I felt like I was pretty much done with the ASC (Anti-Scientology Cult) awareness-education business after the post How Gullible Can One Get?  However, within a couple of days of publication I received a blackmail threat from ASC headquarters (from ASC royalty in fact).  The demand requires me to shut down the exposure of facts and thoughts I have been sharing of late on this blog. The threat was that if I continue on that subject line my most well-concealed, secret crimes will be exposed.

Those crimes were characterized as fitting the bill of what Jeff Hawkins authoritatively spoke of in My Scientology Movie. Hawkins appears there stating with an air of grave profundity, paraphrased, “Rathbun has definitely not told all; he knows where all the bodies are buried.”

While I consider whether to cave and muzzle myself as ordered or to stand and carry on with exposing hypocrisy, I thought it would help to have the ASC rank and file weigh in. I have attracted scores of ASC trolls in the past couple of months, and discussion of my posts have dominated ASC comment-message threads. Now the followers have the opportunity to contribute something meaningful to their cause.

All they have to do in order to participate is pass a pre-school level cognitive-coordination challenge. This poll is going to be a test of their attention span, self-discipline, and motor-skills faculties. That is, they can weigh in with one word, either “cave” which means stfu (and every other unkind thought they feel compelled to hurl my way) or they can say “stand” which means “go ahead and express yourself.”  You must go by your regular cyber cult handle. That way ASC leadership (the blackmailers) knows exactly where you stand. It also allows us to see which of those who regularly read here and comment on me elsewhere have the nerve to defy ASC leadership standing orders not to read and discuss my posts anymore.

I anxiously await ASC input so that I may complete this most nerve-racking decision-making process.

420 responses to “BLACKMAIL

  1. Pretty funny, Marty. I think you should speak the truth as you find it, as should everyone else.

    • I guess its all lulz, until it isn’t.

    • Exactly. I have no idea the background to the current fracas as I don’t read Tony’s blog, or message boards or whatever these days. I only re-visited this one accidentally recently. Doesn’t seem too productive. And I certainly aint about to go spending weeks finding out what it’s all about. But of course everyone should say the truth as they see it. Having said that, I don’t think launching double-barrelled verbal assaults on others publicly is particularly useful either. Whether seemingly justified or not. Whether Karen De La C is a hypocrite – to take one example I spotted – is a) subjective and b) not a very nice subject matter for an open forum. I only met Karen once and found her charming witty and thoughtful. But what do I know.

    • Dankoon or whoever you are. You have my individet attention.

      So who are you? And what is your game ?

    • Dankoon, I will speak the truth, I am so dissapointed whit you even Santa puges on you.

      Marty Rathbun isjust a simplle man with modaine intrests

      And than you get Trump

  2. MODERATOR REJECT: You flunked the pre-school test George.

  3. Stand… of course. This is a joke, right Marty? ASC “royalty”? A name or two would be good. But regardless, always stand.

  4. Sorry Marty, I don’t read blogs or keep up and this is the first blog I have read, but YOU carry on !!!
    You don’t need a license to live from anybody!!!
    Again, carry on, Sir!!!
    Your friend,
    Mike Wilson
    ps I’ve got some strings for that guitar of Billy’s

  5. Chad Braunersrither


  6. If you need someone blackmailed just let us know

  7. LMAO! I’m pretty sure I know who The ASC royalty is that’s blackmailing you. I mean, it can only be 1 of 2 people. Also, my ESP vibes are telling me this person has a vagina.

    My style of handling this would be to publish the blackmailing threat. Then The ASC leader/representative would look like a freakazoid. Plus, you probably know the secret crimes of this person as well. ASC members get very embarrassed when their lurid pasts are leaked. Honestly, when you post anything about their former prostitution life etc. These ASC leaders/members disappear like a clam going back into its shell. Quite an interesting phenomenon to witness. A clam hiding back in its shell🙂

  8. morelivesthanacat

    Stay. And ASC fcuk off. You remind me of the recent AP wire that went out claiming a white cop shot a back man (it was a black cop) and also that the cops shot a rioter (another rioter did the shooting). Then we get more riots. Seems they work for other masters?

  9. The net is full of OT3 data, it has become the butt of jokes and ridicule. However, being a cramming officer I estimate that 80% of Scientologists who have done OT3 have missed the point – the key word to clear up is “bacteria”, the smallest basic life form. It divides and takes its “bank” (analytical and reactive) with it, how did this life form come to “Earth”. From enturbulated bacteria comes pneumonia and some cancers, one of the leading causes of death. Makes more sense that Noah’s Ark to me!

    STAND and be counted MARTY – blow these ASC assholes to hell, such a small, insignifigant game to play!! If Scientology is not real to you – i.e. no benefit – then “walk away”. It appears to have solutions to many problems if applied correctly, if no benefit – “walk away” (Joe Walsh)! “Let it Be” (Beatles) How about my favorite — Ride Captain Ride!!!

