Tony Ortega was questioned by one of his followers on my exposure of Tony’s sleazy, dishonest reporting the other day on My Scientology Movie. The inquirer purports to be a full-fledged bunkeroo, and law school graduate. She also regularly trolls my blog, slavishly pandering to Ortega. Here is the thread:
Tony, Marty claims that you misquoted him. Or maybe it’s that you didn’t quote him enough. You only printed 1/20th of his response.
Your post says you asked him about his recent posts.
His post said his response to you “cognitive dissonance and paranoia”) was in response to another question of yours.
Maybe I am a glutton for punishment, but is his entire response worth posting?
Tony Ortega Mod Chee Chalker • 3 days ago
Sorry. Not going to be baited into publishing material I can’t make public.
I made public what I can at this point.
Tony Ortega Mod Tony Ortega • 3 days ago
And no, he was not misquoted.
—
I never said Ortega “misquoted me”. I actually wrote the following in response to a commenter on my blog who suggested that I am responsible for Ortega’s sickness by not answering his questions: “Ortega never asked me about my review. He published 1/20 of a response to an entirely different question. Clearly, he owns you.” Ortega was in fact challenging me on my use of the term “ASC”, while hurling abusive accusations at me.
In either event, Tony goes on owning Chee Chalker and the rest of his sheep with claims of insider knowledge that justifies/validates his ongoing innuendo campaign: “Sorry. Not going to be baited into publishing material I can’t make public. I made public what I can at this point.”
That is how he kept his faithful drinking his Kool Aid during his four-month campaign against my family. He claims insider knowledge that he is afraid of the consequences of sharing. Another part of my answer referred to above that he only published 1/20th (as you’ll see, it might have been more like 1/100th) of out of context, confronted Ortega with that very sleaze tactic he is so fond of. To wit,
“If inventions of this kind are required for you to understand my posts and the use of the term ASC, your mind is far more infected with cognitive dissonance and paranoia than any scientologist I have ever encountered. You are also a coward and liar. You represented to your readers on several occasions in writing that you know what actually went on [with Monique’s lawsuit], but couldn’t disclose it at that time. That was stated in response to several people speculating as to milder motives on our part than you projected. You used definitive statements as to your insider, undisclosed knowledge to forward your hate against us. I knew you were lying then. You have now confirmed that fact in writing below.”
The “inventions of this kind” referred to had nothing to do with My Scientology Movie or anything Ortega claimed it was in response to.
Some of the published comments by Ortega during his anti-Rathbun campaign that I was referring to here were:
“I know more than I can say.”
and
“I know what happened. What you propose isn’t it.”
and
“I have some details that I can’t talk about yet. I will when I can.”
It has been nearly five months since he implied that he would put up or shut up – and as per usual, he instead lied and has done neither. He continues perpetuating the fraud with more of the same dissembling conduct.
There is no difference whatsoever in the tactics Tony Ortega regularly uses to warp his followers’ minds than what he accuses the object of his obsession with. Kettle, meet pot.
Moving On Up a Little Higher 
Yes, Ortega is now a card carrying purveyor of bull shit. sarcasm and innuendo. When I posed several questions to Steven Mango regarding the Theroux movie, e.g. how did he (Mango) know what Chinn and Mark Rathbun discussed prior to his (Mango’s) involvement in the film? and why I should believe his view of “truth” as to what occurred, and dismiss Rathbun’s, Ortege accused me of running the “Truth Rundown” on Mango, and attempting to make him believe he didn’t see what he saw. Nothing was further from the truth. Ortega’s snide and unwarranted comment revealed he is indeed a one trick pony yellow journalist, who exists only because of manipulation and subterfuge.
Chee Chalker alter ises so fast even he can’t understand what just happened. He’s just apprenticing under Tony Ortega. They are both as vital to the nation as the California drought.
Oracle, I’m a lady.
I haven’t ‘alter-ised’ that much!
Reply to Chee Chalker ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Steven Mango is likely being told by Theroux what to say.
AJ
By the way, a legal observer is:
Legal observers are individuals, usually representatives of civilian human rights agencies, who attend public demonstrations, protests and other activities where there is a potential for conflict between the public or activists and the police, security guards or other law enforcement personnel.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_observer
I wonder who these numerous legal observers are. Because the only human rights activists and agencies protesting near Tony Ortega are the ones in for of his office at the Village Voice sex slave trafficking.
I’m just curious, since you seem intent on proving Marty is dishonest and has not been forthcoming, have you been totally honest, and is there something you haven’t told him?
Theroux is likely estate planning and focused on receipts.
I never said “how much”. Did I?
I said you do it “so fast” you can’t understand what just happened. But my comment got posted at 7:42 and I did not see yours until an hour 3 minutes later.
Did all that happen slow enough for you to realize, that you changed my meaning?
Tony Ortega was claiming to have attorney/client privileged information about Monique and her private conversations with her attorneys, and he was telling his Bunkerites that he would give them this privileged information “off the record” if they showed up at his upcoming HowdyCon in Ohio.
He’s cleaned all those comments out of Disqus now. But every Bunkerite remembers them.
I’m sure, at the time, he wasn’t really realizing what he was actually saying. He just was a little full of himself, pretending to his followers that he knew the “real story” of why Monique dropped the case while largely ignoring and distracting his followers from what Monique herself wrote to the court.
And Tony wanted to use his “insider information” to get more people to show up at HowdyCon.
Now think about this for just a second: Tony Ortega was claiming to have private attorney/client information about someone’s court case, and he was dangling that “information” out to people to get them to come to his party.
I ask this question to the Bunkerites:
What would you think of Tony Ortega if he did that to your wife?
Alanzo
Wow. Thanks for sharing this.
Further to my comments on the last thread, let’s look at how the truth gets distorted in another “anti-” community, the people who watch North Korea. We all know NK are the bad guys. But this means that any insane lie about them peddled by South Korea gets instantly accepted as fact. Compare this to how any story about Scientology or M. Rathbun gets believed by the ‘ASC’:
http://38north.org/2016/09/aabrahamian090216/
If this is true, then it is disgusting.
How did Ortega obtain this privileged attorney/client information? Did he get it from the Rathbun’s lawyer(s)?
This gets really dirty.
I have been following scientology after seeing the BBC Sweeney thing a couple years back. Since that time I have read a number of books, watched documentaries, and followed a number a number of sources.
I have always felt that Ortega, and his followers, have been excessively rude, a lot of posts are immature and in bad taste. Then, as I recall, he started asking for donations and copublished a book which he marketed quite heavily.
I posted some changes moments such as these on The Bunker questioning their behavior. Immediately I was was accused of being a scientologist, someone tracked down back my account that I posted from, etc.
It’s weird, he has his own sort of cult following.
For the record: I am not a scientologist, never spoken to a scientologist, etc.
Sorry for the long post,
Bob
From what I gather Mark wishes to transcend beyond this whole “fight” and I wish him and his family all the best.
It’s true.
Tony even admits to it today in the comments section of his blog.
Bob, this is a good contribution from someone who apparently started out as a neutral party.
This mythical anti-$cn community that you and others on this blog continue to refer to as if it were an actual entity in the real world is so vaguely defined and broadly conceived as to be meaningless, except for the purpose of burning down strawmen.
At first glance, that overly broad construct fails to distinguish two qualitatively different ways in which a group could accurately be said to be “anti-scientology”. There are those ex-official cherch members who continue to believe in the efficacy of “Ron’s Tech,” but believe that the cherch has been hijacked and its mission betrayed by DM + evil minions. Then there are those of us who reject, not only lil davey the savage and the direction that he’s taken the cherch in since usurping power, but the fundamental efficacy of the tech itself — a much deeper and qualitatively different form of “anti-scientologism. So, the construct is ill-defined from the start at such a fundamental level that I have no idea of whether or not I’d be included under that title.
Beyond that obvious point of fundamental confusion, the so-called ASC is not a membership group like $cn, or any other actual group that you might care to describe as a cult, because it has no internally-defined requirements for membership or explicit rules affecting one’s ability to retain membership. Instead, it’s an extrinsically-created category rather than an actual self-defined group, and one which is so ill-posed that anyone who wasn’t already familiar with $cn’s history and splintering would be at a loss to understand it.
Others have made this same relatively easy to understand fundamental criticism of you folks’ use of that term in explicit detail and along similar lines, yet so far, no one has chosen to respond to the specific points raised. Why is that? They seem to me to be almost self-evidently valid, so why the reluctance to engage in a debate that Marty began, then you and others happily jumped aboard? Making up stuff that has no actual basis in reality, then just asserting at volume and through sheer repetition that it does, is a very scientologically sound way of proceeding, but one that’s decidedly at odds with the way the rest of the world engages in civil discourse and debate.
Indeed, I’m beginning to think that because the term is so obviously vague, overly broad and ill-posed, that it’s continued use – as if it actually had meaning and designated a real world group – may reflect more of an intent to further divide, rather than to find common ground. If that’s an incorrect assumption, then perhaps one or more of you could explain why?
Which brings us back to the concern about the peddling of “insane lies”. While it’s always a good idea to hone close to the truth and to avoid the inaccurate demonization of any group or individual that you oppose, haven’t these two almost universally despised and excoriated groups pretty much demonized themselves through their consistent pattern of violence, coercion, threat and extreme human rights abuses of their own members over lo these many years? I’d sure say so without a moment’s hesitation. To use a term from the legal world, it seems to me that they’ve made themselves “libel proof” through their own extreme, brutal and thoroughly evil actions. In both their cases, the term “insane” seems much more applicable to these two group’s actions than to the words of those who’ve been victimized by them.
To me, what obviously seems to belong in the foreground of any discussion concerning either N.Korea or $cn are the “insane lies” and truly evil actions that they have consistently engaged in, instead of any of the relatively inconsequential verbal exaggerations that their victims might have made.
Besides, in the case of both of these groups, almost any heinous human rights abuse that you could possibly imagine has already been documented as having occurred. As such, the unfounded ascription of additional horrors may prove inaccurate, but they could hardly be accurately described as “insane” because both groups have proved themselves capable of the most heinous and evil treatment of their own group members already. When both of their histories have been exhaustively detailed in some future time after their collapse, I’m certain that other, as-yet undocumented horrors are sure to be revealed.
Taking down both of these scourges of humanity in the most humane way possible should be Job #1 for all who care, NOT squabbling about inconsequentials or fanning the flames of past butt hurt while sharpening long knives in the anticipation of future opportunities for revenge.
How is that not crystal clear here?
Did you read Tony’s response?
He made other claims which seem incredulous to me.
Note:
nu·mer·ous
ˈn(y)o͞om(ə)rəs/Submit
adjective
great in number; many.
synonyms: many, very many, a lot of, scores of, countless, numberless, innumerable; several, quite a few, various; plenty of, copious, a quantity of, an abundance of, a profusion of, a multitude of; frequent; informalumpteen, lots of, loads of, masses of, stacks of, heaps of, bags of, tons of, oodles of, hundreds of, thousands of, millions of, gazillions of, bajillions of, more —— than one can shake a stick at; literary myriad.
Note:
Legal observers are individuals, usually representatives of civilian human rights agencies, who attend public demonstrations, protests and other activities where there is a potential for conflict between the public or activists and the police, security guards or other law enforcement personnel.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_observer
Quote:
“On Monday, at his blog, Marty Rathbun stated outright that there is no settlement… We’re told by numerous legal observers that Ray Jeffrey and his team won’t take Marty’s word for that but will engage in due diligence to make sure that there isn’t a financial deal — a financial deal that they would be entitled to a large percentage of.”
Tony Ortega
Who are these numerous legal observers Tony consulted with? His Texas spectator? Whom nobody knows? Chee Chalker? I would love to know if the person under the moniker of Chee Chalker who claims to be a lawyer, has a personal line with Ortega beyond being reader and comm enter on his blog. Because Chee has put a lot of effort into efforts to discredit Marty here. It would be interesting to understand the dynamics behind this. Such as, is Chee one of Tony’s go to people for legal crystal ball telling?
Here, Tony indicated to all of his readers, Monique was only money motivated. Otherwise, just “cryptic”. Because of an attorney (un revealed to anyone) that he spoke to. The supposed attorney knows the only purpose for the law suit, even senior to Monique!
“There was one somewhat cryptic sentence in Monique’s motion filed last week, however, which made us wonder about that.”
“My husband and I have effectively achieved the primary purpose that the lawsuit was originally intended to serve by our own independent efforts,” Monique wrote.
“An attorney pointed out to us that the “primary purpose” of a civil lawsuit is to recover damages, so was Monique saying that she — and her husband — had recovered damages in the form of a secret settlement?”
Did she say that? No. Nobody said that in fact, except Tony Ortega.
I understood the purpose of the suit was to obtain a restraining order, and use the legal arena to get these Church people off their backs.
But Tony tells his readers otherwise. Not Monique. Tony.
I would be curious if Chee Chalker was or is, any of the numerous legal community Tony Ortega appeals to for wisdom? And if so, if Chee could share what input she has had on this conflict?
Craig, I think they did try to “move on” and move out of it. I did not see Marty post on his blog for almost four months. The thing is, they started to follow and stalk them. Until finally some, “unnamed influence”, had local papers in Texas doing the same thing. Which had a bearing on their immediate social climate.
