, course the Buddha replied by analogy. It goes nowhere because fire is conditioned.
                  Much warm metta,
                  George

            • regarding self/no self – nirvakalpa samadhi ( samadhi, Hinduism, Buddhism – the highest state in meditation, in which a person experiences oneness with the universe. Dictionary.com)

              That state could possibly be described in English as total no importance of self. Along with that would be a total acceptance of what is.

              A bomb with a fuse flies in the window. I watch with amusement waiting for it to go off.

              A cosmic ray burst hits the earth and all is gone. That’s a natural occurrence. All is well.

              I consider warfare and strife. That’s a part of human spiritual evolution. I contribute as best I can.

              • Hi Richard.
                Good to hear that you are at peace. I, too, often observe the randomity around without judgement. Allowing the universe to be.

                How are you with action, effort, purpose. We have heard the story of falling off the cliff, and admiring the rare flower just before the last branch breaks. There is value in that. Just don’t let your readers confuse confront with numbness. One who is enjoying the bliss of so called ‘Tone 40’ can easily and quickly move into action, production. One who cannot, or says there is no need to, or ‘is above that’, is someone who is numb and far from the top.

                Complete serenity is static, unmoving, timeless. It really is a nice place to visit but I wouldn’t want to live there.
                Mark

                • MarkNR – Laughter! Once again my newness to blogging causes a misstatement of what I meant. That was a one time experience. I agree with you that no way, no how could I live in that state!

                  Brian’s reference just helped me clarify something that happened years ago. I’m sure millions of people on earth past and present have briefly touched on that state. Surely only a sublime Master could (possibly) come and go into that state.

                  There was no causation to my experience that I can think of other than I was at a point in life where I had no particular problems. I was alone in a house sitting on a couch. The epiphany, peak experience or whatever you want to call it came upon me and I observed it and sort of tested it as above. No sage am I! I’m just a student here. Hopefully my description will allow another to see possibilities. Thanks for your feedback, Mark
                  Richard

              • Richard.

                Thank you much for your thoughts. I see that I spoke too quickly to your post. There is a reason for this.
                For the last few years, I have been doing research on structured, methodical means of examining my past and positive processing. Much along the same line as Scientology. I took Mr. Hubbards advice to look for myself, but do not conform to the Church’s doctrine that Ron discovered everything and everything he said was correct.
                One thing that I discovered early in my Scn days was that effort is free and easy. This may sound like an oxymoron (self contradicting phrase) but no, it doesn’t have to be. I found that I could sling a body around and put my attention on things almost indefinitely and it didn’t hurt a bit. Doingness is easy and it is what we’re here for. Doing is required to produce any product and to produce anything worthwhile. Thinking, contemplating, or even clearing one’s mind may predate or even initiate doing, but it doesn’t produce a worthwhile product.. Feeling good has it’s value but it is a temporary state, actually a product of doing. Feeling good as a goal is actually a false purpose and has no value. It is as Sidney Portier said in the movie ‘To Sir with Love’, “It is like masturbation, it feels good but it doesn’t produce life”.
                I noticed long ago that a great deal of the population enjoy saying and hearing interesting things, but when put to the task of some doingness, they balk, or proceed at a slow pace with little intention of accomplishment. Those who could willingly and easily produce quantities of useful product are either revered as a powerhouse, or attacked as obsessed or. lately, as OCD.
                Now, don’t get me wrong. Thinking and contemplating has it’s real value. It often initiates doing, often brings realizations, often sorts out information. Meditation has it’s real value, when there is a goal in mind. Having a good understanding of some of the extant philosophy of life can produce a type of key-out and can even prompt changes in people’s lives.
                But the changes and pleasures are temporary and relatively minor. It is true that most people are pretty lazy. It is also true that nothing worthwhile was ever easy. Real long term gain is directly proportional to the amount of effort one is able to muster. You think looking for reasons, whys, patterns and trends in your past for a few thousand hours is work? Try staring into a mule’s or oxen’s ass for a couple of thousand years to produce enough food for your family.
                I have been involved with many isms and ologies and they all had some value, but they all fell short of any significant improvement. Learning wise things and some common phenomenon can help and can feel nice. But finding the real source of aberration requires looking and effort. And there is a lot to go over. But it is well worth the trouble.
                Some say that I am in danger of getting stuck in or obsessed with the past. It is not my only work. Also, I work always with the purpose of releasing myself from my past and being able to operate freely and effectively in the future. I’m doing well so far.
                Thanks, Mark.

                • Hi Mark – I just noticed your reply. I’ll respond more later. It might interest you to know that I read many of your comments on earlier 2014 topics here. After watching Going Clear I decided to reexamine my scn experience. I delved into Marty’s blog for weeks. The collective wisdom was vast and allowed me to have a sort of awakening. Still is – lol
                  Later, Richard

    • Very witty. I was on the floor!

    • What a concerned individual sent me:

      “Eamonn, I can understand where you are at…It might help assist you later if you study Scientology on your own now chronologically. Start with the original thesis and work your way all the way through all the books and lectures in chronological order. You will find amazing shifts in what you believe Scientology is. IE the shift from Dianetics principles to Scientology that happened between 1952 – 1953. This was a phenomenal change. Also in 57 you will find a complete shift in Ron’s views of what is the mind really…When studied chronologically Scientology takes on a different view as you are going through the Journey with Ron. I hope what I am saying is helpful because when you leave that body it would be good for you to know all the options you have.”

      • Hi Eamonn! – I understand why Scientologists believe Ron is doing OT research in an exteriorized state. I was active in the CoS when Ron’s passing was announced. As I recall, my feelings about it were “Oh well, he dropped his body and is doing something else.” Perhaps that was suppressing grief, but I don’t think so.

        Beliefs are allowed to be discarded or changed. Mine have changed dramatically and continue to do so.

        I recall some kind of directive in scn along the lines of “finding a safe place to hide” when “kick the bucket time” comes. That’s a pretty heavy trip to lay on someone!

        I wouldn’t bother going through all of LRH all over again. Accepting Scientology as a subjective belief system is difficult. It’s one among many.

        Best, Richard

        P.S. There could be endless philosophizing about this. IMO it just boils down to finding ones own path (or even realizing a path isn’t needed)

      • Eamonn, your “evading capture” line had me laughing for hours through out the day. The last time I was spending a lot of time around the highly enlightened, the word was to “lay low”, not go near the sky.

        There have been all sorts of scary boogey man theories presented, including being hunted and monitored by inner galactic space stations with net works of oppressors. These are interesting theories to explore and personally. Influences you find “out there” , should be what you understand them to be. Not what others tell you they are.

        There are parallel universes. If you are a criminal, you may imagine yourself to be a fugitive being chased. Ha! Ha! And you may find yourself in a parallel universe where that is the case. It is not “the whole universe”.

        I had a similar curiosity as you, wanting to understand what is “there” in these parallel universes.

        Some people are afraid of the dark, some are afraid of ghosts.

        I hope I can ease your mind with what I have found to be true.

        First of all, you need to know you can step in and out of these parallel universe right now. You do not have to wait until you die. It may be like learning to ride a bike or ski. Use some common sense. Your eyeballs are covered with lenses that cause color perception. Don’t expect to see colors if you are not looking through an eyeball O.K.? Your eardrums transmit sound. Plenty of deaf people to observe what to expect when you are not with that faculty.

        Blind and deaf people tend to have heightened perceptions in other regards, many, more spiritual perceptions. More attuned to “flows and intentions”. Your senses will shift also and you will find where you have given up something, you will grow in other ways. You really do not have to see it as a loss. Recall if you may, OTTRO. The first drill in Scientology, mock up being blind. How many people stepped into the spiritual universe from that one?

        Don’t expect to run if you do not have legs. Don’t expect to fly, if you do not have wings. Don’t expect to sing or recite poetry or talk your way out things if you do not have a mouth. You can practice other forms of communication now starting with animals, and work your way up to humans. Trust me, it will come to you. You will be working with a different set of tools, that is all.

        It is simply a different culture you will be entering. Like having a life in a body, you will have a life out of the body too. You will need to learn to be cause over things beyond taking out the trash. If you think it best to remain at cause.

        If you have a history of devotion, or loyalties pledged, you may find you are not alone right away, and you have “guards” or “supporters” or “guides” or “ancestors / tribe members”. You realize they have always been there anyway. If you have remained in favor with them through out your life, you will be in favor with them still, when you “move on”. It might be as lonely as you imagine it will be. And you do not have wait until you die, to start up familiarizing yourself with these forces.

        I think, nobody can “come back”, unless someone is thinking of you. They kind of “summon” you up. So, try thinking of someone that you might have lost, see if you can feel them. Getting a line in with someone you recognize or are familiar with, is a good way to start. They may already be in another life, but you will be able to perceive them.

        This universe, and all of the parallel universes, are a system. They all have laws. If you got along in this life, you will get along anywhere.

        ARC has a flip side. You close distance with people you love, but you also close distance with people you hate. It is not true that distance grows ever greater with the lack of ARC. If you have people in this life you were plagued by, best to work through it now. What you validate does grow, so if you can make any suppressors you had irrelevant now, it is for the best.

        It is best to enter the spirit world with the same good standards you had while living in this universe. Even try to better your behavior. Your manners. There are not a lot of objects out there to create distances.

        Your experiences in that parallel universe with revolve around who are, nothing more. As you are curious, I would say that is even as indicator that fear will not necessary for you.

        Don’t become naughty and bully as you make allegiances. Do not ask other spirits to do your bidding, there is a price to pay for that. There are parallel universes within that parallel universe. Stay humble. Do the usual. Have no fear, not like you are going to get hit by a car or shot with a bullet.. You just need to find your spiritual eyes and voice. There is light and dark and shadows and after a while, you will be able to see perfectly. Think of it as wearing sunglasses. Moving around just feels a little bit like you are “spilling”. You do not go un noticed like a ghost. The others can see you. And you will be able to see them. And music is something you will be able to perceive as a force.

        You can feel plagued with sleep deprivation, if you are used to “sleeping” and need to “check out”. You will find there is a way to rest, even without a blanky.

        It is best to consider “returning” to this world, after you have become comfortable “being there” in that parallel universe, and have had some wins.

        I have not ventured onto the negative side of things over there, because I do not think these things will be of concern to you. If you pass by something that looks disconcerting, keep moving forward. Do not interject yourself into dark dramas. Every being you meet meet will be a pathway into a parallel universe. Just like you do not want to drive down some streets, you do not want to travel through every universe.

        What can you do there as a purpose? It is best to have a purpose to carry you. You should work that out ahead of time. That will be your travel key. I have personally found purpose to be senior to goals.

        If you find yourself with some time on your hands, over there, I left an invite for you, waiting at the Hall of Valhalla.

        • Hall of Valhalla – from wiki – Valhalla (from old Norse Valholl “hall of the slain”) – Hall of the chosen dead
          (brief word search on my part, may not be totally correct)

        • Oracle, reading your piece triggered a ‘flashback’ memory to return from eons past. A being similar to you, and myself, had been residing in the spirit world for many an epoch. Over time I’d heard bits and pieces, tales here and there around the traps, told by travelers who had ventured beyond — to the body place; and these yarns would have me inquisitive, imagining the sheer adventure of it all and what it might be like to be part of such an excursion into the unknown. At some point, my path crossed with this story teller (the being similar to yourself), this spinner of memorable anecdotes of strange, weird and wacky escapades in far off and freaky places. The being shared with me, the many entertaining accounts he’d collected from venturings to Body Paradise, as he described it, the flesh domain that lay a-beckoning. Yes, I remember the body shillers now — they seemed to be perched at every corner, enticing the unwary to come on through and check out the offerings. I’m not exactly sure how it happened, but at some point I unwittingly stumbled through a wrong passageway, which ended up being ‘one-way only’, and it was pretty much like the chute onto a plane at an airport; with the craft all revved up and rearing to go. Of course, by that stage, there was no turning back and I was taking the trip whether I liked it or not. Well, I’ll be darned!

          • Great story, Eamonn. We were all darned – we landed in Scientology.

            I’m still learning about blogging etiquette. I think the way it works is if no one is addressed, then it’s an open comment. If I’m trolling here, Eamonn, sorry. I really did like your reply to Oracle.

          • Laughter! Happy trails my friend!

        • Hall of Valhalla – wiki – (from old Norse Valholl “hall of the slain”) – hall of the chosen dead
          ( this is from a brief search and might not be totally accurate)

        • Hi Oracle – ( note: I composed this before I read the latest comments. What a trip this is! – lol)

          The Nordic Hall of Valhalla would be an exceptionally impressive place to visit. Wiki shows a German Valhalla memorial.

          When I blew scn in LA during the Grand Exodus in the mid 1980s, many ex-scientologist discussion groups sprang up. My group listened to many channeling tapes. On one of the tapes a group of OTs was grilling an entity called “Dr. Peebles” about the reality of various scn tenets. He mentioned that he and some other entities would occasionally gather together and discuss how they could impart their wisdom to us earthlings. I assume they would generally gather in male or female groups, but I’m sure they would also have mixed gender social gatherings. That would quite an interesting Entity Cocktail Party to attend!

          Without digging into a thesaurus, I’m picking a word which is meant to be entirely neutral, neither belief nor disbelief in what you say, and that word is scenario. If you prefer a different term please say so. (smile)

          The Buddhist approach presents an appealing serenity. Your scenario is adventurous. In a sense they are different paths. What to do – What to do! laughter!!

          Above you say “You will find a way to rest, even without a blanky.” That had me laughing out loud. That was a very nice touch of yin! In other words – Don’t be so all knowing – guys. At least that’s the way I’ll take it – and remember it. laughter
          Richard

          P.S. Above George mentions that The Buddha said “Just stick to the breathing” LOL!

          • I decided to practice for life in the afterworld later. I wonder if beings in the afterworld project their alien body forms. That would be cool. Kind of like a Star Wars thing.

            • Some fun reading I have done along this line include Tom Brown Jr., which is American Indian exploration of the spiritual aspect of life and feats of mastery in the natural world. Two good books are “The Vision” and “The Quest”. The “Star People” series presents exploration into alien DNA in some humans, more activated in some than in others. Shirley MacLaine presents ideas about spiritualism and extraterrestrials.

              The answer about afterworld body forms would be that they are more interested in exchanging insight and would just adopt a presence. They probably have occasional ballroom costume parties where they appear in their alien body forms. Laughter!

            • You’ll have plenty of time later.🙂

  19. Thanks for the recommend on the book, just ordered it. The first link you shared, The Real Victims of Victimhood, was a great article. And I very much enjoyed reading the other articles Mr. Brooks wrote that are linked to it.

    There are people that work the “victim system”. While accepting help with the left hand, they harm attack and suppress their fellow man with the right. On the tax payers dime. There are organizations that do it, and there are people that do it too. Actually take hands outs so they can run around and suppress others.

    They do murky the systems established to help people who truly are in need and are worthy of helping. Who use the help to better their own conditions, and even pay it forward.

    I’ve come to realize complaining about it though, is a waste of energy. The truth is, and I am only speaking for myself and the way i see it, people are like water. Everyone finds their own level.

    Maybe at one time I would have seen this as “apathetic”. But if you do not have hidden or admitted standards about your fellow man, that they should “all be educated, or competent, or merciful, or compassionate, or generous, or forgiving, or fair, or valuable, or intelligent” or blah blah blah, ..
    it becomes alright with you to let them find their level and flow (or not) there. There are puddles too.

    It isn’t apathy, it is granting them the right to rise up or lay low. At the end of the day, I live in my life, they live in theirs. That is organic and natural justice. That is as fair as it gets. And this is something in this particular planet’s system, that I do not ever think will ever change. You get to live in the life you have made. That is your reward for living. So all complaints should be addressed to the architect.

    Then you understand, see, many people you might think are in a bad situation, or a bad condition, are so perfectly content in the life they have going, they can focus on complaining about lives other people live.

    That’s, ha, ha, when you get it. They have reached their level and they are content with where they are and who they are. And they may be demanding more from others than they could possibly ever perform themselves. But they are FINE with themselves, they just aren’t fine with others.
    .
    If you are good with yourself, the complaints do not disturb you. But can you be good with the other person’s life? Because many people prey on the fact that you can not be good with the level they flow at. And because of that, they demand your help, sympathy, and charity. They actually prey on the fact that you can not tolerate the life they have created.

    And if you can not, you can easily become indebted to “fix it”, “change it” or “provide” something better for them. Then, if you fail them, because the life they chose to live was intolerablr to you, and you so much as told them so, they will expect you to deliver them from it. And your failed efforts to do so, will bring complaints.

    Children are excluded from these dynamics. Children should always be helped.

    I have found it a lot easier not to protest or judge. I have become tolerant. Because the minute I object to someone’s else’s life, I assume a debt. And there are people out there that will bank on you to object, and through your own objections, they will manage to eek out an existence.

    The people running food banks, deeply object to other people, that can not put food on their table. And the people coming to the food banks, they want and need for people to object to them not having food, and provide.

    At one time we had five generations of a family on welfare because it was an eternal gift. We have people out here with decades on assistance.

    They want you to have a problem with their life. To try to fix it on some level.

    And I am not implying in any way, disregard for social responsibility. I am taxed 500.00 a month for health insurance now. I really don’t mind because I know needy people will be provided with care. I would not mind at all if my income taxes were increased 10%, if it meant a free education to everyone in this country. How we always have money for war, and none for education, is beyond me.

    I am just saying, at my age, and in a rear view mirror, I wish I had been more tolerant accepting of people, they way they are, how they choose to live, who they are, where they flow and the lives they fashion for themselves.

    I’m fine with it now. I don’t think I have any buttons left to be pushed on saving people, every man woman and child on this planet, or saving anyone, from them self. Or the lives they have created for themselves. Actually, that is invalidation.

    If you really, truly care about another human being, you should be able to applaud their most valuable effort, the life they have made for them self. These are all works of art. And you can find beauty and meaning in many lives and people that are easily, otherwise discounted. Without the need to alter is, what they have to show for living. Give them that. If you judge them or discount them for their life, they will feel obligated to move themselves into a “victim” column where they can be forgiven for the crime of creating their life. Truly, there is no shame in living. It is a right of passage.

  20. Excerpt from ACIM (A Course in Miracles) lesson 68:

    “Love holds no grievances.

    “You who were created by love like itself can hold no grievances and know your Self. To hold a grievance is to forget who you are. To hold a grievance is to see yourself as a body. To hold a grievance is to let the ego rule your mind and to condemn the body to death. Perhaps you do not yet fully realize just what holding grievances does to your mind. It seems to split you off from your Source and make you unlike Him. It makes you believe that He is like what you think you have become, for no one can conceive of his Creator as unlike himself.

    “Shut off from your Self, which remains aware of Its likeness to Its Creator, your Self seems to sleep, while the part of your mind that weaves illusions in its sleep appears to be awake. Can all this arise from holding grievances? Oh, yes! For he who holds grievances denies he was created by love, and his Creator has become fearful to him in his dream of hate. Who can dream of hatred and not fear God?”

    http://acim.org/Lessons/lesson.html?daily_lesson=68

    • christianscientology

      Hi Monte

      Thanks for that lesson from ACIM. It is so beautiful and so true. If only the CofS could hear what it is saying. There cannot be an organisation on earth that holds more grievances. The space needed to house all their Ethics files must be bigger than the space for P.C. folders.

      If they could only let go of their grievances I for one would return to the CofS tomorrow, and that one action would cause a dying church to resurrect.

      Thanks for nailing your colours to the mast!

      Love
      Pip

      • Pip – From your other comments I thought you were happy with Christianity. Why would you go back into CoS/Scientology? I can think of several good reasons (if it were reformed) but I’m curious about what yours would be.
        Richard

        • christianscientology

          Hi Richard

          No, in one sense I am not happy with Christianity, primarily because Christians don’t as a rule follow Jesus, they follow a religion about Jesus.

          It is my conviction that Jesus would be for Scientology but against the hypocrisy that has crept into the subject.

          The Bible has never been against understanding, “Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all your getting get understanding.” Proverbs 4:7 (amongst many) but always in the context of WISDOM which it declares “The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom….” Proverbs 9:10. In Scientology as practised in the Church the idea of “the fear of the Lord” is the biggest joke going (to put it mildly).

          On my last Com Ev I was asked if I had to choose between THE TECH and THE BIBLE which would I choose. That was my last official dealings with St. Hill.

          You ask what would take me back to St. Hill and the answer is to be invited back, but obviously that would involve my right to choose what I wanted to consider was my AUTHORITY. However I am not holding my breath while waiting for my personal invite!

          Love
          Pip

          • Hi Pip – Thanks for sharing, Pip. I now better understand your viewpoints. The fools actually insisted you make a choice!? Ugh. Talk about fundamentalism. I was single so I just walked away and never faced a “committee of evidence”. I can understand not “mixing practices” while getting audited, but after that dictating what people should think is nonsense.

            It might be that fundamentalist groups of all stripes are contracting while the rest of humanity moves on. The radical Muslims, even though getting a lot of attention, are alienating themselves from the rest of their community. For every new recruit they get or atrocity they commit, many more Muslims might take a look at religious fundamentalism. If I were attending a mosque and heard talk about our brothers in Isis, I would look for another mosque.

            Referring to what you said about Jesus and scn, other than fundamentalists, I doubt any priest or minister would have a problem with a parishioner practicing scn on a non authoritative basis.

            I’m sure I’m not totally duplicating you Pip, but that’s to be expected. Just on this blog post there are five or six approaches to life and living. It’s much more pleasant to find things to agree about than disagree.

            Love, Richard

            • Edit to add: “mixing practices” would be something like self hypnosis or some other mental procedure, not prayer or looking for inspiration in holy scripture.
              “look for another mosque” I don’t know how much group pressure exists in Muslim groups or if there are various Muslim sects which practice less fundamentalist or aggressive views in western countries.

            • christianscientology

              Thanks for your reply Richard

    • One time when I was in scn I engaged in a conversation with a Hare Krishna on the street. I think I was curious about his viewpoints and wanted to see what he thought about mine. He knew a bit about scn. At some point he simply replied “Philosophy without God is empty.” That stumped me. We wished each other well and went on our way.

      • Upon further reflection, I believe my intention was to test my newly found scn knowledge on an obvious cultist. “Let me see if I can get some sense into this guys head.” – laughter

      • The Hare Krishna were gifted with George Harrison to move them forward into society and deliver them safely.

        The Scientologists were gifted with Tom Cruise.

        Maybe he had a point.

  21. Oracle – Picking up on one point, $500/month, $6,000/ year is a bite out of the budget. However, my wife had gall bladder surgery, out patient, and the bill was nearly $30,000. Other countries have cradle to grave health care with excellent care, but those folks pay 40% plus in taxes. So it’s just math whether you’re ahead or behind financially in America.

    As regards this topic, it might be that people in those countries that go along with giving up such a great percentage of their income for the greater good would be more inclined to feel a sense of community or humanity. Politically speaking, they would be less us/them, left /right. As far as belief systems within a country, that would be a different matter

  22. Do you have a rollicking yarn in you; are you a budding storyteller with a creative flair for science fiction and fleets of the imagination? There is no entry fee to submit your story to the Writers of the Future contest. There is even a cash prize of up to $5,000 up for grabs. Winning stories are published in an annual anthology with distribution to bookstores across the globe. Over 700 novels have been published by past winners. To find out how to be in the running and discover the endless possibilities that exist for spinners of tales: http://www.writersofthefuture.com

  23. This might be the viewpoint of an enlightened atheist:

    All religions are divisive and us/them. They operate on fear of death. The hook is – if you don’t (fill in the blank), then (fill in the blank) will happen.

    Having a body is a way to experience drugs, sex and rock and roll. Where’s my Chuck Berry album?

  24. Do you have locked up ‘standing waves’ that are preventing your full recovery from injuries of long duration? A Nerve Assist could be just what you need to dissipate the un-flowing energy that is held in place and not going anywhere. To read up on the technique and steps to teach someone to perform this procedure on you:
    http://www.volunteerministers.org/sites/default/files/booklets/assists-en.pdf (5.96 MB)

  25. anarchicneutral

    I hope you can find it to forgive Ortega for what he did, even if he never admits that he regrets reposting that comment.

  26. Ethel Kennedy. Marty this is it ! Monique something something.

  27. Marty how are you ?

  28. Path of Buddha

    Hi Christianscientology!

    “This is a question for George (Path of Buddha)
    Hi George I attend a Buddhist group here in England and the lady who seem to be most committed sent me this in an e-mail,”

    The meaning of CITTA as related to Scientology.

    Hi Pip!

    From the Pali Text Society Dictionary:
    citta – The heart, the center and focus of man’s emotional nature as well as that intellectual element which adheres in thought.
    It may therefore be rendered by intention, impulse, design, mood, disposition, state of mind, reactions to impressions.

    Comment: It looks to me like the tone level is a good starting point. It could also suggest reactive thought. However, Citta is not the only term used in Buddhism in regard to thought. For example, the Pali word “Mano” can be translated as mind or rational, intellectual thought. This could be the analytical mind in Scientology. The somatic mind might be citta. The ayatanas in Buddhism function as links to the senses.

    From the Pali Text society:
    As regards the relation of manas to citta, it may be stated that citta is more substantial as heart, more elemental as the seat of emotion, whereas manas is the finer element, a subtler feeling or thinking as such.

    Comment: The above subtle traits or flows are separated in meditation.
    There are also specialized terms in Buddhism for attention, directed thought and applied thought. It is very detailed.

    I am a little removed from Scientology these days so I am sure others would also have input.

    I hope this helps.
    GMW

    • Path of Buddha

      “The meaning of CITTA as related to Scientology.”

      Hi Pip!
      I found some further information on this topic. In Scientology, there is the definition of Theta/Mest. This is theta the static with the potential for action or being. As I recall, theta is no wave length or a tiny wave length with a small amount of mass. MEST is matter, energy, space and time.
      The breakdown in Theravada Buddhism is different but contains citta as one of four elements.
      First, in Theravada Buddhism, citta is the generator of mind and mental attributes in the present life centered on emotions and the heart. It would thus include mano or analytical mind.
      Second, instead of the potential of theta, we have kamma which is the total of all moral or immoral actions produced in previous existences.
      The third is energy, motion, space, and natural law.
      The fourth is the element of nutritive essence which is of two types. First, food itself produced by nature. Secondly, the drive or will for existence.
      There is no being or potential for being in Theravada Buddhism as related to theta in Scientology. There is only becoming.

      I hope this further clarifies.
      GMW

    • christianscientology

      Thanks George for your thought on Citta, and the corresponding explanation from the Pali Text. It does seem there is no exact parallel in Scientology.

      I am reminded of the Biblical understanding of the “human heart” where it states “The heart is deceitful above all things” but goes on to say that our “hearts of stone can be changed to hearts of flesh”.

      Thanks again for your replies.

      Love
      Pip

      • I’d like to jump in here, if you don’t mind, on the question of citta. I am not the deep scholar that George is, of either scientology or buddhism, but I have some acquaintance with both, and maybe some experience that is relevant, since both scientology and budhism are all about experience.

        I read the transcript at the link you posted it it immedieaely rang a bell for me because what she was describing as “citta” was exactly my experience of my “major stable win” on OT-TR0, and my subsequent experiences of having my OT-TR0 “in”. However, “citta” seems to have several definitions in buddhiselevant.m, and not all of those applied to my experience, although I can see how the other usages could come about.

        There is a good concise exposition of citta here:
        http://buddhism.about.com/od/Buddhism-and-the-Mind/fl/Citta.htm
        It is fundamentally the ground or source of our volitions and intentions. It may be rightly called our center of subjective experience. It can be obscured or defiled by its contact with, and experiencing of, existence

        I believe given all this, it corresponds to “BP” as described in DMSMH. Also to what Georg Groddeck, slightly ahead of Freud’s time, called “the IT”. Or what some earlier schools called the “essence” of a person as different from his “personality”, which might correspond more to Hubbard’s “AP” as referred to in DMSMH.

        I would be curious to know if any others experienced theit own “major stable win” on that TR in the way that I did? Based on what I have read/heard, for me it was definitely a realization of, and at least partial liberation of, citta.

        Citta does refer to the old-school term “Heart”. It is not located in or at the physical heart organ, but more around the solar plexus area (stomach) is where I perceived it to be. Perhaps this dovetails with the old Greek beliefs: “Drawing on the words of his teacher Socrates, Plato considered the psyche to be the essence of a person, being that which decides how we behave. He considered this essence to be an incorporeal, eternal occupant of our being. Socrates says that even after death, the soul exists and is able to think. He believed that as bodies die, the soul is continually reborn in subsequent bodies and Plato believed this as well, however, he thought that only one part of the soul was immortal (logos). The Platonic soul consists of three parts:…” etc, from Wikipedia article on Soul.

        So this is apparently also what many have called the “soul” of a person. In any case it is the center and apparent source of emotions, intentions, and volitions.

        • Here is how Adyashanti describes the experience: “When you rest in quietness and your image of yourself fades, and your image of the world fades, and your ideas of others fade, what’s left? A brightness, a radiant emptiness that is simply what you are.”

          • Path of Buddha

            Hi Valkov,
            Thanks for the additional data. I don’t follow Adyashanti, but what he says is beautiful. He probably here is defining the radiant mind and the entrance to the three gates – impermanence, absence of emotional pain, and anatta or no soul.
            GMW

            • Valkov esnowl@juno.com

              As nears I can discern, one of the definitions of “citta” in English is that “luminous mind” you mention, which is mentioned in the English translations of various Buddhist materials. Wikipedia talks about it here –
              https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citta

              It is citta which gets defiled by those defilements you mention. I think it is good you study Pali; but I do not share your belief that only Pali can express “he truth” of existence. Words are not the way. Experience is the way. Truth starts where the thinking mind that uses words cannot go. Words can point towards the moon, but are not the moon.

        • Path of Buddha

          Hi Valkov!
          I have a difficult time understanding how a major win on OT-TR0 could be related to citta. You might have had an inclination that you controlled it. But then there is no doer. I don’t want to get into endless definitions. However, citta is only one simple concept. Of more importance in Theravada is “kilesa” which are defined as defilements. These are the workhorses that interfere with the mind. These are things like sensual pleasure, feelings, and ignorance. However, you want to define the mind is up to you. They really did not even have that word 2,600 years ago. That is why I stick to Pali. It is a far better language than English for search.
          Much Metta,
          George

      • Hi Pip,

        I’ll chime in too on this subject of citta. I was curious, googled it and found a description of a couple meanings – which, to me, do seem to correspond to Scientology constructs of the different parts of the mind (although this isn’t Theravada Buddhism but other sects).

        According to an article I found, one meaning is ‘storehouse consciousness.'” I think this is the same idea as bank: “the mental image picture collection of the pc.” Here’s a quote on that from the article:

        “In some schools of Mahayana Buddhism, citta came to be associated with alaya vijnana, the ‘storehouse consciousness.’ This consciousness contains all the impressions of previous experiences, which become the seeds of karma.” http://buddhism.about.com/od/Buddhism-and-the-Mind/fl/Citta.htm

        Here’s another meaning of citta, according to the article: “In some schools of Tibetan Buddhism, citta is ‘ordinary mind,’ or the mind of dualistic, discriminating thinking. Its opposite is rigpa, or pure awareness.”