It got the point that, in order to hold onto some piece of them, the folks on ESMB tracked down his home address, and posted photos of their front yard on the forum, stared longingly at images, and spoke endlessly, of where they were and what they could be doing. Like fans grabbing onto a piece of clothing or grabbing a handful of hair. Buying some article of clothing at an auction to hang onto.
I think the fear of losing them, was some kind of trauma. They can’t let go of them. When they try to move on, they are chased and grabbed at. The ones on ESMB who devote the most time and attention to fair gaming him, are the ones who most continue to mock him up, if he tries to retreat. The ones who seem to have the most hate.
He bought a lot of hope, a lot of truth, and lot of spirit to the people out here. If fact he established the roots for these platforms by having courage, speaking out, facing things head on. He put promise and hope back into a lot of hearts.
I don’t think anyone ever thinks about the fact, people are stuck on him and unwilling to let go, not because of ill will. But because he represents hope, courage and change. All of these independents are practicing without terrorism on their door steps, because of the heat he took while others had time to establish roots.
They will not let go of him, because they love him.
You look at Tony’s membership / reader stats since he turned on them. That really says something.
A lot of people don’t even understand why they do the things they do. But they understanding having something and not wanting to let go of it.
Tony has been a squeak toy. He has been making all the noise and out on the front lines leading the charge against Marty. But you can look at where this has gone for him, and it has not gone well. No matter how he considers himself a “Scientology expert”, he can never claim to be a Scientologist expert. There are things he will never understand about these people as whole nation. No matter how often people lay themselves at your feet and permit you to walk over who they have been, what their hopes were, how they spent and invested their lives. No matter how hopeless the regretful they become with in despair. They never blow out the candles of their visions, hopes and dreams. They just always keep that last bit of candle, hidden in some drawer in their mind. It is always there, and has been since the beginning of time. It isn’t even scientological. It is spiritual.
I think Tony had support, or he would not have fired out like a lose cannon. But his back up crew have left him dangling in the wind. Again, he does not understand the nature of ill will and treason. Just like Marty was laid on the hot plate to sizzle, They laid Tony out too.
He has been getting his ass whipped all around the block, his flock is still applauding him in hope. But not because of any facts about the implications he so enthusiastically laid before them. Nobody who set him up, is on the front lines to own it. Or to take any of the heat. he has been the actual trouble source. But there have been close conspiracies.
Marty and Tony were both set up to take a fall.
But Marty wholly understands the Scientologist. Not JUST, the parts of them they could best live without, and wish they never knew about themselves. But the part of them that understands invisible dynamics such as hope, will, a perception of higher powers, other powers, real justice and the urge to really know. These are intrinsic qualities in every human being. But someone who has explored the invisible within and with out, has the volume on this turned up just a notch higher. Even your Sunday Baptist Church goer. They are just thinking with a few more dynamics which gives them a broader understanding of life and the manifestation of life.
But Tony has had a front seat view over the years. And he had every opportunity to observe, the more someone tries to suppress Marty, the bigger he grows.
He finally faced the C of S with it’s billion dollar resources, “beautiful and talented minds”, and “squeaky clean” spirits, with every bullet they had, and parked them neatly back in the garage with a spanking.
Did Tony really think he was going to come out on the block and be “the one”, to drive a nail in Marty’s coffin? From his underground bunker with his blog? With the help of over re stimulated witch hunters?
I could feel sorry for him, the way he was set up.
But he should have had better sense than that.
He should get back to spitting on the activists with disdain while churning the corporate profits for a commission. He isn’t cut out for leadership. Not even political conspiracies. And this has been nothing but, politics.
Harpoona, You are very well spoken, articulate and even witty.
But your declaration:
“Beyond that obvious point of fundamental confusion, the so-called ASC is not a membership group like $cn, or any other actual group that you might care to describe as a cult, because it has no internally-defined requirements for membership or explicit rules affecting one’s ability to retain membership.”
It Is not crystal clear to me. ESMB is a membership group. There are policies and rules. They would rather have you dead than emotionally available. They will never betray you as long as you are one of them. Meaning, you do not separate yourself from the herd. There are many bonding dynamics within that groups and it’s members. Mainly, hopelessness and a purpose to punish.
Tony Ortega has “subscribers” and even an Org Board. He summons others there to do his bidding. He has a crew of “tipsters”, informants, and a trained crew of investigators to dig for documents and intel. He also has fans. And as he himself says, an entire committee of “numerous legal observers”. He also had wide and broad resources within the media culture of yellow journalism. Yes, this group has many members as well.
You write: “To use a term from the legal world, it seems to me that they’ve made themselves “libel proof” through their own extreme, brutal and thoroughly evil actions.”
Are you a part of the legal arena? And in what capacity does that apply to one or more of these people?
Very curious.
Thank you for your input.
Ortega has no idea what true and factual journalism really means. Does even write about anything else? Does he actual work?
Harpoona Frittata: “At first glance, that overly broad construct [what you had described as “this mythical anti-$cn community”} fails to distinguish two qualitatively different ways in which a group could accurately be said to be ‘anti-scientology’. There are those ex-official cherch members who continue to believe in the efficacy of ‘Ron’s Tech,’ but believe that the cherch has been hijacked and its mission betrayed by DM + evil minions. Then there are those of us who reject, not only lil davey the savage and the direction that he’s taken the cherch in since usurping power, but the fundamental efficacy of the tech itself — a much deeper and qualitatively different form of ‘anti-scientologism.'”
The way the term “anti-scientology” has evolved in use would not describe the first group – which is simply anti-CoS. The second group you described is the one most of us have in mind when we use the term. And, IMO, the “fundamental confusion,” quoting you again, begins with there being no differentiation made between the church and the tech (or core scientology – the subject itself). It’s all referred to as “scientology.”
With regard to membership, there are many other “groups” out there without formal membership (e.g. liberals, the middle-class, even many who call themselves Christians, etc.). each of which is commonly thought of and referred to as a group. So your idea about membership seems like an arbitrary – and perhaps a “pat” way of dismissing the fact that many posters on Ortega’s blog come across like “members” of a cult.
You also wrote: “Making up stuff that has no actual basis in reality, then just asserting at volume and through sheer repetition that it does, is a very scientologically sound way of proceeding, but one that’s decidedly at odds with the way the rest of the world engages in civil discourse and debate.”
To my mind, you’ve described the posters on Ortega’s blog – much more so than the ones posting here. The are far less civil.
Quoting you again: “To me, what obviously seems to belong in the foreground of any discussion concerning either N.Korea or $cn are the ‘insane lies’ and truly evil actions that they have consistently engaged in, instead of any of the relatively inconsequential verbal exaggerations that their victims might have made.”
Agreed about the similarities of N. Korea to the CoS (not “$cn”), but not all groups go to those extremes, yet can still be deplored for various reasons – even for the way you characterized posters here and I felt better fits Ortega’s posters.
More importantly, your comparison of the CoS with North Korea – in kind and not degree – is stretching the admittedly bad situation in the church to such an extent that you sound like many Ortega posters.
And unfortunately for Tony, his readers, and all who watch and would really care to learn and expand from this social intercourse. The only person capable of sitting down with Tony Ortega and educating him about how he got played, and therefore his flock as well, is Marty. Tony will never step beyond the lines he himself has drawn in the sand, to understand and know. That would require some honesty and humility.
And the power brokers that be, assessed his weakness’ in that department before they set him up as a pawn.
I will just note that Harpoona Frittata, while angrily denying that there is any such thing as an anti-Scientology community, talks about “you folks” who claim there is, thus positing a, what, an anti-ASC-community?
They also angrily assert that Scientology is an evil org that needs taking down. I would agree. How is that relevant to the whispering campaign against M. Rathbun for disagreeing with majority anti-Scientology opinion?
Also, “libel-proof” is surely lawspeak for “Fair Game”.
Excellent points.
This.
Close. In short, the King of Trolls got checkmate trolled defending his ridiculous ego. He castrated his main money source, his greatest referral source, and his last line of defense – all in defense of his pathetic image.
“It got the point that, in order to hold onto some piece of them, the folks on ESMB tracked down his home address, and posted photos of their front yard on the forum, stared longingly at images, and spoke endlessly, of where they were and what they could be doing. ”
What?!?!
When did that happen? I must have missed that ESMB thread. Is it still up?
That’s horrible.
With what Oracle said happened on ESMB, Mark, I’m surprised they didn’t send a drone over your house and call it a “documentary” like they just got down crowing about over at the Bunker. (Ortega blog post of 7 Sept. 2016).
I may not like the Church (and that’s putting it mildly) but that drone thing seems very, very wrong to me – it crosses a line. I view it as a serious invasion of privacy.
It really expressed the quality of the so-called Bunker supporters, that not a single one of them (not that I saw anyway) even vaguely QUESTIONED the propriety of it.
Hi Oracle,
I’d be happy to answer any question(s) you may have for me. But first I would like Marty to have the integrity to post the response I sent to him (and one response to Mr. Fairman) yesterday (in relation to this post).
Because it is difficult to engage in a one way comm, isn’t it? Marty is not duplicating me and he is cutting off my comm.
That’s not very theta.
Cheerio!
Thanks, I appreciate the kind words!
My father was an attorney, and later, a Superior Court judge, but I’m not involved with any aspect of the legal system myself.
Doloras was drawing a parallel between the anti-N.Korea and anti-$cn movements and I used the term “libel proof” in response to her point there to describe both N.Korea and $cn as being so heinously malevolent that it would be hard to say anything that over-exaggerated that fact.
I don’t think that either Marty or Tony is libel proof.
I’m much less familiar with ESMB than I am with the U.G., and I only occasionally spend any time reading threads there. So, I don’t really have enough background with that board, or any of the folks who post there on a regular basis, to have an opinion one way or another. I have gathered from reading here, and through the cross-talk between folks on the U.G., that there is indeed some mutual hard feelings between the various factions.
I’m a regular reader and fairly frequent contributor to both Tony and Mike Rinder’s blogs, but I’m not really a member of either, in the strict sense of having joined an organization that has explicit rules that must be followed to gain admission and continue to be in good standing. Indeed, all I had to do to post in both was to supply a valid e-mail address, select a user name and follow the standard internet board rules concerning basic decorum and comportment.
So, if we wish to stretch the definition of what a membership group is – which is fine by me – then, at least as it relates to Mike and Tony’s blogs, they are both very low-demand groups, relative to $cn or other high-demand groups, such as The Order, a fundamentalist polygamous branch of the Church of Latter Day Saints (Mormons), both of whom make many demands on their members and have very strict rules which must be closely adhered to in order to maintain membership.
My main point in taking issue with Marty’s coined term “the anti-Scientology community” is that while there may indeed be individuals who fit your description and who must strictly conform there behavior in order to be part of their insular clique, these folks do not in any way, shape or form comprise a large percentage of the folks that I’ve come to know and associate with that fit into the two different categories of individuals that I described previously. So, my argument is more one of suggesting a more careful use of language which does not paint with an overly broad brush all the many gradations of views and beliefs that are represented along the continuum that one could call the anti-$cn community, that’s all.
Indeed, being an “anti-anything” group just begs the question, “Well, what ARE you for then?” And that approach is perhaps a much better way of framing the issue, at least for me, as it orients the discussion in terms of the positive aspects that you’d like to work towards and see made manifest, rather than just focusing in on what’s objectionable. In that sense, I’d prefer to think of myself as belonging to that larger community of folks who are concerned with human rights issues in their broad panoply, but with a specific focus on $cn and its long history of serious human rights abuses and criminal activity.
It’s extremely easy to get into scuffles with folks on the internet unless you choose your words very carefully, and even then the opportunities for butthurtage are legion. The older I get, the less appealing that sort of thing has become for me. So, despite whatever differences in personality or tastes that I might have with folks here or on other boards, if we share some core overarching purpose, I try to relate to them through that and let the rest fall away.
When it comes to $cn, that task is made easy, due to the cherch’s serious, ongoing and myriad human rights abuses and criminal activities. I can easily find common cause with Indies, who still see “Ron’s Tech” as being efficacious and worthwhile, because although I no longer hold those beliefs, our concerns overlap in wanting to see the cherch undergo fundamental reform, beginning with, for example, the restoration of families rights, then leading to the removal of lil davey the savage from his position as self-appointed dictator, and ultimately to the wholesale reform of the cherch’s organizational structure, such that another sadistic sociopath like him can never rise to power again.
I’m simply arguing that the only difference that’s truly important at this point in time is whether or not we share those same views on the restoration of basic human rights within the cherch and the fundamental reform of its current leadership as common goals. If so, then attention naturally turns to the future with respect to forging an agreement concerning the best ways to go about achieving those goals on all the many different fronts that are related to human rights and justice.
If you want to do the things you say – you are literally pissing in the wind by subscribing to the forums you do.
Chee, when you can submit a straight communication that is not an obvious troll job for ya boy, it’ll get by mod. Otherwise, keep pleasuring yourself at Tony’s.
“And, IMO, the “fundamental confusion,” quoting you again, begins with there being no differentiation made between the church and the tech (or core scientology – the subject itself). It’s all referred to as “scientology.”
If I understand you correctly there, you’re saying that is the fundamental confusion that follks who reject both the cherch and the tech share, right?
I’d refer to those folks as having hard-core, or absolutist, anti-scientology beliefs and to myself as having a much more soft-core, or non-absolutist, set of beliefs on the issue.
It’s somewhat analogous to the difference between the right to life/anti-abortion folks who maintain that set of beliefs and values as it relates in practice to themselves, but do not seek to impose their views on others, and those more absolutist ant-abortion folks who seek to impose their beliefs on others as well. I don’t personally believe in the efficacy of Ron’s Tech any longer, but I have no problem at all with those who do, just so long as it’s not organized within an abusive authoritarian power structure. Indeed, who am I to find fault with whatever spiritual practice or counseling method that others find helpful and of value.
“To my mind, you’ve described the posters on Ortega’s blog – much more so than the ones posting here. The are far less civil.”
It’s hard to take a measure of that, but what I guess you could say that none of it is helpful. In that regard, please see my remarks to Oracle concerning a different framing that could be.
“More importantly, your comparison of the CoS with North Korea – in kind and not degree – is stretching the admittedly bad situation in the church to such an extent that you sound like many Ortega posters.”
It’s a fair point. I think that the important difference there is that while the serious human rights abuses within N.Korea are state-sanctioned and pervade their entire society, $cn is an insular sub-culture group that, while using some of the very same abusive mind control practices, is always contained by and subject to the control of a state that does not condone those practices.
Please take a look at my most recent response to Oracle and let me know what you think about that proposed way forward.
Marty can you please replace my post. I clicked the posting button before fixing it post. Here is the correct version:
Ortega has no idea what true and factual journalism really means. Does he even write about anything else? Does he actually work?
It was earlier this year shortly after the lawsuit was dropped. The street view picture from Google Maps was used. I like Google Maps except for that feature.
I am sincere in what I’ve said.
I was aware that you’d come to hold Tony and some of the individuals who regularly post there in poor regard, but I hadn’t realized that you’d come to feel it was totally worthless. And I didn’t know that you felt that way about Mike and his blog contributors either.
I completely understand how it is possible to become soured on a group or an individual to such a degree that it’s almost beyond imagining how that could ever change or be resolved.
But, if the way forward is not to be found in their company, then how do you propose that we find it and in whose company should we travel?
Perhaps after many years and lots of hard and bruising fights, both within the cherch and outside of it, answering that question is less important to you than just finding some peace.
Either way, my best wishes to you for the future.
I’m sorry, I didn’t understand that first paragraph.
“How is that relevant to the whispering campaign against M. Rathbun for disagreeing with majority anti-Scientology opinion?”
It’s not related in the “let me just take a side here and continue the discussion along the divisive lines it’s been proceeding” sort of way at all.
It is constructive in the sense of trying to see a way forward toward achieving what you and I agree is a worthwhile goal. Please see my most recent response to Oracle for more details.
Oh, and btw, I, not angry. When I get angry on the internet I START WRITING IN ALL CAPS AND SWEARING *@#%#$* LOUDLY 😉
No, not all, it refers to those individuals and groups whose reputation are already so horrible that they could never hope to win a libel suit against anyone. I guess one could look at it as an opportunity to go hog wild and vent your inner sociopath, but as it relates to the cherch, and lil dayey, in specific, it’s more to note that $cn’s “sue them all and let God sort’em out” era appears to be coming to a close, based largely on lil davey’s extreme reluctance to testify under oath.
So does this mean you’re not coming to HowdyCon 2017?
😦
Do you normally construct unlikely scenarios in your head, are surprised when they don’t actually happen, and still make accusations against people who never did what you suspected them of as if they had?
In decades of protest against CoS, I don’t think I’ve seen a situation where a critic has invaded the property or privacy of a personal residence, as opposed to a corporate property and place of business, but feel free to be outraged by your fantasy league scenarios that never happen.
Now, issue of privacy at Gold… It’s certainly not the first time Int Base’s airspace has been invaded. The documentary Missing in Happy Valley overflew various properties in the area with a helicopter. Nor has that been the only one. http://www.tampabay.com/specials/2009/reports/project/gilman-hot-springs-campus/ http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2168225/Tom-Cruise-Katie-Holmes-divorce-Inside-Scientologys-Sea-Org-Suri-faced-joining.html Those were from standard aircraft under FAA rules, and while CoS usually went apeshit, I haven’t seen any sanctions against the pilots.
I haven’t seen any sanctions against Google Maps either.
https://www.google.com/maps/place/33%C2%B050'03.5%22N+116%C2%B059'06.4%22W/@33.8334327,-116.9843908,34m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x0:0x0!8m2!3d33.8343!4d-116.9851?hl=en
Hobby drones are new, but in this case, they aren’t doing anything that hasn’t been done before, so I’m wondering where is that line is that you think was crossed? What are the expectations of privacy in our modern world where everyone has has cell-phone camera on the Internet?
Personally, I regret that it wasn’t sooner: back in the day before they hid the running circle around the tree, stopped making people live in tents as punishment, and closed The Hole (that does not exist).
Chee, I do consider it valuable information to know if you have a personal line with Ortega, beyond just commenting on his blog. And if you have contributed by way of his massive legal committee, to advising him.
After all of your accusations here towards Marty, I think it would be fair if you shared that information with out demands, and not by putting it up for sale like this.
Thank you for your clear reply. I am not sure how Mike Rinder got thrown into this mix. He seems to run a “no strings attached” conversation board.
You have some very intelligent solutions. The issue with the Church of Scientology corporation is that it is owned by one man. It is only an apparency that it be a group with “members”. He calls the shots and every one else obeys or else. It is not a group activity. It isn’t even a third dynamic anymore. Once you bounce on it and fly off, you feel the illusion. Might as well walk into Macy’s right off the street and call a meeting Monday morning about reducing prices for Thanksgiving. Some staff would no doubt patronize you until they could clear you out of the cosmetic section and steer you towards the exit.
The “Independent Scientologist”, well, that has come to mean nothing at all unless you are in Israel where they have a standard and fly under a banner. The others do whatever suits them and I can count on my left hand the ones I would still consider Scientologists.
There are groups that liaise with another that are under the radar. And the Nation of Islam hold on to their own identity while using knowledge to assist them with become batter Muslim’s, not, “Scientologists” or other identities that conflict with their own. And truth be told, these are the people that are not having any problems with anyone anywhere. And networking in that community, I was able to see where the “Scientologist” had the cards stacked against them with that identity. Particularly with the demands that they not is their eighth , seventh, and fourth dynamics. many, their first and second also. And have a synthetic third to think with.
I doubt many people,if anyone I know, is interested in inheriting the corporate structures and trademarks David Miscavige owns. he does not have the resources to provide for those indentured servants for another billion years. Not even fifty years.
The few Independents who are practicing, that you could still regard as Scientologists because they maintained some standards, have VAST resources and no liabilities. Also, no replacements.
I think it is not so much the knowledge, but what community you drop it in. And who you give it to. This is why you have a wide spectrum of reviews about it. I would never in a million years push the “Scientology” brand. Any value that brand had or packaging, has been altered into something people fear, doubt, resist and resent.
There is much within that organized system, that is an added inapplicable to most people. Most people have no use for the Sea Organization in their lives. They already have a government with police and politicians. Grown people do not care to be nanny managed by ethics officers. And that is just the surface. One would also need to sift through the body of data and pull out Hubbard’s attitudes and package and catalog and sell those separately for sale as a curiosity item. (if anyone was really that interested).
Some issues that need to be corrected are huge in my opinion. Starting with the basic idea of the dynamics and how they go outward in concentric circles from your first.
You actually start with your eighth dynamic. But that is another conversation.
At one time I would have been willing to devote myself, to organizing a workable way to pass this subject on, where people could really own it for themselves and use it according to whom they are and what they need. But looking at the outcome of the people involved, I do not think it is a good idea to hold or alter that offering. It was there for the viewing. I viewed. I am glad I did. I learned more than I would ever say. I have no idea how 49 out of every 50 people I had to deal with on my journey, turned out to be very bright and caring people that showed me how things could go very right. And not enforce anything on me I did not care to experience or could not accept.
The science of psychometric exploration, is absolutely huge for this civilization. Tony Ortega totally discounts that science as “doing nothing”. But it is being used in medical devices already. It did not come from Hubbard, he was not the author. It came from:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volney_Mathison .
But with people’s driven hate or worshiping towards Hubbard now, hats with visors might be subject for attack or regarded as holy matter.
The emeter uses DC current and measures minute changes in the body’s resistance. The medical device uses AC current (50 KHz) usually. And they average out minute changes.
So I have no idea why Ortega, who is not a scientist, physicist, electrician, physician, or any other type of expert within the scope of that science, can assert to his flock over and over, “It does nothing”.
Based on what scientific knowledge? None, just attitude and a propensity to make nothing out of everything.
I am tested every two weeks by a “wellness coach” (Doctor) with an instrument that uses the same technology to measure body dynamics and values. It has had a very beneficial effect on my life as I have to control cholesterol and keep exact body mass values for muscle and fat. Otherwise I would have had to go the route of drugs. The condition is wholly controllable with this device. This is pure science. Not only is it controllable, I am able to remain in top physical condition way above what is considered, “ideal” for someone half my age.
This is highly beneficial science. Why tell people it does not amount to anything so you can get applause?
There is much value in a lot of Hubbard’s work. But with the auditing, it all hinges on the person auditing the P.C,. not Hubbard. I’ve had a “Flag Trained Auditor show up and my home and deliver 75 hours where he did all the talking. I kid you not. he started every session itsa ing and continued that way until he concluded the session. He was not the first one. I had a class 12 Flag Trained Auditor do the same thing for two or three days. I sat down and the auditor itsa ed for over twelve hours each day.
So, it is not about the tech or the knowledge. There is something far more important that comes before that, with which all else hinges. Information is only as valuable as the person using it. Not only in Scientology, in open heart surgery. In putting up dry wall. In farming. In loving. In parenting. In teaching. The value is more intrinsic than the person who passes on the know how.
Exploring Scientology over many years, I have met many people who were able to make magic happen with the tools at hand.
And I have known a few that could turn an apple tree into a god damned tragedy.
You get to, what comes first, the chicken or the egg? Can you bring a person up to being a thoughtful caring being who will use this well, by helping them first? Or do you tech them first how to help others and hope they will come through?
Hubbard had more faith than all of us combined.
No. I do not think anyone here had any agenda on this blog other than curiosity. Which is why I like to hang around here. It’s very chill, outside of the hecklers.
This entire theater with Tony Ortega reminds me of something that happened to me when I was eleven years old.
I was living in the Haight Ashbury, at the time two blocks down from Golden Gate Park on Haight and Cole. The Filmore West was a few blocks away and in those crazy days, open house a few nights a week. You could go sit in the theater and listen to music and anyone could wander in and out. The entire theater smelled like weed and people were tripping all over the place.
I really had a grudge against Hippies and did not want to hang there. But across the street from me, was a “Hippie Family” that had several girls and we became friends. In as much as they wanted to borrow my clothes, which I managed to obtain through various labor from working in a pet store to selling expired newspapers.
So anyway, the sisters came over and went though my wardrobe on Friday nights. Got dressed up, with no place decent to go. And that was our lot.
One of the sisters was very over developed at eleven years old, and had already begun to have a menstrual flow. We thought this was the most amazing thing that ever happened on Earth. They were all young or younger than I. One was a bit older.
One night they showed up, got dressed up from whatever they could find in my closet. I think their mother was smoking dope with my mother. We were all a resented burden. Any release from that station was a blessing, to redeem ourselves.
They wanted to go to the Filmore West. They finally convinced me. They were actually interested in guys. I did not know why. I was listening to Perry Mason on a television with no picture tube. My crush was elsewhere and I did not like the hippie men. But they dragged me.
It had to be 2:00 in the morning when we walked in the Filmore West. They walked up the stairs towars the mezzanine with me trailing, and stopped on the stairs when a few guys begin to hit on them.
I was kind of a late bloomer and even though I was eleven, I looked like I was nine years old because I was so thin. So I hugged the wall and listened in on the rap.
After about ten minutes, with the girls leaning on the railing and batting their eyes, a semi bloody Kotex fell from the eleven year old’s legs and landed on the stairs. Right in the middle of everyone.
I went into complete shock. I mean, I felt for her. Her pending embarrassment and humiliation. This was bound to blow up any minute! People were weaving all around us and my eyes were riveted on the Kotex laying there. I lost all oxygen. I was actually frozen. Because this was my friend and I did not want her to suffer humiliation in this large place full of the neighborhood society. How would she ever leave her building again? How could she come back out onto the street? I was filled with horror.
Then, I noticed, nobody else seemed to notice. Not even my friend. She was there leaning back on the railing with her head thrown back laughing and flirting and the guys in front of her, who seemed too stoned to notice. I was tripping.
This was the very meaning of a present time problem for me. What to do?
I very gently, reached out to pinch her elbow in a very gentle manner. It took about three minutes to gain her attention because I was the least interesting or useful thing in that building. But eventually, she cast her eyes my way and I glanced violently at the stairs several times until we made, “spiritual contact”, and, she “got me”.
She looked down and I was waiting. I was waiting for her to loose oxygen too. I was waiting for this very moment when she would realize, her eternity in the Fillmore West, had been sacrificed by a Kotex.
She just smiled from the corner of her mouth, and moved her foot over towards it, and kicked it off the stairs through the banister to land on someone below. And continued on smiling and nodding her head to the man in front of her.