        The Scientology term for “ordinary mind” would be analytical mind: “that mind which combines perceptions of the immediate environment, of the past (via pictures) and estimations of the future into conclusions which are based upon the realities of situations.” (FOT)

        Per the second sentence in the above quote, the opposite of citta is “rigpa, or pure awareness, ” which would equate to thetan, I believe.

        One other quote from the article: “(Note that in other schools of Mahayana, ‘ordinary mind’ refers to the original mind before dualistic, discriminating thinking arises.)” I think this “original mind” would be theta.

        • Path of Buddha

          Hi Marildi,
          Great research on the subject of Mahayana Buddhism.
          Thanks for differentiating it from Theravada.

          If Hubbard had used the word Mahayana Buddhism instead of Original Buddhism in the Student Briefing, my thoughts would have been different on the Freewinds.
          MM,
          G

          • Hey there George,

            Apparently, it’s a controversial question as to which of the two branches of Buddhism is the “Original” – or perhaps both are original in their basics, but taught differently. Here’s a quote from an article about this:

            “It is believed by some scholars that Mahāyāna can trace its initial origins to one of the original and oldest branches of Buddhism. Mahāsāṃghika.” http://www.alanpeto.com/buddhism/understanding-mahayana-theravada/

            You wrote: “If Hubbard had used the word Mahayana Buddhism instead of Original Buddhism in the Student Briefing, my thoughts would have been different on the Freewinds.”

            Just for the sake of discussion, let’s assume for the moment Hubbard was convinced that the Buddhism he was familiar with was indeed “Original.” What would your thoughts have been there on the Freewinds when you did OT VIII?

            MM,
            M

  29. Path of Buddha

    Hi Marildi!
    “”GMW: “LRH’s words no longer bother me; I can read them with grace and style.””
    A friend of mine gave my wife a book by Ledi Sayadaw, a Burmese Buddhist monk who wrote in the early 1900’s. The first time I read it, the Pali was so dominant I missed a lot. I was having a hard time reading LRH at the time. There was like an anger which arose every time. But I persisted and defined a Pali term which is “mana-mannana” and it handled the anger at him in a flash. The term in English means “high imagination by conceit”. I melted away all of the anger towards the man. I was overcome with compassion for him. He was just trapped. I remember listening to him on tapes and he was so confident. His pictures were always so self centered. All of this melted away. I can read his words now with relative ease. I don’t even speculate about him in the lower realms.
    GMW

    • Good post, George. I’m happy for you.

      I had a win about LRH too. I don’t think his fundamental principles were wrong and I think his basic intention was good. But both he and Scientology went off the rails, and it seems to me that the missing factor had to do with the ego, defined as a more or less arbitrary and synthetic identity that most people operate on most of the time. There should at least have been an awareness of its existence – and its hidden power. It probably should have been given as much attention as the reactive mind.

      In the past, I got the idea from you that you thought LRH was trapped, personally and in his development of the tech, because of his belief in a soul/thetan. However, other paths, even some Buddhist sects, believe in a soul too, and it doesn’t seem to get in the way of walking a spiritual path in any case. Do I have that right? Or were there other fundamentals you think are false?

      • Path of Buddha

        Hi Marildi,
        You have a very good memory. The idea of the soul/ thetan is no longer as important to me when comparing it to anatta ( no self/soul). Thus I am less inclined to believe that Scientology’s faith in the soul is the primary fundamental error. This is supported by the fact that there are numerous references in Scientology about “cleared theta clears etc.” The one thing that you do find in Scientology is attachment even to the smallest particle. Hubbard always said that the thetan sits in a tiny, tiny bit of mass. This is llke the tiny houses we now see on the market. If I had to take a fresh look at it today, I would consider the attitudes towards the gods as primary. Scientology huffs and puffs and tries to get OT powers and a god-like state. They spend millions on auditing body thetans to get an ability to move an object or to think in other dimensions. These are simply mental acrobatics. The proof is that super-power was a dud. The same expectation was easily deduced when Miscavige put everyone on OT VII for 10-12 years. Solo Nots had limited application. It should be clear that Hubbard was looking in the wrong place. In Buddhism, the realm of the gods is actually overpopulated. There are too many gods in various realms. The issue of being a god is a non event. Scientology spins and dives chasing godhood and it is under their nose. In Buddhism, the state of godhood is boring and impermanent. In some cases it is nearly permanent. Brahma, the Christian god, might last twenty big bangs. A 1 with several thousand zeros. But in the end, the god is impermanent. Gods in Buddhism have a lot of fun. They radiate and dive. Some are small; others large. We even have Titans. They are in other realms. Hubbard talked about exteriorization. The Buddhist idea is name and form (Nama/Rupa). Nama is like the bending of the universe as described by Einstein. Rupa is the quality of molestation or change. Gods mainly thrive in the formless realms. The bodies are not material. Some bodies are needed others are not depending on location. I think Hubbard created the idea of the thetan as a mythological representation of a godlike state as exterior to MEST without being able, in the end, to describe what manifestations might arise as a result of altered physical laws. This is why the OT 8 narrative, in my humble opinion, ends with the anit-Christ and the illuminati. Hubbard made a comment which makes me ROFL. He said something about “Buddha was onto the space opera”. Hubbard read less than 1% of the Pali Canon that he talks about in his lectures. I carefully tracked this and found that he read about four suttas or short verses of about 100 lines. He never got anatta(no soul), dukkha(emotional pain) or anicca (impermanence). How could he with 400 lines? He thought that Ananada, Buddha’s attendant, was the primary person in the Dialogues. Ananada might be in 10% of them escourting the guest to the Buddha. He might be in a dozen serious dialogues. So Hubbard missed maybe 95%.
        GMW

        • GMW: “It should be clear that Hubbard was looking in the wrong place. In Buddhism, the realm of the gods is actually overpopulated. There are too many gods in various realms. The issue of being a god is a non event. Scientology spins and dives chasing godhood and it is under their nose. In Buddhism, the state of godhood is boring and impermanent.”

          I think you are right that the ultimate goal of Scientology could be expressed as achieving the state of godhood. Hubbard described life in terms of the 8 dynamics, which he stated were arbitrary divisions but nevertheless served as a way to describe this game of life that thetans are involved in. The thetan’s basic impulses were to survive on – and to BE – each of the dynamics until eventually he/she/it would BE the 8th, the God dynamic.

          So from a Buddhist perspective, yes, “Hubbard was looking in the wrong place,” but that was because Scientology and Buddhism have very different goals. The goal of Scientology was simply to play a better game – not to transcend the game of life.

          Also, I can understand why you would ROFL if Hubbard knew only a tiny fraction of Buddhist doctrine but talked as if he new a lot. However, knowledge of Buddhist doctrine and/or adherence to it isn’t necessarily a yardstick to measure the validity of his fundamentals – unless one is of the opinion that truth must only be measured against Buddhism. My guess is that the Buddha himself would not view it that way, however. Am I wrong right about that?

          • “unless one is of the opinion that truth must only be measured against Buddhism. My guess is that the Buddha himself would not view it that way, however. Am I wrong right about that?”

            The last thing I would ever do is to try to speak for the Buddha. I won’t go near that one. However, the Pali Canon is full of attacks on the Buddha’s teaching. He was nearly murdered twice. He was also framed by someone who said he fathered a child in the monastery. The leader of the Jains was especially on the attack. Many of the priestly class attacked him. Parents claimed that he was a cult leader taking away their rich sons. As a result, the Buddha debated and explained constantly. He stated even more strongly than Hubbard that his path was narrow, difficult to follow and truth. I will not put words in the Buddha’s mouth, but on this one you are closer to the wrong.
            MM,
            G

            • Great answer, George.

              And again I’ll say that your book on the Buddha will undoubtedly be very interesting! You may have found your calling. At least your earthly calling.🙂

              MM,
              M.

              • Path of Buddha

                Thanks, Marildi!
                One thing for sure, you did not have a “Culture of Complaint” 2,600 years ago. At the end of Buddha’s life, large scale war broke out. His entire native city was killed in a brutal attack. Estimates are that close to 50,000 died when they were forced into a river pursued by sword on horseback. The Buddha was silent. He would have been King. Crimes were punished with extreme forms of torture and death. This background, if it can be captured, would show a very different type of rugged individual. It is not surprising that some could meditate for seven days. I am working with the monk on some documents which have never been translated from Singhalese. This could also add to the book.

                • Hi George,

                  Wow, more fascinating data. Thanks for these “previews.” I see your book as a wonderful contribution to knowledge and insight.

                  MM,
                  M

            • Wow George – That’s fascinating information about the Buddha. In a Buddhism book I have and a Buddhism website I visit no mention is made of those events.

              Hubbard’s writings were attacked from the beginning, but the threat of physical persecution (jail) was from government agencies. I suppose some people also wanted to see him get snuffed. He picked up more than a few enemies along the way but kept at it.

              • Path of Buddha

                Hi Richard!
                The Buddhist Pali Canon is about 85,000 verses which is about four times
                the size of the Bible. Also, some of it is not translated into English. I’ve be collecting data for 40 years or more.
                Much Metta (loving-kindness)
                GMW

            • christianscientology

              Hi George

              I was interested to hear you say that the Buddha had said that his path was truth, which caused me to compare that with what Jesus said, I am the truth. If we presuppose that both these men are actual historical characters and they were both being sincere, what impression should we gain from these two statements?

              It has been suggested that Jesus by making such a pronouncement leaves us only three options, either he is MAD – BAD –OR GOD. What do you say?

              • Path of Buddha

                Hi Pip,
                Great discussion points!
                The impression I get is that Buddha often said that he only revealed the truth. Jesus actually said that he was truth. In Theravada we have seven former documented individuals who were Buddha. No Buddha ever called himself savior. Buddha Gotama, the current Buddha, called himself “the one who comes and goes” or “the developed one.” The impression I get is that the Christian God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit form a team which aids the soul. The Buddha said that only you, yourself could save yourself. We have ancient texts which refer to Brahma and a savior like Jesus working in concert to help people. I don’t recall a reference to the Holy Ghost. Buddhism has persisted for 2,600 years because it is not so much a religion as it is philosophy and science.
                The division of soul and spirit in the Bible is insightful. Truth in Buddhism is fourfold: on earth stress and emotional pain, thirsting will, the reality of cessation, a path that works. Buddha often said that he only taught about stress and its relief.
                In the history of western religion, soul and spirit always lead to rebirth. Christians seemed to break that tradition. Can you have one without the other?
                GMW

                • christianscientology

                  Hi George

                  I agree there are some great discussion points arising on this thread.

                  The difference between Buddhism and Christianity is that, as I understand it, The Buddha always took the attitude of inspect what I am saying for yourself and if it resonates with you follow it.

                  The teachings of Jesus start from a different position. We are being invited to believe what he says and then put it into practice, so what we get are certainty from application through faith, as opposed to understanding. This is such a fundamental difference it easily gets overlooked.

                  Every approach to addressing the condition that humanity finds itself in starts from consulting the mind and addresses the UNDERSTANDING. Unfortunately it quickly deteriorates into BELIEVING.

                  Ron Hubbard understood this when he said that mankind is basically lazy. If they are told a datum that they can align with what they already think, they will take it on board because it will not violate their ideas of critical thinking. However the next datum will be received less critically because the last one resonated with what they already believed. As time passes and the person receives more data from this source the less critical they become until the times comes when they become so sure of the truth of the source that their critical faculty “goes out the window”. They are now PROGRAMMED and will stay that way until life itself makes it abundantly clear that they have been led astray.

                  In Christianity it works the exact opposite way. Life has to become so horrendous that the person has to cry out “there must be another way”, because they have come to the end of their own resources. In terms of the “prodigal son” they have come to their senses (Luke 15:17). At this point they are prepared to believe God for salvation, and then they experience THE NEW LIFE IN CHRIST, they experience UNCONDITIONAL LOVE. So the goal that the whole world is seeking through UNDERSTANDING always remains tantalisingly just out of reach when what they really wanted was TO BE LOVED and TO LOVE.

                  For the Buddha to say “only you yourself could save yourself” is very profound. However it is when we stop attempting to save ourselves that we are saved, or as my old mum would say “man is his own worst enemy”. This idea that you can save yourself in some positive way is the equivalent of the Scientology datum of “man can pull himself up by his own boot straps”, that just is not so, you need a “skyhook”.

                  As I have said I attend a Buddhist group here in England every Thursday and recently a monk came to give us a talk and he spoke about “no meditation meditation” and afterwards I asked him if that would be like “just being there and doing nothing other than being there” and he enthusiastically agreed that would be a good definition of no meditation meditation.

                  The Lord works in mysterious ways His wonders to perform. This morning I was looking at my YouTube history and came upon this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1X9xd-4pga8 (the shorter version) or http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OZ8tQYYNIg0 (the 45 mins version).

                  I am sure it was not there before, I am wondering if there is not only “predictive text” but “predictive enlightenment”!

                  There is much mis-understanding about the difference between Spirit and Soul. The truth as I understand it is that the spirit does not incarnate only the soul does, so in terms of the soul there is REBIRTH but in terms of the spirit there is only RENEWAL. The spirit never enters M.E.S.T. only the soul does, so “can you have one without the other” Yes but you can also have both. It is a bit like “having your cake and eating it”.

                  Love with Understanding
                  Pip

                  • Path of Buddha

                    Hi Pip,
                    Very well said, very peaceful, very beautiful, very calm.
                    I love Jesus!
                    Is Rupert Spira a former Scientologist? He is very well spoken about awareness.
                    He combines many different views to get to his conclusion.
                    Thanks for the data on soul and spirit. Would you consider the “war in heaven”, when Lucifer rebelled, as a re-birth?
                    Much Metta (loving-kindness)
                    George

                    • christianscientology

                      Thanks for your kind words George. As far as I know Rupert Spira has no connection with Scientology although his concept of “The awareness of awareness” appears to be identical to what I learnt when in Scientology.

                      I don’t understand your question where you refer to “war in heaven”. I would be grateful if you could fill me in a bit from your viewpoint.

                      Love
                      Pip

                  • Pip – That’s an astute observation about “being lazy” and what follows. When I entered scn I thought why bother reading a bunch of books about religion and philosophy if elron had already done so and synthesized everything.

                    The division between spirit and soul is above my grade level – laughter

                    • christianscientology

                      Hello Richard

                      Unfortunately this letting an “AUTHORITY FIGURE” do your thinking for you is endemic in mankind and it all stems from the mistaken belief that we must SURVIVE at all costs, and the need to be RIGHT or as Ron himself says “How wrong can you be DEAD WRONG”.

                      As a soul you can die, that is why the Bible says “The soul that sins, it shall die” Ezekiel 18:20. The soul is another word for BEING – THETAN that is who you are in REALITY but in TRUTH you are more than that. You are that which CAN BE. You might say I AM BEING HUMAN, that is what the I AM is being, so the I AM precedes the being. The I AM is PERSONHOOD and personhood precedes BEING, in the same way that THETA precedes A THETAN.

                      The good news is that PERSONHOOD IS CAPABLE OF UNCONDITIONAL LOVE. Spirit and soul may well be above your grade level, but it is not above your common sense level.

                      There is a story told about a family who had a five year old son, and then a new baby girl comes along. The parents were concerned that since the boy had been the “apple of their eye” for the past five years they were watching him carefully to see he did no harm to the new baby. Shortly after the new baby’s arrival home, he went into her room and the mother heard him say to the baby “Tell me about God I’m beginning to forget”.

                      Love
                      Pip

  30. I decided to do a bit of reading in the Koran and a related book. Here is my two hour first impression:

    God knows everything about everything. God loves everyone who loves God. God destroys everyone else. Do be – don’t be instructions about everything (although dogmatic, some of these would be inner reflections)

    Here is something from a Taoism site I visit. In a Tao story about the “Wheelmaker”, the elder wheelmaker explains to the king how over time he was able to balance accuracy with production. The author of the site, Derik Lin, refers to “Slow down in order to get there faster.” – laughter http://www.taoism.net

    • I was surprised that the Koran was translated into easily readable English. No specialized terms I saw at first glance. Lots of instructions about how to do everything from eat, dress and even have sex. I think the idea of having women covered from head to toe is so men don’t have naughty thoughts.

      Along with the paperback Koran from my town library, the other book was a fundamentalist validation of some of the programming. Almost every page made reference to either the Holy Quran or God Almighty.

      Punjab Province in India recently passed a Women’s Protection Act to provide legal remedies from Islamic abuse. The fundamentalists are having a fit!

  31. “They are not hard to identify provided one retains some degree of objectivity. They offer no solutions or alternative vision. Instead, they capitalize on engendering ‘us vs. them’ mentality …”

    They method I’ve used to “ID” those troublesome people is to determine whether or not they are afraid of personal liberty and thus wish some groups’ permission to supplant what is, natively our human rights. It has NEVER failed me as an accurate barometer of a person’s sanity and level of potential criminality.

  32. culture of complaint

    culture of entitlement

    The only thing you can be upbraided for is no result.

  33. Independent Spirit

    To Marty and all of you here, I bring you a message of love and hope from trance medium Ivan Teller’s YouTube channel:
    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC3QuoqlYLakumu4bc0a9pOA/videos

  34. I am guilty. I am sorry Kathi

    I am so sorry for my arrogance.

    You did nod need my arrogance on this blog

  35. christianscientology

    As I understand it Ron came to the conclusion through Dianetic auditing that people had recall of past life incidents and from that realised that some part of a person transcends physical death, and thought he had discovered the soul/spirit of man.

    He never differentiated between SOUL and SPIRIT assuming that they were fundamentally the same thing, which of course they are not. Soul as he rightly realised was not in fact a pure static but did contain a small amount of MASS.

    In the Bible in chapter one of Genesis it says that “Man was made in the image and likeness of God” and we know from elsewhere “God is spirit”.

    In chapter two it says “Man became a living soul” here we see the first evidence of the difference between SPIRIT and SOUL. Further in Hebrew 4:12 we read “For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.”

    Right here is the basic outness in Scientology that it does not differentiate between SOUL and SPIRIT but this is to be expected for to do so it is necessary to KNOW God and that is not possible within the technology of Scientology. It is only possible if we are open enough to allow God to reveal Himself to us, and the only thing that can prevent that from happening is our egos.

    Love with understanding
    Pip

    • Path of Buddha

      Pip said:
      “Right here is the basic outness in Scientology that it does not differentiate between SOUL and SPIRIT but this is to be expected for to do so it is necessary to KNOW God and that is not possible within the technology of Scientology. It is only possible if we are open enough to allow God to reveal Himself to us, and the only thing that can prevent that from happening is our egos.”

      In my opinion, Hubbard tried to use theta as God, the spirit, and the thetan as soul.
      Thus his ego prevented the acceptance of God. Scientology goes in a circle in two ways

      1. Scientology starts with god(theta) and ends with god(thetan) but God is not an exterior notion to the physical universe beyond space and time. You never really transcend as Kant would say. This was Hubbard’s Western religion trap.
      2. Hubbard went in a circle in Eastern religion as well. He claimed to be the Buddha (anatta or no self) while strongly insisting that he was himself(Thelema). Thus he ends as the anti-Christ in OT 8 as well as imagining that he was the Buddha. He cannot get citta(Pali for heart) clear in his mind so he tries to “own” a little of both Jesus and Mara(Satan).

      In Theology, Hubbard was still the 6th grade student trying to figure out Lucifer’s war with God.

      GMW

      • christianscientology

        As LRH said back in the Dianetics days he wanted to approach the problem of the mind as would an engineer and so every word in the subject needed an exact definition.

        Since the word LOVE could not be exactly defined he removed it from the subject and replaced it with the word AFFINITY because that word could be defined.

        When he came across the idea of A STATIC he defined it with the mind-set of an engineer, and in doing so “sucked the life blood out of it”.

        My understanding is that Ron postulated the existence of A STATIC in the days of Dianetics when he was very much working with the human mind. I don’t think he every considered that God might have a Mind. Hence he completely mis-duplicated the work of Mary Baker Eddy and Christian Science. Something I have an intimate knowledge of since my father was brought up in Christian Science.

        • Path of Buddha

          Hi Pip,
          This is getting more interesting. When in New York City in 1972, my boss got me interested in Christian Science. I read Mary Baker Edy for a few years every day. “All is infinite mind”. “There is nothing but perfection.” etc. I have no doubt that God has a mind. How else could he operate?

          GMW

          • christianscientology

            Well George what a surprise! So you are conversant with the work of Mary Baker Eddy. “All is infinite mind” that should read “all is infinite Mind”. This is a common mistake that many make, in fact LRH makes a comment on Christian Science. He says ”The Christian Scientist thinks it is all mind, but I have news for them, we are here”. He says this on a tape so of course we cannot tell if he is referring to mind or Mind, but from the tone of his statement I rather think he thought the Christian Scientists think it is all mind.

            The joke is when they say “It is all Mind” what they are actually saying is IT’S ALL THETA, and then go and make the same mistake that Scientology makes by not distinguishing between THETA and A THETAN (SPIRIT and SOUL). In fact two of Mrs Eddy’s synonyms for God are SPIRIT, and SOUL. I often smile when I hear Christian Scientists declaring they are nothing to do with Scientology, while the Christians would denounce both of them as CULTS. The truth if properly understood is Christian Science and Scientology are in the same league and as Ron has said for two groups to be in ‘serious’ competition they must be similar.

            As you know I see myself as a ChristianScientologist but use that ‘Avatar’ to understand in the “fullest sense of the word” the writings of Mary Baker Eddy. Hence I am fully committed to my local Christian Science Society here in Portsmouth although I am not a member of the Church.

            What Mrs Eddy discovered some 150 years ago will, if brought into the 21st Century, bring about all those wonderful goals that we first got into Scientology to bring about. When mankind recognises that their basic essence is CONSCIOUSNESS and that they share that I AM-NESS with their creator this will bring about peace on earth.

            Love with understanding
            Pip

            P.S. Here is a video you may resonate with ttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sFfXvjFdpKg This gentleman Rupert Spira is my favourite teacher of the week. Incidentally he originally came from a Sufi background.

            • Path of Buddha

              Hi Pip,
              Discussing Christian Science brings back a lot of memories. Thanks for the information. You seem to be able to cut through Mary Baker Eddy.
              I liked Christian Science very much in the 1970’s because it was simple and reading from “Science and Health” every day was very peaceful. I never examined the theory because I was looking for the healing.

              Pip wrote:

              “When mankind recognises that their basic essence is CONSCIOUSNESS and that they share that I AM-NESS with their creator this will bring about peace on earth.”

              This is a great goal and the Buddha actually spoke of long periods with a creator God and a Jesus. Is your description of heaven out of the Bible?

              Much Metta (loving-kindness)
              GMW

              • christianscientology

                Hi George

                Thanks for your reply, yes I believe I can see deeper into what Mrs Eddy is saying than any of the Christian Scientists I have met, and I put that down to my time spend in studying and understanding Scientology.

                The first thing to understand is the concept of OVERVIEW https://vimeo.com/55073825

                This is essential to the understanding of science as opposed to just believing in science. All the scientist who were “original thinkers” were not satisfied just to observe phenomena, but asked themselves the question WHY before asking the question HOW. Perhaps this is why Jesus said “unless you become as a little child no way will you enter the kingdom of heaven”.

                Whether it be Newton seeing the apple fall – Archimedes overfilling his bath – Einstein riding a beam of light or Mary Baker Eddy being instantly healed, they all had the same thing in common. They were able to look at the phenomena from a detached point of view (to be exterior). As Jesus says “Be in the world, but not of the world”.

                This is why there is no point in getting up tight with Scientology or the Church of Scientology, ARC breaks bring about ARC breaks, or as Mrs Eddy would see it “just mortal mind fighting mortal mind”. The goal of Mrs Eddy was identical to the goal of LRH but they needed each other to attain their shared goal, hence:-

                LOVE ALONE IS INEFFECTUAL
                UNDERSTANDING ALONE IS DANGEROUS
                LOVE WITH UNDERSTANDING IS DIVINE

                I am well into this “New Science of Consciousness” http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jLt9Yy6FIvE
                and am off to hear Rupert Spira this Friday in London.

                I find the teachings of The Buddha and the teachings of Jesus perfectly compatible and that The Buddha was in dialogue with God and The Logos makes complete sense for God and the Logos were before anything was.

                My description of heaven is NOW, which is the reconciliation between God and Man, bring about the oneness of all things, and yes that is the heaven the bible is talking about, but not necessarily the heaven that Christians are believing in.

                Good to hear from you.

                Love with Understanding
                Pip

                • Path of Buddha

                  Hi Pip!
                  So he comes from a Sufi background. I knew Rupert Spira was special. My daughter had a friend who was Sufi. Her father got me interested so I reviewed the religion. I really liked it. It is sort of a mystical Buddhism, as I recall.
                  My Christian Science friends were not into the theory. They were heavy into the healing. They told stories every week about the power of Christian Science. I left Christian Science for Scientology in 1972.
                  Much Metta,
                  George

          • christianscientology

            Sorry George my secretary didn’t copy the full url! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sFfXvjFdpKg

  36. I very much appreciate the discussion of eastern religion and philosophy on this post, and its relationship or contrast to Scientology.

  37. Regardless of any religious scripture, I find it difficult to believe that God knows my every thought. There might be guidance from God or it might be intuition. Some might call it the Higher Self.

    My experience of the Presence Of The Holy Spirit is that it is neither male nor female. That type of experience happens only during a total suspension of ego, a total letting go or plea for help, salvation or whatever. It’s not an uncommon experience.

    Various scientific experiments or recorded occurrences, I’m not sure which, have shown that stimulating parts of the brain can cause the experience of a presence. That is used to refute people who claim alien abduction and so on. Instantaneous mental constructions also occur, usually in times of distress.

    It would seem there is not one single answer, and actually, so what! laughter – I think I just uncovered a lingering bit of scio-think for myself, that being “every process must have an EP”. laughter

    • I see I’m doing a bit (lol) of eval/inval here. Many would say they experience God, Jesus or the Holy Spirit without any particular causation. I recall a minister saying he experienced Jesus frequently.

      Also, a fellow on another blog said he practiced transcendental meditation for four years, had lived in an ashram and often experienced oneness with the universe. The idea of “Clear” intrigued him so he went into scn for 6 years. Go figure.

  38. Hi MarkNR – (I made a brief reply to you above) Hubbard started something which put thousands of people on a path of self discovery. I think it has to be acknowledged that hundreds of intelligent people with good intentions participated.

    This post is interesting to me since people are stating where their heads are at now. Many like yourself, Mark, have been on that path for years. That’s not at all the case for me, so I’m an armchair philosopher – lol

    I get what you’re saying above about “doingness” or the lack thereof. I had a biology professor who put the human race on a bell curve of biological chemical driven activity. Some people drive forward and cause change, some hold back and resist change, and most people are in the middle. Of course he was very opinionated and insisted that the only reason humans are smarter than apes is because we have a larger brain to body mass ratio. – Laughter

    Best, Richard

    • Hello Richard.
      Thanks for your thoughts.
      I have mentioned that among personal traits, those that I respect the most are honesty and then the ability to put forth effort.

      “The Greatest Guarantee of Success”.
      The greatest guarantee of success in life is not necessarily hard work. Although some have been successful on hard work alone, it is no guarantee. I have seen many hard working people who would not be considered successful by themselves or others.
      Intelligence is no guarantee of success, although some have become successful on intelligence alone. I have seen many very intelligent people working the most menial jobs, allowing their talents to go fallow.
      The closest thing to a guarantee of success that I have seen is THE ABILITY TO PUT FORTH LONG TERM EFFORT TOWARD A GOAL.

      This alone, can provide one with the best chance of success in any endeavor or area of life. Coupled with one of the other traits can provide an individual with a near guarantee. This has often been called drive, or hunger, or diligence. These words may be included but they have other definitions as well. Long term effort describes it more specifically.
      Mark

      • Hi Mark – Someone once said it’s not what you’re doing but how well you’re doing it. There is also that troubling detail about loving what you do – laughter
        I’m taking a sort of mental retreat for a while – listening instead of speaking. Talk to you later
        Richard

  39. I have a question for those who have been in Scientology. What does it teach about mercy, compassion for the oppressed and our duty as stewards of this earth to care for each other? Does fair exchange get in the way? As a person who was born to relative privilege, I recognize that my “head start” in life is not really “fair” compared to a Dalit born in a Bombay slum. I believe that those who are given much also have the responsibility to learn from and assist others who have fewer resources.

    • I have found a lot of people that got involved in Scientology were narcissistic. They were irrelevant, and Scientology made them relevant. They then ran it on others that they were irrelevant. It was a social issue.

      Then there were others that had a calling. And others that were students of social intercourse. And others that had hope for the world. And others looking for methods and answers. And others that were grifters looking for work and accommodations.

      So, each person’s reasons for getting involved revolved around their own purposes. Scientology “teaches” as much as people were willing to know, nothing more or less. Every person has an innate character and promise. You are not just “taught” everything and molded by it. You have your own inclinations.

      People are creatures of habit. Just recently a guy came on the scene all remorseful and seeking “redemption” , for outing Paulette Cooper by handing her diary (stolen) to her parent. He begged forgiveness. Once he became relevant in the theater, he then outed everyone he knew from the Guardian’s office. Suggested Marty was crazy on another forum , “I hope Marty comes to his senses”.” I mean, he just did the same thing to someone else. What did Scientology teach him about mercy and compassion? Nothing.

      Uh…I could go on another 50 paragraphs about Scientologists lacking in mercy and compassion. The thing is, if you do not feel these things when you are two years old, it isn’t going to happen. Not in Scientology and not in any other theater. Some people are numb, narcissistic. They are born that way, they live that way, they die that way.

      I think Hubbard got it wrong when he said goals were senior to purpose. He did focus on goals processing then he fell back on purpose processing.

      At the end of the day, you have to teach yourself in Scientology. These are called, “cognitions”. Some people taught themselves to hate, blame, harm attack and suppress. Some people learned to care and love. It is just a simple school.

      How many people went to math class and made it through like zombies to “fit in”? Math is only as valuable as it aligns with someone’s purpose to understand it. Scientology is only a subject. Math studies do not create personality, either does Scientology. People have their own minds and inclinations.

      But the technology in Scientology is very mathematical, there are patterns. It is all about patterns. It is all mathematical and it is all laid in patterns, except for the attitudes. And you are taught to have attitudes, but if you are smart enough about patterns, you can see what is attitude. And how the burden of attitude pulls down other values. If you are mathematical, you can weigh values and negatives. But it is on you, to work these puzzles.

      Words have impact. “Scientologist”, means a lot to some people. But, you take that tag off and what do you see? A criminal, a grifter, a parent, an employee, a mother, a father, a care giver… you see other things. If you strip away the “Scientologist” label, and all you find at the bottom of that is a bully, or a narcissist, a con man, I’m sorry. You have to take that “Scientologist” fixed idea off the top, and look at who else is there. If there is nobody else there, you have a situation on your hands. The same as a “Christian”.

      “Scientology teaches” assumes there is a blank slate. There is no blank slate. Not in spirits. These spirits have been around for thousands of years and Scientology was just a mere suggestion. For many, way too late.

      I started in Scientology as very unholy, and could not subscribe to any part of it that meant I had to humiliate or degrade other people. Others, found no problem with that. Some, anti Scientology in fact today, will run over you like a bulldozer and set you and your children up for a loss in any way they can. Either by outing you on the Internet, or placing themselves in a position of trust with your family and then pulling the rug out from under your feet.

      No, Scientology does not teach people to be kind. If you do not possess that as a personal character trait, you did not care to mock it up.