I was just fucking amazed at that smooth handling. What a fucking roller coaster ride! I left the building almost dizzy, after I ran down two flights of stairs to retrieve that fucking Kotex and bury it under my coat to get it out of the building.
Some bad things happened after that to bring me off my high with this new found magic. Like, I did not see any of them for three weeks and I finally walked across the street and rang the doorbell. They only had half of my closet at their apartment. I mean, I had interests there.
They answered the door in a mob, suddenly in a total enemy condition. Announcing they were keeping everything they had of mine. And they were not my friend. No remorse, no mercy, not even an excuse as to why.
Behind them was the girl with the slow smile on her face. I was an enemy , because I knew.
It was not the irrelevant issue she had made it out to be. I re stimulated some shame, and she was wholly over run on that. I was another enemy out to shame her with an A=A.
I took the hit. I took the lesson. Every time you point out an inconvenient truth to someone, you set them up for a loss, of illusion. This is a very treacherous path to take, and you never ever walk it for yourself. It is always for someone else. And people will hate you for it.
But Tony is trying to kick the Kotex off the stairs.
He will, have his flock believe and pledge in illusion , before he will ever come clean with correction. How Ironic. It isn’t the cult leaders, it is the followers. He inherited them from Hubbard.
Very interesting
When Tony talks about Marty there are lots of comments, when not quite less….
I fully agree with agree with Oracle. In fact it’s M & M that got Ortega’s blog really going and got people talking about their experiences in a never seen amount….
Ortega already forgot what he owes him…
Nevertheless, there are more important things in life, than discussing in circles and going nowhere. As a Scientologist, I used to do this for 36 years, trying to understand something, that can’t be understood and ending up in nowhere. Mostly lost time and some rare lessons I learned.
I pity those people that are still lost in trying to understand things, that can’t be understood, wasting their time, even when they already left Scientology.
How do they want to destroy the COS ? This is a lost cause. Either it will destroy itself or survive as a strange religion, as many do, But it’ll will never have any big influence onto the world as all the data about their strange practices are known and no sensible people will support it.
I’m fascinated about the title of this blog. It continuously kept going in this direction.
Also…..
Marty’s blog has always been very clear and straightforward about the purpose of it and I think never failed about complying to the purpose (even I don’t agree with Marty on everything).
When we compare it to Tony’s blog..What’s the purpose of it ? There’s nowhere a statement about it.
Is it for entertainment ? Shooting at the COS from the underground ? Is it for money reasons ? Does he want to help people and has a philanthropic purpose ? Nowhere Ortega ever stated what his purpose is, it could be that the day he’ll state it, all his followers are gone….
Why do people support somebody and are a fan of him, when they don’t even know where he’ll lead them ?
i am deeply concerned here. This approach is neither healthy or conductive to any form of healing, spiritual or otherwise. I had determined, or at least thought that, you were attempting to become neutral, allowing your self to finally step away from the limelight of the Scientology nonsense and focus on you new life, wife and baby.
What kind of example does this set? What is the goal? What lasting impression do you want to leave with your readers, and those who watched you for so many years? Because these past few posts of lashing out and hate filled speech, they are unappealing at best, and speak mostly to a truly wounded soul. I feel profoundly sorry for you Mr. Rathburn, what torment you must be feeling to express such negativity.
“…while the serious human rights abuses within N.Korea are state-sanctioned and pervade their entire society”
Are you so sure that “the state” is the source? I’m not, but here’s my real question – WHAT “most recent response” to Oracle? I’m not seeing one. 😦
Virginia
These discussions back and forth I think are almost endless — but I’m going to weigh in with the following:
UNLESS you have watched the entire movie — “Searching for Sugar Man” winner of 2012 winner of the British Academy Film Awards in London February 2012 for best documentary and then winner of best documentary award at the 85th Academy Awards in Hollywood —
You really cannot understand what Mark has been talking about — about “My Scientology Movie.” and how the promises made were not kept and how some just want to keep the controversy alive.
Searching was co-produced by Malik Bendjelloul and Simon Chinn. Mark mentioned Simon Chinn when he addressed this topic of “My Scien…”
Bendjelloul wrote Sugar Man and directed it. Brilliantly. And won awards accordingly. Tragically Malik committed suicide a year after the awards. He had struggled with depression for years.
——————————————-
I remember clearly how excited some key former scientologists were when it was learned that the producers writers and director of Searching were looking to do a film about Scientology.
IF YOU watch the movie — you can see how perfectly (IMHO) this movie *COULD* have been made — which *could* have done the entire topic of scientology and LRH justice.
“Searching” is a compelling story. And you can see, perhaps what Mark had in mind for “My Scientology Story” — even if you don’t watch it — google the blurbs about it.
IF there is one former scientologist who doesn’t still have SOME piece of the tech/admin that FOR HIM OR HER works — email Mark and he’ll give you my email address. I’d like to hear about your story. Just one piece working for you.
—————————————-
I’m not saying the ENTIRE subject. Or even most of the subject. I’m saying a piece. And that piece works BETTER than anything else out there.
HOWEVER — those that want to bury/ridicule/remind/AND PROFIT from the ridicule or the horrors or this or that about LRH/Scientology and the Sea Org — will NEVER let it be admitted that one piece works better than ANYTHING else.
————————————
I left years and years ago — I’ve attended so many buddhist retreats I can’t count them and before that other “wisdom” type retreats — and I have an extensive library which I’ve studied … of wisdom traditions.
AND IF I ONLY GOT ONE PIECE of new knowledge that I can use to unravel my own mind/habits/projections/shadows — I consider the cost of whatever it might have been to be WELL WORTH IT.
———————————
I personally know some of these former scientologists/sea org members and current players. And the saddest thing to me is that some of their personal lives are lies. Resting either on the laurels of their Scientology careers of decades ago or burying under the carpet their own addictions or lack of courage — like water they seek the easiest path, one with the fewest obstacles … some unable to earn enough money to sustain themselves and theirs — they go seek an easy buck. Except that easy bucks are never ever ultimately easy.
Those bucks will be the fodder that causes the fires of hell.
OR so I believe.
WIndhorse
Sorry you took it so seriously. I trolled the king of trolls. He is largely irrelevant now.
Bookmark: “extreme reluctance to testify under oath.”
Sorry you took everything so seriously. The king of trolls got trolled. He’s pretty irrelevant now.
“Do you normally construct unlikely scenarios in your head, are surprised when they don’t actually happen, and still make accusations against people who never did what you suspected them of as if they had?”
With an opening like that, how could you go wrong?
Other than continuing to defend your view that it’s “ok” that a private individual used a drone with a mounted camera.
Or do I have that wrong – it wasn’t a private individual? It was an official newspaper, television station, or other accountable source?
Apparently the trolls don’t understand trolling. Now there’s some irony.
Windhorse, perfectly stated. My take on my 25 years experience in the Church as a public person, has crystalized into the following: It’s defined by the old saw regarding eating Chinese food. It tastes great, it fills you up and a half hour later you are hungry again.
Is Oracle a scientologist? Is that why you are using sci-speak – trying to “reach her reality”? You realize how false and condescending that looks, not to mention just plain nasty.
By acting like that, you’re not talking TO Oracle, you’re talking AT them. If you are actually really wanting to talk to her then I would suggest that you quit coming in from this weird you’re-a-crazy-person-so-I’m-humoring-you angle. YOU look like the crazy one every time you do it.
As to your other point – Mark *is* showing integrity if he feels you are trolling and chops your comments. He wouldn’t be though, would he, if he went against his own view of your moderated comments and allowed them through just to suit your wishes. He’d be *your* puppet then and that would sure as hell not be integrity.
I’m not sure where you seem to have garnered the idea that integrity equals *must allow* others to do what they want, while simultaneously throwing what you want under the bus – if that’s what you think it’s probably a large reason why you can’t get *through*.
I didn’t really take the current kerfuffle very seriously at all, but I do take the larger issue quite seriously.
Could you please say a few words in response to the view that I was attempting to communicate in the last four paragraphs of my response to Oracle?
I was one of the first students at Delphi Oregon when this came out. I had the “best” (lol) stereo there and the one or two other girls and I listened to the LP over and over. “Strange Magic” always seemed highly appropriate for the place, somehow, but apparently I was the only one who got the irony.
Skipping your first sentence which makes no sense at all to me to what you’re responding to, love the end of the second sentence. David Miscavige does seem to rather not enjoy that idea (putting it mildly here) although, really, who could blame him at this point.
Harpoon –
“I used the term “libel proof” in response to her point there to describe both N.Korea and $cn as being so heinously malevolent that it would be hard to say anything that over-exaggerated that fact.”
And she responded by pointing out that apparently “in the ASC” community that extended to Mark Rathbun and that you (or maybe not you specifically but others) are in essence Fair Gaming the Fair Gamers while complaining about Fair Gaming.
Did you not get that?
Not trying to speak *for* Doloras here, I just understood the irony she was pointing out.
It was wrong because a child lives in the house, and his father has been a target. It was yanking the security from beneath them because the law suit dropped , and setting them up to be targets. No, it is not illegal. But why on Earth are these folk protesting about someone else’s behavior?
“Hate filled speech”? Lol… You can say Marty is “lashing out”, but hate filled? I think you have filters on. The hate is on two other sites that I can think of. The real slanderous speech just for slandering’s sake. Post after post of invective, ad homs, and even false accusations based on emotions.
The word “Hate” has been so misused and misapplied over the past two decades. It’s lost it’s real meaning as a result. And the ones, I have found, who are the quickest to scream “Hate!” are the very ones who are usually filled with it the most. Not in all cases. But most.
Very funny about the drone. These folk have no boundaries. As soon as they got OSA off their backs, ESMB stepped right in to continue the stalking and harassment. While whining about abuse.
Lol… I know you’re being a smart ass, but as a smart ass myself…. It made me laugh.
Roger – leaving aside the sock-puppets of various individuals who have an undisclosed agenda there at the Bunker, I think that a number of people there just want to feel like they are a part of something, and that they are “doing something” about human rights abuses.
As to Tony’s intentions and purpose, and why is he so committed to blogging every day about scientology? Now there’s some interesting questions.
Does anyone know if he was raised Catholic?
I ask, because there seem to be a number of Catholic “activists” with a serious axe to grind about scientology, which is quite darkly amusing considering just how much they have in common (particularly some of their darker policies and ideas).
This all almost strikes me as some sort of weird Holy War.
Oh, I see it now. Never mind.
Add – I just don’t think it was a right thing to do, regardless. You can make fun of me all you like RMycroft, but you just verified my original point along the way – which was: did anyone question the ethics of it? Not that I saw (at the Bunker) and I don’t see here that you did.
You cite modern age and all that, but it is still a choice, and whoever made this video *chose* to cross that line, that does still exist regardless of “capability increases” or not.
That’s my view of this “big news” drone footage.
If the bunkerites truly have sunk to the level of thinking it’s ok to Fair Game scientology in whatever form you want to call it, while violating any rights the people there have as individuals? Then they have already lost.
Maybe it’s because they have lost, and they know it. Perhaps they are just muttering to themselves and counting beans until the inevitable finally arrives and it is OVER.
Harpoona, I think Marty is not interested in ” restoring ” anything in the Church of Scientology. That was the item you laid on the table that got rejected, not you. That would not be the way to “finding some peace” for anyone I know. Has nothing to do with answering your question, which he did answer.
However, because of the stand Marty has taken about the abuse and criminality in those halls, others have come forward and I understand the culture inside that universe has changed for the better.
If there is a possibility for salvaging valuable information from that incident, Marty made it happen by taking the heat for years, while grass roots people grabbed what they could and learned it or preserved it.
I think, just from my own viewpoint, whatever the Nation of Islam managed to own, will be put to good use and passed down in that God awareness culture. With care and good intentions. No matter the efforts Tony Ortega invests into fair gaming and shaming their ministers, women and children.
add again –
I know I’m probably banging my head against the wall here, but I would also like to say that I do *not* think that there are not certain circumstances where justice does primarily consist of exposing the criminals to the “light” of their peers gaze. Undercover video footage, spirited out documents etc.
This drone thing just doesn’t quite seem to qualify because it doesn’t actually expose anything. Some people playing soccer? Really? That is *news*? The lawn wasn’t watered?
Where’s the video footage of Miscavige making some under-handed deal with someone notable, things like that?
You know, that might actually nail someone.
Michael you are so witty. I couldn’t stop laughing! Wish you would write a book!
“Does anyone know if he was raised Catholic?”
If you need or just want to know, I think you should address your question to Ortega.
Hi Oracle,
I’ll answer your questions because I have nothing to hide.
Aside from commenting on his blog, I have no contact with Tony.
I have never met him nor spoken to him.
I emailed him once with a question about the venue in Chicago that he used for his book tour and he was kind enough to respond.
I wasn’t able to go to the book tour event because of our annual family lake house trip, so I have never met him.
I have never offered legal advice to Tony, nor has he asked.
While certain areas of law are ‘universal’ (throughout the US), procedural laws vary by jurisdiction.
As I was only ever admitted to practice law in the State of Illinois, I could not really offer insight into litigation in Texas.
Like everyone else, I can speculate and surmise based upon facts and the knowledge I obtained in school.
My specialization was in banking and real estate (commercial and residential).
So if Tony had questions on loan documents or a mortgage transaction in Illinois, then I’m his gal.
Regardless I would not offer ‘legal’ advice as I have long since retired in order to raise a family. Perhaps I’ll go back someday, but not now.
So there you have it. Will you believe it or do you have to wait until Marty’s tells you whether or not to believe it?
People who have nothing to hide, hide nothing.
Others scream ‘troll! troll!’ and call names in order to get you to look away from the truth.
It’s right out of Ron’s playbook.
Wow, that is interesting. You have traveled these halls very well. If you were there when it first opened, you may have been there when I sent my “aunt”. (One of my Grandfather’s illegitimate children). She was kicked to the curb the day after she arrived, because she arrived with a small bag of weed. They kept the 5K though and refused to return one penny. In all fairness, they did not promise to care about the person in front of them. They motivated on her indiscretion instead of using it to turn her around. She was only 15. Half Korean. Were you there?
I had a friend who’s daughter was there a few years ago. She was 15. Got assigned liability for kissing a guy. Apparently they do know a normal condition when it is staring them in the face. It is pretty normal for a 15 year old girl to kiss a guy. This civilization was built on the backs of teen aged women.
Apparently they do not know it is normal for a student to arrive from N.Y.C. with a small bag of weed.
They think it is very normal though to toss these kids in front of Sea Org recruiters when they are 15. The one assigned liability for stealing a kiss is doing hard time in CMO.
lol
Yes, I was there when it pretty much first opened. Aiko? Is that who you mean?
Oh sure. Me at the bunker. Good plan.
I do get your point though. So, do you know the answer to my question? I don’t read *everything* there.
I hear you.
Your ser facs, inval and eval aren’t too healthy either. You could burn a Nun in shame during silent prayer.
Thanks! I appreciate your willingness to engage and respond in a thoughtful and detailed manner…plus, you’re funny 😉
Loved this line: “Might as well walk into Macy’s right off the street and call a meeting Monday morning about reducing prices for Thanksgiving.”
Truly, it’s like pissing into a strong head wind while trying to talk male hyenas out of eating their young at the same time 😉
Your comments on the current state of affairs in independent and structurally unaligned Scientology groups are insightful and informative. I have no contact with anyone in any of those groups, but have often wondered whether Scientology outside of the rigidly conformist organizational structure of the official cherch could thrive and adapt or if it would simply die out. Unfortunately, any group that uses the word “Scientology” in its name or literature, no matter how independent it might be, is going to have a huge pile of negative baggage associated with the official cherch heaped upon it, so there’s really no objective comparison that can be made there.
“Some issues that need to be corrected are huge in my opinion. Starting with the basic idea of the dynamics and how they go outward in concentric circles from your first.”
And therein lies the rub: Most thoughtful individuals who’ve studied the subject to any depth at all quickly came to the realization that it is rife with concepts and principles that are either completely wrong or wholly inadequate, yet the entire corpus of $cn is presented as received truth and an infallible wisdom which can not be changed in even its smallest detail, because to do so would be to commit the highest of high crimes within the completely circular and insular Hubbardian doctrine and belief system. Never mind the fact that lil davey the savage altered the heck out “Ron’s Tech”; he did it by falsely claiming, in true doublespeak language, that he was making it more “100% pure” – hilarious to be sure, that is, unless you’re one of the OaTy 8’s who are re-treading their objectives and having to suit up each more for some very expensive pole-running exercise! (helpful sidenote for those who’ve topped out on the bridge: Save your cash until the powers that be cut loose with the OT 9 & 10 levels, you’ve paid your freight already 😉
$cn is the exact opposite of jazz: It is so rigidly fixed and held in place under threat of punishment and fear of losing one’s “eternity” that no changes to it – no modifications, corrections, additions or alterations to any of it, from now until the end of time – are permissible. Fundamentalist sects within every Abrahamic tradition religion, who insist that their holy scriptures are the direct, received Word of God, have nothing on $cn, which enforces that same literalist belief in the Word of Ron even more insidiously than any of them by making even internal pre-crime thoughts that don’t conform with cherch doctrine into the equivalent of actual acts of heresy.
Quite obviously to anyone outside the bubble, this rigid stance can’t survive indefinitely and must result in the eventual collapse of the cherch in its present form. $cn is like a 100 story impenetrable tower of steel and concrete which is sound-proofed, bomb-proofed and cut off from all outside communication, but built right at the very edge of the shore, where every tide’s turning erodes its foundation just a little bit more. An unstoppable ocean of change will eventually bring it down, but some man-made hurricanes could certainly speed up that process!
” I have no idea how 49 out of every 50 people I had to deal with on my journey, turned out to be very bright and caring people that showed me how things could go very right. And not enforce anything on me I did not care to experience or could not accept.”
You are indeed very lucky to have had that high a degree of a beneficial experience! My own experiences weren’t anywhere as near to being uniformly positive, but I did derive some benefit from them, especially early on in my auditing experiences, However, quite perversely, the higher the level in processing I achieved, the less benefit I derived and the more it cost me 😉 That wide variance along the continuum of “degree of benefit derived from auditing experiences” is one that just begs empirical study. Exactly what is it that is workable about the system, and to whom, under what conditions.
“This is highly beneficial science.” Perhaps a more accurate statement there would be: The application of this applied philosophy of transformation has been highly beneficial to me and for others who I’ve known.
But to call it a science is to give it equal ranking with those fields of mainstream traditional science which all have at their core a foundational agreement concerning the way truth and efficacy claims are to be evaluated, that is, the scientific method. And that’s a foundation that $cn could in no way, shape of form claim to have been established upon. Indeed, Elron’s very early forays in Dianetics included an appeal to science for validation. However, early independently conducted, empirical studies did not bear out his extravagant claims, so instead of revising his system and toning down his claims, then sponsoring additional studies, Elron went his merry way and became a source unto himself, wholly outside of and completely unreconciled with all of the knowledge that was discovered through its methods, and in a variety of related fields, from that very early point on until today.
What was the end result of making that decision then? An old, seriously ill and increasingly demented man whose fullest attestations to the truth of his claims were his own supposed exalted spiritual transcendence, which were completely not in evidence at the time of his death. So, imo, definitely not a science and not effective at its upper ‘advanced’ levels either.
My views here are not intended in any way to discount whatever benefit that you may have derived from your experiences in auditing. Everyone should be completely free to practice whatever religion they like and follow whatever systematic approach to spiritual advancement or enlightenment that they find most useful, just so long as that practice does harm not others.
So, as I understand your position on the subject, we’re both very much in agreement upon the ill effects of lil davey the savage’s sadistically dictatorial regime and the need to not only see that he’s toppled from power, but that the organizational structure of the cherch which allowed this Super SP to usurp and hold power in the first place is also fundamentally reformed. Did I have that right?
As I see it, that’s a very important point of agreement that easily trumps whatever differences we might have concerning our respective positions concerning the efficacy of The Tech. Just as I don’t need to buy into any of the central tenets of Christian belief (i.e., virgin birth, resurrection, water walking) in order to value and respect the charitable acts and positive values that believers in that faith exemplify; I also don’t need to share Scientology’s core beliefs either to find common ground in other areas, such as human rights and justice.
The argument that I’ve been trying to present here over the last few days is just that: There’s absolute no need for those of us who oppose $cn’s current leadership and actions to let our differences divide us if we hold in common the understanding the desire to see that the fundamental reform of the cherch occurs and that basic human rights are respected. Keeping our eyes on that prize, rather than getting distracted by personal differences and past occasions of butt hurt, is the way forward together.
Put another way: Does Tony and his supporters, as well as Marty and his group, all believe that fundamental reform of the cherch’s current power structure and re-institution of basic human rights is Job #1 here? If so, then exactly how does continuing internecine warfare and petty squabbling accomplish it? If it doesn’t, then, umm, what was that higher, unifying goal again?
I don’t mean to speak from on high here, as if I wasn’t just as guilty in getting distracted and engaged in petty shit; I need to be reminded of the fact that what unites us is far more important of a consideration than that which divides us as anyone else. Perhaps we could all just do more of that.
Aiko wasn’t there very long, as I recall. But, Aiko didn’t arrive until quite some time after I had already been there for a while. There were only about 5 of us paying students when I first got there, quite a bit more later (including Tina Turner’s son for a brief stint) by the time I finished every course they had available (high school) I was 16, and I left to go keep an eye on my dad who was joining the Sea Org in Clearwater, Florida.
Ouch! Well anyway, thank you for explaining to us. Thank you for the time you have taken to raise and take care of children. I know the area of legal practice you embraced is a wide area demanding professionalism and alertness. Also mathematical skills and duty motivation. Sorry for my little slurs, I had it wrong. I imagined you were some guy just needling people for pleasure.
As a parent responsible for children, you can probably understand my displeasure with Tony Ortega. And maybe be a little forgiving of my bad manners towards you.
The lake house sounds lovely. I am glad you chose to spend that time with your family and children.
Peace.
The one above that begins with, “Thanks, I appreciate the kind words!
My father was an attorney, and later, a Superior Court judge, but I’m not involved with any aspect of the legal system myself.”
The last four paragraphs of that post are at the core of the argument that I’ve been trying to make here over the last few days and in conversation with a number of different contributors here. The way that the site organizes ongoing conversations doesn’t lend itself to making it easy for other readers to keep track of things.
Since I developed the argument in different ways with different people here, I’m trying to end all of them with the same core argument, so that others can get the gist of it without reading every one of the fairly long-winded posts that I’ve written. So, feel free to ‘cut to the chase’ of anything that I’ve posted to the last few paragraphs, where I’ve attempted to synopsize my argument after, hopefully, adequately addressing the individual points that this or that different discussion partner raised.
And my apologies to anyone who might feel like I haven’t responded to them. The way that different conversation threads are organized in this site’s format are confusing to me. I mean to respond to everyone who took the time and made the effort to read my, admittedly, long-winded stuff 😉
Harpoona Frittata: “If I understand you correctly there, you’re saying that [not differentiating between the church and core scientology] is the fundamental confusion that folks who reject both the cherch and the tech share, right? I’d refer to those folks as having hard-core, or absolutist, anti-scientology beliefs and to myself as having a much more soft-core, or non-absolutist, set of beliefs on the issue.”
Well then, my dear, I believe you’re referring to the largest, or at least the most prominent, faction on both Ortega’s and Rinder’s blogs. At least that’s my sense of it.
Your reply to Oracle was concluded with this:
“I’m simply arguing that the only difference that’s truly important at this point in time is whether or not we share those same views on the restoration of basic human rights within the cherch and the fundamental reform of its current leadership as common goals. If so, then attention naturally turns to the future with respect to forging an agreement concerning the best ways to go about achieving those goals on all the many different fronts that are related to human rights and justice.”
https://markrathbun.wordpress.com/2016/09/09/tony-ortegas-cowardly-invention-of-news/#comment-342997
I do like your approach, HF. However, I think you’re wasting your efforts on certain forums, because I doubt that intelligent readers would pay attention to that type of low-level “discourse.” I’ve commented more than once that I’m glad I don’t see things the way most critics do and call myself a critic, as I would not want to be associated with them! And btw, you seem to have picked up the cultish – or, minimally, cliquish use of certain terms – such as the spelling of “cherch” and the references to “lil’ Davey.” It doesn’t help your message, IMHO.
I also used to play Traffic’s “It’s a Beautiful Day” album, Led Zeppelin, Supertramp, KISS, Aerosmith, and an old Michael Jackson album I had since I was six. I had rather electic tastes in music (lol) Still do.
I also used to play Scott Joplin rags, Beethoven, Chopin, and Rachmaninoff on the grand piano that they had in the chapel back then. THAT was a lot of fun – the accoustics were amazing.
Such a great parable! Loved this bit: ” I was waiting for this very moment when she would realize, her eternity in the Fillmore West, had been sacrificed by a Kotex.”
It’s an insightful variation on the wry truism about how folks are prone to never letting a good deed go unpunished.
Thank you. Coming from you I take it as high praise. I’m more of a visual sort. I’m painting my way out of my house into the street.
With the greatest respect. Michael
My very first, and fairly short-lived, experience as a staff member in an $cn organization was when I joined up to go on staff at Delphi in preparation for its opening. On arrival, they set me to work in the kitchen scrubbing pots and peeling potatoes, but I didn’t sign up to be a very low wage dog’s body and told the powers that be exactly that.
Since young able-bodied men were, apparently, hard to come by, I was re-assigned to do some woodworking projects which were far more to my liking and held my interests for awhile.