      • Behind all of that, there were and are people in the Scientology community that were good people and cared very much, about the person in front of them. These are the people I choose to remember. Others for whatever reasons (I respect) choose only to recall the bad. They have their reasons just like me. But we are not the same, or even similar. I

    • Hello Ann – Specific answers to your questions are addressed at mikerindersblog.org on the Feb.16, 2016 topic “Scientology: Human Rights Champions or Abusers”. Mike compares scn practices to the UDHR, Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

      An individual Scientologist might consider his or her contributions to scn as the best way to further humanitarian aims. Other Scientologists would give lip service to humanitarian aims but would just be interested in attaining super powers, the so called Operating Thetan levels. Some would consider they are doing both.

    • Ann – Wrong date. It’s February 15, 2016. Also listed in “Categories” as Human Rights

  40. Path of Buddha

    Hi Ann!
    I spent 17 years in Scientology from 1972-1989. The idea in Scientology is to “clear the planet.” The ultimate in compassion is to spread the doctrine of Hubbard’s technology about the mind and the spirit to as many as possible. Hearing and practicing the doctrine may lead to personal relief. When this technology is spread to others, the benefit may spread. The problem with the system is the high cost involved. As one travels up the bridge to OT8, the doctrine becomes more and more confused.
    Hubbard was not keen on the idea of “sympathy” for others. His idea was to place a strict discipline and control on the mind of the follower. In this way, some were able to achieve a better life. In the end, Hubbard defined himself in the role of Lucifer when he formed Scientology. As Lucifer, he did not accept weakness as a goal. The world was tough and only the strong survive. Hubbard claimed that he would return as the anti-Christ and Christianity would end on planet earth. Ideas of compassion such as Christianity were, in the end, only concepts implanted by those who sought control.
    Ideas like karma were not important to Hubbard. Low birth was random as he outlined in his book “History of Man”. The spirit or the thetan was all powerful. It merely needed his help to instantly transform. Engram is substituted for karma and thus the thetan has no ultimate moral responsibility. Thus you do not need compassion as as element of the universe.

    • Laughter! George, I am beginning to think getting two people to agree on Scientology is like, is like getting two people who just smoked a joint together, to agree on what happened. Laughter!

      I did not get this at all: ” Ideas like karma were not important to Hubbard.” I got that the entire overt / motivator cycles were ALL about karma. I never took this away during my time exploring: ” Engram is substituted for karma”. For me, engram was all about handling forces. Nothing to do with karma. You write, ” thetan has no ultimate moral responsibility”. I never learned that in Scientology, or even thought it before Scientology. Laughter!

      You write, ” Thus you do not need compassion as as element of the universe”. I thought the opposite. I was staggered at the compassion my auditors displayed, sitting and listening to my dribble hour, after hour, after hour. When I got involved people were very kind and friendly. Scientologists were not mean people. Accusing someone of being an S.P. was considered no responsibility. Laughter! There is a thing called “responsibility processing” ( and I had it).

      Scientology changed, the Orgs changed, the people changed. I am putting myself out here by saying this, but I am totally certain no two people on Earth experienced Scientology the same way. It is a long hall of mirrors.

      • Path of Buddha

        Hi Oracle!
        Great reply!
        I think that it all boils down to the fact that I was a paying public who paid dearly in time, money and effort. Yes, I agree that some of the staff were the most compassionate on earth. Guys like Louis Schwartz etc. Some great people who ran me on grades.
        Yes, there were gains in Scientology. The auditors were great at the beginning. It was great until about 1979.
        Overt/motivator is different from Karma in Theravada Buddhism. You might find definitions in Mahayana that are closer. Basically, you cannot escape past karma by running overts/motivators in past lives. The process involves the noble path. You need “right view” first before you can go to the second step of eight. Unfortunately, right view, the very first step involves anatta (no soul). It also involves some basic ideas about the nature of gods which are not thetans.
        Yes, I agree that no two people experienced Scientology the same way. In fact, I know an OT8 who is still in it. In the last few weeks, we found the path that we are comfortable with. Would not go back for all the money on the planet. I do not see Miscavige as a reflection of compassion.
        Much Metta,
        GMW

        • Thanks for sharing your views and knowledge with me. Basic ideas about nature of Gods is very interesting to me. Always a pleasure to read posts. XXOO

        • Path of Buddha: “Yes, I agree that no two people experienced Scientology the same way.”

          The other day I came across a write-up by a former Scientologist who continued research on the tech and wrote under the name “Ouran.” He discovered some things which could explain why people didn’t experience Scientology the same way – or, for that matter, why the major religions don’t see reality the same way. Here are a couple excerpts:

          ———————————–

          “It has become evident to me that two of the processes used in Grade 5, AKA Power, are a direct address to two of the ten primal goal pairs listed below…

          “…these dichotomies hold in place — nay are used to CREATE! — the entire span of existence itself with all its details of structure such as emotional tones, mental archetypes and sequences of aberration. Knowing as we do that a person can fixate on, or obliterate from sight, various parts of themselves as depicted using the tone scale as a model, then a knowledge of EXACTLY what puts any portion of that scale in existence should give us a far better handle on deaberrating it…

          “There is a tendency among spiritually awakened people to dramatize one side or the other of the top two goal dichotomies. With the top goal pair, either the person absolutely declares an infinite God, or else declares a non-existence such as Hubbard’s “static” or modern Buddhism’s “anatta” (no self). With the #2 goal pair, the person declares either a universal consciousness or else a godlike individual uniqueness. These are incomplete views. That’s right: Hubbard’s ‘life is a static’ is a dramatized half of the #1 pair, the zero half. The other end of which is infinity and can be experienced as an infinity of living universes wherein all thoughts, matter, etc are one living beingness. On that #2 goal pair (the one atop coexistence), some people declare that ‘we are all one’, while others insist on their individuality. BOTH VIEWS ARE INCOMPLETE IN EACH CASE. BOTH VIEWS ARE HALF THE TRUTH.”

          http://www.censorthis.com/ouran/PGprocesses.html
          ———————————–

          He ends the write-up with the following:

          “The processes above are by no means complete. Any highly trained processor could instantly think of dozens which I missed. Frankly, processing is not my forte. My real strength is my ability to access truth directly. I am a meditator of the old school in the style of Gotama or Patanjali.”

          • Path of Buddha

            Hi Marildi!
            Thanks for the awesome data. I really enjoyed reading it. I must admit that I get the overall gist but I am not sure about the origin of the ideas.
            There is in the reading a very common error, however. Anatta is made equal to the static in Scientology. This might be true for some Buddhist schools but it is an error with Theravada. As has been mentioned many times on this blog, anatta is void of self. The static in Scientology has the potential to be. Also, anatta is directed to non-ownership of emotions, mind, and consciousness. The only real static that exists in Theravada is the instant between arise and fall. There is only change and nothing is permanent. The static in Scientology is like the base of a motor for a two terminal universe. I ran into this expanded data before. In fact, the person got very aggressive. It leads nowhere.
            I prefer that people who are not familiar with this concept simply call us the Hinayana school and be done with it. I get tired of correcting these people.
            We are fundamentalists; we prefer to be left alone. Our “tech” works and we do not need explanations outside of the suttas.
            MM,
            G

            • Path of Buddha: “Thanks for the awesome data. I really enjoyed reading it. I must admit that I get the overall gist but I am not sure about the origin of the ideas.”

              Great – I really enjoyed that data too. I think the origin of those ideas was indicated by Ouran in the following part of the last paragraph I quoted:

              “My real strength is my ability to access truth directly. I am a meditator of the old school in the style of Gotama or Patanjali.”

              With regard to him being able to “access truth directly,” I think he is referring to the same kind of discoveries that have been made by other ex-Scientologists who continued to solo audit further and further back in time. One person I know says she has gone back on the track to the Big Bang, which can be compared to the Buddha’s statement that he had been present for many Big Bangs. I also took note of the interesting fact that, as per the above quote, Ouran was a student of the meditation style of Gotama.

              “As has been mentioned many times on this blog, anatta is void of self. The static in Scientology has the potential to be. Also, anatta is directed to non-ownership of emotions, mind, and consciousness.”

              That is the area where I think Hubbard made his error – or, as per Ouran, was dramatizing. I put it in terms of “ego” – not the way Freud defined ego but the way spiritual teachers like the Buddha define “self.” The ego – which seems to be the same as anatta – is defined by them as the whole accumulation of thoughts and feelings the individual believes makes up the self, i.e. believes that this is who he is. The students of this teaching, as with Buddhism, are also “directed to non-ownership” as the path to awakening and true spiritual freedom.

              On this point about “self,” what I got from Ouran’s write-up was that (in terms of 4-valued logic) the ego/self is both true and not true, and that both Hubbard and Buddhism (at least some Buddhist sects) missed this when they claimed that only one side of the dichotomy was truth. And the thing that makes Ouran’s data compelling to me is that he apparently perceived directly that this dichotomy came about in the very early part of the universe and that some spiritual teachers are dramatizing one side of it or the other.

              “The static in Scientology is like the base of a motor for a two terminal universe.”

              I think that is basically saying there would not even be a two-terminal universe – in other words, a universe of dualities – if it weren’t being held in place by the “mind of static.” I really like what the non-dualist teacher Mooji has to say about this in the short video below. See what you think.

              MM,
              M.

              • Path of Buddha

                Marildi wrote:

                “teachers like the Buddha define “self.” The ego – which seems to be the same as anatta – is defined by them as the whole accumulation of thoughts and feelings the individual believes makes up the self, i.e. believes that this is who he is. ”

                This needs to be clarified so I will use a story and you will never doubt the interpretation again. In the 6th century BCE, wandering monks would meet on the paths of India. One would start by saying “natta?” or “anatta”?
                At that time the Vedic hymns were in question on the soul belief. There were new ideas. The old idea was “natta”. It meant that you sort of had the idea of an immortal soul. The new idea spread by the Buddha was “anatta” or no soul or no I.
                In Pali “a” is a negative. So you can get it – natta = essence: anatta means “no soul” Buddhism starts with a great big negative. Add to this the fact that Buddha was silent on most subjects and you get a great religion. Hubbard is the opposite. He spoke millions of words about everything but he is out of date on many subjects.
                The video was great and ties in with this. Duality is expressed in Theravada as “papanca.” It literally means the multiplier. It is the thought process that gets you into trouble. Thus Hubbard suffered from “natta” and papanca. He was into his ego. In Buddhism self is defined as name and form, feelings, consciousness, mental objects, and mental activities. Anatta is the absence of these mentioned above, the negative state.
                Had Hubbard understoon “anatta” he would have been more silent at times.
                Hope this helps. I need to be more silent.
                MM,
                G

                • Path of Buddha: “In Buddhism self is defined as name and form, feelings, consciousness, mental objects, and mental activities. Anatta is the absence of these mentioned above, the negative state.”

                  George, that definition of “self” is basically the definition of “ego,” which is also called “body-mind.” So if by “self” you mean natta or soul, that definition is not the way “soul” is generally defined. The soul is “a spiritual being” distinct from the mind, whereas the mind is essentially the ego. Said another way, spirit is non-physical, whereas mental objects and feelings and the other things you listed have a physicality, a physical aspect or quality. This is my understanding.

                  Also, what I had in mind when I said that the ego seems to be the same as anatta (no soul) was that ego is a non-permanent entity rather than being immortal and eternal as a soul is generally considered to be. But I can see that this obviously isn’t saying the same thing as “ego is the same as the soul.”

                  MM,
                  M

                  • Path of Buddha

                    Hi Marildi,
                    I see your point. Ego as a term was not invented 2,600 years ago so it is difficult to get it defined in Buddhism. Also, the distinction between soul and spirit, as you say, adds another perspective.
                    The Buddha was silent on the issue of an immortal soul so we do not speculate. The difficulty with making ego equivalent to anatta is that the I is only one small function within the spectrum of body/mind. In Buddhism I is simply a delusion which is only a minor case of anatta. As usual, you have given me very excellent comments.
                    One must also consider that anatta has a different meaning to an ordinary person and to a saint. An ordinary person would see name and form as concept and physical reality. A saint, in a mystical frame of mind, would see anatta as the total non-ownership of what is.
                    Mind was also not a term available 2,600 years ago. Getting it all from Pali can be a challenge.
                    I’ll work on this a bit more.
                    MM,
                    G

                    • Path of Buddha

                      Hi Marildi,
                      Another aspect to consider is that everything in Theravada Buddhism is impermanent. Even if the spirit is different from mind, it would be impermanent. I heard a lecture last night on the un-caused. It is hard to imagine it. The key is in the formation of name and form. In Pali it is “Nama/Rupa” Name can also be considered as concept and Rupa is better defined as “molestation”. Form is the common translation. We are thus handling motion with the mind. In contrast “a rupa” is the formless state or the unmolested state. This is where impermanent spiritual beings congregate. It is an unmolested state. Some have bodies some do not.
                      Anyway, no-self(anatta) must be seen in the context of impermanence(anicca).
                      I think of Ego but I also think of Id. Freud was a genius. In the end he was closer to Buddhism, as I recall.

                    • “I think of Ego but I also think of Id.”

                      Aha – maybe that’s what’s getting in the way of our discussion. As I understand it, the word “ego” in this context is not used the way Freud defined it. This is from Wikipedia:
                      ———————————-
                      Ego may refer to:
                      – Ego (Freudian), one of the three constructs in Sigmund Freud’s structural model of the psyche
                      – Self-concept
                      – I (pronoun)
                      – Egotism
                      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ego
                      ————————————

                      The way I’ve been using “ego” is the second one above – “self-concept”. Here’s another quote from Wikipedia:
                      ————————————-
                      “One’s self-concept (also called self-construction, self-identity, self-perspective or self-structure) is a collection of beliefs about oneself[that includes elements such as academic performance,gender roles, sexuality, and racial identity. Generally, self-concept embodies the answer to ‘Who am I?'”
                      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-concept
                      —————————————
                      Does that match up with the Buddhist definition of self?

                      “The key is in the formation of name and form. In Pali it is ‘Nama/Rupa.’ Name can also be considered as concept and Rupa is better defined as “molestation”. Form is the common translation. We are thus handling motion with the mind. In contrast “arupa” is the formless state or the unmolested state. This is where impermanent spiritual beings congregate. It is an unmolested state. Some have bodies some do not.”

                      Very interesting – thanks!

                    • Path of Buddha: “Ego as a term was not invented 2,600 years ago so it is difficult to get it defined in Buddhism.”

                      Hi George,

                      What I was trying to say was that the Buddha’s definition of “self” seems to be the same as what is called the ego (sometimes called the “lower self”). But the term that’s used doesn’t really matter because my only point was that the definition of “self” you gave is not the same meaning as “soul” (which is sometimes called the “higher self”). Plus, as you say, the Buddha was silent on the issue of an immortal soul. In other words, the self and soul are two different subjects – both in Buddhism, apparently, and in other other non-dual teachings as well.

                      “The difficulty with making ego equivalent to anatta is that the I is only one small function within the spectrum of body/mind.”

                      That’s my understanding too (assuming you are using “I” to mean the same as “self”). I thought you were the one equating ego with soul and thus putting it in the context of natta/anatta (soul/no-soul), and my whole point was that ego and soul are not the same.

                      “A saint, in a mystical frame of mind, would see anatta as the total non-ownership of what is.”

                      That seems to be the basic non-dual idea that there is no individual immortal soul – but thee is an immortal Oneness, also called spirit.

                      One surprising thing I learned from you on this thread was that in Buddhism the soul is “nearly permanent.” I think this could account for why some people experience it as immortal.

                      Thanks for “working on this a bit more.”🙂

                      MM,
                      M.

              • Thanks for posting the Mooji video, Miraldi. Last night I browsed some of the videos for about two hours. I pondered a few things, but mostly enjoyed his presence and vibe. The audience attention and participation was interesting and refreshing. I like Mooji. (smile)

                • Richard, you are welcome! I’m glad you had the same kind of response to him as I do. Here’s another short one you might like:

        • About the karma, you wrote,” Basically, you cannot escape past karma by running overts/motivators in past lives”

          I have never considered escaping past karma. You would have to go back in time. I can only time warp forwards, where I put things (out there) to arrive someplace in my future. I love the idea of karma, everyone gets to be in charge of their own justice. It just seems so fair.

          • P.S. But people can misread karma depending on what condition they are parked in. Someone parked in doubt, won’t trust if what is happening to them is good, or bad. They loose a job they think it is bad karma revisiting them, when actually it was to free them up for a better paying job in a better location. Because they accepted it as bad karma, they don’t bother to read the want ads.

            Someone parked in treason, is also in treason towards them self. They can stumble into a free week at the finest resort in Monaco, and they will think the win was some kind of set up and the food servers are out to poison them.

            So, people run injustice on themselves all the time, relative to their condition. Take good karma and convert to bad. Or fly into bad karma thinking they are into something good.

            • Path of Buddha

              .This comment stretches my imagination a bit. I see your point about the tone level. Actually I tossed out that tool a long, long time ago. I think Hubbard’s comments about gays sort of invalidate the entire scale. Covert hostility etc. Also, I found the scale rather constrained even after it was expanded. I think “Battlefield Earth” with John Travolta was based on it. This was probably one the lowest movies of all time. Am I wrong on that?

              • No, you are right about that. “Battlefield ” in itself describes a way of living on Earth. Not everyone is here to fight a war. Not everyone is carrying a grudge. Not sure if you ever ran the Clearing course platens, I did, after I left the Church. You are not supposed to but I did. Valuable information just to see them. But the point is with the math on the bridge. if you run out “the past” on the CC platens, why would you need to address OT3? And also, people in Scientology seem to forget there was a civilization on Earth already when that happened. If it happened for some or anyone. But if you ran the CC platens, why would you ever “go past” ? You realize you have to mock it up at all for it to exist. You can go into other directions like identities and purposes, you start to move horizontal. After you go through identities what is left but purposes? And those revolve a lot around identity.

                Not sure why the Church is into soldiers so much, fighting people, painting themselves as the oppressed and wanting and needing wars and enemies. But it parks the people that have those purposes firmly in enemy conditions, hate blame, resentment. And Scientologists tend to morph into menacing particles and desperate particles that do not make for good company.

                • When you flow horizontal into identities and purposes, you then expand out into “items”. What is, what isn’t your items. You can get very savvy about people giving you wrong items, items that are not yours etc. And this aligns with karma too. Because people that feel free to harm you, are basically trying to tell you that you deserve to be harmed attacked or suppressed. And if you buy into that as your item when it is not, you can get thrown under the bus. And think you deserved it. If it isn’t your item to be harmed by someone else,, and you know it, it does not stick and it will recoil on the sender of the bad deed.

                  I had a guest visit once who tried to unmock everyone in my house, the person just managed to unmock them self here. A continuos source of wrong items and wring indications, nobody here bought into.

                  • But I think this is an issue with “flying ruds” in the Church. The auditor automatically assumes if something bad happened to you, you were on a motivator flow, and that is why you go right to flow two. “What did you do?” That there, is giving you an item. “You deserved it”. “You bought in on yourself”. “It is really you are protesting about.”

                    And I think, this pushing this item on the people all the time as a given, is why you get these hardened people that have no sympathy for others. They actually get numb. And they do not complain, because they get into this mindset that they deserve what ever happens to them. And people that go that way, do not fight back or defend them self. They fold on force.

                    Sometimes people can screw you over easily if they think you will just introvert on it and take it as your item. These things that fly at you, you have to get mathematical real fast. Who’s idea is this and does it really belong to me? If you are kind to someone and they treat you badly, they are putting a wrong item on you. It is in the here and now.

                    I’m not sure if someone can get in command of their karma if they can not sort out their items from other people’s items.

                    • I ask you, who in America that is providing labor and service for a group, deserves an 11.00 a week pay check? Because that is what the RPFers get. You really have to work hard to get someone to agree working 60 hours a week, has a value of 11.00. This is where people tend to lose all reality with math.

                    • Someone in doubt or confusion, would have a hard time knowing their own items and keeping their things in their own drawer and things that do not belong to them, out. But items get scrambled very fast in the Scientology theater. You tell someone in the Sea Org they are man’s only hope, after decades of service they are scrubbing pots for 11.00 a week, you are telling them a wog scrubbing pots is worth 7.50 an hour, but since they are Sea Org their labor on the hour is only pennies and less valuable than wogs performing the same tasks. Both things can not be true, they can not be “more relevant because they are Sea Org ” and “less relevant because they are Sea Org”. Both statements can not be true. And actually, both statements are false. But you can get a person to think with two false laws that cancel each other out. And if you have a mathematical mind, and trust me you can mock up any kind of mind, reactive, analytical, mathematical, etc etc, you can see when things do not add up. I think a mathematical mind is senior to a reactive mind. Just think about these Doctor Spock kind of people who are always just adding and subtracting. But anyway, all of these things really interconnect. Items, conditions, purposes, identities. All of Ghandi’s power came from the fact that he could could do the math on values and conditions. And explain this math to people. He freed a nation with honest math. He just kept pointing out that the British were out exchange and running wrong items and wrong indications on India. He made them fold and delivered India out of a false debt. How can you invalidate 1+1 =2? You can’t make that truth go away. Because too many people need that knowledge to count their wealth. They will not let it be buried.

                    • For me, the strangest thing about the Scientology arena, is all of the people involved in it, that can not think with it, use it, understand it, apply it. Hubbard would have been questioned while he was still alive about some of going ons and rituals. When people were tossed overboard someone would have at least walked up to him and pointed out he was in the tone level of punishing bodies. That on OT3 he was asking people to mock up “The Past”. The the ethics policies were way down in the enforcement band on the CDEI scale. That people on a comm ev were already third partied about the accused before the ritual even began. The spookiest thing to me about Scientology, is why all of the others were in it.

                • Path of Buddha

                  Hi Oracle!
                  Yes, I ran the clearing course platens in LA around 1972 before Flag in Clearwater was invented. I remember feeling the same way. They were very comprehensive. I found a shift when I did OT III a few months later. One started running more simple narrative stories with a lot less things to organize. Many people say OT II was the best level and I tend to agree.
                  I noticed in one of your posts that you were assigned the task of calling OT8’s to get them to return for the re-run. I remember getting a call from Laurie Webster and another person from Flag in about 1989-1990. Did you actually make any calls? I hear conflicting stories. One person told me 99.9% of all OT8’s returned to Flag for a de-briefing. Another person said only 80% ever returned. Do you have an accurate number?
                  GMW

                  • Oh my God no George, I never called or contacted anyone to tell them they had to go back onto OTVll. They might as well have said, “We want you to devote yourself to invalidating and caving in, everyone at the top of the bridge”.

                    The first person Morton Astrupguard told, broke into tears and sobbed. A woman out in L.A.. God help him, he died at a young age.

                    I can imagine Laurie Webster wallowing in sadism, as she plowed through her phone records and speed dialed. She was just that way.

                    I heard there a mass exodus. Less than 50% of the people returned. Most of those folk were burnt out, and the OTVll’s at the base had not been happy campers for years anyway. I think when many finished OT8 they already had decided they were done with Scientology. Nobody was ever allowed to complete a cycle of action in that place.

                    One of the staff from the Freewinds showed up at my apartment wanting to leave the Sea Org a few months later, he was pretty caved in. These were such good, devoted, caring staff. It could not have been easy for them to do this.

                    I would be very curious to know what you were told when you were called. Were you told it was David Mayo’s fault? What were you billed for if I might ask, accomos, intensives, retrain? Were you O.K. with going back and was it worth it for you?

                    • Path of Buddha

                      Thanks for the information! I did not know about the burn out on OT VII. Laurie Webster, true to form, only wanted more money for another cycle. She hardly even mentioned the OT VIII cycle saying something like “Well, it needs re-tread”. I was so aloof at the time she finally said “You are not playing the game!” She then moved on. I was never told that it was Mayo’s fault. They used that on OT V so much that it was worn out. I was told “The COB is doing intensive research in LRH’s tradition. He has discovered the basic reason why the level failed. You need to come back.” This was not Laurie. It was someone who only identified herself as from Flag not the Freewinds. The Registrar from the Freewinds showed up in Miami begging for a place to stay. I told her to meet me in downtown MIami but she never showed up. It was a total mess. My two FSM’s died within 3 years as a result of the instability created on the level. I was very lucky to survive. My wife and still cannot explain how we managed to pull out of Scientology.
                      After almost 30 years I finally saw the situation clearly. I survived because I had the right balance of belief and rejection. In other words, I maintained my sanity and gradually pulled out of the OT VIII data.
                      GMW

                    • Whew! I had to read this a few times, take some breaks in between. I hope you do not mind if I break this down a little.

                      You wrote:

                      ” She hardly even mentioned the OT VIII cycle saying something like “Well, it needs re-tread”. I was so aloof at the time she finally said “You are not playing the game!” ”

                      So, she casually dropped the bomb so you really didn’t “get it”, then declared you not a “team player” ? I guess that was an item given to you that caused you to reflect? The outpoint was with YOU. She’s good. She’s a professional grifter.

                      ” I was never told that it was Mayo’s fault. They used that on OT V so much that it was worn out.”

                      Lord have mercy! What happened on OTV? I didn’t even know about that one! I was told it was Mayo’s fault. Like Greg Whilhare (or whatever he was called) didn’t look in Mayo’s desk drawer for years ? Laughter! In fact, saying that to his face is what got me out of the Sea Org within hours.

                      ” I did not know about the burn out on OT VII.”

                      Well, water under the bridge. That was a pun. I would say at least 50% of the people that started OTVll blew off it.

                      “The COB is doing intensive research in LRH’s tradition.”

                      Laughter!

                      “The Registrar from the Freewinds showed up in Miami begging for a place to stay. I told her to meet me in downtown MIami but she never showed up. ”

                      She was probably blowing and found a faster solution.

                      ” I was told “The COB is doing intensive research in LRH’s tradition. He has discovered the basic reason why the level failed.” “My two FSM’s died within 3 years as a result of the instability created on the level. ”

                      At least they confessed to the deed.

                      “In other words, I maintained my sanity and gradually pulled out of the OT VIII data.”

                      This felt like a punch in the stomach to me. Are you saying that OT8 was designed to unmock people? Because I have read three versions and that is what I took away from it. All three versions. Including “expanded” OT8.

                      The purpose of the level came across to me, as a way to throw people into doubt or confusion as a condition. The end result, to be in a lower condition.

                      But anyway, I do math as a continuous and while I was at Flag there was only one HGC where people were constantly blown out as a given. The L’s HGC. But only the people on L11 and L12. Not L10. Why? When I first got into Scientology everyone in the HGC was blown out 24/7.

                      And if you have ever had L11 and 12, and you are smart, you get it.

                      A person should never need auditing after L12. No auditing. You should be done. You should be done even self inspecting. But only if you are very mathematical. And I will tell you why.

                      You list out all of these identities you have opposed. The auditor assess’ the list, finds the biggest reading item. You are asked who / or what would oppose that identity. I had L12. But with L11 it doesn’t fly, but let me tell you about L12. Let’s say in your life, you opposed cops, robbers, the middle class. That is a very short list but this is just an example. Your lists can be very long and the auditor will assess them. Let’s say your big item was robbers. So, you are asked who / what would oppose a robber? Boom! There is an identity you had that you forgot about. You say, “a victim”. Bang! There is an identity. You run who / what would oppose a victim? Then you run out what that identity has done or withheld. But, O.K. common sense would tell you the victim with held a willingness to fight back or to survive other wise they would not have become a victim. The with hold does not have to be a negative. It can be a positive. And you know you just keep going that way for hours. Back and forth. Oh bang, now you are shifted into a total positive on yourself! Who knew? And finally you get to this point where you can run, who /what would oppose blankety blank, you get the identity, you find out what the identity did or with held and with held, can be holy matter, like, “love”. Seriously this stuff can get religious. But at the end of this thing, you realize you are opposed to someone that has a “case” and that is why you are even in auditing to begin with. Then you run, “who or what would have a case?” And BANG! It’s over! The identity you mocked up to have a case. You mock up an identity with a case. All you have to do to unload the case is let go of the identity with the case.

                      Once you have made it thorough this you can handle yourself 24/7. If you are smart. Yes, I did know someone that finished L12 and joined the the PLO. Went right over their head. There are the oblivious. I had an auditor on the L’s that was so attuned to the auditor’s code I was not interrupted with petty introverting details about needle phenomena. Smart enough to know my ruds were in if I arrived for a session.

                      But the biggest blow off at the base, were people that finished L12. The highest rate of blow off at the base, is the L’s HGC. People are allowed to complete a cycle of action. Case resolution.

                    • Sorry, didn’t mean to imply that is all there was to L12 or that was the only step on that rundown. Not any secret anymore as it has been on the net for years. Just pointing out that “case” is an accessory for an identity. So is unawareness, unconsciousness, and every other condition you see.

                      Why would you stick someone on OTVll for years if they could just run, “Who or what would have BT’s?” And have them inspect the identity they mocked up. Or, “Who or what would be monitored by an intergalactic police force?” (a criminal).

                      Just like karma is about budgeting, identities are this wardrobe we carry around, and you know, you just clean out the wardrobe and you don’t have to think about storage burdens.

                    • For me, I see the flaw in the “Scientology system”, was promising uniform results. And it’s right there on the grade chart under “abilities gained”. You can’t take that away from another human being, they they are always in charge of their abilities and capabilities. I know something had to be promised in exchange for the cash, not every chick has the makings to be a ballerina. He could have just promised “improvement”. This set a lot of people up for losses. And unattainable goals. Freedom from overwhelm? Then you overwhelm people with debt to get up this bridge? Overwhelm staff with burden guilt and justice? There is always a more potent force than yourself. Higher powers. Look at how easily people become overwhelmed with hate towards Scientology! Until they are literally abusing anyone remotely involved with the subject. Overwhelm isn’t even always a negative. People become overwhelmed with gratitude, love, beauty, all sorts of wonderful and magical forces.

                      But you are left with this group, who even promises on one grade you will gain the ability to communicate to anyone on any subject, while the leader can not pick up the phone and clear up and ARCX.

                      Promising uniform results is what sunk that ship. You can’t even promise that with the training. The certificates being printed in that place are worthless. You can train someone all up the grade chart to the top and have a little bully sit down in front of you for an auditor. The what? He will make sure you get squashed.

                      I guess you can promise uniform results in a package of Hanes T shirts of three, where the fabric and sewing differences can go unnoticed.

            • I know this guy that was a bartender for many years at a Casino in Las Vegas. He used to steal from the bar frequently, maybe nightly. This went on for years. So, the Casino has this drawing for employees, to send the winner on a cruise with their spouse. His spouse who worked there, wins. They get sent on this very expensive cruise and the entire time, the guy will not leave his cabin because he is afraid of pick pockets. His wife had to go to the buffet and bring him in his food to their cabin.

          • Path of Buddha

            “I have never considered escaping past karma. You would have to go back in time. I can only time warp forwards, ”

            Yes, this is a very good point of view. I really like the idea of “time warp forwards”. This is a great description of a way to start in new motion. I remember some of Hubbard’s lectures on the GPM which talked about the crossover from saint to soldier and from soldier to saint. It was like a time warp forwards.
            GMW

          • Another thing about karma, we are mocking it all up. It is a natural mathematics system where people try to balance things. It is a math thing too. When “it all adds up”, you have reached the end of the equation. You can swing yourself on either side of the column, in terms of what you are due (good or bad) and what you owe (bad) . Some people are just buried under debt.

            But once you get on top of your own karma, you can feel compelled to “take on more” and meddle in other people’s karma. Change it or alter it. And through inter action you co create karma with others. The thing is, when you are traveling with a spiritual tribe, is that you have members that go rogue. Someone harms you, and suddenly some part of your tribe feeling the need to sort out the math, goes off from your tribe to assist your enemy with their karma. Then it becomes their karma too. And your choices become their karma too. It is a benevolent thing when you assume someone else’s bad karma to help them or ease their load. But, taking away from them can set them up for a loss. If you get my drift.

            You can also out create your karma. The worst thing I ever did was set a guinea pig cage out in the sun while cleaning a house. It had four guinea pigs in it and I did not think about the heat as I had just relocated to a warmer climate. I came out several hours later to find the guinea pigs dead and half roasted. My first instinct was to beat my face against the pavement until I bled to death. The ARC breaks you can have with yourself are far worse than the ARCX’s you have with others.

            I’ve come to find, you have to ARCX with yourself, before ARCXing with others, due to your own lack of tolerance. The ARCX with yourself always precedes the ARCX with others, and this is a missing element in the ruds. It is the earliest.

            I won’t tell you how I did it, but I did manage to out create that. And I had to move several children that were orphans, into a home. That home.

            Karma, is budgeting. Seriously.

            And then, bad karma is a like a virus that spreads. People with debts set you up for losses, then expect you to contribute to their bad karma. And if you do, you just inherit another liability because the only way they had to become relevant, was make them self a bad memory to you and you got sucked into their motivator flow.

            And the thing I see with the Church of Scientology, is that they make their enemies relevant. Very relevant. They mock them up. Would Paulette Cooper be relevant today if the Church of Scientology didn’t make her relevant? The purpose of the Guardian’s Office and OSA, even CCHR, is to “make enemies relevant”. Not clears, not auditors, ….. enemies!

            Right now David Miscavige will not invest in an airlines ticket to send a class 12 auditor that has been working at Flag for three decades, to do OT8. But he will pay a P.I. 10K a week to stalk his father. His enemies are all relevant. His supporters, they owe him.

            What a fkn math student!!!!!!!!! He adds value to liabilities and does not invest in assets!!!!!!!!!!!!! And he pays himself as a value to do it!!!! He is just a very bad investment counselor! IN WOG TERMS! WHO DOES THIS???? I swear to God this man can not do long division. May God strike me dead tomorrow if David Miscavige can do long division, fifth grade math.

            • To clarify, I am not saying Paulette Copper is not relevant. in many ways as a human being. Any grifter that can scam their way onto a cruise liner with out paying and sun balm with a smile for the camera, has enormous promise and potential.

              When I speak of her relevance I am only referring to her part in the Scientology theater.

              Will I ever know how much she made / was paid? I am so curious. That seems like such a relevant piece of information in that flap.

      • Hi Oracle! – Here’s a lighthearted joke for you and it really is just a joke. (smile) I think if I got to know you in person and we became friends, I would still have a lingering suspicion that you were looking at me like I was a bunch of ones and zeroes like in the Matrix. In other words, what is the mathematical equation of “Richard”. laughter! I’m outa here

        • Laughter! No, it’s not like that! I do not a associate people with numbers, not even the tone scale. I don’t care what someone’s tone level is, because a ” low toned ” person can be far removed from treason, and a ” high toned ” person can rip the carpet out from under you.

          I do take into account what condition others are in towards me, and others. Sometimes people just generally parked / firmly wedged in treason or enemy conditions, and it bleeds around into their environment.

          People often think because someone is new on a post they are in non existence. That person may be parked in an enemy condition when they walk through the front door. They just got parked there.

          Did you ever notice David Miscavige never once asked people what they wanted and needed from him? The entire time I was in the Sea Org I never once saw a new executive on a post ask anyone below them what was wanted and needed, as if the ” underlings” were so irrelevant, what they wanted and needed wasn’t worth knowing.

          In worse case scenarios, care providers find out what is wanted and needed and then run a big can’t have on it. And I think this is the ruination of Scientology.

          Do you know how easy it is to get along in life and succeed in life, by simply finding out what is wanted and needed, and giving it to someone?

          So, when you meet someone that finds out what you want and need, and deliberately runs a can’t have on you, that’s all you need to know, to understand the (minus) value that person will add to the current scene. Especially when you are providing that other person with valuable resources. You can weed out liabilities. Even before they happen.

          The biggest mind fkers find out what you want and need, run a big can’t have on you, and then hit you with accusations that you did not or could not deliver what was wanted and needed. When the duty to deliver, was on them, to deliver to you. When you can think with these conditions you can see a lot of invisible things.

          And I think this is what happened a lot in the Church. People that could not do the math properly. But when I first came in, it wasn’t like that. Public were not being blamed. They were not made responsible for delivery. For the buildings, for the finances, for the conditions. We were all in a crappy welfare hotel and 300 people on the Dianetics course, 22 people on HQS and comm course when I started. And that was just foundation. Everyone was co auditing.

          And then, there is the creepy and bizarre. Sometimes what people want and need, is a very dark thing you don’t want to give. Power to harm others. Inquisitions. Bad news and slander. Conspiracies in treason. And there is an inversion into the dark side / parallel universe. And you are not going to get out of non existence with them. They set you up for a loss that way.

          Do you know why we have a civilization that is ever evolving, sorting its self out, improving? Because from what I’ve noticed, 95% of the “wogs” out here, can find out what is wanted and needed, and give it up. In a right away style. You go into the restaurant, the waitress comes. You tell her you want a cheeseburger, and..PRESTO!

          I don’t know why Scientologists struggle with this. You get a person, their parent wants to see their kid and spend time with them. This kid can not find out what is wanted and needed and give it up. Next thing, the MAA tells the kid to disconnect because the parent has wants and needs. Then you have a big PR flap. People want to know the truth, about what goes on in the Church or what went on. Someone starts to forward the valuable information, you have hit squad squirrel busters all over the yard. You get these people that are parked in lower conditions like enemy, because of all the attitudes they buy into, then they can not get out of non e with anyone anymore. “Wogs are stupid, we are prosecuted by the status quo, the OT’s are out ethics, blah blah blah and they just get these people parked in enemy conditions viewing everyone else as menacing particles. Behind every P.R. flap someone could not do a non e.

          Nobody wants and needs another bad memory. The Church’s only value was ever, being able to take away bad memories.

          • I didn’t know you were in the sea org, Oracle. What was your rank? (pause) – Never mind. That leads to war stories – laughter

            Since you mention advancing civilization and a parallel universe, I can’t resist mentioning that at this very moment I’m an entity communicating with other entities over vast distances in a parallel universe called the internet. Language translators are still elementary but will soon be able to convey nuances and idiom within languages. Self learning computers and eventual artificial intelligence will speed the process.

            George is participating in the development of the IBM Watson computer so he might want to comment on that.

            • Path of Buddha

              Hi Richard,
              IBM Watson development meetings reveal great possibilities. I saw a demonstration of IBM Watson, the stock broker. Could you imagine investing with a machine? The real broker sits in a rocket ship with screens while Watson crunches all of the numbers. Watson only needs to record your voice and then ask a few questions. He can then pick out what stocks to offer. If you are kind enough to write a few paragraphs for him, he can sell you wealth management.
              GMW

            • Laughter! I didn’t have any rank. I was told I was, ” in the valence of an FCCI ” after six months, so I was put on a post where I spent 99% of my time with public, chatting. I had spent some time at Flag as a student / P.C. and had gotten chummy with a lot of the public. I talked with Scientologists from all over the world for six years straight. I was the “public whisperer”. Laughter! Never had a junior, never had a senior near by, so I really floated. Left when I got told I had to call all of the OTVlll’s and tell them they had to go back onto OTVll. To me, that was worse than the Fort Harrison burning down. That meant, the Sea Org was in treason. I was gone in two days and paid my “freeloader” debt off before I left the building with 110 commendations tucked neatly away in my briefcase. I tried to still help in some other ways, with social betterment volunteering, didn’t work out my being XSO working with people still in the Sea Org. But I have some very funny memories from that time.

              I went on mission with one guy and we passed by a fashion boutique for women. I saw a leather jacket in the window I just had to have. Geeze, he only had to wait for me for 30 minutes while I tried on clothes but he went so nuclear!!! He had only been off the RPF for two days and he was in terror.

              Went on another mission with a very senior exec and me and the public we went to see, ended up ditching him, in a foreign country. When he found us, he was so pissed off his teeth were locked, because it was a Wednesday night and he was trying to get his stats up. Someone (there were a group of us) promised to give him a 150K donation the next day, if he would just leave. He did and they did. Those were some fun and funny times. To much to recount.

              Truth is, it was my first experience actually working alongside Sea Org people. I didn’t know they could be dysfunctional outside of the Org. They were not comfortable out of the Organization and always calling “home” to their senior to recount every minute of every day. It was like they had been put on a spaceship and sent into outer space! They were really scared when they got outside and given some leash.

              Once, I was sent to go see someone with another public Scientologist. She was sent along because she was seriously beautiful, single, and looking for a mate. This guy was apparently a whale who had promised a big donation via an A list celebrity and we were supposed to fetch it. He was having doubts. But he was single too and looking for a mate. Our orders were just to go fetch.

              We thought we were all bad ass and dangerous, and this guy plays us like a violin.

              We get there (catching him off guard) and he is all good, says he will take us out to dinner. Cool. We get in this very expensive car and he drives us around the area (big city) for over an hour with the roof off. Now we are having a blast listening to music. He takes us to the most expensive sushi joint in the city and ordered small cases of Saki tasting cups. We thought we died and went to heaven! This guy was Scientology V.I.P..

              That is all I remember from that night. We woke the next day in the middle of the day at his house. I don’t even recall leaving the Saki bar.At least I woke up clothed and on the couch. This guy was like ten steps in front of us. He was streetwise. I went home.

              I called the guy who sent us and told him it was over (for me) on that cycle. That guy won my heart out smarting us, he made us so irrelevant I was walking around his home for an hour trying to remember who I was when I woke up. LAUGHTER!!!

              And you are right about the Internet being a parallel universe. Because I have not seen that guy in twenty years and through the Internet I found out he needed a very, very important favor from me two weeks ago. And there it was…presto!!!!! I was in the right place at the right time to help him out.

              I’ll be leaving this life with a lot of good memories.

              • The funny thing is, the donation he committed to, was supposed to be for Narconon. The people sent to fetch it couldn’t stay sober long enough to ask him for it.

  41. Path of Buddha

    Pip wrote:
    “Thanks for your kind words George. As far as I know Rupert Spira has no connection with Scientology although his concept of “The awareness of awareness” appears to be identical to what I learnt when in Scientology.

    I don’t understand your question where you refer to “war in heaven”. I would be grateful if you could fill me in a bit from your viewpoint.”

    In the Bible, (I’m not sure where), it is reported that Lucifer and a gang of fallen angels rebelled against God. God sent them to Hell since they could no longer share heaven in a low state. I was considering that this was a “rebirth”. After all, Lucifer transformed into independence.
    Much Metta,
    George

  42. Marty there is one king of soul. And it isn’t all of those pretenders.

    It is Sam Cook:

  43. I’ve returned from regeneration. The regen chamber is out in the garage since the wife doesn’t like it too much. I’ve hooked it up with a MarkV e-meter (the older e-meters are more accurate).

    A general philosophical question I’ve considered is that there are now 7.5 billion spirits, souls, thetans on the planet or about twice as many as 50-75 years ago, so where did they all come from? This in fact relates to the topic Culture of Complaint and us vs. them.

    A simple anthropological answer is that humans are an animal species which developed consciousness at some point along the evolutionary chain. Overpopulation causes competition for resources and destruction of the environment. From a recent Scientific American article, stable population is attained by a birth rate of 2.1 children per female. Education, free birth control and empowerment of women provides this. Empowered women can make choices regarding having children

  44. An American Indian sage named Stalking Wolf had a vision of holes in the sky (ozone layer) and terrible tribulations on earth. A time of reckoning.

    Philosophical considerations are half of the equation. The other half is the physical planet. Basic math.

    “Climatologists” or climate scientists are a joke. When was the last time a climatologist mentioned zero population growth or, god forbid, population control? The religious fanatics would have a fit and there goes the funding. They stick to scrubbers on smokestacks and 100 mpg cars. end of rant

  45. Path of Buddha

    Hi Oracle! This is a continuation of the thread above. You hit the excellent points. Congrats!

    “This felt like a punch in the stomach to me. Are you saying that OT8 was designed to unmock people? Because I have read three versions and that is what I took away from it. All three versions. Including “expanded” OT8.

    The purpose of the level came across to me, as a way to throw people into doubt or confusion as a condition. The end result, to be in a lower condition.”

    OT8 was designed to unmock people but on a bigger, cosmic scale. L12 was supposed to be child’s play. So what about a case on any of a thousand earths.
    The OT8 version that I did involved Hubbard’s imagined research out of his body chasing a few bad guys in another dimension. As a minor point, he sort of puts minor attention on the anti-Christ role and saves earth in one afternoon. Hubbard is out for bigger game. Miscavige’s versions of OT8 are pure nonsense. You get an E/P like “now I know who I was so that I can be” I cannot remember the exact words. It does not matter. This is child’s play and you could have had it after you did a few pages of Self Analysis.
    I said on another blog that I thought Hubbard was trashing Scientology with the OT8 narrative. I got blasted from four sides. Like I was nuked. But OT8 in 1988 did exactly that. It trashed Scientology. Miscavige had to disown it and change it. Yes, OT8 is an unmocking operation but on a large scale. Hubbard is saying to you “What the hell do you need me for? Grow up.”
    You have in the OT8 narrative Lucifer and Jesus in opposition. You have God and Satan in opposition. The Roman Empire was Lucifer, anti-Christ, and Satan. Jesus was the new emperor of Rome, but he was not like Nero. The new emperor of Rome created the Dark Ages for 1,000 years. Hubbard comes along as a vastly superior Thelemic being. He notices a battle of good and bad valences on planet earth. In Hubbard’s terms, the good of Jesus is not good because it is weakness. The bad of Lucifer is not all bad because you can survive better. So Hubbard takes Scientology and turns ARC on its head in the OT8 narrative. OT8 candidates on the Freewinds are expecting magic tech to make them OT so that they never need to deal with being bad again. No such luck. So 50% blow and a large percentage drop bodies like my FSMs. My one OT8 FSM was scared to death of “spontaneous combustion” He told me that he might any minute start of fire. His belief was high.
    It is no minor thing that Hubbard implies Jesus was a pedophile. It is also no small point that Hubbard implies he was the Buddha. Hubbard sees the Buddha between Jesus and Lucifer. Hubbard is aware that Buddhism has the no-soul doctrine, but he negates it with exteriorization. This closes the loop for him but does not withstand factural analysis. In the end, it did not matter. Hubbard was only trying to be consistent. He wanted everyone off of his back.
    GMW

    • Path of Buddha

      Additional data:
      Hundreds of ex-Scientologists have written or e-mailed asking me for the actual processes used on the original OT8. They are surprised when I tell them that we made our own C/S with the help of the C/S. This is important because Hubbard talks about auditing the GE and he talks about DNA and new areas.
      He talks about genetically pure bodies for him. It is obvious that he does not supply these processes. In fact, it would take him another life to deliver them.
      It was obvious to me that one needed to do what one could easily do. That is the best strategy. I submitted my plan to the C/S and it was accepted. You do get the feeling from Hubbard that he is asking you for something. He NEVER did this before. He is asking for bodies. He says that Scientology is left to some dedicated people. In the meantime, the elite OT8’s are going to support me. In typical Hubbard fashion. If you do not supply the bodies, you will never see me again. But, alas, it will be your own fault for breaking the chain.
      When I read the OT8 narrative on the Freewinds, I clearly saw that it was far too complex for a part-time venture. So I did enough auditing and created my own processes to retain enough sanity to get out of Scientology with minor damage. The real state of OT was to understand Hubbard’s game in full.
      The flip/flopping of identities in Scientology always struck me as important.
      Hubbard was not in a quantum universe.

    • Wow. I really had a dismay for the trashing of former spiritual leaders myself. Hubbard did tend to invalidate legendary figures and I think, this led Scientologists into “hallucinatory altitudes”. My first ridge was on him trashing Robert Kennedy. The thing about Christ, well, all of our laws are based on the ten commandments. The bible was about sharing social policies. People were able to organize and agree on policy. So it was highly beneficial in civilizing a planet. Christ never wrote a book, himself.

      Personal beliefs from thousands of years that have been in place and are workable, do not need to be replaced by anyone. I had my own codes of ethics and honor, I didn’t need one from Hubbard. I had other commitments to other tribes, other families, I did not come by for these offerings. We have a government in place, I did not subscribe to Int Management as my new government.

      Not really wanting to get into all of my own universal thoughts and ideas here. But I think Hubbard was channeling from higher powers when he was able to forward valuable information. Higher powers that he could not acknowledge. I think he, was the messenger.

      Labeling Scientology a church and religion, was a very bad move, as it instantly drew lines in the sand between the knowledge, and people who already had allegiances with other religious communities. That they also started to worship Hubbard as the God was plain embarrassing.

      Even he, could not think with the Scientology part of the time, and apply it. Which is why I think he was channeling. If you have channeled, you understand it. Sometimes, you are the via. You need to have an ear for own voice, because when you are talking, and it does not sound like you, that is not your voice. And Hubbard’s voice changed many times, it was not the same voice through out time. And whatever people audited and asked questions, they themselves never thought of, they channeled also.

      Having faith in a higher power is not necessarily a bad thing. Children all over the world do it to learn and survive.

      But you need to know when you have risen above your higher power.

      And you don’t necessarily need to kick the higher power you leaned on in the ass after that. Or you will be abandoned by higher powers, for your ingratitude and arrogance and insolence. I think that is what happened to Hubbard, and I think that is what happened to many people that explored Scientology. The ones that need to degrade him a regular basis.

      Hubbard referred disparagingly to someone as “Godless” in his early days, I can’t recall the tape.

      Later he had to drag people through natter and slander about Jesus and argue about the book of revelations. So, he had wrong items. He gave himself wrong items, I think “source” was one of them.

      That he was parked in an enemy condition towards other valuable people that came before him, can not be ignored.

      Miscavige is entwined in the same black magic, and so are the people that stalk Scientologists for sport.

      I personally believe. you are either in favor, or out of favor, with the Gods. Remaining in good favor, includes acknowledging their presence. The rest revolves around aesthetics. But this carries duties owed, no one can channel good, through ill will and dark purposes. You would be careful not to shame your tribe, or your higher powers. Maybe, we, some of us, are ambassadors. We serve. And our bread is earned through service to others on a horizontal plain. We are gifted with knowledge and vision as we earn it. The Gods will take care of you.

      If Hubbard was a God, he would have taken care of his people. He did not take care of his people. The Scientology community is not a symbiotic culture, it is, “every man for himself” and if anyone dramatizes this, it the leader of the Church.

      I never really had attention on Hubbard as a personality during my time in the Church, I already had my higher powers.

      I do not attack the Church, or Scientology, because I believe in higher powers and channeling. And it is only through these higher powers we can obtain insight and understanding. Not through buildings, rank, certificates, status or titles.

      If you are out of favor with the Gods, it doesn’t matter what building you are in or what book someone puts in front of you.

      A real Church, always teaches a new person, they are already in favor with God, and promotes a trust to a higher power. Even if it is just one God per student. Laughter! Higher power in Scientology means rank and status. Very temporary things that can be snatched away at any time on whim. The higher power is always fleeting and illusory, And the people there can erode on your personal power by getting you to harm or mistreat your fellow man. This is not religion.

      By the time Hubbard mentioned or approached religion, he had been abandoned and his tone level and attitudes about religion and the people that sowed it to make a better world, were very dark. He was anti religious. He was not a God. And Scientology is not a Church. It was built on ORGANIZATIONAL policy letters. He describes it as an organization in every policy written about it! That Miscavige is out making a mockery of Churchs and religion is on him. He even describes it in all of his programs called IDEAL ORGS. These are ORGS. He can’t keep a story straight. He has been out of favor with the Gods too. His higher powers are attorneys.

      Whatever the people are over there doing, is not a problem for me and I have no need to squash them, shame them or belittle them. I am not disappointed, with whatever higher powers led me down that path. The channeling worked out good for me. And it was not because I was a member of the IAS. It was because I had faith in higher powers. Powers above the Church of Scientology.

      You sure summon up some interesting ideas George. I like you for good company. Thank you.

      • Path of Buddha

        Extremely well written, Oracle. I like the universal application of your ideas.
        I feel calm.
        Thank you.

      • The Oracle: “But I think Hubbard was channeling from higher powers when he was able to forward valuable information.”

        Well said. That has been my conclusion too, as the volume of valuable information and wisdom is astounding. It seems to me that most people don’t recognize this, either because it is outside their reality or comprehension or because they are too focused on all the negative regarding Hubbard and Scientology. JMO

        • “Treat others as you would want them to treat you.” is simple enough. So are the ten commandments. People can understand that. How many Scientologists can think with that? How many people outside of Scientology can think with that? Purpose is senior to education.

          For one atom to have an effect on another atom, there must be communication between the two. For the sun to orbit it must communicate with other masses. You can have a person walking down the street and his internal organs are functioning perfectly and his entire body system is in communication and co ordination thereby and therewith air, oxygen, heartbeat, etc etc. And the being can be in confusion, treason, enemy, dramatizing being a menacing particle, out of sincere communication with everyone. Unless his communication is propelled to harm attack or suppress or someone.

          It is not the bodies and mest pulling us down. It’s the other way around. The mest is in communication.

        • And, the mest can follow policy, rules and commandments. You drop the flower vase, it abides by the laws of gravity, and it falls and breaks. It gives you prediction.

          These are fabulous tools. A beautiful platform, To forward knowledge, ideas, wisdom. You can give one man a hammer and he will build a ship. Give another man a hammer and he will use it as a weapon. But the hammer is still the hammer. What you see is what you get.

          Earth is where you go, I think, to find out who you really are. You can find a lot of beautiful people of good will here. They love, they help, they teach and learn. They share, they make you laugh. They tell you stories and sing and dance for you. They sow pleasure moments for others. Even Hubbard admitted, you can not erase a pleasure moment. That is what makes a person truly immortal. When you create a pleasure moment for someone else. They will carry that through eternity. And you with them.

      • Path of Buddha

        Hi Oracle!
        When I become a monk in ochre robes, I will hold within me one of the last chances for a genetically pure body for Hubbard. I forgot to tell you that I developed a process on The Freewinds, approved by the C/S of course, which set up the correct mutations in my DNA. Who will ask? Will it be Miscavige finally. I will be a recluse with no communication lines. An OT8 out of tune?
        GMW

        • No, Miscavige won’t ask. I don’t get him as the curious type.

          “Recluse” is an identity. “Scientist” is an identity, so is “Monk”. You can be all three. But you may not find a group of people, being all three. But that would align with being a recluse. “An OT8 out of tune” is also an identity. But aligns with being recluse. The things is, these identities may have different purposes that conflict. “An OT8 out of tune” may inhibit the others. It implies dysfunction. Which could get in the way of the “Scientist”. You may want to organize the wardrobe so the accessories match.

  46. A general comment about scn L’s, time warps and OT8. “The more consideration of Scientology processes, the more crazier be I.” saieth Yoda

    • Hi Richard,
      … and L’s, time warps, and OT8 be not all. These only scratch the surface the force.
      LOL

      • GMW – I’ve been immersing myself in the Mooji videos. I now remind myself 50 times per day about being a timeless observer – lol

        Please embroider your ochre robes with “GMW” so you’ll be easier to recognize when all our paths cross. When they hold the Ochre Robe Convention in Ft. Lauderdale or wherever, it might be hard to spot you in that crowd.

        Richard

        P.S. If some of you folks decide to be “reclusive”, please don’t become “exclusive”. Thank you

        • Richard, another amazing non-dual teacher is Adyashanti:

          • christianscientology

            Well done Marildi for flying that non-duality banner high in the sky.

            Love
            Pip

            • I just fly the banner of truth.😀

              …as best i see it.

              I hope you have a chance to view the above – it’s the essential Adyashanti on the subject of Awakening.

              Love back,
              marildi

          • Hi Miraldi! – I scanned the CD since I prefer baby bites – laughter. On the second part at 5:00 he mentions (greatly paraphrased) that delusionary thoughts, let’s say regrets, will still come up but will be dismissed quicker. That was a benefit to me. Thanks

            He might reword some terms. A casual listening turned up rocket ship, gravitational fields and velcro mind. I realize that the questioner is familiar with this terminology. I’ll listen to some more, but for now Mooji is still hip, slick and cool for me.

            IMO the field of Quantum Spiritual Mechanics can be allowed to rest (or rest points for those so inclined) at what is isn’t and what isn’t is, which occasionally makes sense to me – laughter

            • Hi Richard!

              Glad to hear you got something from the Adyashanti interview audios. I realize now it was a steep gradient.🙂

              I would have to agree with your sentiments about Mooji, but I think Adyashanti is a great teacher too and the two of them complement each other, IMO.

              As for Adya’s term “Velcro,” the idea is that after an awakening, certain thoughts continue to arise for a while which have the power to stick to us like Velcro. These are spontaneous thoughts that occur in given situations and cause an almost immediate re-identification with the thinking pattern. It could be a judging thought, or one that makes us feel ashamed or small, angry or accusatory. But the more the awakening matures and the more we can see through them for what they are, there is less and less of this tendency. (This is almost a direct quote.)

              Regarding the rocket ship and gravitational field, I copied this from his Facebook page:

              “There’s a metaphor that I like to use to describe the journey from nonabiding to abiding awakening: that of a rocket ship. A rocket ship takes a tremendous amount of thrust and a tremendous amount of energy both to get off the ground and then to break the gravitational field as it travels through the sky and ultimately into space.

              “If there is enough fuel in the rocket and it gets far enough away from the Earth, it can eventually get beyond the gravitational field of the planet. Once the rocket is beyond the gravitational field of the Earth, the Earth no longer has the power to pull it back down.

              “As a metaphor, we can think of the egoic structure, or what I call the dream state, as the Earth. The dream state has a gravitational force; it has the tendency to pull consciousness into itself. This gravitational force is really what one is dealing with throughout the entirety of the spiritual journey.

              “Awakening is breaking free of this gravitational force. Initially, it may simply be leaving the dream state, awakening from the dream state of ‘me’ and separation and isolation. But because we’ve awakened does not mean that consciousness has gotten past the gravitational pull of the dream state. If we haven’t gone completely beyond this gravitational field, we’re going to be pulled back toward the experience of ‘me’ and the perception of separateness.

              “This gives rise to what I call the ‘I got it, I lost it’ phenomenon. People report having amazing realizations about the truth, but then the next day, the next week, the next month, or the next year they feel they have lost it. It’s like a rocket ship that left the ground, got a few miles up into the atmosphere, and then ran out of fuel—and now it’s being pulled back toward Earth.

              “Using the metaphor of the rocket ship is a way of thinking about the process of awakening. The moment of awakening itself—going from the dream state to reality—isn’t a process. It always happens spontaneously. But as I’ve said, the dissolution of the ego takes time. While the moment of awakening is instantaneous, there is a process that unfolds thereafter— the process of getting beyond the gravitational force of the dream state.”

              (The above is an excerpt from Chapter 3 of his book “The End of Your World.” http://www.slideshare.net/exopolitics/adyashanti-the-end-of-your-world )

              • Dear Miraldi – Thank you so much for your detailed reply! I was a bit concerned that Adyashanti was talking about how gravitational fields affect my thetan. (joke)
                Yes, I see that Adya and Mooji compliment each other. My general opinion at this time is that Mooji focuses on getting people Started.
                Gradients, Easy Does It and data overload apply. Thanks to yourself and others, Miraldi, I’m enjoying the train ride and looking at the scenery as I go along.
                Richard

                • Thanks, Richard. I’ve enjoyed your input too.

                  Yes, Mooji is great at assessing the reality of a new person and communicates with them accordingly. Actually, I haven’t seen him miss with anybody. I do think he appeals to people with an inclination towards a devotional path, something like what draws some people to Christianity – such as the idea of “surrendering.” Adyashanti., on the other hand, is good at answering intellectual questions and giving that type of explanation. I love how he explained what life is like after full awakening/enlightenment has been achieved. This video is short – just five minutes.😉

                  • Perfect, Miraldi – I just recently came up against myself being ok, but the rest of the wrongness of the world impinging with no way out. I might have experienced something like Adya’s experience in the past, but “forgot”

        • Path of Buddha

          GMW for you, Richard, it shall be.

  47. Path of Buddha

    Hi Marildi! (continuation)
    “One surprising thing I learned from you on this thread was that in Buddhism the soul is “nearly permanent.” I think this could account for why some people experience it as immortal.”

    Yes, this is a major point in Buddhism. Brahma, the highest God, feels like he is immortal. When his good karma runs out, he falls. Dukkha (emotional pain) is related to impermanence because there is loss. Loss is derived from impermanence. What is impermanent leads back to anatta ( no self). Thus Buddhism starts with a negative. What is impermanent is not worth owning. What arises also ceases. Consciousness has roots in ignorance. There is only motion and change. Thus there is no “doer” . Thus silence on the existence of the soul or spirit. If there is a soul, one is in agreement with permanence. If one agrees with “no soul”, then there is nothing. If there is the uncaused, it cannot be defined.
    GMW

    • Hi George!

      You wrote: “If there is the uncaused, it cannot be defined.”

      My understanding of other non-dualism teachings is that there is no “if” with regard to the existence of the uncaused, and that it is the one absolute while all else is relative.

      It makes sense that the uncaused can’t be described in words (defined) since language is dualistic. However, I believe it can be directly experienced, and the thing language can do is at least point to it. For example, the uncaused has been described (by Hubbard and others) as “awareness of awareness” – that is to say, awareness itself with no object.

      The “uncaused” has also been described as “Self” – not as an individual but a “Oneness.” And it can be directly experienced as an awareness of a reality that is beyond the physical, which by definition is finite and has limits. Since the uncaused isn’t finite, it can’t be described except to say what it isn’t – that it’s not finite. Which makes it infinite, eternal and immortal.

      What say you?🙂

      • Path of Buddha

        Hi Marildi!
        You are sharp. You do not miss anything. I pondered the word “if” for a few minutes before I wrote. I sort of knew it would catch your attention. The “if” is mine and mine alone. I decided to use the “if” because I wanted to appear less dogmatic. I do not want to beat down the language. I thought that the “if” would make me seem less fundamental. Thanks for pointing it out. The Buddha never would say “if” because it would be speculation.
        MM,
        G

        • Got it, George. Thanks for clarifying!

          You were trying to be less dogmatic while I was still being a stickler.🙂
          Anyway, I appreciated the exchange, as always.

          MM,
          M.

      • christianscientology

        Hi Marildi

        I have been following the discussion between you and George with interest and it seems to me there is still confusion between SOUL and SPIRIT.

        As you know I love what Rupert Spira has to say with regards to AWARENESS and THE AWARENESS OF AWARENESS. I am satisfied that awareness is the equivalent of SOUL but the awareness of awareness is SPIRIT. By that I mean that the awareness can fluctuate because it is in a constant state of change. Whereas the awareness of awareness is eternally AT REST. The A of A is identical person to person and is the essential quality of God – Source – The Infinite.