I wasn’t there long when they tried to pull one of those Sea Org-inspired all-nighters on me. Some poor chump tried to wake me from a dead sleep and harass me until I rolled out of bed and sacrificed the rest of a good night’s sleep for less that prison industry wages. I don’t quite remember if I threatened the clown who woke me with violence, but I might have. Learning to put my foot down in a decisive and “take no prisoners” manner was one of applications of the Tone 40 drills that I’d completed that no one really could have anticipated 😉
Shortly thereafter, I noticed how well Martin Samuel’s execs were eating and the quality of their quarters compared to ours and got vocal about it. Something about the lack of fresh fruit in our diets, if I recall. Since they weren’t about to change, I figured that I better and was quickly on the road back to California in my VW bug. However, before I left I had my first experience with the infamous “routing out” form which included my first sec check (“I’m not auditing you”). Although I’ll never know for sure, I’m pretty sure that my sec checker dirtied up my needle pretty badly by not informing me of what the hell he WAS doing if he wasn’t auditing me, yet there I was with cans in hand and him staring down at me from behind an e-meter…WTF, so very confusing for a young and fluffy $cn newbie 😉
Oh, I forgot to mention, my experience of being recruited to Delphi staff was like one those classic old war movie scenes, where everyone is lined up in ranks and the commanding officer asks for volunteers for a dangerous mission to step forward. Instead, everyone steps back and if you’re not quick enough you ‘volunteer’ that way. In a variation on that theme, a recruiter from Delphi gave a talk on the place to a group of public folks at the CoS Mission of Davis at Sacramento where I was a relatively new, but pretty enthusiastic Kool-Aid drinker. Toward the end of the talk, instead of asking if anyone was interested in joining up, he instructed all those who were NOT up for joining to leave the room. Lots stayed, not so much out of a desire to join, but more in an attempt to avoid embarrassment and drawing attention to themselves as, umm, quitters or less than fully gung ho Scientologists or whatever.
In any event, it was a dick move, and one of many more to follow that, in time, went from seeming anomalous and at odds with this dedicated and ethical group’s essential nature to seeming like exactly who they were and had always been. I had just failed to catch onto it out of the naivety and gullibility of youth.
I wish I could say that I had wised up to the con right then and there, but like almost everyone elses personal story in $cn, I’m ashamed to say that I didn’t and things had to get much worse for me before I decided to kick my own ass off of the Front Porch of my Eternity 😉
No, I do not know the answer, never met the man. Pursuant to reading “everything” there, that was not my suggestion either. And yes, I think going directly to a source whenever one has a question is always the best “plan” regardless of whether one gets the answer, doesn’t get the answer, or even gets humiliated by the reaction. Asking the question was the correct thing to do, regardless of the response.
Wasn’t the issue with “Searching for Sugarman” that it, too, didn’t tell the story straight? Like, it presented Rodriguez as a forgotten almost homeless has-been when really he’d continued touring through the 1990s?
Um, she could have been using any name. She wasn’t supposed to exist. Laughter! I just know it cost 5K for her to spend the night there. May 1977.
Her father, who was a mover and shaker in Washington, (in civil defense) was livid about the rip off. Given the timing, two months later the FBI raided the Church, it could have helped immensely to have an ally in Washington. At least, not one more enemy.
And I’m sure those staff at Delphi plowed through that 5K patting themselves on the back, for being so ethical and not having a small bag of weed on the premises.
Just like Jenny Linson and her cohorts bobbled their heads around LAX attempting to shame Marty for not doing something beneficial for mankind. While generating the worse P.R. for the Church of Scientology in history.
At least Mary Sue could claim she was fighting back against suppression and had a constructive goal for obtaining evidence. Survival.
What excuse can you make for Jenny Linson and her cohorts? For David Miscavige?
And now we have Tony Ortega, of all people, working to position himself as a hero in the Paulette Cooper debacle. Three decades later. If you look on Wikipedia at her name do you know what is written for her under her bio section?
Her entire bio is that Tony wrote a book about the incident!!!! That is her life!
Biography
In May 2015, Tony Ortega released a book about Cooper, entitled The Unbreakable Miss Lovely.
I’m not fan of Paulette Cooper’s but that is so wrong. Her biography is about Tony Ortega? I can only assume he may have written her wiki page?
They appear to have parted ways over a year ago. Paulette and Tony. At least, he has not focused on her or mentioned her for over a year, aside from a January blurb with regards to selling his book.
And I have no idea how these people come to the conclusion that ethics is a ser fac.
.
You are right, he is the King of Trolls. Well, now I can see where he is an expert at something.
I’ve noticed there seems to be a recent influx of new and intelligent and socially conscious people onto this blog. Really good company.
Maybe this social rift was a good thing. The hecklers have moved east and the intellects and professionals have shifted west. Mostly everyone has distanced themselves from the sadists down south.
Maybe something good has come from all of this, and more good is yet to follow.
It was funny about the drone, as Tony Ortega and his flock just got all worked up about getting real estate photos from a drone to spy. Laughter! Two days, and 2,584 comments of loyal glee dedicated to spting and invasion of privacy. They are like juvenile delinquents. Laughter! You meant it as a joke, but it was really happening.
HF, if I may interject, I believe that virtually every point you made in the above comment was addressed by Marty in this video he made a few years ago:
Marty has undeniably done much to educate the interested public on the abuses that take place within the CoS. He has written books, maintained this blog, appeared in print, TV, and in movies. He has courted the attention and not shied away from sticking his neck out.
So, when Mosey brought her lawsuit, of course there was much interest from the Scientology-watching public. When it was learned an attorney that observers were already familiar with and respected (thanks to the Debbie Cook lawsuit) would be handling the case, of course there was excitement over the possibilities. And when the lawsuit was abruptly withdrawn, even though the plaintiff seemed to be in a favorable position, OF COURSE there was rampant speculation as to what the hell happened. To have expected otherwise was to not be dealing in reality.
Yes, plenty of commenters have made themselves look like asses in the discourse — but what did you expect? Scientology is a highly-charged subject for many.
I personally don’t care whether Marty and Tony are BFFs. I’ve agreed and disagreed with the words and actions of both men at different times through the years. What I do care about is awareness regarding the true nature of the “church.” And on that score, I consider that Marty and Tony both should be commended…… whether Marty is through criticizing the CoS or not.
Thanks, you don’t know, got it. That’s all you had to say in the first place, really.
I will say that if it was truly some kind of burning question for me, you’re correct, I would email Tony and ask him directly, I’ve done that before.
But this wasn’t. It was a more of a thought it was known by others public knowledge kind of question.
My point was more that Sugar Man won 2 major awards because of the screenwriter who was the director and he co-produced it with Chinn.
Mark I believe signed on to the project BECAUSE of the caliber of film that Sugar Man was. Documentary at it’s finest. With a fabulous story.
The director died. Leaving Chinn who brought in Theroux.
And the entire project tanked. A travesty was created. And now ill-spirited and ill-informed others are attempting to pile onto Mark in order to make their bread and butter controversy still interesting.
That — not Sugar Man per se was my point.
Windhorse
Well, I was there in 1977, but I don’t recall someone being there for just one night. It sort of vaguely rings a bell though.
That’s interesting. I wonder if I ran into you when I was there.
Wow.
“No, I do not know the answer, never met the man.”
Ok.
Oops! got confused with my wordpress notifications, thought I had two different people to answer. Sorry Dale.
Ain’t that the truth.
Call me perverse, but I am reminded of the line from V for Vendetta: “I’m merely remarking upon the paradox of asking a masked man who he is.”
“People who have nothing to hide, hide nothing.” coming from a screen name of Chee Chalker is either the epitome of extremely dry humor or a riposte that leaves something to be desired as to it’s level of truth.
I looked at the four paragraphs you mention, Harpoona, in my relatively brief time here, I’ve noticed that Mark doesn’t always answer when he has a number of blog posts already existing along those lines.
Not saying this is like you, but over the years we have had some pretty extreme trolling at our blog. Commenters with names like F***youverymuch at gmail dot com or ihatevirginia at yahoo dot com, who then ask ever so erudite questions like “Hey – What’s new in the reading library?” when that very thing is one of the permanent front page posts – title and all.
The fact that there are obviously people who sit around dreaming shit like that up just to harass someone else? Is just plain sad and such a terrible waste of mind and spirit.
Jeeze louizz. I had no idea what they were dramatizing there.
Did you know Marina from the Davis Mission?
Thank you Oracle!
And I would like to apologize to you too as well for any swipes I have taken.
Have a good week. It’s another school week for us!
Okay. For Harpoona Frittata’s benefit, since they’ve been polite and friendly, I will try to sum up my argument as concisely as possible.
PART A
Of course there’s an anti-Scientology community. Just as there’s a _Game of Thrones_ watchers’ community or a Porsche driver’s community. It’s not a membership organisation or a conspiracy, but a description of something which exists informally. It consists of anti-Scientology activists and those who enjoy watching Scientology shenanigans, who discuss things with each other. Perhaps “Scieno-critical community” (SCC) would be more polite? I believe that Mark Rathbun is arguing that an unhealthy groupthink has grown up on online fora associated with this (the Bunker, ESMB, etc) – and I would agree with that.
PART B
Let’s go through a sequence of events culminating in the last week.
1) Up until now, it has been accepted fact among those who pay attention to Scientology that David Miscavige told a private eye to let his dad die if he was having a heart attack. I certainly believed it without question as it fits with what I know of that guy.
2) Mark Rathbun declared that he didn’t buy that story as, in his experience, DM had never directly talked to any private eyes. Tony Ortega reported this.
3) Bunkeroos/ESMB guys went nuts over this, claiming that this was Marty defending Miscavige and thus proving he was a traitor back on the OSA payroll.
My question: do you think the conclusion reached in 3) above is a fair one? I have no idea whether Mark is right or not. I don’t personally think it impossible that DM might have started talking to PIs in the 10 years since Mark last worked with him. But I don’t think that Mark disagreeing with ASC/SCC accepted truths means he’s a paid agent of evil.
PART C: FAIR GAME
The Scientology definition of Fair Game is an enemy who may be “tricked, sued, lied to or destroyed”. My questions are:
1) do *you* think Scientology, its agents and defenders, may be “tricked, sued, lied to or destroyed” if it would lead to the frustration of their schemes or the downfall of the organisation / putting DM in jail? Why/why not?
2) if Mark Rathbun were a defender of Scientology, would it be permissible to trick, sue, lie to or destroy him? How about just smearing him all over the Internets?
Oh my. That was perfection Doloras.
Thanks for your response. I take your point about using charged and derogatory language.
As I mentioned earlier in another conversation, I’m not a contributor to all of the different Scn boards, mainly just the U.B. and Mike’s blog, and I don’t follow EMSB closely either, so I really don’t have a broad perspective on the entire community.
However, my soft-core anti-scientology position has never been attacked on either of those two blogs and I’ve encountered quite a few others there who also have a tolerant view toward the religious beliefs and practices of others, including Scientologists, just so long as their actions do not involve human rights abuses and criminal acts.
I’m hoping that, despite the obvious enmity built up between different factions, that my fairly simply “eyes on prize” approach will appeal to those who give it some thought and that will, over time, help to form the basis for moving forward together on what most will readily agree is a very important issue. With respect to Scn, about the only folks that I can’t find any common cause with are those who believe that DM is doing a fine job and should be made commodore;) Luckily, I don’t know anyone who holds that view
Having engaged in a lot of discussion on the internet concerning a variety of different topics on which different folks have strong views and decided opinions, I’m struck by both the ease with which the internet allows us to interact and also by how it strips away a number of the humanizing and civilizing aspects of face-to-face communications, often making folks less civil and less kind than they would be if they were in direct conversation with others.
It unites us, but it also drives us apart at the same time. So, I try to keep that in mind, especially in interacting with those who don’t share my views and beliefs. As you may have noticed, I tend to write longer responses and to organize them as well as I’m able before hitting “post”.The central argument that I’ve been trying to convey in different ways to different folks here for the last couple of days is a simple one:
There’s absolutely no need for those of us who oppose Scn’s current leadership and actions to let our differences divide us if we hold in common the understanding and desire to see that fundamental reform of the church occurs and that basic human rights are respected. Keeping our eyes on that prize, rather than getting distracted by personal differences and past occasions of butt hurt, is the way forward together.
I’m mindful of the fact that conditions of mistrust can make it impossible for certain individuals who actually do share some of these same goals and purposes to work together at this time. In those cases, moving forward alone, or as part of a splinter faction. may be the best course of action for now. Still, every movement gathers power through alignment and coherence within, and with numbers. So, beyond that simple argument, the suggestion – or plea, if you like – is to put aside whatever enmity that you might have to focus on what needs to be done now and into the future.
Again, I’ll readily admit that, from time to time, I’m in need of being reminded of that just as much as anyone.
Doesn’t ring a bell, but I’m very bad with names and dates. I think I only lasted about three months or so…it was all so long ago and far away.
I do remember being worried that being a quitter would reflect badly on me when I returned to the fold in Sacramento. But I shouldn’t have been because I still had money in the bank which gives you a golden aura…that is, at least until you’re all tapped out 😉
Well, Tony Ortega and his supporters have ethnic cleansing goals. As in, they want the Scientology culture wiped out. he will use his blog to out fair game and shame anyone Scientologist he can. And has no problem using their children as weapons to punish them for being involved. He has “shaming wales” days where he shames and ridicules anyone that has made donations to the church. Spreading photos of them and their children, on his blog.
To be a part of that culture you have to do a sort of reverse A to E. At the very least, He requires a public announcement routinely, to the effect his follower realizes their actions were ignorant and unfounded for becoming involved or interested in Scientology. And state where possible,the influences or motivations which caused them to attempt to be curious about or involved with Scientology. Such as they were brainwashed, conned, misled, innocent, lied to, hallucinating, whatever. If they thought they had some benefit or gained some knowledge they were tricked or brainwashed. And they have to ridicule , belittle, harm attack and suppress anyone that is a Scientologist.