        I found these two video most illuminating, I think they are best viewed in order, this first
        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jLt9Yy6FIvE and then http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f4JCeJqjy14

        As I have said before I first heard about the AWARENESS of AWARENESS when I got involved with Scientology and that has stayed with me through thick and thin and is why I could never write off the work of LRH as irrelevant.

        Love
        Pip

        • Hi Pip!

          I like Rupert too, even though he gets into more significance than what appeals to me lately. It’s interesting how each of the “modern non-dualist” or Neo-Advaita teachers appeal to different personality types, or maybe stages of spiritual growth.

          I’ve found that these teachers also differ in their descriptions of soul, spirit, etc. The Buddha was probably right that discussing the soul is no more than a diversion from following one’s path. But for me, at least for a while, I found it helpful to discuss such things so that I could then look for myself. Most of the non-dualist teachers say truth has to be experienced directly, and that’s what I’m mostly focusing on these days.

          I like Adyashanti’s simple approach of two basic things: One is (in my own words, now) by means of “inquiry,” getting a reality on the true, eternal “self” as something beyond or “behind” the conditioned self or ego – which is made up of all one’s accumulated beliefs, opinions, feelings, etc.

          The other fundamental of Adyashanti’s teaching consists of taking that realization – that new reality – and applying it in life. The doingness is to simply put some space – a gap, as he calls it – between you and whatever thought or reaction arises out of the ego-mind, so as to gradually cease identifying with any of it and thus being effect of it.

          Gaining that ability is also aided by a type of meditation where there is no effort to control thoughts in any way – unlike other types of meditation. One learns to just notice them, with the purpose of gaining the ability to not respond or be affected in any way.

          In other words, the ability gained is to recognize thoughts for what they are – i.e. conditioning – and to neither attach to them nor push them away, at which time they dissolve. Over time, the “gap” between their impingement and dissolution gets smaller and smaller until finally when such thoughts occur the dissolution is basically instant. The whole point, of course, is to gain spiritual freedom – also called enlightenment.

          But again, this is my understanding in my own words.😉

        • Path of Buddha

          Hi Pip!
          One day a monk pressed the Buddha to finally answer the question on the immortality of the spirit. In fact, he asked three times and threatened to leave the order. He demanded an answer. As you know, the Buddha was silent on the issue. This is a very famous Theravadin story. The Buddha still did not answer. In another famous story, a monk insisted that the Buddha actually taught the immortality of the spirit.
          The Buddha replied that he did not teach this doctrine. Notice how the Buddha also does not say that he does not teach the immortality of the spirit. He was silent for a reason.
          Buddhism has survived for 2,600 years partly because the Buddha was silent. His basic reply was that the question of the immortality of the soul or spirit could not be answered with language. He implied that the answer would clarify when one achieved sainthood. In the state of lower being, the question of spirit or soul goes in the circle of samsara. One thing to keep in mind is also the fact that in Theravada, the world has no beginning. It is in complete contradiction to Scientology “Before the beginning was Cause”.
          In actual fact, when confronted with the question at other times, Buddha told monks to get under a tree and meditate on the breath.
          Since I am not a saint, I need to pass on the issue of soul and spirit.
          Buddhism starts with the great negative – anatta. It simply means that the world as we know it is not true essence or worthy of ownership. This clears away the junk and allows the meditation (prayer) to sink in. Buddha said a thousand times that he only taught the end of emotional pain. He never said he taught the existence or non-existence of soul or spirit.

          Much Metta,
          GMW

  48. My behavior lately. I am sorry

    I was recently smacked in the mouth 2 times and I lost a front tooth.

    i love you all. I know it’s just MEST

    but it still has an impact.

    • Beaver’s teeth regrow. You’re stuck with a dentist. I like the video, kind of old time vaudeville. The follow up video was also cool – party time!

    • Hey Cat daddy – Here’s an anecdote you might like.

      My friend Lou and I were on holiday and in a pub in London. Lou had been stationed there after a tour of duty on an aircraft carrier and had made many friends.

      A couple of Irish guys were spoiling for a fight with us. Lou walked over to one of his friends, a merchant seaman who was a gangling 6 feet 6 inch fellow with long hair and a grubby beard. He walked over and gently placed his long arms around their shoulders and asked “Are you gents having a problem with my mates?”

      I don’t recall if they finished their Guinness before they split.

      • Actually, as The Oracle mentions above, pleasure moments don’t erase. They apparently carry forward without effort.

        I now remember that Lou and I were sitting at a raised up round pub table with the two dudes. (Lou and I originally thought we were going to have a pleasant conversation with them.) Right after the encounter with Colin, was his name, they quietly retreated to the long bar. A few minutes later I looked over my shoulder to where they had been sitting and they were gone. Both of their mugs still had beer in them. That struck me since at that time I never would have walked away from a mug of beer that wasn’t empty! I guess their encounter with Colin had given them a bit of acid reflux – laughter!

        I asked Lou what he had said to Colin. Lou said when he started to mention what was going on, Colin immediately responded “I’ll take care of it, mate!” and marched right over!

  49. It seems inherent in life to avoid pain and reach for pleasure. Is that not a form of polarisation?

    On my shelf are Seligmann’s book on Learned Helplessness as well as his book on Authentic Happiness. He has now published Learned Optimism. They represent several aspects of the extremes of disempowerment vs empowerment. From my desk, I have access to news sites and blogs bringing a flurry of perspectives and information from around the world. You can spend hours trying to determine what might be true behind what is said and what is left unsaid. To what end, really?

    The media have the task of bringing issues to public attention, not necessarily of providing solutions. Think tanks and policymakers attempt to redress some of the issues. That neither are perfect is apparent, and that interest groups pursue their own agendas to the expense of others can also be seen.

    However, in reading about the world’s problems from my desk I feel above all powerless to do anything about them (learned helplessness). I can become aware of my own polarising thoughts and how I respond to polarising rhetoric. Does it change anything other than my own experience?

    Stories I read or watch for entertainment often appear to be about transformation, which itself is polarising or dualistic – from sad to happy, miserly to charitable, sinful to saintly. Inherent, as I said above.

    What solutions would you suggest?

    • The positive thing, is that you are curious.

      “It seems inherent in life to avoid pain and reach for pleasure. Is that not a form of polarisation?”

      And you find many people are seeking pain, for themselves and/or others. And avoiding pleasure as if it were the Bubonic Plague. And, simple animals can manage to avoid pain and seek pleasure. We are in a universe of NATURE. It is NATURAL to avoid pain and seek pleasure.

      It is Supernatural, (of a manifestation, person or event attributed to some force beyond scientific understanding or the laws of nature. Manifestations or events considered to be of supernatural origin, such as ghosts.) to doubt. Because then you get into, “What is natural for a supernatural, in a natural universe”?

      Let’s say you are an American accustomed to eating with utensils. You visit a foreign country where the people are using chop sticks. You think, “This is not natural.” Or you think, “This seems more natural, the wood feels better on my teeth than sterling.” Or you think, “These people are uncivilized.” Whatever you think, this is nature where you are.

      It does not make you supernatural to be repelled by chopsticks and prefer sterling. But if you can not adapt to using chopsticks, it is easier to believe you are the supernatural in the mix, than to think you can not master a new skill which means survival to those people. You find systems built with “upper echelons” of societies, where useful natural skills are relegated to the “less enlightened and less civilized”. Yet the upper echelons, wholly depend upon the skills of the lowers to survive.

      I think Hubbard described this system as “Thetan mind body”. Laughter!

      What I have found that contributes to the despair of many “enlightened” that are “in full command of the super natural”, is that when they have to wash some dishes or serve someone “less than they”, and of “lower altitude”, they find they are lacking in essential skills for survival. And they are largely dependent upon the ones putting shelter over their head, providing them fuel and fool, transportation, etc etc.. This really violates their reality.

      I personally think there are only two types of people.

      1. I am the most important.
      2. You are the most important.

      The first type doesn’t think anyone else is really worth helping. Even if they are working as an auditor.

      The second type you find is service industries, farmers, wait staff, cleaners, servers, etc etc. People than can think of someone else’s wants and needs, and put them above their own.

      The meek do inherit the Earth, they control everything, in reality. Down to what is on your dinner plate.

      My advice? Just put someone else’s happiness , wants and needs, above your own. Once you work it on that flow, where you can see how it easy to make someone else happy, you will get better at keeping yourself happy. You may even find what makes you happy, is making others happy.

      • My father once told me that ‘The meek will inherit the earth.’, or ‘Blessed are the meek.’ is actually a mis-translation. He said it was meant to be ‘The humble’;. Similar, but not the same.
        Do you or anyone else know if this is correct? Perhaps someone knows the origins of these phrases.
        Mark

        • It is the third verse of the Sermon on the Mount, and also third of what are known as the Beatitudes. In the King James Version of the Bible the text reads: Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth. Matthew 5:5

          One definition of meek is: “Enduring injury with patience and without resentment.” Some synonyms are: down-to-earth, lowly, humble, modest, unassuming, unpretentious.

          Origin of meek
          Middle English, of Scandinavian origin; akin to Old Norse mjūkr gentle; akin to Welsh esmwyth soft. In Old Norse, “gentle” implies having grace.
          To live and die with grace. Grace: b archaic : mercy, pardon. : a controlled, polite, and pleasant way of behaving.

          • Thank you much Miss Oracle.
            My Father had meant that the King James version was itself a mis translation. That the word meek, in normal usage implies weakness, smallness, whereas the word humble does not carry that thought.

            This very question can imply that I think original writings of any kind are correct and that relays and translations are wrong. Such is sometimes the case but the original is often wrong as well. In any case, I like humble in that context better than meek. My opinion.
            Mark

      • “only two types of people” is too much of a generality. It puts a guilt trip on my poor befuddled soul.

        • There are only two types of people. Those that have socks on right now, and those that don’t. There are only two types of people. Those that are 5 foot 6 or below, and those that are over 5 foot 6.
          Any ‘two types of people’ analogy is pretty much worthless. Even something along the line of those over 2.0 and those below 2.0. Those who cheat and those who don’t. Etc, etc.

          Everything is fluid and changing. What point is there in life if things are not changing, moving occurring. In fact, there are only two types of people. Those who embrace change and activity and those who don’t.
          Mark

        • Give and get. What else is there in all of social intercourse? It may sound too simple, but when you ask yourself, “What is this person getting out of this”? “What is this person actually giving?” It can be a severe reality adjustment.

          Let’s say you pay someone 10K to come install 100 spinklers. The person arrives, insists firstly that you sit through 50 hours of his personal lectures about the theory behind sprinklers. You didn’t even pay for that shit or ask for it. But,this is so you can “track with him”. (his wants and needs). You are deducted 5K for this education. Then,he decides what he should be doing is coaching you on pest control and announced that is what he will do instead.

          You disagree, and steer him back on course to put in some sprinklers. But he mentions then that he needs to stay in your Casita for seven months and he is suffering from high blood pressure. You take him to medical specialist, get him checked out, move him into your casita, cook for him three meals a day, do his laundry, fold his clothes. You get him on a “wellness program”. He lasts a day.

          He says he needs special excercise, so you buy him a membership at an aquatic center and give him the keys to your car so he can get there. He never goes.

          This guy is still making you listen to his personal lectures about landscaping instead of putting in some fkn sprinklers. He is only happy when you sit and stare at him and listen to him. He does not want to hear you. And he is talking instead of actually working.

          Two months go by and this guy has sponged off you unmercifully. He then bitches that your yard is crap and could not possibly even grow weeds. That you do not have the power to help a dying animal if you found one on your property. You are down 10K and he installed 12 sprinklers so far. He says your budget has been used up, time to cut another check.

          You can count right? If you can’t do anything else you can count right? What did you give, what did you get? You paid 10K for 12 sprinklers. You got told your goals were unattainable. And that you are S.P.. Somewhere in the mix he even confesses he can not fix sprinklers before he asks for the next check.

          You set aside 100K for landscaping, are you really going to cut another check to this scammy spongy song and dance vendor?

          You might think it sounds too simple. But it is a workable system. Sometimes the only way to win is to stop loosing. When you pay someone they should be able to GIVE you something. If you pay them and they use your energy to only GET, you have a virus on your hands.

          And I bring this up here because there are affinity scammers in the Scientology theater. It starts with David Miscavige but it has bled all over the “Freezone / Independent movement”.

          “Affinity fraud is a form of investment fraud in which the fraudster preys upon members of identifiable groups, such as religious or ethnic communities, language minorities, the elderly, or professional groups.”

          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affinity_fraud

          Hubbard said, ( and i agree) , “You can therefore know your enemies by those who seek to knock out any part of your:

          a. Power
          b. Authority
          c. Personnel
          d. Wealth
          e. Property.

          LRH”

          He is saying, anyone who runs a “Can’t have” on you.

          You can bypass all the tech on suppressives and just look for anyone that runs a can’t have on you. This is what suppressives do. It is very cut and dry.

          So, breaking down people into two categories, give and get, is highly beneficial.

          I know of someone out here right now that was in the Freezone movement that took a client, for tens of thousands of dollars, bought a new home! The client is sitting in a federal prison sentenced to 2030 for scamming investors. He is paying for the home. All he got were words and praise about what a superman he was.

          I got into Scientology, paid 200.00 for HQS, the exchange was exchange in abundance. Paid 5K to go clear, exchange in abundance. Went clear, got through expanded grades and a drug rundown.

          Paid over 40K to get two kids through a life repair in the Indie movement, they have only been traumatized.(Except for auditing by Trey Lotz or Pat Krenik) It would be worse if I took them to a Church. These are kids that asked me for auditing. I never mentioned it.

          How bad do you have to be to run a can’t have on someone begging for auditing? You have to be a fkn S.P.. When the P.C, is sitting in front of you, and the invoice is covered, and you are being paid 100.00 an hour to deliver and you can’t even mange that, you are an affinity scammer.

          You think that ” give and get” is too simple, vague and a generality?

          • P.S. Back in “the day”, when I first got involved in Scientology, everyone in the org was actually doing something. Something important for someone else. The Scientology culture has morphed into a culture of “being”. People are just “being” something. A staff member, an OT, a Sea Org member, something, but it is all about being something.

            You walk onto the Flag base, and this may take a while to digest, but you will see staff everywhere. What are they actually doing? What are they having? You’ll find some beggars begging. Maybe one out 400 is auditing someone. What the hell is everyone else doing? What are they giving anyone? Beingness, attitude, criticism threats or pressure. You have to go to the galley to find someone actually giving someone something, food. On the “be do have” cycle, doing is relegated to the rpfers, as punishment. What does the MAA do but judge others from his beingness as a Scientologist?

            In the Scientology culture, all of your value begins and ends with you “being” a Scientologist. Your value is placed on your beingness all the way and what beingness you assume in that theater. You can “be” a Scientologist your entire life and never do anything for anyone, and you will still have value. You will be considered more valuable as a Scientologist than an open heart surgeon.

            And the minute you stop “being” a Scientologist, you become a virus to those people. You are judged all the way on your beingness.

            At the end of the day, what do you walk away from a Scientology Organization with? Bigger brighter better clearer beingness? They are selling improved beingness.

            You leave the Org and everyone else is focused on doingness and havingness, which is considered ab berated and worthless. But the Scientologist, his havingness is all in his beingness. His doingness is mainly towards his beingness. What he is going to be when he is OT blahdy blah. How he is going to have the perfect beingness some day. I mean, if you can get him out of the Org.

            Most people set aside a few hours on Sunday to ponder improved beingness.

            How do you think Miscavige gets all of his money? He sells beingness, “IAS” beingness, “Patron” beingness. He gets by himself because why? He is “COB”. It’s his beingness.

          • And all of your failures in the Scientology community are connected to your beingness. For “being” out ethics, or entheta or pts or low toned, or selfish or reasonable or “not being” tone 40, upstat, dedicated or whatever. It has become a beingness culture. And the anti Scientologists attack for “being” a Scientologist. But it is still an assault on beingness.

            What can you get from Scientology? Knowledge enough to change your beingness and/or someone else’s beingness. But you really have to have some issues with beingness to think you need to fix the whole planet’s beingness before you can sleep at night. I mean, it really has to be an issue.

            And the entire thrust of the Scientology movement right now is on “being” “ideal”. “Golden age”. You can’t actuallly do anything right now for anyone if you do not work in an “Ideal” Org and you are not “certified” as a golden ager. And nobody is really “being” uptone enough or ethical enough to clear the planet. It’s all about failed beingness.

            Even with the ethics tech, you are told you are not “being” ethical enough and sold the ethics courses.

            You can always find a way to assault someone else’s beingness.

            So yes, it is important to have a clue about what you are really giving and getting. Because if you plan on giving doingness, and havingness, in exchange for someone else’s beingness, you should be aware of your entertainment expenses.

            • And truth is, when I first got involved in Scientology, and when it was booming, everyone there really did consider it a form of entertainment. People went to the Org to have a good time, have some good company, some good talks. Nobody gave a hoot about the OT levels. Dianetics was the big interest. Co auditing. ARC straightwire was big. You could pull someone off the street and run them on a grade to finish a practical on a check sheet. The “beingness” of the Org, was dabbling in the occult.Exploring socially. Nobody cared about their beingness, they cared about knowingness. There was not the goal to “be” a planetary red cross ambulance movement to alter the beingness of every man woman and child on the planet and put their ethics in. The group turned into a radical assault on beingness force “through out the galaxy”. And the people it churned out under that banner are totally introverted into beingness and evaluation and devaluation of other people’s beingness. Jesus when you can’t be Nicole Kidman and run with that herd, that’s a problem.

              What does Tom Cruise for a living? He mocks up beingness. That is what actors do. Who is the most valuable important special ecial person in Scientology after COB? Tom, because of his beingness. Not because the guy makes clears.

              And you look at the beingness of those people, Jenny Linson in LAX, the squirrel busters, the ones that come to hate, and you know, you have to ask yourself what kind of beingness did these people really go for and what did they get? What are they being? Cops, domestic terrorists, top secret intelligence cia fbi types, protesters, haters, soldiers, criminals, scam artists, con men, juvenile delinquents in their 60’s, liars, hustlers, on and on and you have to ask yourself if we need more of these. And you see the Orgs are empty. The beingness is scary and repelling. It is not selling.

              So, Miscavige switches to a “status” bridge. “Move up in status”. Rank. “O.K., fk the beingness, that can not be fixed,it is not very attractive to the average consumer, so we will deny it, deny deny deny,…” I mean, at the end of the day these people pay for a beingness they have to hide or suppress. And if someone leaves the fold, and shows this beingness outside of the fold, they are declared suppressive. You are not actually supposed to share this beingness with anyone outside of the fold. Your super duper elite Scientology beingness. And if you do, the Church will pretend that they don’t know you. The “beingness” is supposed to be kept top secret. So you know, you get a person suppressing himself unless he is in the Org. And yeah, he feels better at the Org. He can turn the Scientologist loose there.

      • Thanks you for posting that delightful clip. Very funny and uplifting!

        Yes, I am curious, ravenously so it seems. Sometimes I wish I could have a chat with Watson, the AI or algorithm Georg has mentioned, and ask it to sift through millions of documents and discussions about spirituality to answer some of my questions – mostly because I have so many questions popping up in conversations about the subject. Maybe also ask it how humanity can accelerate its improvement of living conditions in general. Who knows, the answers might provide interesting and unusual lines of thought to pursue.

        I think there’s more to happiness (at least for me) than whether I consider someone worth helping. I’ve seen my parents sacrifice themselves in the Sea Org, but that happiness was fleeting. I’ve done the same on a much smaller scale. Now I believe I need a foundation from which to help without giving myself up in the process. But perhaps I misunderstood what you meant?

        The gentle have the earth, and none of us can live without another’s contribution. So in that way, the upper echelons have it too.

    • Letting go – Are you alone in a house trying to figure everything out from books? Mooji and I’m sure other teachers mentioned here approach your questions. At least the videos have a voice and a face which allows human expression. Personally, I jump around on the Mooji videos rather than plowing through a whole satsung, stopping where I find something which captures my attention or need. The Unitarian Universalists mentioned on a recent Mike Rinder topic apparently welcome any practice or religion to participate without a fixed agenda. You might find someone interested in discussion.

      “Does it change anything other than my own experience?” I also hit that one and found some answers/viewpoints in the videos. Best to let the teachers explain.

      Richard

      • Yes, I’m more or less alone trying to figure everything out from books, youtube videos and my own experience. Lately I seem to be more curious about what I am actually experiencing than a teacher’s interpretation of it (meaning, more inclined to feel what’s happening within me than distract myself with teachings). However, it is never a linear process, never only teachers or only experiencing/witnessing. The two interrelate and are interdependent all the time.

        I’ve watched some videos from Mooji, quite a lot from Adyashanti and also from Lisa Cairns, who’s chaotic and unstructured approach I seem to especially enjoy.

        For now I’ve decided I want to see for myself, rather than be told about it. Move beyond doctrine to experience. Funnily enough, I suddenly feel like I’m having glimpses of cause and effect. Nothing unusual, just observing myself thinking an upsetting thought and then feeling how that makes the body feel bad and watching it spiral from there. Instant karma.

        By doctrine I mean for example agreeing with a teaching that says you mustn’t judge people. Then you go read a blog and start judging (“How can they be so blind??”). Then you try to forcibly stop the judging and push it down to comply with the doctrine. There’s action, but no understanding why one may be judging, really. By glimpsing cause and effect I mean I can now follow the judging back to where it may have come from. Feel the rage rising up prior to passing judgement when reading the blog, feel the pain preceding that rage triggered by a description on the blog, feel the pain of the trauma from way back when that preceded the rage and sit with it.

        No need for me right now to agree “there’s no one here”, as is advocated in non-duality. I want to know for myself, despite the obvious paradox.

        • Hi Letting go – That’s very nice sharing above to myself and The Oracle. Thank you. I thought you might be a bit despondent, but that’s not the case.
          Picking up on “and then feeling how that makes the body feel . . .” After I blew scn in LA in 1983, I hooked up with a gal who had been in a cult called The Center for Feeling Therapy. Their thing was that in order to find Truth, you needed to dig down deep into your “gut” to experience your true feelings, ie. Truth. So an entire (small) cult grew up around the exploration of feelings. Of course the head magoo of that cult decided who could sleep with who, who could marry who, etc. etc. etc. – laughter!

  50. For Path of Buddha: Hey there, I bought your book from Amazon, arrived today and I got to page 86 and almost feel off my chair!

    I am not sure I am getting the message correctly. It would explain a LOT of conflict in the Scientology culture though along the lines of the second dynamic. You mention a tape you came in possession of a Hubbard lecture given in 1954, but say this lecture was never made available in public courses.

    Is there a title to the tape, date, or has it since vanished off the radar? If it was only made available to Sea Org staff it would explain a lot about this culture they have created that is very anti second dynamic. Was it part of a 1954 lecture series, where only this tape was omitted from publication? I didn’t want to break it down here as a why for anything unless I was able to hear it for myself. You say in the book, the tape was kept hidden.

    Many things hidden or squashed in the Church are obtainable now out here. I have course packs with full check sheets of courses available in the 1970’s that nobody in the Church now has ever heard of. People find things in their attics and cellars, old storage sheds, they sell them on Ebay or Craig’s list. I may be able to find the tape if you are still certain it was squashed someplace, maybe you even still have it?

    • Path of Buddha

      Hi Oracle!
      Great to hear about that old tape again. I had totally forgotten it. The actual tape was partially destroyed in Hurricane Georges which brushed Tampa Bay about 15 years ago. I tried to replay it at the University of South Florida in 2014 but it failed. The ink on the box was washed away also. The tape was very short and I will get into the details. My memory of it is good.
      The expanded story is as follows. In the !980’s I spent a lot of time at Flag. I just could not get the truth about Scientology. I asked permission to go into the tape library and listen to whatever I liked. They were very short of money at the time and said I could purchase any tape for $50. I bought about 12 tapes on reel to reel on various subjects over a six month period. There was a tape titled “Second Dynamic”.
      I listened to it and fell off my chair. In the tape Hubbard mocks up this monster like voice and says “The second dynamic IS DEAAATH!”. Now there was another tape which I bought in which Hubbard says that the moment of orgasm is death. I had bought that one also. That tape seemed OK because I had read about that before. The first tape was so extreme I played it for my wife to see what she would conclude. Since we were both into the tech, we both concluded that Hubbard meant what he said. “The 2D is death”. He did not say orgasm is death in this tape. I thought that Hubbard had a lot of problems with “free love and sex” in the orgs and missions. He was trying to put fear in the staff. But anyway I had purchased the 2D tapes that the church published with the cute family on the cover. This was before OT 8 was released.
      We got out of Scientology and this nutty tape was a factor.
      I have discussed this topic with many old friends and we reached the agreement that Hubbard was not accurate in his statements. The church publishes what they want the public to hear. You get the same thing in OT8 when the church wont talk about the anti-Christ bulletin. In the 80’s I was concerned about every word Hubbard said and concluded he was trying to run a control trip. What easier way than to say the 2D is death and only I have the keys to the mystery.
      GMW

      • singanddanceall

        that’s interesting, and thanks. BTW OT8 am I just like extension that Mosey is,

        I wonder if you and Oracle have read the correspondence 1949/50 between Hubbard & Heinlein and between Campbell & Heinlein, These are actual letters between those guys just prior to the release of Dianetics. It costs a few bucks to read, since they are copyrighted I cannot post those letters, you’ll have to spend the money to read them.

        History, man, history to observe in letters.

        Here is the website and files to read:

        http://heinleinarchives.net/upload/index.php?_a=viewProd&productId=893

        http://heinleinarchives.net/upload/index.php?_a=viewProd&productId=882

        Truth Revealed is at those letters, for all to see.

        • Path of Buddha

          Thanks singanddance,
          I tried to download the documents but had trouble. It seems the website is hanging up.
          GMW

        • Thanks. I went there and the site takes some effort to navigate, but communicates the transcripts will be mailed to me hard copy. I did not see any download options myself. Very curious.

          The “truth revealed” in Scientology has been there all along. As soon as someone is given a job there, or a duty or responsibility, they magically recover from whatever has been ailing them, and cease to need any help for their mental problems. The people that work there have no interest in Scientology.

          There are farmers that wake at 4:30 a.m. and head out to the fields to put food on the tables and a roof over their children’s heads.

          I’ve had it with the idle slothful spoiled rude lazy unproductive self important class that had time to wander in and out of cults, drugs, gypsy tents,opium dens, card reader tents and whine about how someone didn’t wave a magic wand and fix it all for them.

          I had to pull myself out the underbelly of existence with out the comfort of thinking somebody owed it to me to provide for me or make me happy. It disgusts me that people with every opportunity to make a life for themselves set themselves up to wallow in misery and attack common people.

          When the only problem you have is what is in your head or how you feel, you are part of the “idle rich” even if you only have two nickles to rub together. Get over yourself, get a real problem, care about someone else or assume some responsibility somewhere.

          The bawl babies in America need to get out and see what a real problem is for some people. Self importance will destroy any civilization or group. Get over yourself and you will get over your problems.

          When you have time in your calendar for scream therapy, while children in this world go hungry, you, are your biggest problem.

          Truth is a very personal thing. And since most of social intercourse is built on lies, truth revealed can be a very big secret you can sell for the price of a home for a family.

          Most people close to the Earth, would not even be able to think with the fact that truth is so hard to come by, you have to pay for some of it. They understand truth every day. The sun rises, crosses, sets. People get hungry. Heat is a force.Effort can be painful and rewarding. Duty is honor, not donations. Service and ability is honor, not fame or status.

          I can count many people that have been able to walk through the Scientology experience with grace and honor.

          Let me provide for the culture of appreciation for a moment.

          Rick Alexander
          Minty Alexander
          Clair Reppen
          Milt Wolfe
          Liz Astruppguard
          Ronnie Miscavige
          Alan Hubbard
          Ken Urquhart
          Trey Lotz
          Gary Webber
          Marty Rathbun
          Leticia Pizzi
          Doc Cavalier
          Karen De La Carrierre
          Sinar Parman
          Mike Rinder
          Issac Hayes
          Phil Speckler
          Mimi Rogers
          Claudio Lugli
          Franco Baggio
          Massimo Cavadenti
          Roberto Tarabini
          Felipe Hil
          Nate Jessup
          David Simon
          Bennet Webber
          Nina Winters
          Avnar Golan
          Steve Workman
          Simon Hogarth
          Ivan Obolensky
          Charles Purcell
          Nancy Walcott
          Pat Krenick
          Ray Kenick
          William “Bill” Brayton
          Randy Parsons
          Equin Rhodes

          You do not read about these people and if I had several days I could list out many more. A lot of people that got involved with Scientology were very intelligent and compassionate people. People that really cared about the people in front of them. Nobody is talking about them in the media. It does not mean they did not or do not exist.

          At the end of the day it does not matter the path you walk, but if you can walk it with honor , grace and good will. There are people out here that gathered chicken shit and figured out how to grow food better from it.

          Some people can not be lifted with mouth to mouth resuscitation. Hand them chicken shit and they toss it away.

          And there is this survivor’s guilt people run on you if you made the best of things that is never ending.

          And I’m like, Fk you, I owe nobody an apology for surviving and profiting from having lived. I survive, that is what I do. Not only that, but when I invest I profit. Now I gotta apologize to you? Head south Mfkr but leave me off that train. I’m a bail out case. If I have to apologize to you for winning, that makes me a sorry mfkr and that is not my goal.

        • Path of Buddha

          singanddanceall,
          I remember reading pulp fiction in the 1960’s from old pamphlets probably printed in the 1950’s. In fact, I recall reading a specific story about beings in other dimensions in outer space. I don’t recall specific authors.
          One of my meditation themes for the last six months has been – “high imagination by conceit/conceit by high imagination.” I look forward to reading these links.
          GMW

          • singanddanceall

            well, it’s not pulp fiction in those letters between Heinlein & Hubbard and between Heinlein & Campbell.

            I’m just providing some history of Dianetics that may be unknown. The link is of actual scanned letters provided in PDF format.

            I guess all I am saying here is, all I’m saying is just check out the actual correspond.

            Then, tell me what you think. That’s all.

      • Thanks for clarifying that George. I was curious if he was saying to a lecture audience in 1954, that he had unhandled engrams. It would seem he had some attitudes, pain, emotion and sensation that were cutting across his dynamics. Laughter!

        A div 6 reg would have picked up those comments as a “ruin”, and explained how it was ruining his life. How Scientology could handle that.

        This is what I mean by Hubbard’s different voices. Still have no idea who wrote the pain and sex bulletin. The fear of perfume bulletin.

        Anyone in the Sea Org right now could need need a fear of sex rundown, a fear of children rundown, on top of the fear of people rundown. A fear of pregnancy rundown, a fear of CMO rundown, a fear of Int Execs rundown, a fear of P.C.’s rundown. A fear of reporters rundown, a fear of F.B.I. rundown.

        The public could probably use a fear of M.A.A. rundown, a fear of psychiatrists rundown, a fear of registrars rundown. A fear of status rundown. A fear of wogs rundown.

        Some people out here could use a fear of OSA rundown, a fear of Scientologists rundown. A fear of inner galactic police rundown.

        Laughter!

        • Path of Buddha

          Laughter,
          Hubbard made statements and more statements. On one of these tapes he mentioned that he had a connection with Gloria Swanson. One of her famous lines is: “I am big; it’s the pictures that got small”. I can see some Hubbard in that one so maybe he did have a connection with her. But I will suggest that we need a fear of pictures rundown also.