He also prefers if folk snitch on anyone they find out about, “tipsters”, and snitch with any intel from their experiences within. Expose anyone they can for wrong doing. He trashed one of Marty’s books, a memoir. Loudly and publicly in a review he posted on his blog. A memoir is a record of memories a person cares to share. You can’t really trash someone for what memories they don’t lay down in a book. But he trashed it because he thought Marty didn’t dish enough dirt. Things Tony might be able to use to harm attack and suppress people.
Criticism towards Tony or disagreement, is considered a suppressive act intended to suppress Tony or Bunkerites, and calls for immediate expulsion (banned from posting on the forum).
Marty doesn’t have followers or supporters. He has some personal friends that meet up here. But people kind of wander in and out and it is sort of a writers group. I mean, in that people write to one another here.
A small group was formed for maybe a year or two, called Independents. Mainly as a wall to protect the grass roots movements starting up. I think they had two meet ups. They never formed an organization or anything like that. One guy set up a web site.
As I said, I do not think there is such a thing as an “Independent” “Scientologist”. A Scientologist is someone that is aligned with the Church of Scientology. There are some “Freezoners”. Those people do their own thing and they are not in any mode for domination or fighting. They are just quiet friendly people and they are not interested in the Church and really don’t care what anyone thinks about what they are doing. They do not put themselves in positions to be dominated or bullied. they are not formed in any group either.
There is a group called Ron’s Org which uses some Scientology, but they are mainly in Europe. They are the flock of a man named Bill Robertson. I got just a little involved, did the first step. It was interesting but you have to get in the mind set that you are a monitored criminal and find ways to lose the police monitoring you. I guess it is possible there is a parallel universe where this may be the case. And these people have a real issue they are addressing. They seem to get along with themselves and keep to themselves. They have made a lot of clears in Russia. I didn’t have out ruds on Xenu so I guess I might have been suspected of working for him. I couldn’t get into the enemy condition I needed to be in for that kind of mind set. They have a tech for blowing off suppression but if you have done L12, you kind of understand the nature of op terming. There is an enemy condition below it, the identity is just the motive.
It was throwing my ruds out to try to wedge myself into the notion that I was a hunted criminal. Because who / what, would be policed and monitored? Someone who cannot be trusted. I’m not very imaginative when I have to view myself as a smaller being overwhelmed and in bondage, by invisible police. That just smells like a ser fac to me.
But I can’t review the system, I haven’t done it. I did have someone at my house who was being trained on it with videos, and watched the person become very over re stimulated. And slide into a criminal valence. Either by wrong items and wrong why’s, or because this was a real issue for them.
Not all people in this universe have been in the same place at the same time. I have run Earth incidents in the calendar date of the 4000’s. So, there was an earlier calendar here. An earlier time, an earlier civilization.
I also had to run out on the L’s, having an earlier reactive mind. What do people think boot camp is for soldiers? You push them into an enemy condition, and teach them how to react. Turn them loose with the purpose to harm attack and suppress.
The only holy militia, is one trained to bypass. And that is exactly what Marty helped people do.
Anyone really curious about Scientology or some parts of it, just bypassed David Miscavige and kept it moving while Marty took up several years of his life and resources. Every bullet, every soldier, every volunteer.
Do Miscavige’s soldiers look very clear to you? In case you haven’t seen the videos on Marty’s youtube channel.
So, the thing is, there was a civil war going on for a number of years.
But when I first started getting auditing outside of the Church, the suppression from OSA was so bad, people were hiding in closets to audit. You wouldn’t be caught dead with a check sheet. Fake ones had to be organized under a “clearbird” banner.
But the Russians, where this this kid of thing is illegal, to suppress people for trying to improve. They jumped forward at this time and gathered everything, every piece of information, and got it up on the Internet. And I mean they moved on this like a force of nature. So, all the materials are out here now.
That is why David repackaged everything under GAOT and sent staff on book burning missions. Cancelled everyone’s certs and declared Hubbard an overt product maker. He now has exclusive products again.
Because he is so ethical.
There are not any organized and policed groups here now, no matter how hard some people try to mock them up for the purpose of domination.
It’s every man for himself standing on civil rights and curiosity.
Some people make it work. Others shift to another platform where they can be dominated once again. By anyone who cares to think for them.
Anyway, this is just the way things look from where I am viewing.
Over here on this blog, people are just exchanging ideas. Every once in a while someone comes in throwing tomatoes. Calms down a little and moves on.
I don’t think anyone posts here who sees them self as a Scientologist. People are just being themselves.
This forum has always been open to everyone from all walks of life. Everyone has been welcomed here to post, right from the beginning. Extremists, fanatics, anti’s, critics, former Scientologists and people that have never been involved in Scientology. So there hasn’t been any bonding glue for one view. Or should I say, there hasn’t been any bondage.
Laughter!
Don’t know of anyone who wants to meddle on David Miscavige’s estate.
Don’t think Marty ever had that goal. He only exercised his right to be himself. Say what he felt. Admit what he saw. Live his life out loud. Know his rights and not have them trampled on.
And that is pretty much all he has ever done since he came up on the radar out here.
Virginia, I do not think Tony was raised with any religion. I think he identifies as an atheist.
This whole thread has been about his dirty tricks, then and now.
You are correct, I could have stopped at no. The reason I went on longer, was because I had 2 separate points in the back of my mind. The first had to do with the trepidation we often feel about going directly to someone with a simple question, because problems in communication may have developed between us. When those problems have accumulated, we often don’t feel free to go directly to the principal. In fact we are free to do so.
But my other thought had to do with the tendency, exacerbated by the internet, to contribute to and derive false information from a large group of people who may not know, but who still answer the question with what they heard from someone else, who also may not know.
Janet Malcolm, in her essay ‘The Journalist and the Murderer’, wrote that every interview is a form of betrayal. In the end it is not about you at all, but about the story.
If there isn’t a story, what is there to tell?
It’s still true, I’m afraid. There might be exceptions, I hope.
Don’t I know it. See response to Oracle.
Other than the fact that it was given at the Seattle Skeptic Society, was there a specific point in this video where he says that? I haven’t watched the entire thing, by the way, but most of it.
I did notice the subtle joke at the beginning, he thanked them and said “thanks for believing in me.” (lol)
Some other points of interest in the video (of what I did watch) –
At 6:27 he talks about Mark Rathbun
At 8:02 he says why and how he decided to blog about scientology every day.
At approx 9:30 he says how he hooked up with Paulette Cooper. It was over Tom Cruise being given an award by the Simon Weisenthal center that Paulette wasn’t happy about.
At 26:08 he starts talking about the Guardian’s office operative that ran some of the nastiest black ops on Paulette.
At 27:54 he says he can’t name who they found that was because Paulette feared retaliation, but that they can look online and find it .
At 28:31 he talks about that they found a 2002 picture they thought was him but Paulette didn’t recognize him. What Tony doesn’t mention is that he contacted my husband Mike who said the same thing.
At 29:16 he talks about me, and that it was me that found the much older picture that made it so both Paulette and Mike immediately recognized him – thereby making it possible to achieve one of the main goals that he and Paulette had sought.
In case anyone is interested, I wrote about this in a couple posts at our blog.
In this one search for the phrase “Next we have an excerpt from a private post”.
In this one
I go into why Tony didn’t post at his blog about my cracking the case for them – even though that’s what he promised me he was going to do.
A couple of quotes from my post:
“You see, I had decided to break the case back almost a year ago today…
I had actually posted about it already when I contacted Tony Ortega privately and he asked me to withhold that information until his book came out, (which I did) and that in thanks he would post about it on his site (which never happened) and that he would mention it in his book which did happen.”
“It was Paulette that asked Tony not to post about me and the picture I found after he had already agreed that he would. Tony agreed, but to his credit he found other ways of making my role known (which I’ll show you in a minute).”
“Do you know that to this day, neither I nor my husband Mike have ever received any direct and personal communication from Paulette thanking us for doing this for her? Not even a private email. Not even one mention of it ever at any interviews, news articles or any kind of press from her about it.”
Virginia
About Tony Ortega’s purpose, there is this FAQ on his blog:
Why do you write about Scientology?
Because it interests us. We started writing about Scientology with our first cover story for the Phoenix New Times in November 1995, and that experience only whetted our appetite for more. Some people cover Congress, other people cover the mafia, we cover Scientology. It’s a fascinating story that is only getting more interesting with time, and we enjoy having a seat on the front row as this adventure unfolds.
You’re very critical of Scientology? Why?
We don’t like bullies.
from http://tonyortega.org/about/
Thanks for the link, I’ll check it out!
My direct association with the cherch and all things scientological ended before many of the significant events (e.g., Mission holders massacre; Elron’s demise; lil davey the savage’s usurping of power) took place. So I’ve been playing catch up in trying to follow the story and sort out all the different, and often conflicting, accounts of those who were there through those times and up until the present.
Since returning to the scene in this last year, I’ve been doing a lot of reading, blog following and participating in discussions on the subject, which have all been very helpful to me in understanding the encompassing narrative and filling in a lot of history from the time that I ceased to be a member until today. What’s been missing from that tale so far has been the personal accounts of folks like you who continued to participate in Scn practices, such as auditing, and to organize your writing on the subject from within a scientological framework of understanding.
Your incidental references to some of the key players in the “outside of the official cherch” Scn movement; the sequence of this movement’s development; and its splintering and, seeming, dwindling away represent an important part of the full story that either doesn’t exist as a cogent, well-written account or that I just haven’t run across yet. In any event, it’s fascinating to hear and I truly appreciate any discussion board format that is “… open to everyone from all walks of life. Everyone has been welcomed here to post, right from the beginning.” I quickly grow bored and feel my mind slipping into stupor when I’m only talking to my fellow “choir members”. Since escaping the cult, I much prefer heterogeneous groups that have no central Kool-Aid fount from which everyone is required to drink.
Being on the outside looking in, but from the vantage point of someone who was a member before cataclysmic changes within the cherch fundamentally altered what it means to be “in,” has given me an ease and fluidity with scientologese and a philosophical depth of understanding (I actually DID read Dianetics all the way through…twice! ). But it’s kind of like being a child with normal hearing ability who’s been raised by deaf parents and acquired the same level of fluency using sign language that deaf-from-birth individuals acquire, then not using that sign language to communicate with anyone for 30+ years until re-establishing contact with the deaf community and trying to catch up with them on what’s happened since then. To carry the analogy further, it’s as if, in the intervening time since I last had direct contact with that community, some of the formerly deaf folks received cochlear implants and can now hear and converse normally, while still retaining their fluency with sign, while others in that community continue to be solely dependent on sign to communicate.
Having spent most of those 30+ intervening years immersing myself in a very intensive study of how the incredibly complex operations of the brain underly and enable mind at every possible level that you can conceive of, I’m absolutely certain that there is so much more to understanding it than Elron provided that it’s very difficult for me to hear folks use terms like “reactive mind” as if it were some actual disembodied, non-neurally instantiated entity that, somehow, impinged on the physical universe.
Even as an abstract construct, it has very little heuristic value in helping us to understand, at a neurophysiological level, the difference between, say, conscious and unconscious processes. In part, that’s because it is way too coarse of a parsing, but also because it’s abstractly conceptualized, dichotomously posed counterpart, the “analytic mind” just doesn’t seem to exist in the pure, native state form that Elron hypothesized it. That bright and absolute dividing line between the two that Elron hypothesized has no empirical support whatsoever.
His entire understanding of the human mind was developed during a time that Behaviorism held sway and the brain was considered to be an impenetrable black box – a fundamental orientation that’s been utterly destroyed. And, since then, it’s been replaced with about six decades of increasingly detailed, empirically validated and extensively peer reviewed knowledge that anyone who runs across even the most cursory overviews of is pretty much forced to re-consider any dualist theory of how the human mind operates and upon which it evolved, develops during childhood and changes with experience. As a pre-neuroscience abstract conceptual framework of understanding, it’s very much like Freud’s and equally ungrounded in the objectively derived facts concerning how the brain’s relationship to mind.
Like the modern-day followers of Rudolf Steiner’s Anthroposophy, Scn is a philosophy of mind and and encompassing world view that is stuck in a pre-scientific time that its adherents cling to as the best and most comprehensively integrative global framework of understanding that exists, which enables them to dismiss out of hand all of the vast realms of knowledge that have come into existence since their respective founders passed away. Being familiar with both of these purportedly comprehensive cosmologies, I just have to wonder if Scn will look as silly and far-fetched as Steiner’s Anthroposophy does today if and when it reaches that philosophical system of belief’s present age. If Scn continues to follow the same pseudo-science course that its founder put it on in the early fifties, then that denouement is virtually assured.
Again, this is not to say that you and everyone else who derive benefit from the application of scientological principles methods and practices did not experience those benefits; it’s just to say that the conceptual framework of knowledge and ultimate foundational principles upon which they’re hypothesized to be based are incorrect at a very fundamental level of their conceptualization: Mind is not some intangible, disembodied something that mysteriously acts to create memory, attention and cognition in ways that are fundamentally unknowable. Far from it, in fact.
So, to sum up,, I can heartily recommend that both dedicated Scientologists and Anthroposophists, who continue to perceive and organize their worlds through the “sign language” provided by their group’s founder’s immutably fixed wisdom, come to present time (SNAP!) and sign themselves up to receive the “cochlear implant” of empirical knowledge that many decades of scientific inquiry have made available to all who truly desire to hear.
Wow! This is all very interesting Virginia! Thanks for all of that filling in with information!