          • Anderson Cooper is Gloria Swanson’s son. Lovely P.R. to go on national television in front of Anderson Cooper’s fans on his show, and attack him for being “rude”. (X wives club). Jenny Linson breeding enemies for Scientology while attacking others and accusing them of being suppressives . She has been parked in an enemy condition for so long it is her “normal”. Anyway……..she’s not alone.

            So, back to the tape. In your book you mention this tape lecture was in 1954. Was it part of some series later published? Like, a congress where this tape was deleted? Can you remember the name of the tape?

            • Path of Buddha

              I think that the name of the tape is “Death”. I need to get the date for you.
              He talks about the death of a dear staff member.
              This particular tape was not damaged in the hurricane. I have it somewhere in deep, deep storage. He also mentions a lot about homosexuality in it.

              I think that Anderson Cooper is the son of Gloria Vanderbilt.

              Much Metta,
              G

              • Thanks George! Yes, you are right, Gloria Vanderbuilt. Thanks for the correction.

                • Path of Buddha

                  Hi Oracle,
                  I got into deep, deep storage.

                  The tape which escaped Hurricane Georges is:
                  THE RESOLUTION OF THE SECOND DYNAMIC – CASE LEVEL V, LECTURE 3, PART I
                  5209C23A T88 Supp
                  BLANKETING – EXTERIORIZATION,
                  LECTURE 3, PART I
                  5209C23B T88 Supp

                  The under water tape is
                  DEATH
                  THE ANATOMY OF SLEEP

                  All other information washed away.

                  Much Metta,
                  George

  51. Here are some idle thoughts inspired by this post and Marty’s blog.

    I’ve become quite knowledge about Quantum Spirituality by reading the comments and my meditations are already up to four or five minutes.

    The “Spiritual Equation of Everything” be damned. As Stephen Hawking once wrote “Heaven is a fairy tale.”

    I’ve greatly enhanced my critical thinking facilities since deprogramming myself from Scientology. I’m quite joyful with my newly found cynicism.

    Many people here have opened up their thoughts for public inspection. I am the Borg! You will be assimilated!

    • Bring it on Richard! I had the fear of Borg rundown. Laughter!

      • Your thought patterns have been assimilated. GIGO is in progress.

        • Hi Oracle – Here’s a follow up. (know that I’ve been your friend right from the start of having chats with you on Mike and Marty’s blogs)

          All great thinkers would welcome critics, right? I notice from the other blogs that you already have three or four. joke

          Above, Path of Buddha mentions high imagination by conceit/conceit by high imagination. I’m working on it.

          My birthday is coming up so I ordered Texas Tropics as a gift to myself.

          I am retired and have adequate food, clothing and shelter. Since watching Going Clear I’ve been down the rabbit hole of “self discovery”. Does that make me a dilettante of life?

          Many thanks below to MarkNR for his very gracious replies.

          • Oh, nice birthday gift! You will love the book!

            I’m not expert on imagination to be honest. I am not really the artistic or creative type. I like to move stuff around. The stuff in my head too. I like to shift that around into new places. That probably makes me the dilettante. I like being a dilettante, able to do a little bit of everything. I don’t have a problem with that, within myself. Hubbard seemed to have a problem with that. I just think of it as multi tasking. Well, he got rich and famous and me, just notorious. But I don’t have goals to change people.

            Change and Help get intertwined in the Scientology arena in a way that made me mistrusting. “He’s just not up to need of change” I saw as a ser fac. You can’t help someone and let them be who they are? So you have to shape shift people to help them? Change the person so the Scientology works?

            They do not tell you, “We want to change you”. They say, “We want to help you.” If you have to change someone to help them, O.K. maybe you have to get someone off drugs if he is in a bad way with them before you can do anything else. Or you have to take a bullet from a man in the hospital , before he can go back to work. But with your average person off the street to find out something about Scientology? Every failure to get someone interested is always the same. “He isn’t up to need of change”. Like if someone is alright with themselves it’s an outpoint. I was always alright with myself and the auditing worked for me. When someone leaves the Church or staff you never hear anyone say, “He came up to need of change”.

            Conversation is good for self discovery. So is reading. I would say you are on a good path. Finding out, and knowing, are rewards for living.

      • I woke up this morning with a new perspective. Probably 95% of the population thinks that engaging in a process of self discovery is a pile of crap. They go to a church, synagogue or mosque once in a while and feel that’s good enough. There are enough people in the world with good intentions that things get done.

        I’m free to pick and choose my own noble cause or causes. As Path of Buddha mentions above, 2,600 years ago there was a period of calm upon the land. They took advantage of it. I’m not expecting to radiate love, just the more I like myself, the more I’ll like you, you and you.

  52. Path of Buddha

    Richard wrote:

    “I’m quite joyful with my newly found cynicism.”

    That’s great – joy and cynicism.
    You can call that right view.

    GMW

    • Laughter – I was being facetious. But would not a newly deprogrammed Scientologist be cynical about any suggested path to “Total Freedom” under any name?

      Anyhow it brings up a point. A while back I was fretting about a stupid or incomprehensible post I’d made. I suddenly got a clear visual that my post was just a tiny thought on a tiny corner of a tiny planet in a great big universe. At least it made me feel ok about that one – laughter

      • Path of Buddha

        “But would not a newly deprogrammed Scientologist be cynical about any suggested path to “Total Freedom” under any name?”

        Yes

  53. Interesting thing lately.
    My wife had heart surgery last week. She’s doing very well. I had a lot of waiting in the hospital during the diagnosis, surgery, and recovery. I noticed that I got a little irritated from all the down time, watching TV, and rest time. Waiting, waiting, passing time.
    I haven’t been irritated in several years. I haven’t been angry at anyone in quite a few years. It reminded me of times I had been irritated earlier in my life. Curious. I TR-O ed the feeling and it quickly subsided but I did not immediately see the original source. I knew the emotion could possibly hinder my ability to help my wife and keep me a bit out of present time at a time when I really needed to be all here.
    It also irritated me that I hadn’t seen the plaque in her artery BEFORE it became sclerosis rather than exposing itself through chest pain. “Mark, if you’re so damn smart, why didn’t you see this coming.” Well, I just didn’t look. Then necessity level hit me in the face. Fortunately, I did see the delicate portion of the artery and mention it to the surgeon. He was able to use a different method to attach that portion of the vessel and get an acceptable connection.
    Once she got home and was napping, I looked for the source of the irritation. I found it.
    Something important needed doing NOW and I couldn’t, or failed to do something about it. There were several related items, such as being prevented from doing something about it, doing the wrong thing, refusing to do something, etc., etc.
    The whole moral of the story is that when you see something in yourself as a fault or shortcoming, there IS a SOURCE that can be found and resolved. Resolving a fault or shortcoming is a good thing, it improves life. I don’t get irritated at waiting or with failing to help. I am one step closer to my goal of being able to see and do, without vias, ridges, and negative thoughts which keep me from being able to recognize a needed action and immediately doing it. Knowing is senior to action. Action is senior to thinking. Thinking is senior to feeling. This may sound crude or simplistic, but when it really sinks in, it becomes much more useful.
    Many on this site were instrumental in this and other realizations. I truly want to thank you all.
    By the way, Her heart vessels are healing well. She feels like s#*t, but better than yesterday and better than the day before. Her GE is straightened out and now doing it’s job. She got home 4 days after her bypass and is happy about that.
    I love you all. Thanks.
    Mark

    • Path of Buddha

      Hi MarkNR,
      Thanks for sharing. I wish your wife welcome to the “zipper club”.
      I had my double bypass in 1999. Glad to hear that she is doing well.
      Much Metta to both of you.
      GMW

      • Thank you much, George.
        Concern and well wishes DO have an influence and we appreciate yours. She has had no infections or temperature problems. I’m keeping her high toned and doing her breathing exercises and walking. She does love butter (as do I) and all things fried, but we’ll come through it. Organic butter is in the house, mixed greens salads are on the table. That’s the easy part, adjusting her body’s purposes will take some time. It’s going well.
        ARCL, Mark

        • Path of Buddha

          You are welcome, Mark

          My wife took care of me after my heart operation. We followed Ornish for a few years. After I had enough of him, we moved into high powered “green drinks” made from greens like kale and collards from our organic garden. These drinks are difficult to make since they require a high-powered machine which we have. These drinks are then laced with protein, fruit and other nutrients from the sea. We were strict vegetarians for the first ten years of Buddhist life. However, after much consultation with monks and reading of Pali scripture, we have included some meat in our diet. The Buddha ate meat when it was offered to him and not killed for him. He could eat left-overs. So we consume a little meat at times. Best wishes to your wife for a speedy recovery. The body has remarkable healing ability. In my case, I was told that the blood flow found the optimal arterial passage after the surgery. I try to keep active at the age of 70. I am demolishing a wooden house swinging a sledge and lifting 65 pound blocks for 6 hours or more a day. I have not had a single back problem because I know how to lift.
          Much Metta,
          George

    • Hey there Mark, glad to hear of that amazing recovery! I sat with my brother through his bypass a few years ago and I understand the stress and concern. It isn’t easy to watch someone you love suffer. But he is up and running around and says he never felt better. It turned out to be a new beginning for him. We are living in good times for fate management!

      Sounds like you came away from the experience with new insight as well.

      Love to you both.

      • Thank you, Miss Oracle.
        Yes it can be very stressful if allowed to be. We lowered each others stress by being together through this experience. Love is a very powerful healer. Now that the primary danger is past, it has become a project, attacking the problem from an uptone viewpoint. That makes a huge difference.

        Yes, my viewpoint has improved. I had accumulated some arrogance, thinking that I had handled irritation and would see any significant problem coming my way. Wrong. I don’t see what I’m not looking for, and irritation can have many sources. But now, I do understand one more cog in the machine of life. Something good can be found in every experience, whether fun or foul.

        Keep writing. Many of our experiences are common between us, and I learn from all you discover.
        ARCL, Mark

  54. Dear Mark – I’m glad your wife is healing quickly. It seems you have some Edgar Cayce type abilities. Even if late, Very Well Done on helping her out.
    I knew an ex Scientologist healer who could read my body flows perfectly. One time I severely wrenched my knee and couldn’t walk. He did a healing for me over the telephone and got me on my feet.
    Please wish your wife well for me. Thanks
    Richard

    • Thank you for your thoughts and your concerns, Richard.

      Not up to Edgar Cayce standards, but the necessity of the moment did force me to do what I had to. I wrote essays on affinity and empathy during auditing, which I found missing in many auditors. It came in handy. I found that affinity is actually senior to communication in the ARC triangle. Communication implies a distance and separation between individuals. As affinity increases, distance decreases to the point of zero at the highest level. Communication via particle flow becomes unnecessary. I don’t consider Hubbard to be wrong, he just wasn’t finished. He got sidetracked.

      Well, time to walk, dinner and then assists. NED assists seem the most effective and very easy and productive after a body comm assist.
      ARCL (Affinity, reality, communication,love) Mark

      • High affinity to the point of zero distance could explain some extrasensory perceptions. Great insight by you on that. I feel a mind meld coming on. smile
        Come to think of it, I’ve already had a mind meld with some of the viewpoints expressed here on things I’d not yet considered, more than just data.

      • christianscientology

        Hi Mark

        I can quite understand why you say Affinity is senior to Communication in the ARC triangle, however if it is then it is no longer an ARC triangle. The definition of Affinity is “Consideration of distance” so as long as we consider there is distance we are still in the realm of Affinity and the laws of communication still apply. It is only at the “theoretical” point of co-existence of static that Affinity becomes LOVE and Communication becomes COMMUNION and Reality becomes THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN.

        Of course it only appears to ‘become’, in truth that is what it always has been, everything else is IN THE DREAM.

        Love with Understanding
        Pip

  55. Marty,
    The OT3 data (bacteria to pneumonia/cancer) is NOT complete – the saga continues in the mountains of New Mexico. No one in the HATERS group (clambake, Atack, Hawkins etc) have linked up what LRH really means about OT3. Sad such brilliant idiots. The DEI scale actually starts with the I, which creates the desire, which becomes enforced etc, moves on up (or down) from there. You and Rinder NOW need to help LRH!!!

    • singanddanceall

      LRH is dead and told Sarge he failed and wasn’t coming back.

      • For what it’s worth, Dr Gene Denk told me LRH was focused, tone 40 and was working – just hours before he left. Then again, if it is not written – it is not true; I hope Sarge has something in writting. If not, looks like we will all have to sit on the “maybe” for awhile.

  56. This is from “Buddhism – A Way of Life and Thought” by Nancy Wilson Ross. (Buddha says) “Go ye forth, O monks, on your journey, for the profit of the many, for the bliss of the many, out of compassion for the world, for the welfare, for the profit, the bliss of the devas and mankind. Go not any two together.” His concluding remark has a faintly poignant ring: “There will some who understand.” (A modern Zen Master once advised a group of beginners in a similar vein: “Just sit! Meditate. Someone will join you.”

    • Path of Buddha

      Very nice, Richard
      Somewhere he also says something like – There will also be some without dust in their eyes.
      GMW

      • Hi George – Your insight into the Buddha has helped me gain a feeling of the man as well as his story. I’m also 70 and off to do some painting in a warehouse today. I don’t feel like throwing around 65 pound blocks, so climbing ladders and running around buildings keeps me in shape – laughter

  57. Seems like I am the biggest complainer in this arena. I guess the topic was an issue for me. Laughter! It is not easy for me to go a by a misunderstood body of knowledge. Laughter!

    I certainly have no regrets about the choices I have made with regards to my involvement in Scientology. When you get some of the basic ideas, you can expand on them to even fix things or see outpoints in the culture.

    For instance, K.S.W. policy is a danger condition declare. It is put on people as an item at the beginning of every check sheet. Bypass normal habits and routine. You can not blindly assign conditions throughout time. You can not assign an entire continent a condition when everyone is already happy with the way things are, and there are no ARCXen people.

    And I think Scientologists today are parked in a danger condition as routine. They always feel in endangered. And the IAS and CCHR drive it home on a regular basis. At the end of the day what is Hubbard saying? “Do the usual”. When you ask someone in Scientology that is delivering tech, to “do the usual”, and they can not or will not, they can not think with the tech so why are they there? You don’t see people going to dental school giving tattoos to the volunteers coming in for dental work. There is something off with all of these people that learn something in Scientology and then can think with it or use it. They are in the wrong place for them. There is nothing wrong with them. They are in the wrong place for them. The same way they are not sitting in dental school, they should not be doing an auditor course if they do not plan to audit and be able to do the usual. Auditing is a skill with laws. It takes discipline and the auditor has to be able to put himself on the back burner and think of someone else.

    That the auditors in Scientology are never acknowledged for their skill, and it is always “the tech” and Hubbard to acknowledge, is an issue and can drive anyone in the dirt. When someone gets a tooth fixed he thanks the dentist, not a body of scientists who came before him.

    People in the Freezone and Indie movement have to improvise with out the support of an organization. It is all on them and their practice is all for them. They have to bend on many issues to make it work. They can still do “the usual”. It gets crazy when they charge for an intensive and arrive and announce they will tutor math. Or insist on C/Sing and they have never trained or interned as a C/S.

    On the other hand, one need not go through the madness involved with going into a Church. Last time I sent someone in was about five years ago. I only sent him to buy a Dianetics book. He was down 250K to the IAS before he finished the comm course they sold him.

    I suggest to anyone looking into exchange out here, on delivery, to only pay for 12 hours of training or auditing with any new tech person. You will know within 12 hours if this is going to work, or if YOU have made a mistake in trusting. Move ahead in 12 hour increments. You can run control on your cycles much better this way. Best really if you just get trained. So you KNOW. Check sheets can be found on the Internet with course packs. It is a good idea to find the earliest copy of Dianetics The Original Thesis, and read that. There is a chapter on the simple laws an auditor should be able to follow, if he can’t he should not be auditing you or anyone else. Not even in the Church.

    It has not been easy for me to watch this entire movement rise and fall so fast. There obviously has been no qual. There was no qual for Hubbard.

    I can only think back to when things were going well for everyone and I saw it with my own eyes. It was before New Era Dianetics. I have the first Dianetics checksheet and course pack, which I am going through with a “buddy”. That is what worked for me. I will go through the second and compare.

    Back when I got in, people could complete a cycle of action in the Church and move on. Get through Dianetics and the grades, go out to L.A. and get through the original OT levels through OTVll, and leave as happy campers. I did know of four people from my area that did that.

    The Church today is a maze when people are really not permitted to complete a cycle of action. They are recycled instead.

    When I attested to anything in the Church, and said I wished others could have the same wins or gains, I wasn’t lying. I meant it. I still do. But keeping it real, I was only two weeks past 16 years old when I got involved, was very ignorant because of my youth, and I was, well, I was pretty bent out of shape and didn’t even know it. Most people that get involved in Scientology are not parked in the mud that way that I was. So perhaps the help and information was not such a vital issue for them. I actually didn’t think there was anything wrong with me then. And I was carried by gentle loving real people through self improvement. I did not have to confront an army of soldiers.

    I keep thinking there is some way to adjust and fix things, to move things back to a good place with this subject. To make everyone happy. But this urge comes from “hope” and is not a reasonable hope anymore.

    There seems to be a problem with blending the extraordinary with the ordinary. But what made made Ghandi extraordinary is that he put himself out there and served for ordinary people. And they did not disappoint him. Because he had a clean flow on help. And he changed a nation through help.

    I have come to a very ordinary conclusion about the experience of exploring Scientology. Just like any other experience, it is the people that you know. It’s who you know. The power has always been with the people. This is really a huge omitted data in Scientology. It’s always “Ron” everything everywhere. And it’s a lie. It’s you and me. It’s who you have known.

    I can’t put the people and the times I knew, in front of other people. So I can not create for them the same experiences I had. And at the end of the day, the good experiences I had, really came down to the people that were good to me.

    Blending the ordinary with the extraordinary, it is not difficult to make another person happy. Care about them.

    Find out what they want and need, and give it to them.

    If you can not manage those two things, it really doesn’t matter what you are exploring.

    I am very grateful for the people I met in Scientology, that helped me to care about others and be worthy of their trust. I have tried to pay that forward.

    Looking back, I can see I was not a very valuable person to others when I got involved in Scientology.

    When I left the Church as a “clear”, can’t say I had much going on still. I was able to put other’s needs above my own. But I would not describe myself as “good company”.

    It’s been 23 years since I left the Church. I have continued on the bridge outside of the Church when it has been convenient. But nothing have done made me good company. I had to invent myself that way.

    I think really, I have only been good company the last few years. And blending the ordinary with the extraordinary, I just had to move to a good neighborhood.

    Self evolution takes daily effort, moving yourself around and being able to move stuff around. Other people that never heard of Scientology are able to do it. And this effort extends through eternity.

    If you didn’t make any progress in Scientology, or reap any benefits, you can still go out and push your body around the block to lower your cholesterol.

    Happy trails.

  58. It’s been said before that there are many paths to the top of the mountain.
    As I trek up my path there will be rest stops. Knowing there are other paths, I’m curious and I roam. Sure enough! Another path!
    Again I trek and again, perhaps, roam. At some point the view of the valley is quite nice, my final encampment.

    • Late in life, Stalking Wolf, an American Indian sage, expressed that he would be off to a journey in the mountains. All knew that he would not return. Stalking Wolf earned his name by stalking and touching a wolf, one of natures most alert and aware creatures.

    • Again, I would stress diligence and effort. The ability to work toward a goal.
      Work is cheap and easy if you decide that it is so. What is the difference in work and play except effort toward what you want to do and what you have to do. I choose to want to do something worthwhile and lasting. It’s a choice.
      Mark.
      PS: What is it that inspired me to work toward my lady’s and my health? Necessity level? Fear of loss or pain? Lower emotions will always produce wrong answers errors. Enthusiasm and action will produce desirable results.

      • Nice one, Mark – I see that mind melds have benefits. (smile) I’m being cosmic. You’re just reading into my words. (maybe, probably)
        I’ve never been a goal setter. Above, Oracle suggests purpose is senior to goals. They seem similar but are resolving even as I write. I’ll keep what you say here and earlier in mind. “have drive and push forward” would be a scn approach also presented in other ologies or isms or just a personal preference.
        On the “Middle Path” post Marty suggests “seek balance of intellect and intuition”. Intellect would point out something and intuition would allow the right approach. This is just my feeling at this time. Enthusiasm and action are a good place to be.
        There is a “final encampment” on Mt. Everest before attempting the peak. It’s not a “final resting place” – lol. There are many possible outcomes.
        Best, Richard

        • I hesitate to mis-align with Marty, we align on so many topics and details. But I have never been a big fan of ‘Balance’ and taking the ‘Middle Path’.

          To me, harmony is not a goal in itself, but rather a means or path to a goal or goals. It is the right road to take if it is the road that leads to your destination. Often disharmony and bucking the trend is the correct thing to do. It’s a moment to moment thing. If it is a long term goal in a particular environment which needs harmony, then it becomes a long moment. When imbalance is needed, I keep it to that area of activity.

          This may appear to be an impossibly complex way to live, but no, my goals are clear, I decide what to do, and I do it. Life is simple. Large areas of my life that need balance, I keep balanced.

          Hubbard was correct in that every individual has his ideal level of randomity. There are very few who could be happy in a life of perfect order. There are a few who thrive on total chaos. Most are somewhere on the infinite gradient in between. I am dissatisfied if something surprising doesn’t happen every day. Miss Oracle certainly doesn’t mind disrupting the flow when she has a purpose.

          The point being that the middle path is not something to seek or to be avoided. It’s a nice place to visit, but I wouldn’t want to live there.
          Mark

          • Mark: “I have never been a big fan of ‘Balance’ and taking the ‘Middle Path’.”

            You and Adyashanti may be in accord on that, as he believes the Middle Path is often taught incorrectly. Short vid for you:

          • Hi MarkNR – It seems like a continual creation of goals a striving toward achieving them provides you with meaning and action in your life which would be fine for many people. So you might agree that you would be in a goal setting/achiever category.
            Other people might wait for a goal or purpose to “appear” and then follow it. Many people have a degree in a subject, but have a totally different occupation, for example.

            • Hello Richard, enjoying your thoughts and opinions.

              In MY LIFE, I am CURRENTLY in a mode where activity and experiencing the results of my activity are the primary reason for existence. Mix in a healthy interest and effort in the lives of my family and friends, a bit of interest in the 4th dyn, and there you have it.

              There are many more things and areas of importance that I am not currently addressing, but that is for the future. The field of life is broad and can keep me busy for quite awhile. Life is fun and getting better all the time. But, I have to assign relative importances, so, one adventure at a time. I’m done with NASA, they are relentless, just wanting more and more. They have enough for now. I gave them enough to make me feel smart and useful. Now on to something else.

              Dianetics and Scn. were a good honest effort at resolving mans foibles and the mystery of the spirit. A lot of strides were made. So many people, now, are stuck on Hubbard’s errors and case defects. My opinion is that anyone who sees an error in his work should find a workable correction and disseminate it widely. Pointing out errors is the easy part. Creating broadly workable solutions is a bit tougher. Some say that everyone must find their own path. OK. Then find a workable way to assist people in getting going on their own path. That would be wrong? Bulls@#t. There are billions of people who are not finding a path to betterment for lack of accurate data or a little bit of suggestion.

              There are very few things that irritate me these days. One of those is to hear attacks on others with no solution for their believed errors. Perhaps the error that is being pointed out is genuine. Finding this defect is only part of the job. Find and develop the correction. Anyone who cannot even put some bit of effort toward the upside, to me, is worthless and should just introvert and shut up. They should speak again when they find something worthwhile to say, something that actually makes life better for someone, somewhere.

              Helping others is not the path of all persons, right now. Fine. I got NO PROBLEM with that. Really! Berating others with no intention of improving anything, I got a problem with that.

              This rant is not an attack on you. It is a call to arms to all who can see that life can be better for themselves and others, that a little effort is worth it, that thinking and evaluating is worthless without doing. That doing is possible, and is actually enjoyable once one gets underway. With a little due diligence, and by paying attention, a lot can be learned. There is already a lot of useful info out there, and a huge amount to be found simply by looking honestly. Like I have said before, bar stool philosophy is like masturbation. It feels good, but doesn’t produce anything.
              Mark

              • Hi Mark – The Buddha would not have sent out an acolyte to spread the word. In scio-speak he probably would not be “On Source” and would spread misinformation.

                (Evaluation Alert) Berating of others is in the topic “Culture of Complaint”. This topic seems to have touched a nerve in you – laughter. I think most of us were hopeful scn would have a widespread 4th dynamic (mankind) impact. Other things are having a bigger 4th dynamic impact like approaching planet wide interaction via the internet. After all, you and I are here now.
                Richard

                • P.S. I just noticed your April 23 reply to Oracle below which explains your viewpoint. I got it and I agree. smile (scanning back over older comments gets a bit confusing at times – laughter. Next time I’ll just post at the bottom!

  59. Path of Buddha

    “I keep thinking there is some way to adjust and fix things, to move things back to a good place with this subject. To make everyone happy. But this urge comes from “hope” and is not a reasonable hope anymore.”

    The issue of Scientology now reminds me of what to do with an old, worn out house that is out of code. The only things you can do with it are knock it down or wait for it to fall. It is a subject out of date. IMHO Miscavige was nothing but a reactionary conservative. He tossed out Hubbard’s desire for genetically pure bodies. He stopped all new ideas and went back to the Middle Ages. His handling of OT VII was a lot like the cardinals of Rome trying to deduce how many angels fit on the head of a pin.
    It was hope that kept Scientology alive. It was 50 years of hope by people who thought that Hubbard had answers. Scientology is a failed venture capital project. Thousands of people with hope for eternity donated billions of dollars for the tech. This is like any other business failure. It could be new Corn Flakes or a new computing system. It does not matter. Scientology peaked with solo NOTS because you could get thousands of hours of self auditing for peanuts. Think about it. For $1,000 per hour you got L’s. You got OT VII for minimum wage per hour.
    Miscavige failed because he had no imagination. He increased the cost of gains from minumum wage ($8.25 for OT VII ) to $1,000 for the L’s. Then he increased gains to $5,000 per hour. Finally, when he asked only for donations, he increased the cost of auditing to infinity. The religion that wanted to help you be an infinite being instead increased the cost of its practice to infinity.
    IMHO there is hope for Scientology. It will only start when the organized church finally fails. When I was on the Freewinds in 1988 on OT8, I had at one time thought that I could communicate with Hubbard. These thoughts that I had were all out of nowhere. I was thinking that he was like this benevolent god. The truth revealed was that he was ordinary and that he had more fears that I had ever had. But I can honestly say that he helped me during one very brief period of my life from 1972-1976. Can I put a value on this? It certainly was more than the cost. And the friends I met. These people are priceless.
    The correct attitude and beingness for a Scientologist is still out there. It has not been reformed. One thing for certain. Miscavige is the wrong path. Hubbard is history anyway so no need to classify him anymore.
    When the old house out of code finally falls, there will be rooms for another cult leader.
    GMW

    • Hubbard had a couple of things going for him.

      Diligence and exceptional perception. Two of my most respected traits. He promoted, more than anyone else, the idea of a structured, methodical method of self improvement.

      With some perception and diligence, several of us could recognize some of his errors and insights, and go very much farther than he. The trick is to do the work. Granted, my work has been limited to myself and my friends and family. But I have learned a lot. I would like to tell everyone all the things I have learned, but one of the first things I discovered is that the principles of life should be discovered for oneself. They mean a lot more when learned for oneself. They become much more real (not solid) and useful.
      Mark

      • “Hubbard had a couple of things going for him.

        Diligence and exceptional perception. Two of my most respected traits. He promoted, more than anyone else, the idea of a structured, methodical method of self improvement.”

        I agree on those points. Hubbard was miles ahead of the professionals in the 1970’s. You could read Freud or Karen Horney but there really was no “structured, methodical method of self improvement.” It was obvious to those of us on a journey that Hubbard had the advantage.
        GMW

      • “Hubbard had a couple of things going for him.” I really liked those anti Q and A Drills. Even when I wallow in Q and A I know what I am doing. But I can cut through any fog or abracadabra or con man or scam artist in record time. Made me dangerous in business and sticky social intercourse.

        The tech on items was huge for me. People trying to push items on you that are not yours, giving you wrong items and denying you right items. I have actually been criticized by a “highly trained auditor” for not enforcing their items on my children. If I was not aware of this very subtle and tricky social intercourse pushed forward by pain attitudes emotions and sensations, my own living space might be in shambles. You do get used to thinking with this tech and making better choices for yourself and the people around you. And you realize how many items have been forced on you that you run with. Who’s item was it to eat three meals a day at specified times? Probably the Royals in Britain. My item is to eat at 2 a.m. while laying in bed and reading a book. I stand by that. I don’t want to stop the world for lunch. Kale salad? No way, not for me. Give me a big old hairy pickled pigs foot. Kids want to sleep all day and play all night? God forbid someone let them HAVE their right item. One of my kids just won a championship gaming event on the East Coast that paid for his first car and a condo in Florida. Playing games was his item!

        The tech on can’t have’s must have’s enforced have’s….boom! The minute I see that someone’s main duty in life is to run can’t have’s on others, I move them off my cloud. That is spooky.

        The CDEI scale? Boom! Has been valuable information for me. Also really aligns with knowing your own items from others. If I’m not curious about it and if I don’t feel the desire, it is not my item. You can see by what you offer others, in their reactions, if you are on a “wrong items” giving to someone else also, and back off. There are special cases, I have experienced this, where you have a person that tells you their item, you give it to them, and they reject it. This can go on for months with them asking you for things you provide, they never take or use. They run can’t haves on themselves and are usually running can’t haves on you too. In those cases I usually run this havingness process called, “Look around here and find something you wouldn’t mind getting rid of” to move them off my lines and rehab myself from the social intercourse.

        “Alter is” is sleight of hand magic you need to be attuned to. Otherwise people can wrap your head around a pole and forward false information. You can start to think of it in simple terms and expand your insight. If someone comes to mow the yard for you, and then comes in for a drink of water and waits for you to pay him, you hand him the water and lay two 20’s on the table. He diverts your attention to the fish tank and when you look back, there is only one 20 on the table. “You still owe me 20.00” he says sheepishly. Go out and check your yard, sure enough you will find it was not even mowed and he planted dandelions instead. It expands out into all kinds of social intercourse including people twisting your meanings, messages and words. Whereby the anti Q and A drills come in handy to move through the abracadabra.

        Spotting conditions. Even lay folk and ghetto folk are on top of this one. Like you want to get hooked at the hip with someone with a long history of treason? Someone parked in an enemy condition?

        Contact assists. Embrace the pain. Did you ever think about the fact you clear people by asking them to do a contact assist when they run those incidents?

        Knowing what is fact as separate from attitude. Attitudes can be powerful invisible forces. You kind of become attuned to it when facing pain attitude emotion and sensation issues. Attitudes can floor some people. These are heavy forces for switching items on people. Putting items on you that are not yours. Kind of important for even reading Hubbard, to sift through his attitudes and place the proper value on them. I personally thought all of the ethics codes and justice policies reflected his attitudes about what he could tolerate. A confession of intolerance. He actually promoted intolerance as a virtue. But the way I see it, intolerance gets it’s force from attitudes.

        Well, those are my favorite pieces of insight gleamed from exploring Hubbard’s mind. But I have a history of wandering the battlefields and picking through the pockets of the formerly very excited.

        • There is another important thing to know about the alter ising. There are people that will alter is what you say on the way to their ears. Not kidding. You say, “A”, they hear, “B”. Respond to things you never said, implied, or even thought.

          An example. I grew up in inner cities, NYC, San Fran, Oakland etc etc. Places where there were lots of people from all over the world. Very cosmopolitan. Very rich with cultural diversity . I moved recently to Mormon populated Utah, in a place that was settled by Swiss mid 1800’s. Everyone here is from here, been here, most ain’t never left here. Clean healthy habits extremely religious. O.K. fine, nothing wrong with that, but it is like going from color television to black and white T.V.. You can’t find any cooking supplies for your Japanese sauces, can’t find your plantains, gotta order your curry through amazon now, whatever.

          So, someone comes from out of town and we are talking about the area and I say, “It is hard to get used to being around only white people”. The person goes, “Oh! I Like white people.” In a very challenging manner with a lot of attitude. WTF? Did I say I didn’t like white people? I’m white hey didn’t you notice? He heard me say, “I don’t like white people”. Now there is a big line in the sand and you are an enemy. You can’t fix it. The more you say the more you are morphed into some character you never met and this other person keeps trying to put it on you that that person is YOU.

          I honestly believe , there are people sitting in mental institutions right now, that have been in close contact and lengthy endurance with people that do this. On some spooky level it drives you into a slight condition of confusion for a minute. But if you can see it is simple alter is, which puts items on you that are not yours, it has zero effect on you .

          I think at the bottom of every ARCX, an item has been forced on you, an items has been denied you, you have been given someone else’s item, or something to do with items.

          If someone upsets you or makes you feel intolerant, you can even write down all of your attitudes about the person, go through the list, and find some items there there really are not your items, or items that should not be on your list. Or, an item that has been taken off the list, like, tolerance.

          • Path of Buddha

            “The more you say the more you are morphed into some character you never met and this other person keeps trying to put it on you that that person is YOU.”

            I had a life lesson recently on this very point. A young man saw me in my front yard and asked for work. I let him pull some weeds. He was one of the best weed pullers I ever met. He openly told me that he had been on “crack” but was “clean”. Two weeks later my neighbor told me that a lady down the street was calling me a “crack head” WOW!

            • LAUGHTER! Too funny!

              I just discovered people can alter is texted messages! When it is right there in writing! Neighbor’s son deployed to Iraq so they went to the ceremony yesterday in another state and she left her brother in charge of two dogs. He was supposed to put them in the house at 6 P.M.. He works a night shift. One of the dogs is a bizarre looking weenie dog / pit bull. He looks like a GIANT muscle weenie dog with a pit bull head on it. His name is Clyde and he very particular about his company. Unpredictable attacks. His side kick, a giant black lab that smiles ear to ear, wags it’s tail, then nips. 7 pm Clyde starts barking. He gets very frantic when left alone. 7 – 11 pm it is constant. Cops arrive at 11, two vehicles, one an SUV to take the dogs. I run over and handle it and bring the dogs to my place and park them in the garage. 10 am this morning the brother shows up. He misread texted instructions from “Put them in the house”, to “Leave them out in the yard”! So,Clyde waddles home behind him begrudgingly, stuffed on lamb/rice dog biscuits. I got that dog wrapped around my finger. They have a “no treats” policy, so we have a little thing going on with me sneaking him stuff through the fence. I guess it is kind of an out 5D.

              Weed pulling is an art and valuable information. Those clover vines can take down a yard in weeks by choking out the grass. Pulling them is addictive as you have to feel through the under grass to find the vines. You can’t see them with your eyes. Pulling weeds is one of my favorite things to do, especially is it is an undergrowth of jungle. The yard looks one length and then you grab this vine and pull out this giant vine 4 or feet long, it looks like you are doing magic. I got my kids into it and they love it too. I’m sure you already know this, but for those that may not. Weeds come up in fragile hungry grass. They find the weakness and use it to take over the property. If you do not make your own compost, you can find “Nature’s Care” organic at Home Depot. After you pull the weeds, mow it down, spread a good layer of compost on the yard. If you can find them at a local nursery, get of box of worms to cast out over the compost and water. Usually 300 come in what looks like a Chinese Food take out container. Next day toss new grass seed all over, water again. The worms will nourish the roots and you will get a beautiful looking yard that will stay weed free as long as you feed it that way every 3-4 months.

              • Path of Buddha

                LOL about the dogs!
                We have a cat named Napolean left over from my daughter’s kindness to animals. The only problem is that Napoleon is ferrill. It means that he will not allow anyone to touch him except me. I’ve been taking care of Napolean for eight years. I have been working with him to calm him down. He will allow me to pet him and play with him from the time he sees his food until about five minutes after he consumes it. He loves to roam in the woods and be independent. He is not a house cat. Napolean will not allow anyone else to get within twenty feet. He does not like any loud sounds. In the last year, I have gotten him to “hang out” with me and he acts like a normal cat for 15 minutes or so. You can scratch his belly and he will do a light purr. He will lay on the ground and just “hang out”. This is great progress since for the first two years he scratched my daughter, my wife and I to the point of serious bleeding. We tried to take Napolean to the Vet but he fought with such zeal that we concluded he deserved a home. He has a job keeping away snakes and other small creatures. He once took on a racoon and won the battle!
                Thanks for the information on the grass. We have a large compost bin so I will try the idea near the garden.
                Much Metta,
                GMW

                • I liked reading about the cat. It seems you extended yourself to grant him the good life he deserved. It seems he works to repay you too. How simple life is sometimes.

                  Had to put your book down for a minute while I got through Spring planting. Seven more days and I can pick it up and finish. So far, it had been a very good read. Thanks for sharing. Plan to leave a great review.

        • I have thoroughly enjoyed your last few essays on “Items”.
          You said:
          ” God forbid someone let them HAVE their right item.”

          When someone is pushing their purposes or opinions or effort to control on me, I like to think that I take it as a suggestion until I gather the data I need to sort it out. I said ‘I like to think”. It is a constant onslaught. I’m not nearly as perceptive and diligent as I sometimes think I am. It often comes down to a solid confidence in my ow decisions. I don’t always have that, and sometimes take what comes my way without question. Sometimes I just forget to look.

          I have become fairly good at allowing others to have their own thoughts and opinions. If I recognize an obvious fault, and I have data that is useful to them, and I can convey it in a manner that they can accept and duplicate, I offer that data. Making someone wrong for being in error will surely discount the communication you are offering.

          Your communication is one of your products. Find out what is needed AND wanted and produce it. When someone has a stuck error in thinking, they are searching for a correction. But they must find the error themselves. Any correction must be OFFERED in a manner that they can FIND it. I try to keep that in mind, when searching for my own errors.

          This system of “offer, and allow to find” is most obvious in humor. It has been said that the basis of most humor is the recognition of an out-point. The receiver of the humor must be allowed to recognize the out-point. A communication reach which produces a reach in return.

          Just a thought, Mark

    • “IMHO there is hope for Scientology.”

      Well, it has passed through the classes and everyone “lofty” has had their taste.

      It began with Hubbard and his cafe society of middle classed thinkers who were still curious and educated, and hoped they could undercut the complex and redundant and narcissistic “mental Health” professionals. It gave them the “edge”.

      Then, curiously, it fell into the hands of Hippies and wanders, rebels and misfits who denied the common think and agreement. Hey, we all can’t get along with others.

      Of course, then it fell upon the soldiers who were sent to keep the misfits in line. Soldiers always serve the rich and powerful. The soldiers then took it over and reminded the others on a constant basis they were in a condition of enemy until they all vanished and respectfully went into non existance as “enemy” was a force that did not give them meaning. Only the soldiers meaning.

      Then, as nobody was left fighting for it and it was so devalued, it was buried in vaults or swept to the gutter as a total “no Value” by no pride of ownership. Only shame.

      So it then ends up with the Nation of Islam and the field people of Europe and becomes “middle magic”. Just like the Bible was privileged reading to only a few, and then ended up in every motel room in America.

      Um, I’ve seen this happen before.

      • Path of Buddha

        Hi Oracle,
        Scientology burned through the classes, as you say. The general population thinks it is trash. Numbers have dwindled. Attacks continue. Negative documentaries are made. Hubbard’s death revealed his weakness. The anti-Christ story is myth. All of these are true.
        The reason I think that there is still hope for Scientology is because all of the above are side shows. If Miscavige was replaced, a new cult leader could reform the offering by changing the administrative tech and streamlining the auditing tech. This is why I think there is hope.

        • In 1998 the Hare Krishna movement conducted an internal investigation on itself, and published an unusually candid expose of their findings.

          They came clean.

          They got hit with so many law suits they lost everything and had to file for bankruptcy. It was a higher priority for them to be honest a straight, than it was to look good. And that was good P.R.. They started up all over with some policies so this would never happen again. Hell, they were able to do a danger formula. They came out of it, rose above it. As of 2011 they had 45-50 thousand members just in the Ukraine.

          That group attracts a different kind of character than the Scientology organizations do. It is not a militant organization. They are not in a war zone nor do they live in that mindset. Honesty and a clean heart is senior to mest in their world. They were able to do a danger condition.

          Miscavige’s number one policies are to lie, deny, and false report. Money for nothing and your labor for free. HE, has an “ideal scene”. The rest are not in a freedom position to use ethics to improve their lot. The highest condition possible for them to rest in, is liability. They are locked below danger in their own policies to never come clean. They get sec checked in courts of law now.

          I do not have hope for that expanding in a positive way. It could expand in negative way, like a the sale of heroin. But truth be told, people who flow with negative forces are always rewarded with pleasure moments or good memories.

          If your beingness is not “celebrity”, in Scientology, it’s your own fkn fault if you aren’t happy. They will work to make celebrities happy, but everyone else is on their own and if they are not happy they have crimes against the Org. If you are happy, you are viewed as theetie wheetie. How can you be happy unless you are oblivious to the plight of blah blah blah…. I don’t see it spreading in a negative vein either.

          And I have to ask myself, why would I “save” every man woman and child on this planet, to endure life in a civilization, like the one that was created in the all Scientology city called the Int Base? With the best and brightest and the cleanest and the most devoted real OTs!

          Fk saving anybody, they couldn’t even assist one another! Parked in lower conditions they can not rise above~!

          Nah, I don’t need to save every man woman and child to set them up for that. That there was the real end of Scientology. You gotta have a nice car in the showroom to show people before you can sell it. The audition for Scientology to get a part, as a planetary want and need, came and went.

          • And this is the problem I saw with the ethics and justice codes in the Church. If you look under “suppressive acts”, this is set up to prevent any organization, from working out of danger. It is set up to prevent people from working out of danger. And, you are being asked to surrender your civil rights.

            The people scrunched down into lower conditions by the culture’s “ethics and justice” muzzles, when they leave and try to sort it out, rise up, they are hit with suppression from the Organization.

            What is so damned “ethical” about all of that?

            I don’t think Hubbard did that on purpose. But I think he was alright with an Org failing if it meant his name was going to take hit. And if he was concerned he sent in his soldiers, who, by there mere presence, declared everyone an enemy. Then they would proceed to knock the authority and reputation out from under the locals. He wasn’t thinking about Orgs, about you or me, when he made those rules. He was alright with collateral damages, as long as others took the hits. He was protecting himself.

            • And when you find yourself aligned with people, that are willing to throw children under the bus, to “look good”, you find yourself floating in the underbelly of existence.

            • Oddly enough, this came up on the radar and this is a perfect example of the point I am making: http://www.tampabay.com/news/scientology/former-scientologists-tell-federal-judge-church-thwarted-process-to-get/2273290

              • Path of Buddha

                This judge is clueless about Scientology. I see your point.

              • Translation:

                Real estate beggar for Miscavige scams a Church of Scientology customer inside the Church of Scientology.

                Customer discovers the scam and asks the Church to set it right.

                Miscavige enforces a “no refund” policy. How?

                The funds are ill gotten for his real estate project, which is NOT the Church of Scientology. Miscavige sets policy, not Hubbard.

                No one has bothered to ask why his real estate company is preying off of CofS customers.

                The I.A.S. is also Miscavige’s private company.

                The Freewinds is also Miscavige’s private yacht used for I.A.S..

                Nobody in the Church “in good standing” has even asked to see an L.R.H. policy on any of this. All of the “good, on source, K.S.W.” Scientologists. Why? They would be sent to the ethics officer for being out ethics, yes punished and shifted into an “enemy” condition by the Church itself!

                These are listed as suppressive acts:

                Seeking to splinter off an area of Scientology and deny it properly constituted authority for personal profit, personal power or “to save the organization from the higher officers of Scientology”;

                Engaging in malicious rumour mongering to destroy the authority or repute of higher officers or the leading names of Scientology or to “safeguard” a position.

                What do you find here? Rank matters. If it is a public and you write a K.R. about, or if you “mention something about it” (an ethics gradient), you get a pass. If it is a “higher officer”, it is rumor mongering.

                So, nobody outside of the Sea Org, is allowed to put ethics in on the Sea Org. And nobody in the Sea Org, is allowed to put ethics in on Miscavige.

                In this suppressive act, RANK is the issue. ” Deliver Scientology into the hands of unauthorized persons or [persons] who will suppress it or alter it or who have no reputation for following standard lines and procedures.” “Unauthorized” is the key note here. Since the Sea Org is authorized to suppress Scientology and Scientologists, it is a non issue! Geeze, I could go and on about the unfairness and unworkability of this crap!

                You mention it to one of these fanatics and I hear, “You are railing against justice”! This is not justice, I’m sorry. I have no problems with justice and they know it and that is why they accuse on the Internet instead of in my front yard. Wrong item, wrong indication. It is the INJUSTICE they can not see, that I have a problem with.

                The ethics and justice codes are not there to benefit Scientologists. They are there to benefit anyone with RANK. They are not about the customer. They are rules for the higher classes. And, you have to ask yourself, “Is this my item?” To have a system where only highest class has any rights or protection or recourse? If it is, what century are you stuck in?

                And who is “winning” with these codes? The one with the highest rank.

                The weirdest thing to watch are the people abused by this system that come out here and still swear by it. Masochists?

                O.K. so back to the latest monster P.R. flap the Church is in, because these people are so far removed from ethics and justice and reason they can’t divide the greatest good by 8.

                “Greatest Good” INCLUDES all of mankind!!!! Not just senior staff, Sea Org personnel and the people that represent them. They are NOT accounted for in any capacity in these ethics codes. And in fact, they are excluded. So how do these codes align with being able to be ethical? You are not allowed to count or enter the greatest value when making decisions! What kind of freaking math is this???

                The scam winds up in court, the Church then scams the judge by pretending they can offer justice to the customer. The one with no rank. Spends more money to do that, than return the scammed money.

                The Int justice chief in good standing, and the one in charge of ethics for the Church of Scientology, is on the front lines being used in the scam against the judge. This is the man! The International Justice Chief of the universe! And he can’t bypass normal habits and routines, to handle a danger for ANYONE.

                Now, I ask you, how ethical are these people? They are in “good standing” with themselves, so they think they are alright! Even if they are parked in treason with the rest of the world and nobody else can tolerate them!!! Does it get more out ethics than this? Maybe they just can’t count the greatest good divided by 8? Maybe some people do not mind to pledge allegience to a group wherein they they really have no rights, and even surrender rights granted to them on the third and fourth dynamic.

              • And just for the record, the reason I was able to get behind Marty, is because he did not run, “rank and royalty” on people.

                He could have.

                And trust me there are people that leave the Church and use rank and royalty to sponge off the Scientology community.

                Instead, Marty used his former identity to protect people, educate people, push power under people, set up a platform for the middle class and lower class of Scientology to share their value. Without any regard for his own status. Or profit. He did not run the class system or rank on anyone.

                I know what it was like before he set up this blog. We were auditing in closets because of the suppression. Using check sheets by Clearbird.

                Some people tried to use his former life against him even though he laid himself down and pushed others up. Some people piggy backed on him until they found some ground, and then attacked him. Then, they themselves set themselves up, as “Scientology Royalty and rulers”. Not having given a fraction of what Marty gave, to the “cause”. Not having finished a check sheet to audit someone compared to Marty’s training and experience with P.C.’s. Oh my God the ugliness, selfishness, and injustice in that. Especially when he was already burdened with suppression coming from the other direction. While he was taking the heat, people out here tried to profit off his misery. Or took stabs. The worst in humanity showed it’s face.

                Marty bought out the best and worst in people. But he took all of the heat for years so people out here would have some Freedom to do what they wanted and could, to make the world a better place.

                He rose above these unjust codes and made new laws happen. He freed people from the oppression of Scientology Royalty and the upper class. And if it were not for him, there would not be Scientology roots in the streets right now.

                The people that attacked him as a “squirrel” , have as much comprehension of ethics as the current Int Justice Chief. That he bypassed the normal habits and routines of rank and royalty, made it possible for people out here to audit at all. That he respected everyone’s rights, set a new example that people could use some of this information and at the same time care and respect others.

                He granted rights. And in coming out the way he did, he granted people the right to fair game him, and some people really jumped on it and went to town.

                It takes a lot of courage to grant people rights.

                It takes a self serving uncaring person to run can’t have’s. And think they are more Godly than others, to determine other people’s rights.

                I think Marty may be the only person that has explored Scientology. that can include the fourth dynamic in decision making. That is a whole lot of people you need to add when making decisions. How what you are doing will impact THEM, not just you and your hobby. Does it help all of them to be twisting our justice systems? Does it help any of them to get false reports? Does it help anyone when you are out here shaming and degrading a member of the human race? You are eating away at your own group! You ARE a member of the human race. Don’t discount them in value. That is cheating at math.

                The only royals on this Earth live in Great Britain, get over it. And even they recognize other people’s rights.

            • Path of Buddha

              Oracle said:
              “And this is the problem I saw with the ethics and justice codes in the Church. If you look under “suppressive acts”, this is set up to prevent any organization, from working out of danger. It is set up to prevent people from working out of danger. And, you are being asked to surrender your civil rights.”

              Very interesting. You are implying that Hubbard’s system keeps an individual and an organization in samsara, endless misery. This is probably why Hubbard made such a point about his research. It was endless. This is the clue to Scientology. In other words, you cannot take all of the known pieces of Scientology and paste them together into a consistent, unified truth. All you can really do is be “Johnny on the spot”. You can be a fireman but you can never prevent fire. In essence, the ethics system is no more than a reflection of the enigma that Hubbard never solved. Since he could not solve the problem of life, he transferred the burden and weight of it to his followers. This makes sense. I think you have hit the fundamentals. Hubbard ends with wanting genetically pure bodies. This is also a clue. He is asking for his own imagined survival. Notice that he did not leave any processes. He simply said “work it out for me.” “If you fail, the burden in on you.”
              In a sense, Scientology is like the ancient Buddhist image. Ants walking on the rim of a clay pot in an endless circle. Another Buddhist simile would be that when a moth flies into a flame, it “misses the mark”.
              GMW

              • “In other words, you cannot take all of the known pieces of Scientology and paste them together into a consistent, unified truth.”

                Because they do not fit together. The ethics codes do not support the ethics formulas. And some of the formulas do not align with the tech! You go into one formula and you are given a list, “harm attack or suppress”. You are given a list and asked to choose an item. What if your item is not on that list and what if these are not your items or purposes? That formula doesn’t even align with the laws of listing and nulling!

                Many things do not align, sometimes even the promo!!

                You take the release of OT8. It was promoted for YEARS as “Freedom from amnesia on whole track”. After maiden voyage I see an OT8 at the Sandcastle on level zero. I ask if he is being audited with a meter. “Yes”. I go to the Commanding Officer of the Freewinds Relay Office and ask, “If he has no amnesia why would you need to use a meter?” Boom! Mad rush all over the base to remove any promo piece referring to amnesia on the whole track. I mean, that was the SOLUTION! Remove the promo! WTF?

                These are very very elementary observations, if you can actually think with some of the laws. There are false laws that cancel one another out and some people manage to adopt both!!!! How do they do that???

                I think, they think, “It is better to think with someone else’s mind, than my own.” And if you know anything about conditions, well, right there you are setting yourself up to be bypassed constantly and you will remain parked in a danger condition. You are asking someone elae to bypass you and do your thinking for you. You are asking someone else, to think for you. This is your greatest freedom and responsibility, to think for yourself. Do you know how many staff it takes to get one public on service at Flag? Like someone can’t walk in the front door, and know how to walk to an HGC? He/she is handed a multi page routing form on arrival that can take two days just to get from the front door to the HGC.
                The minute you take that routing form in your hand, you are not supposed to be thinking for yourself anymore.

                I used to bring these things up, these obvious outpoints, and people in front of me would just fall into confusion, become offended, or look at me like I was the one confused. Sometime two things just can not both be true, it does not add up.

                Am I all disgruntled that I asked someone to think for me, and it didn’t go well? Bud, it would be a cold day in hell before someone could bypass me on the thinking end of my life. I don’t need someone else to think for me, I got that. I can look at ideas and incorporate them as long as I can see the math add up. But I’m the captain of this ship. I need to say if we sail right or sail left.

                What is ” receiving orders ” if not letting someone else think for you? Why are you on that post at all if someone has to tell you what to do? “Non compliance” means someone went rogue and thought for them self.It is only when someone PRETENDS to be coordinating with you and they are running hidden agendas, that non compliane becomes ugly and treasonous.

                Scientology is not a perfect organized system. Hubbard said it was workable. Some of it is not. It is not workable at all. Much does not align or fit together. The ethics and justice tech, I mean geeze. How does a comm ev align with the third party law? By the time the members have sat down they have been third partied on you to the wall and back, and these people are set up to judge you!!!! Wouldn’t you need to know if their ruds are in on you before they are empowered to determine your fate? They sure as hell want to know your ruds are in on leaving staff routing form!!!!

                The issue with Scientologists is that they believe they are in a perfect system. And they would rather have someone else think for them. And even when they can see it does not always work out, they would rather another imperfect mind think for them, than their own.

                • Path of Buddha

                  “You take the release of OT8. It was promoted for YEARS as “Freedom from amnesia on whole track”. After maiden voyage I see an OT8 at the Sandcastle on level zero. I ask if he is being audited with a meter. “Yes”. I go to the Commanding Officer of the Freewinds Relay Office and ask, “If he has no amnesia why would you need to use a meter?”

                  Great point!
                  This “Freedon from amnesia on the whole track” really stretched my imagination on the Freewinds. We did not get any instructions on this whatsoever. I concluded that Hubbard meant that it was a by-product of the level. In other words, after you handled all of your personal items, this ability would sort of “kick in”. In reality, I thought that “Freedom from amnesia on the whole track” was not a “good” ability. Like why would one want to remember all of the mess? In fact, since the whole track is so long, you would get your attention pulled away. The original OT8 on the Freewinds did not really have the two or three dozen processes that one needed to handle all that Hubbard said in History of Man and in his anti-Christ Bulletin. So the procedure was very simple. One was instructed to do e-meter reads to find common areas to audit on the dynamics. This was very simple to do and one could easily come up with a list.
                  I used processes that I had learned in auditor training and in reading The Creation of Human Ability. This book was really the key to original OT8 on the Freewinds. History of Man was just a reference. I recall pulling out several processes and using them. I matched the list of reading items with all of the processes I pulled and then ran them. I also was actually instructed at one point to use some standard Dianetic auditing processes that had been around for years. The other reference books for OT8 on the Freewinds were the books like 08,88008, etc. I don’t remember the names. In fact, the first one 08, I remember, had more processes in-depth that you could use. I did not care one lick about Hubbard’s idea to be the anti-Christ so I left that alone. As far as the purified bodies are concerned, I used History of Man to develop some processes to get into the ideas of the genetic mutations. I would need to ponder that area to get specific. As far as the GE auditing is concerned, that was major and took the longest time. It involved all sorts of criss-crosses with random numbers on the second dynamic. This was wild. I finally got to the point where all of the dynamics were exactly the same. No need at that point for “amnesia on the whole track” There was no whole track. Hubbard’s illusions vanished by his own sword. So you don’t reach “Freedom from amnesia on the whole track”. You reach freedom from Scientology. I say this but no one believes me.
                  GMW

                  • I believe you. I also believe if what you say is true, you were set up to program and C/S yourself, and design your own OT level to run on yourself.

                    • Path of Buddha

                      Yes, you are tracking extremely well.
                      I was treated like royalty in the months before OT8. I attended many briefings. First of all, History of Man was selected as the textbook for the level. We were told to read it and get it right. I put a lot of hours into every detail. Second, we were told over and over that the level was unique in that it was for you personally. This meant that I was prepared for something like a lot of freedom to just sit back and tell all my secrets. It sounded like one was being set up to actually do the work. Yes, we were set up to take the lead on the C/S. They kept telling us to remember auditor training. They kept saying that is was solo auditing and that we were advanced and ready to take a bigger role in our case. I personally do not think that anyone on the Freewinds had the intention to blow us out of Scientology. We were told that we would be the new leaders and that we would march to clear the planet. I took all of this seriously. In addition, I had listened to the PDC tapes about 60 times during the cold winters in Canada for three years. I had them almost memorized. They said that Hubbard’s prior books like Scientology 08 and Creation of Human Ability would be helpful. I devoured them. The senior tech people were serious. They never anticipated that so many would just go dumb. I ate the whole thing up. All I ever thought about was Hubbard’s statement that he directed us for a time but that we would one day walk alone and leave him. I had no idea what that meant. I read the anti-Christ Bulletin on the Freewinds. One thing stood out. Hubbard had it wrong about original Buddhism. I had been to Malaysia,Korea, Thailand, Japan etc. I met with monks. No way he was the Buddha. His anti-Christ gig did not bother me at all. I went back to the simple C/S I got. It gave me carte blanche to find these items and to run them. I got the impression that the C/S did not care what you ran as long as you got TA. I confirmed this with others a few weeks later. I got massive amounts of TA. I mean massive. The beast was loose. I was running what I wanted. I ran all of the things on my list and each session review came back with like “continue” or something. I felt like I was the conductor in a big train that was getting faster and faster. Suddenly, the fear and understructure of Scientology just vanished. Oddly enough, it vanished because I saw the contradictions in Scientology as bigger than my own fears. In other words, I did not need Hubbard anymore. This is why I never asked for a refund. This is why I never went for the re-tread. I was happy. They delivered what they promised. It was not what they wanted. Miscavige never spoke one word to me. I was gone in a few months.
                      GMW

                    • Given your education, You may have gotten more from the level than anyone else who did it! Wow, this was very interesting to read. And this:

                      “Oddly enough, it vanished because I saw the contradictions in Scientology as bigger than my own fears. ”

                      Had me laughing until my gut hurt!

                  • It also seemed to me, that anyone that had run whole track, already had freedom from amnesia on the whole track. I don’t have whole track amnesia . But if I did and it was a complaint of mine or an item for me, that could be handled on L12. Who / What would have amnesia? You would go for the identity. You can wipe out your entire case on L12. Who / what would have a case? It is connected to some identity. Have you ever noticed how many people do not have “a case”?

                    • But EVERYONE, who is a Scientologist, has a case, and a case folder. But if you join staff, you are not allowed to bring your case to work with you. “No case on post”.

                  • Valkov esnowl@juno.com

                    George, didn’t Hubbard say from the beginning that in the end scientology itself would be as-ised and left behind? You make 2 OTVIIIs I know of who have publicly done so – you and Geir.

                    • Path of Buddha

                      Valkov,
                      Yes, Hubbard did say something like that. However, I think he meant that one would “as is” it with fond memories of correctness. In other words, the journey would end. I don’t think he meant that you would see the flaws and reject it. After Scientology, the journey begins.
                      GMW

                    • Valkov esnowl@juno.com

                      OK, thanks. I don’t know, not having done the Bridge. There may be a paradox implicit here, that it was doing the Bridge which brought your awareness up to accurately perceiving scientology and rejecting it. Somehow I feel being CSed for designing your own final steps through OTVIII was a key factor. Apparently you no longer felt any need for scientology, and I think that is what Hubbard meant by his remark about it.

              • And watching people leave from environment is very interesting. But you can categorize what to expect next in their life. I can not lay it down here. But there is the section that dismayed with the results of letting others think for them. That comes in under “culture of complaint”.

                There is this other section that creeps across the landscape selling, “Let me think for you” services. And they copy a similar beingness to the Church and attract people who still need someone else to think for them!

                • Path of Buddha

                  Oracle wrote:
                  “Scientology is not a perfect organized system. Hubbard said it was workable. Some of it is not. It is not workable at all. Much does not align or fit together. The ethics and justice tech, I mean geeze. ”

                  No greater wisdom has been spoken about the subject of Scientology. You cannot take the pieces of Scientology and fit them together like a puzzle and get a workable picture. After seventeen years in Scientology, I reached that same conclusion. This inability to fit the pieces together is a result of “seat of the pants” research. Hubbard did not start out with a workable system. He tried to evolve one. The trouble is that he got into side-shows. If you take pieces that do not fit together, and try to get a picture, you get problems. You get into the original OT8 if you are not careful. Once you reach original OT8 you get contradictions. You get to see the flaws in Scientology. If you do not see the flaws in Scientology after original OT8, you get very sick. Your mind will overload. So getting me out of Scientology was not intentional. It was the result of trying to get it to fit together. The higher you get, the easier it is for some to see the flaws. “Awareness of awareness” is faith? It is impossible to see Hubbard as a Buddha despite his firm implications of it? You cannot have “soul” and “no soul” reconciled by exteriorization?
                  GMW

              • But I don’t why people get so upset if they have to find out some of this stuff does not work and is disorganized, and if they need to figure out WHY.

                Who wants to be involved with something where you don’t have to get in and work the puzzle? People outside of Scientology have to do this all of the time. It does not bother me that Hubbard overlooked things, said things that were not true or sold things on people that did not work. Hell, the board of education does that across America. Do you know how many parents I have seen throw a school text book against a wall? Then sit down and tutor? O worked ad a kindergarten assistant one year and the people in schools have to sort things out every day, even the kids, in kindergarten. They don’t throw hissy fits.

                One of worst ideas Hubbard put out was the 2d co audit. And I do not think David Miscavige had one with Shelly when he kicked her ass off the base. And I do not think Hubbard had one when he offloaded Mary Sue. In the years I worked at the base I never saw something that killed love between two people worse than that. And it is not about the overts and with holds, it is about inserting a cop or chaplian into that dynamic. It is not a 2d anymore, it becomes a wierd 3d like a ménage à trois.

              • Anyway, some folk are not taking the “Rolling Stone” chapter of their lives very well.

          • Oracle – Thanks for mentioning the Hare Krishna situation. I wasn’t aware of that. If I recall correctly, joining that group requires surrendering any and all of your worldly assets to them. I don’t know if they still require that.

            • Well, I hung out at the Hare Krishna Temple in Berkeley California off and on for about six months. They had an open table dinner policy, and also let me crash there when I needed to. From what I saw then, the people coming into the movement didn’t have any worldly possessions on arrival to give up, like me. I never joined or chanted, they just helped me to be nice. I did borrow 5.00 from one of them that I never repaid. I was 13 years old then. Not that that is any excuse. I was out exchange with them. I did make it up to the Hare Krishna Temple in Las Vegas via my friend there who is into it.