No, he doesn’t say in the video that he is an atheist. I think he has kept his own religious views in the closet. And just attacks people who make theirs public or known.
I just wanted to plow through Dale’s thought stopping efforts.
Thanks for the helpful clarification!
I definitely get the sense that there’s quite a bit of wariness and suspicion here and on other ASC sites concerning the motives of folks who just float in on the ether, based on past experiences with trolls. As a result, I never take personal offense when that occurs. It’s completely understandable and, in this age of “multi-level trolling,” keeping your spidey senses tuned for those who are not as they wish to appear is a requirement, unless you want to waste a whole lot of time and effort.
One of the reasons that I go on at length in what I hope seems like a thoughtful, positive and open manner is that trolls very rarely put that kind of thought and energy into their ‘work’. It’s been my experience that, in addition to being furtive and skulking, they’re also really lazy!
In any event, the old truism, “ye shall know me by my works” always applies and it’s only after sufficient time has elapsed that anyone can do so.
Go directly to the principle? When does Tony go directly to the principle? He exercises his right to ask questions about folks on public media lines:
“…so was Monique saying that she — and her husband — had recovered damages in the form of a secret settlement?”
He didn’t even need to ask this one. There is no evidence anywhere that Monique ever said anything remotely like this.
I could spend a few days cataloging Tony’s reporting through questioning. But I don’t have the time and I do not it to you.
Have no idea why you are implying some injustice has been done to Tony Ortega by someone asking about HIS religion. He has a daily blog that does nothing but question people’s choices with exploring the supernatural. And shames them as ridiculous.
He should be forthcoming about his OWN views.
It was a very intelligent question. And you have a protest read on it.
Virginia – Off the subject, but I would recommend anyone visiting your site to take a look at Mike McClaughry’s “Scientology Roots” book in the The Reading Library. It’s Excellent and references much more than just scn. I wrote a brief “book review” at the bottom of the last topic. 🙂
And Coca Cola keeps you thin!
And doctors prescribe Camels!
I’m a long-time Ortega reader. I think he is doing something very important, but I also have a very hard time with the way he does it.
Once you get past his asinine nosism, you find that he tries so hard to be clever and provocative in his writing that he often ends up with inappropriate or even perverse characterizations. For example, he wrote a story a while back about a young woman who was a dancer in LA and was getting into Scientology. He called her Scientology’s “private dancer.” He obviously thought this was clever wordplay. I think it is offensive. In today’s piece he refers to Steve Cannane’s book launch as a “coming out party.” Ortega revels in this kind of suggestive hyperbole.
I’m not sure he’s actually out to get Monique or anybody else, but I’m glad he’s being called on it. He doesn’t take criticism well, and it would great if he started listening.
Oh, along with Marty leading the “bypass”, Mike Rinder also, they crossed continents. Reached out, spoke out, reached across the isle and built bridges that has never been expended from the Church before. Mike Rinder did a speech in Ireland that was most amazing piece of public relations work in history.
Marty took a huge leap traveling to Germany with his wife, to meet with government interests. He was fair gamed through out the city as we watched at home. Huge advances.
Just a few days over five years ago. Marty built this bridge. This was one of many. Marty gave Tony the scoop. He was still working at the Village Voice.
http://www.villagevoice.com/news/marty-rathbun-in-germany-i-watched-tom-cruise-tell-bill-clinton-to-influence-tony-blair-for-scientology-updated-6726044
Tony used Marty again a few weeks later for another scoop:
http://www.villagevoice.com/news/the-top-25-people-crippling-scientology-no-3-marty-rathbun-6706380
A few years later, Tony was able to get Ursula for a scoop for his blog:
http://tonyortega.org/2013/01/31/ursula-caberta-retiring-tomorrow-she-talks-to-us-about-fighting-scientology-in-germany-for-20-years/
Today, they are all cheering for Ursula over on ESMB , like she is a family member. She has become a hero to them.
I mean, none of these people had the time of day for her or any interest whatsoever before Marty boarded a plane to build that bridge. She doesn’t know anyone on ESMB from a hole in the wall. LAUGHTER!
Now she’s a ESMB icon.
http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthread.php?42636-Congratulations-to-Ursula-Caberta-on-political-win
And another scoop for Ortega to piggy back on.
But Marty actually laid down all of these lines out here. Bridged people out of their caves and into society and connected them up with terminals. He is the one that introduced them all to Ray Jeffries in fact. LAUGHTER!
Just so you know how these dynamics swing out here on the current scene. All roads, except for ESMB, lead back to Marty or Mike. They do all the work, take the hits, walk the distance, swim the rivers, talk the talk and walk the walk. The rest feast on the leftovers. It’s feast or famine.
This is Mike Rinder:
Now, Tony Ortega has become spokesperson for the Church of Scientology. The press call him for intel.
David Miscavige lost Mike Rinder and gained Tony Ortega. LAUGHTER!!!
You can’t make this stuff up!!!!!!!
Your last sentence is very potent. I do understand what you mean about the sign language as well.
At best, your interest is in figuring things out for yourself. Being curious instead of bitter. And I think that is truly the only way you can learn something new, or of intrinsic value, anyway.
Most folk, if they walked into the emergency room tomorrow, complaining that they thought they were having a heart attack. And the admitting nurse handed them a scalpel and told them they would need to work things out for themselves. Well, they would become quite indignant and feel betrayed. They might even hate all doctors and hospitals for eternity.
I’m just open for the fact that reality as I know it, is subject to change with out notice. I expect the unexpected. I don’t know anything about medicine, and I could never put a scalpel on myself. So I would see the absurdity , of my expecting someone else to do something for, that I am not willing or able to do for myself.
You have some deep strong and well established roots in this arena. No wonder you rock steady when the winds blows!
I knew you had some experience entertaining people. Because you don’t have a problem laying yourself out there and owning it. It’s the Viking way.
Update: Anony Mary has just declared Ursula an Ex Scientologist on ESMB:
AnonyMary AnonyMary
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Default Re: “Congratulations to Ursula Caberta on political win.
I am so happy to hear this!! Good for her (and us exes)! I bet she is thrilled!
FYI to any readers unaware:
A bit about Ursula Caberta, ex-scientologist, …..”
How desperate have these people become for new members, and allies, when they have to imagine them there?
Oh! Ok Richard, I’ll look at it. Just catching up here…
You’re welcome Harpoona, I hope you further enjoy your time here as people get more comfortable with you.
lol. Ok Oracle.
What an interesting thought. I like it. Thanks Oracle!
Oracle, this is just *such* a magnificent post, I hardly know where to start! Thanks so much for sharing your personal overview.
“To be a part of that culture you have to do a sort of reverse A to E. At the very least, He requires a public announcement routinely, to the effect his follower realizes their actions were ignorant and unfounded for becoming involved or interested in Scientology.”
Beautifully put.
“And state where possible,the influences or motivations which caused them to attempt to be curious about or involved with Scientology. Such as they were brainwashed, conned, misled, innocent, lied to, hallucinating, whatever.”
I would add that it isn’t just Tony that does this, he is CONTINUING a line that started out running through ARS (the newsgroup) and right on into ESMB. Including the whole reverse A to E idea being a kind of requirement to be “accepted”.
“If they thought they had some benefit or gained some knowledge they were tricked or brainwashed. And they have to ridicule, belittle, harm attack and suppress anyone that is a Scientologist.”
It also bothers them when, like Mike and I have done, someone says that the attempts at behavior modification within scientology never worked on them and WHY. God forbid a person say that they never were a scientologist even when they were…lol
They have conniption fits over those ideas – it’s just “not possible”. Oh, yes it is. It’s called PERSONAL INTEGRITY.
The worst thing, perhaps, in their book, is when they cannot blame scientology (but still want to) for *why* you have the spiritual ideas you do, or more importantly HOW YOU ESCAPED THEIR NET.
Now we *really* get into Black Propaganda territory.
“There is a group called Ron’s Org which uses some Scientology, but they are mainly in Europe. They are the flock of a man named Bill Robertson. I got just a little involved, did the first step. It was interesting but you have to get in the mind set that you are a monitored criminal and find ways to lose the police monitoring you. I guess it is possible there is a parallel universe where this may be the case. And these people have a real issue they are addressing. They seem to get along with themselves and keep to themselves. They have made a lot of clears in Russia. I didn’t have out ruds on Xenu so I guess I might have been suspected of working for him.”
You too? That’s what I got accused of, among other things.
“I’m not very imaginative when I have to view myself as a smaller being overwhelmed and in bondage, by invisible police. That just smells like a ser fac to me.”
Lol – that shoe certainly didn’t “fit” for me as well.
Rey Robles was introducing me to one of Captain Bill’s procedures that had as a type of handling, to tell the being to “go back to static and wait.”
I said something on the order of: “But Rey, isn’t “wait” a below death tone scale attribute? Why would I tell a being to do that – that sounds like something a suppressive would want. Everyone out of the game and off waiting somewhere. I’m not going to do it.” The look on his face….
I didn’t fit into their nasty little boxes (social engineering project) any better *out* than I did *in* the church.
“I don’t think anyone posts here who sees them self as a Scientologist. People are just being themselves.”
Good point.
VIrginia
Agreed, maintaining that child-like curiosity about what you don’t know and being open to new experiences is the exact opposite of dwelling in bitterness and remaining fixed on the past.
Because Halloween got started very early this year, with Tony Ortega posing as an investigative journalist that broke the story of the century, that never happened. And the wild hallucinatory false reports and treason that followed or was part and parcel. I feel compelled to announce that I will be off line for a while.
I did not take a pay out from David Msicavige.
I am not working for David Miscavige.
I am not doing A to E.
I have not rejoined the Church of Scientology.
I haven’t gone on the lam from any financial investor scheme.
I am not working for the C.I.A., F.B.I., or C.I.A..
I am not under arrest.
I am not in the hospital.
I am not in rehab.
I did not die.
I am not doing time.
I do not have cancer.
I did not have a falling out with Marty.
I have not been hit with a gag order.
I have not been served a restraining order.
I haven’t been threatened.
I am not in danger.
I am not writing a book.
I am not giving interviews.
I am not shooting a documentary.
I am not in Mont ego Bay smoking weed.
I did not become a Nun.
I have not joined the Mormon Church.
I haven’t run off with a good looking Catholic Priest.
I’m not in Vegas stripping.
I’m not in Atlantic City dancing.
I’m not in Brazil or anywhere else, getting plastic surgery.
I’m not isolated and suffering from a highly contagious disease.
I’m not shacking up with Xenu.
I’m not visiting an implant station to reveal your intel.
I’m not reporting for duty with the galactic patrol force.
I’m not posting under a new name to infiltrate priest anti chambers.
I’m not hiding in the bushes in front of the Int base.
I’m not covertly diving with listening gear around the Freewinds.
I am not in the car across from your home.
I am not living on the street
I am not getting divorced.
I am not getting a sex change operation in Venezuela.
I have not gone off to a mountain top to cast spells on Emma.
I did not join the Hare Krishna.
I did not move into the Temple of Thelma.
I did not shape shift into the animal on your yard.
I am not living with Louis Farrakhan.
I have not joined the Nation of Islam.
I have not reported in for a new implants.
I am not in the in between lives area.
I am not the baby Kate Middleton might be carrying.
What I am doing, is working and traveling. Being no one very important and doing nothing very important. I’m sure no meaningful conversation, would carry my name in it. That would be kind of pathetic.
Keep the porch light on!
I agree with you. Experienced it myself when I once disagreed with him. He reacted immediately and called me names. Totally inappropriate. I was shocked to read it. And all I did was having a different suggestion why Monique Rathbun maybe ended her lawsuit.
Enjoy yourself. There is something quite wonderful to be working, doing nothing very important.
I would travel were I not the caregiver for an elderly dog who really cannot be left any longer with my former pet sitter. Plus I miss her when I’m gone knowing how numbered our days are.
All of us should cherish those close to us. For ultimately it is our closest family, animals and a handful of genuine friends who make the world — which isn’t a piece of cake place – a place of joy.
I will miss you Oracle for you are without a doubt ONE of a kind. We all are, EXCEPT most are too mired down by all their coats/masks and pretense to know it.
You aren’t afraid to talk against the crowd.
Love,
WIndhorse
The Viking way?
Good travels to you Oracle. I, too, will be a bit busier on other things right now, so I may or may not post until I get a few things done on my to do list.
Look forward to your return 🙂
For those of you who once professed to be Marty and Mosey’s friends and for those of you who never were, but spend your days and nights glutting yourselves over who can come up with the cleverest Marty put down and ‘LOL’ over your oh so funny shoops while waiting for your ever approving Ortega guru to shower you with praise… You disgust me. Each and every single one of you. I rue the day I ever accepted ANY of you as ‘friends’ and I am happy to part company with you now . I pity the poor souls who fall into the nest of vipers next. And for those who play the ‘neutral’ game – I don’t have enough spit in my saliva glands left.
Marty – I pray you will find peace some day and that the rats in the cellar were worth the time spent dealing with their stench when you could have been enjoying your beautiful family. I DO get it 🙂 I just don’t think some people are worth it.
Hugs.
Sam
Right questions, wrong answers.
Q: Why do you write about Scientology?
A: Because I am obsessed with it.
Q: You’re very critical of Scientology? Why?
A: Because I am obsessed.