              I have friends now that belong to the movement and they are business owners. Many people are part of the movement and living outside in the world and carrying on. They still own all of their things, have homes and families. It has changed and adapted to the wants and needs of people.

              “Whereas devotees formerly were discouraged from maintaining ties with the outside world, including their own families, Hare Krishnas today mix and mingle like anyone else and don robes and Sanskrit names only while at temple for services.”

              http://www.bvml.org/CE/40.html

  60. Now that I’ve rid myself of unsavory attitudes and cognitive dissonance carried forward from scn, I find myself more appreciative of things I learned. After all, scn was not entirely Ron’s baby – lol. Many brilliant thinkers contributed and who knows how much was a rewording of earlier valid knowledge.
    Hubbard’s name was on the bottom of everything if for no other reason than copyright protection. Also, of course, auditors doing their own thing in session would have resulted in “no tech” so the red on white policy letters had to be followed.
    Let’s face it. If dianetic auditing didn’t provide the belief in or experience of past lives, scn would just be a pseudo psychology or self improvement group.

    • You have learned we are all a bunch off….

    • singanddanceall

      ah Richard, you said –

      “Let’s face it. If dianetic auditing didn’t provide the belief in or experience of past lives, scn would just be a pseudo psychology or self improvement group”

      well, lets consider that Richard. Dianetics boomed in the beginning because of John Campbell avenue in Astounding Science Fiction. You ought to read the Campbell Heinlein letters at the time as I mentioned to George above.

      The next great boom of Dianetics was Jefferson Hawkins ads on TV in the late 1980’s.

      Marketing would be the key underlining reason. Hawkins, I forget now, said something like 10,000 DMSMH sold per month when the Dianetics ad’s appeared on TV, don’t quote me on the figure.

      So one has to ask themselves, all those books sold in 1950, and later in 1980’s period, which was much greater than in 1950, where are these people?

      Ron said the purpose of Marketing is to create more want than the org could waste. That’s telling.

      But, alas, who are the 270 people Ron “cleared” as he claimed in Dianetics book?

      • Hi Singanddanceall! – I was just going to post some thoughts about going Clear and here you are mentioning it – lol

        I was on the Dianetic Drug Rundown and all my basics were going back to a metaphorical “Sea of Theta”. This was like a sea of champagne with each bubble popping up being an individual thetan. Any AESP (attitude,emotion, sensation, pain) tracked back to an initial consideration there. Anger=another bubble rudely bumping into me. Sad=a bubble I had affinity for leaving etc. etc. etc.

        At some point my co-auditor wanted to run a previously reading item. I just laughed. “Joe, there’s nothing there! – It’s just a joke!” Floating Tone Arm, off to attest to Dianetic Clear. Someone else might have had a completely different experience and I would not feel invalidated. The experiential reality was that I need never be affected by my past. Just look at the consideration behind an unwanted item. In my present life I would not intentionally harm another. If I unintentionally do so, I make amends.

        I was in the “No Interference Zone” when the monthly price increases began. Not for me, so I blew. I would expect that the amount of introspection done on hundreds of hours of solo auditing on OT levels would produce many insights, but I don’t regret not doing the OT levels. With my one track mind and imagination, I might have landed at Target 2 – Laughter!

        Someone once gave me a cassette tape from a squirrel group called Avatar. It included one of their sessions. Their approach was why bother running endless chains of engrams. Just run the considerations.

        I think the claims for Clear were intentionally exaggerated. Hubbs was a good barker. He knew the claims would get large or huge (he hoped) number of people curious. Most people blew off, but there were enough real benefits to get a lot of people hooked.

      • Dianetics.
        A structured, methodical examination of one’s past.
        A sound principal with occasional excellent results.
        Needs more work.
        Mark

  61. I keep forgetting Marty Rathbun is a journalist, but never no more.

    I demand journalistic thinga from him 5 years from now

    let them raise the little guy.

    Of course I will never not take Marty (Mark) Rathbun seriously on any occassion.

    I salute Marty Rathbun the Freelance Journalist

  62. Vincent – Don McLean

  63. I’ve received a lot of back lines emails the last few days asking me questions or asking me to clarify the point the point I was making about ethics and the Church’s ethics codes. It is simply this:

    Ethics is making decisions which benefit the greatest number of dynamics.

    The fourth dynamic would carry the greatest weight as it has the largest number of people in it. Scientology is not the fourth dynamic. It is a third dynamic.

    The ethics and justice codes in the Church, exclude the fourth dynamic as a potential value to weigh. And in fact, demand that you not embrace the fourth dynamic in justice, press, civil matters and other matters and issues regarding the third dynamic of Scientology.

    You therefore, can not make decisions for the greatest good for the greatest number of your dynamics, with these justice codes. They actually prevent you, from making decisions based on the greatest good for the greatest number.

    This makes the ethics and justice codes in Church, unethical.

    • And, as the justice codes in the Church demand that a Scientology give full regard to his third dynamic, and zero regard to his fourth dynamic, the justice codes in the Church are not just.

      The conditions of existence put forth in the ethics book are valid conditions. But there are other conditions above the condition of Normal, that are not marked by affluence or having, but by being and doing. This is omitted data. Ghandi did not come into power through having a lot of extra mest.

      Power is not always a high condition and is not the highest condition. A lot of people in power have done bad things. They were liabilities. A small fish in a big pond has a larger sphere of influence, than a big fish in a little pond.

    • O.K., if you are a Scientologist, and you have pledged allegiance to the ethics and justice codes of the Church, and you are not permitted to be ethical by making decisions for the greatest good for the greatest number, chances are, you go to bed at night thinking,

      ” But every morning’
      I wake up and worry
      What’s gonna happen today
      You see it your way
      And I see it mine
      But we both see it slippin’ away.”

      I hear you. When you can not make decisions based on the greatest good for the greatest number, you can be forced to live under stress. It’s like not being able to do a budget and remain solvent. And you have to wonder when you will be taxed.

      Heading off to the southern hemisphere right now, so just know, you can know about me. I really did give the Scientologists, the best of my love. You can go read the venues of those that did not and could not and never did..They are still out shooting out here at anything warm with a heartbeat.They have their own way of surviving. Please do not confuse me with that group. I just do the accounting and lay it on the table.

      • I will always have pride of ownership, in who I was, who you were. And what we did. I will never give that up. It meant everything to me.

        • Because whatever went wrong with our tools, or our trust, our hearts were in the right place. That is as right as you can ever be.

          • A Go Go bar in my town has an enclosed outdoor lounge where the ladies can go outside and relax and have a smoke. On one of the walls is painted this quote: “Well behaved women seldom make history.” Marilyn Monroe

            • Well Richard, I am curious to know how you found out about this lounge and what is posted on the wall there. I have faith you have found good company.

              When you can take down 1500 – 2K a week dancing to good music, and being loved by all, you are at the apex of it all. That is no joke. You are very close to heaven on Earth at that point.

              I knew someone like that, that got involved in Scientology. Was hugely resented for her income basis, even though it was part time aside from dancing as a professional in Broadway shows. But I heard she only had to have her ruds flown twice in auditing, all the way up the bridge.

              She was so controlling, she arrived at the club one hour before show time with a briefcase full of 45’s. And the manager would empty out the juke box and let her install her own records. Or, she would arrive with her own CD for the DJ.. She was the only go go dancer in all of the tri state New York / New Jersey area that had control over the music in clubs she danced in.

              She was a fan of Marshall Crenshaw , and dating a rockabilly singer named Robert Gordon. She convinced Gordon to record a song of Crenshaw’s that sent him to the top the charts. On “Someday Someway” song/ sound track. Robert hit it big and headed out of town. Dedicating the song to her. But, she wasn’t “The one”. And she was the one that made it clear.

              A few years later she walked into a party at a Staten Island apartment with a Rottweiler on a leash. The dog went obediently under the table she sat at. She held court with what nots. About forty minutes later, another lady walked by the table and the dog lunged at her. Some fellow sitting nearby the table reached out and grabbed the dog’s leash dragging it to the ground. Saving the intended victim. He chewed her out for being irresponsible, and he was loaded himself. He pulled her out of herself. She escaped.

              A month later her doorbell rang. It was that guy. She invited him in and thanked him. There was a table in the foyer. She invited him to sit down. She made tea and some trivial things to eat. She put these things on the table between them.

              He talked about things she did not hear. She was “elsewhere”. In a “Scientology mind”. he made noise with the words for about thirty minutes and she finally cut his comm. “What do you want from Me?” She said.

              He lunged across the table and grabbed her shirt and pulled her across the table knocking everything off. When her face was four inches from his he said, “I want to own you”.

              He pulled her out of her “Scientology mind”. Maybe, she went clear of that. And truth be told, it seemed to be a better mind. Because at that point, that woman did not give two fucks about what ever happened in her whole existence about whatever happened, before that moment.

              Maybe it was some other kind of clearing process. What would I know? I am only relaying what I head from her.

              AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAnyway, Flag World Tour arrived a few months later and someone wanted to know from that clear, that CLEAR, “What is ruining your life”?

              She said, “I’m down all the way. No interest in Scientology. I am in love with a DB, drug addicted, no stats, no responsibility, off and on heroin addict, music producer. This man has enough theta for both of us. ”

              They called in the troops and ejected her from the situation and she wiped out her bank accounts to rise above it. Arrived at Flag to be called a “pool pig” as a public. Choked it down in personal sacrifice and humiliation. Paid for a lot of ethics training and auditing. That woman never danced again.

              Joined the Sea org to be more” valuable”. Only to find out six years later she was just being pimped by this stupid little fukn white man named David Miscavige and she was in fact, setting people up for losses instead of helping them. Yeah…..a fkn criminal. Like that wasn’t a loss?

              I personally feel, like I paid the biggest price. I was tossed out on the street at 14 years old in a violent rain storm, because I said something negative about Scientology. I had to learn to live on the streets of Manhattan. When I came in two years later, I really was fucked up and had a case to handle. I only came in to get my emancipation documents in exchange for getting through HQS. I was bought into the Org so my mother could prove I was an S.P.. When I actually had wins, she blew.

              I gave up 16 years of my life and everything that could and did have mattered in it. Not to become “better than others’. But to stop being a liability to others. I put everyone in Scientology in front of myself until the day I had to face I was being asked to be a criminal.

              Anyone else could have easily died from the heartaches I embraced. And I admit one of them almost killed me.

              And I still do not feel like coming out here and brutalizing and humiliating others and degrading others and shaming others to make them pay for me and my choices.

              Some of you people are real fkn selfish and self centered. When you harm others it is not about Scientology. Some of you fks could have been in the cub scouts and turned the experience into a tragedy.

              Every time I take I take my attention off the Internet and all of this conflict, I make money. LOTS OF MONEY.

              People out here do not even respect the fact that my time trying to help them, costs me money. Costs Marty money. I communicate for hours and weeks and get declared ” a drama queen” and outed to chop my income lines on one forum. The person outing me? Sponsored by the tax payers of Maryland. A ward of the state of Maryland.

              Listen, I have had the opportunity to “go back” and I say with complete honesty, the people I have left behind are still waiting for me to come back. But not the people in Scientology. Once they throw you under the bus your ass is history.

              Someone could get to the bottom of this shit if they just came out and said, “The people that get involved with this Scientology shit are a bunch of ruthless ungrateful self serving lot of of cunning manipulative mother fuckers that can not watch anybody’s back but their own. ” And you know, that would not be far from from the truth. There are treasonous mother fuckers in this Scientology business. I don’t know why.

              Because in spite of all of you, for all I traded on a gamble, for all I gave up, for all of the humiliation,for all of the losses I was set up for, I profited in ways I never could have foreseen.

              And part of that profit was to watch one other, one other, human being rise from these ashes who gave away so much more than I did and give up so much more. And still remain a decent human being. I saw that person Marty.

              The abuse towards your fellow man out here is not about Scientology, it is about you. When I have a bigger reason to harm and I do not take it, I know. 99% of the people out here whaling about Scientology have no idea what it is like to suffer. People that did not spend 0.1% of their life invested in Scientology are fair gaming Marty? Come on for real?? Where the fk do you get your power to condemn from?

              I really feel for his efforts to bring truth down the streets while bystanders with no invested interest or sacrifice, nip as his heels like vacant dogs.

              I spent so many years of my life as a minority in neighborhoods, where I did, i did go blank every time I had to fight. I “blanked out”. During these “episodes”. And it became problem when I would “unblank” and realize I really hurt someone. Whereupon I would stand and take a beating before I would surrender to a blank out to hurt someone else. I took the hits. I survived.

              People survived Scientology. And became brutal vicious bullies that kicked others and I, I have tried to talk them out of this and I could not.

              I have refrained many times from reacting to people.

              I have been able to respect people that left Scientology and still kept their sense of honor in dealings toward others, even though they really were brutally betrayed by that group. Like Mick Wenlock. There are people who’s stories trump my own in losses. Because children are involved and I have no rights above theirs.

              That some people move in on top of my misery in all of this and try to profit, while knocking me in the dirt, is unacceptable. Sorry if I do not lay and die, That is not going to happen.

              At the end of the day, people like me have weak voice and a huge hope.

              • You people that are out hurting others, please stop it. Marty’s platform was up to help others. Mike’s platform is set up to help others. For the love of God can you stop hurting people? take it in 12 hour slots if you can. Take 12 hours where you will refrain from harming another human. No mater what the invitation. Just make it through that first 12 hours. Make that your first goal. If you can not handle that, it does not matter what banner you sail under.

              • Hey Oracle! – You’ve been in the thick of scn interaction and debate for years and have kept your integrity. VWD! Some people out here like me think you’re a pretty cool chic!
                The Go Go joint is actually only a block away from my house. On Sunday they open late so my shih tzu and I take a walk there. One of these days I’ll check out the inside, but really, going into one of those joints ends up with 20 or 30 bucks out of your wallet and “excitation without gratification” – laughter!
                I gotta get back to work but I’ll listen to the tune later.

                • Thanks Richard. Cheered up here. Sent a friend from Texas who is in prison a copy of Marty’s book. He has three kids. Got a note back today thanking me profusely. It is now being circulated around the prison and there is a waiting line for it. He’s asking me to send a few more copies.

                  Laughter on the go go joke. You have a great summer!

  64. Path of Buddha

    Oracle wrote:
    “Had me laughing until my gut hurt!”

    Quick! It’s contagious! I started laughing about OT8 for the first time in almost twenty eight years! My new vocabulary word for the week is catharsis. The Greeks had it right after all. This material could make a great movie. It could be like Ghostbusters Revised. There could be Lucifer, the anti-Christ and a pedophile Jesus.
    But on a more reasonable note, I now think about how my mother bore my Scientology with silence, dignity and style. So even a few weeks early, I chant:

    May all mothers be well and happy!
    May all mothers be well and happy!
    May all mothers be well and happy!
    GMW

    • “Ghostbusters Revised” – LOL – I hope Alex Gibney reads this post. If he gets interested in doing a semi fictional documentary, actors playing Tom Cruise and David Miscavige might get nominated for an Oscar!

    • May all writers have a thousand tongues!
      May all wanders remain brave in heart to wander!
      May all Viking souls have a seat in Valhalla!
      May all magicians practice with good will!
      May every noble heart be lifted by the Valkyrie!
      May every explorer find reward!
      May every seed bear edible fruit!
      May every truth find home in open hearts!
      May every mercy fall upon the hopeful!
      May every sunset take with it the past!
      May every farmer lay his head to rest!
      May every child be welcomed with want!
      May every woman be wanted and welcomed!
      May every man be blessed with good company!
      May every bad man be a little good!
      May every good man be a little bad!
      May every sinner be forgiven!
      May every saint get back in heaven!

      • Bravo!

      • Very nice, Oracle – Inspirational – A poet’s eye sees much sadness, but also sees hope and joy.

        In my younger years I fit the wanderer category. I was hitchhiking to California to learn how to surf and got as far as Salt Lake City where I eventually landed in the Salt Lake City mission.

        Some people don’t know that Salt Lake City sits right at the western edge of the Rocky Mountains which were a great place to get stoned!

  65. Path of Buddha

    Valkov wrote:

    “OK, thanks. I don’t know, not having done the Bridge. There may be a paradox implicit here, that it was doing the Bridge which brought your awareness up to accurately perceiving scientology and rejecting it.”

    It is probably wise to divide the OT8 completions into groups based on the version they did. For example, some who complete Miscavige’s version might
    leave and just go into a holding pattern. Others might try some other path. There is only one common denominator that I have observed. It is that most feel that they got involved, completed the level based on an inner drive, and are happy to be out.
    In my particular situation, I was happy to complete all of the practical levels, drills and courses. In other words, I was happy to pay for what worked and was usefull. As you get higher up the bridge, there is a very subtle pressure at work.
    It is difficult to describe, but Oracle might help. In my own words, it is that you get pressure to give yourself up to the cause. You are asked to donate more money, more time. You cannot have an excuse. The trouble is that the higher you go, the “weaker” is the tech. You get to the point where the weakness of the tech is evident and they are “hounding” you for more money and time. IMHO the reason OT8’s leave is simply this dynamic at work. In my situation, you get to make a choice between your own life or making gentically pure bodies for Hubbard. Hubbard worked on the age old theory which says the following:
    1. Start with 1,000 people.
    2. Weed out those who do not follow your command
    3. Get tought weed out more (sounds familiar?)
    4 At the end you get 2 or 3 Napoleanic guards.

    In my situation, I left at the top of the known pyramid. The implicit paradox
    is like 15 foot neon letters at the end.

    GMW

    • Valkov esnowl@juno.com

      Thanks for summing it up, George! That’s pretty much what I sensed, back in the day, that kept me out of the CoS. It kept getting more and more “churchy”. It is as though at some point HUbbard lost the thread of freeing beings, and picked up the thread of, actually trapping beings for the sake of creating and establishing an organization that would then perpetuate the tech of freeing beings. That was the paradox to me. And from 1982 on, the people I knew and respected were being declared or just leaving. Actually some of them, before 1982, but that’s when it accelerated. Since then I have seen it as 2 phases of Hubbard – 1. codifying the auditing tech, and 2. establishing a temporal organization to preserve and deliver the tech. However he did indeed fail, if the CoS was intended to be the organization. I actually have doubts about HUbbard putting all his eggs in one basket, given the existence of Ron’s Orgs and other offshoots; I think he let Captain Bill go with his blessing, while he focused on the CoS. I think Hubbard may have had a dispersal in mind as a means of “letting the toothpaste out of the tube” quite a ways back. It is the kind of plot science-fiction writers of his age traded in. Or he may have simply been as fallible as anyone else.

      But the paradox is there for me, of trying to create and establish a lasting temporal organization that would deliver “freedom” to many people while eschewing it for themselves. It seems like the dichotomy is “freedom for others, a billion years of damnation for me”. It was not something I wanted, as much as I wanted a lot of what I saw as “the Bridge”, at least through Clear and maybe the original OT levels. although those were producing mixed results back in the 1970s, from what I saw. Evidently there are now plans to get these consistently delivered in the independent field.

      • Path of Buddha

        Valkov wrote:
        “I think he let Captain Bill go with his blessing, while he focused on the CoS. I think Hubbard may have had a dispersal in mind as a means of “letting the toothpaste out of the tube” quite a ways back. It is the kind of plot science-fiction writers of his age traded in. Or he may have simply been as fallible as anyone else.”

        Hubbard was thirty five years older than I. When I entered in 1972, he had a massive amount of information in books, tapes etc. I think he knew that he could blow off anyone he wanted. The mass of his “tech” would always attract new people. He was the original. After trying it, I found pockets of great benefit. I was thus driven to master his style. In the end, I think he was still the science fictions author. He had a prolific side-line.
        GMW

    • Valkov esnowl@juno.com

      Excellent Regraded Being cartoon on Mike’s blog today – http://www.mikerindersblog.org/friday-regraded-being-43/
      where one of the characters tells another, “if you don’t learn quickly that sometimes you need to apply total control on others in order to save them…” captures it perfectly.

  66. I read that Op Ed referred to in the post above. I think it made some good points.

  67. Marty, I would welcome a post you commenting on Prince.

  68. Prince died, Marty you are a reporter, make it matter.

  69. Scientology was a very early symptom of ‘us vs. them’ thinking in America that manifested right after the World War II.

    America was sucked into a paranoia created by itself.
    .

    • singanddanceall

      I think Jesse Prince is right:

      http://princejesse53.blogspot.com/2016/01/us-army-documentary-film.html

      check out this documentary Jesse refers to:

      • Yes, Jesse is right. World War II was the beginning of a trend that is still going on and worsening. Solutions are badly needed, and Scientology is there and pitching in with its solutions.

        Unless somebody comes up with better solutions, Scientology is here to stay. If it is not supported by public, it is going to be supported by the government. Simply because other solutions to handling increasing trauma are lacking.

        Scientology seems to provide a seemingly easier “mass solution” than psychology and psychiatry. Those who think Scientology is on its way out, should rethink.

        I am working on sharpening up Buddha’s message on mindfulness. Please see

        Mindfulness Exercises
        .

        • singanddanceall

          sorry, you are missing the point of Jesse, which is simply where hubbard got his ideas for dianetics.

          Did you notice in the beginning it stated in print the methods worked for acute cases, and not for peace time of a chronic nature?

          • Yes, I did, and I agree with that too.

            That is why Dianetics simply gets the low hanging fruits. Scientology was an effort to get the fruits that were a bit higher.
            .

    • Path of Buddha

      Hi Vinaire!
      Great to hear from you.

      Vinaire wrote:
      “America was sucked into a paranoia created by itself.”

      I need to defend America. Yesterday I met a “boat person” from the Viet Nam war. He and his people came with nothing. This man made it. He was looking at a $375,000 house. He was very polite. He was very grateful for his opportunity which he described as “from the best country in the world”. Ironically, 1968 at the beginning of the Viet Nam War, marked the best equality in income we ever had. Lyndon Johnson and fearfull Evangelicals turned America into a war against godless Buddhists. America spent billions trying to prove that its system was superior. The Peace Corps failed. But it was not America “sucked into a paranoia created by itself”. The people took to the streets and Johson resigned. It was religious extremists who were rejected by a new generation of godless materialism. These people were ensnared by extreme Capitalism. I was in Seoul Korea in 1969 during the Viet Nam war. There was one three story concrete building in the entire city surrounded by thatched roof huts. Look at Seoul today. Can you call Americans “sucked into a paranoia created by itself”? The truth is that the people of America sleep and allow trends to get out of control. Once the problem is recognized, solutions are implemented but always after the fact. That is how a democracy works. It is not perfect. Some of us keep watch.
      Scientology was such a minor player. The movement was a pain that flourished for a short time as Hubbard’s venture capital project. It failed. Hubbard was a misplaced science fiction writer who followed Aleister Crowley. The entire population of Scientologists can only fill 25% of a minor football game on a Saturday. In truth, Hubbard tried to trash America. He was not even close to an American in the mode of “us vs them”. Hubbard was rejecting America.

      • Hi George,

        It is great to hear from you too.

        Let me modify my statement as follows, “America is getting increasingly sucked into a paranoia created by itself.” Since you say, “The truth is that the people of America sleep and allow trends to get out of control,” let me use your vocabulary and say, “The people of America are asleep and are allowing paranoia to increasingly control their emotions.”

        In early 50s it was the fear of communism and atomic war that led to McCarthyism. Scientology took advantage of that trend to start making money by controlling minds. That trend resulted in the Vietnam war and then the Gulf war. It then went further out of control with unilateral actions to change the regimes in Iraq and Libya. The efforts are currently underway to change regime in Syria.

        These karmas have resulted in the formation of groups like ISIS that are experts in creating horror. It is a dwindling spiral of paranoia generating more paranoia.

        You cannot close your eyes to this worsening situation due to actions taken by America as a country.

        The business of Scientology is flourishing with this trend. It may not be so visible, but Scientology is very much there telling politicians that it has the solutions. Increasingly, the politicians seems to be listening and this is not good for America.

        .

  70. Path of Buddha

    “The business of Scientology is flourishing with this trend. It may not be so visible, but Scientology is very much there telling politicians that it has the solutions. Increasingly, the politicians seems to be listening and this is not good for America.”

    Let me be the first to get in touch with the politicians who are listening to Scientology. I know Mitt Romney loves Battlefield Earth but he does not support the religion. Who else? I will call tomorrow.
    GMW

    • George, Yes, please do so.

      For me it is not that I know of politicians who are listening to Scientology. But I have seen reports that Scientology has been using its celebrities like Tom Cruise to lobby at very high offices in the government.

      Knowing Scientology, I am convinced that Scientology is capable of having its way at governmental levels, especially when the mental health situation and the situation with education is worsening in America.

      It is just my take. Your take may be different.

      • Path of Buddha

        Vinnaire,
        I think that the new book about Miscavige (Ruthless) is going to change a lot of ideas about Miscavige. He hit his Waterloo. Cruise might be really on the run for the first time in his life. Just my opinion.
        GMW

        • It is not about Miscavige or Cruise. It is about the lack of soultions out there, and desperate situations will make people resort to desperate solutions.

          • Path of Buddha

            Yes, we are hitting a turning point. The conquest of the electromagnetic spectrum will, in the end, only result in chaos. Like when the Roman empire in the West fell in the 5th century. The Russians have invested billions in new military technology. Fear still rules. If Hubbard had not made Scientology a religion and stuck to just helping people, I think there would be some exchange between government and Scientology. At present, it is hopeless. No one wants religion in government.

            GMW

  71. After watching the Adyashanti video entitled “The Deeper Meaning of the Middle Way” posted by Miraldi above, I have a few thoughts.
    I once had the experience of “Everything is the way it is, just because it is, and everything is already alright, already.” More simply stated, “It is what it is.” – Time track unimportant – the need to change anything irrelevant. What good it did me, who knows – laughter
    “Who am I?” might actually be a no answer question. I think I’m getting the gist of Oracle’s explanation of L-12 above. At some point the whole idea of valences/identities would become irrelevant, which would seem to be the non-dualism no self.

    • Wow, Richard. Awesome example of direct experience.

      It wasn’t of that magnitude, but I had a similar experience one time: I KNEW that a thought I had just had was simultaneously had by everyone. It was only some time later that I came across the idea that all conscious beings are one consciousness – or Oneness.

      I should add that, for me, “Oneness” doesn’t necessarily translate to “no self.” I do like the Buddhist idea mentioned by George (Path of Buddha) stated – that the soul is “nearly permanent.”

      • In the background literature of Alcoholics Anonymous it’s mentioned that some sober members of AA, I’m not sure which, experimented with LSD in the early days. It was seen as a possible drug to treat schizophrenia and they hoped that it might produce that “moment of clarity” when an alcoholic realizes he or she is totally defeated and totally gives up and surrenders. Of course it didn’t work that way but they tried.

        I think Adya is saying that seekers will come upon experiential realities. Above Brian who is a bit of a sage (understatement) says “Self/no self? Just words.” So I don’t take everything Adya says whole cloth, as Hubbs would say. I listen and many things indicate to me.

        • “So I don’t take everything Adya says whole cloth…”

          I don’t think Adya looks at “self/no-self” in a dogmatic or fundamentalist way either. He explains it pretty succinctly here:

      • I also think that “experiential realities” may not necessarily be sudden and dramatic. Just one morning one wakes up and realizes “I understand it, I feel it, I know it, I got it!” – laughter.

        Maybe what needs to follow is letting go of it! No sense in trying to continually “rehab the release”.

        • “I also think that ‘experiential realities’ may not necessarily be sudden and dramatic.”

          Sorry to bombard you with videos🙂 but Adya is asked this question at about 2:45 in this one:

          :https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wL08qI7WqYs

          • I’ve been listening to Adyashanti each evening for about two weeks. So far I’m tracking him well and haven’t found disagreements.

            However, just to play devil’s advocate, you might admit that accepting that dust, a tree, a human body and God are all the same thing might make some people go spinny – laughter

            It doesn’t throw me since I like Zen puzzles. One critic in the comments said something like “This guy is just talking nonsense to make money.” Another said something like ” How am I supposed to not be I when I is thinking that?” laughter

            Also, somewhere on one of the tracks he says it might take 3 to 20 years to settle in after “awakening”. Patience!!

            • Richard: “Another said something like ‘How am I supposed to not be I when I is thinking that?”

              He would probably be even more mystified if he duplicated the idea that “I” is just a collection of thoughts – a fabrication – a synthetic construction – that has a “life” of its own.

              I loved what one youtube commenter had to say about Mooji: “He doesn’t even have a regular job.” LOL!

              “Also, somewhere on one of the tracks he says it might take 3 to 20 years to settle in after ‘awakening’. Patience!!”

              Yeah, exactly. But think about it – this energy construction called the ego has been accumulating energy unto itself for a v-e-r-y long time. At least that’s how I see it.

              • Excellent perspectives, Miraldi!
                Here’s an over simplification for you. Thetan, spirit, soul and even self are synonyms. You either reincarnate or you don’t. There’s no such thing as a little bit pregnant.
                Have I missed something here? Laughter!

                • Sounds right to me.🙂

                • christianscientology

                  Hi Richard

                  Yes I believe you have missed something. As I would understand it there are two of you. There is the Richard that is aware and the Richard that is aware of being aware. This is Eckhart Tolle’s basic cognition. Up till his mid-thirties he was aware of being depressed and suddenly it occurred to him that not only was he suffering from depression but he was aware that he was suffering with depression, and realised that there were two of him and that he could choose which one he wanted to be. So I am not sure how it works with pregnancy but you can certainly choose which you want to be, the one that experiences negative sensation or the one that is aware of the awareness of the sensation.

                  As I see it THETAN is the equivalent of SOUL, spirit is synonymous with THETA. A thetan has a small amount of MASS whereas THETA is that which creates MASS so in its essence has NO-MASS. Hence SPIRIT does not REINCARNATE but SOUL does.

                  Love with ARC
                  Pip

      • Thanks, Marildi.
        This long existence of Brahma ( Creator God) is, of course, a result of good Karma. This is one of the keys to the Buddhist notion of existence. Gotama Buddha said he was the teacher of gods and men. Human existence with awareness of awareness is the rarest of opportunities to make it to enlightenment. I don’t want to get into the similes, but human existence is a gift. Gods made numerous visits to Gotama. The problem with a god in Buddhism is that the being has limited awareness of the correct path to enlightenment. There are stories in the Canon where the Buddha encounters a god and the god just can’t get it. There is also an encounter where the god says “OK” and then goes back to his party!. In this sense, Buddhism is very, very different from Christianity. If you are a good Christian, you go to permanent heaven for a reward. No so in Buddhism. If you are good with good Karma, and you do not reach enlightenment, you go into a godlike state which is impermanent. You burn off your good Karma having fun. You might tehn fall into a lower existence. Brahma ( Creator God ) was really, really good but not smart. In fact, the gods in Buddhism are almost dumb. Humans can be smarter. This morning in my front yard a palm tree was dropping the tiny leaves from its seed producing section. These tiny light leaves were scattered by the wind. This is the simile used by the Buddha concerning this mass of gods which return. They can fall anywhere and are in a random pattern.

        • George, thanks for the additional fascinating and thought-provoking data.

          From my understanding of basic physics, I can’t help but wonder if all of creation – i.e. all of manifested reality, both “physical” and so-called “non-physical,” such as souls and gods – is nothing but energy patterns that are in some state of evolution in accordance with universal laws of physics.

          Descriptions of the soul and gods of all kinds would thus only be metaphorical or mythical, as they would all fit into some inevitable stage of energ