  10. I get blackmail emails from time to time. I immediately publish them for all to see. Then it stifles the person from carrying out their blackmail threat. Because I announced that the person is blackmailing me ahead of time.

    Blackmail is viewed as a scummy, dirt bag maneuver. Believe it or not, even the ASC views blackmail as low and dirty. Blackmail is also something practiced amongst Scientologists. The ASC royalty is comprised of critics who still audit & use LRH’s methods of dead agenting & fair game.

    Essentially, if you exposed these blackmail threats, it would prove how the ASC behaves like OSA. It would prove the ASC uses LRH policies while acting like they are against The CoS. Which is why I can’t stand the ASC. They are liars & fakes. They are still practicing Scientologists, while they deceive people into believing they are anti-Scientologists.

  11. I am not an ASC, not have I ever followed Scientology. I started following your blog after learning about your ordeal & courage to speak out, not only for you & your family, but others who may not be as strong.

    If you are getting threats, you are definitely making “someone” feel the need to shut you up before “they” are exposed. My opinion only!

    We have FREEDOM OF SPEECH in America & if someone doesn’t like what you have to say, they simply don’t have to read it.

    Never give up on your beliefs!

  12. Damn. As I feared the votes is gonna be skewed. Captain Tony has weighed in at the bunker:
    TonyOrtega Baby • 16 minutes ago
    How about just ignoring him?

  13. morelivesthanacat

    Oh, and to the smug ‘Jefferson’ Hawkins. Still in DM’s valence (trying to get off other people’s overts? You know, the ability to withhold is a virtue when it would do more harm to others. You can’t withhold anything apparently.

    • Hawkins apparently didn’t understand other things in Scientology, either. I saw that in one of Ortega’s posts a while back, where Hawkins was interviewed. But that is typical of people Ortega interviews and quotes.

  14. MODERATOR REJECT: You flunked the toddler-level cognitive skills test.

  15. Stand Mr Rathbun. Write a book about it sir. Take care of you and your family.
    Kind regards,

  16. Ummm… I thought it was the ASC that were supposed to be chiming in here?

  17. Gerhard Waterkamp

    As if you would do anything else.🙂
    Once upon a time there was an atomic explosion because Merrell Vanier had dared to direct a critical email towards her royalty. Royalty crafted an immediate decree that anybody had to cease any contact with Merrell. At the same time royalty was lamenting loudly about disconnection policies in the CO$.
    It was really funny and at the time I did not know what to do with so much Hypocrisy, so I laughed it off.
    A little later some legal shit hit the fan for her royalty and Merrill was able to work his way back into good graces and the royal decree was officially lifted.
    The working principle: Whatever fits MY momentary interests goes, f*** the rest.
    Kind of like moral harlotry.🙂

  18. Truth…….. It’s what all of you past OSA folks had a dysfunctional relation with.

    GO/OSA created havoc where needed. Created deception “for the greatest good.”

    Sought to destroy the reputation of the “enemy.”

    This is your karma looking at you through the eyes of those who also lived this life of “destroy for Ron.”

    Blow it out of the water with courage, honesty and good cheer. See it as a purifying process that was and is self created.

    We make our moments and our reaction to them.

    What has been done to others in the past, is now being done to you and all of the other players in this post Scientology black ops lonely hearts club.

    Nothing in the universe is random.

    My advice: don’t do it with revenge or hate. Then you will win. Hate your antagonists and their energy and mind will be cemented to your cognitive faculties like crazy glue.

    Burn this shit off your energetic space by being there confortably. You are not in control of how long this will take.

    Even if you just close up shop and go away, this stuff will follow. Work it out now.

    Be an example of courage, truth and redemption. This is the next phase of that redemption.

    This is your world now. Unmake it by experiencing it with the mind of a loving servant and the heart of a samurai.

    If you hate no one, the karma will burn off. It won’t be easy.

    If you hate those who seek your destruction and be revengeful, and you will accrue more shit to work out.

    Study the Tao every day, in morning and at night. The Tao will be your weapon and shield. Learn how to daily meditate. It helps.


    Run from no one. Embrace the hardship with gratitude and know that a great personal lesson is underway.

    But the most important is: HATE NO ONE! This is just not a nice thing to do. It is the essence of personal power and wisdom and the essential attitude to burn off funky ass karma.

    I wish you well Marty and send prayful support.

  19. Stand.

    But not by whining about being extorted. Stand by publicising the e-mail in full, including e-mail headers, so we can trace who really sent this email.

  20. No one is going to ignore you Marty. In fact, the opposite is happening. That’s why The ASC leaders are freaking out. Because they are jealous. You are getting more attention and interest than they are lol. Pretty sad when you think about it. It’s like a jealous highschool cheerleading squad.

    Before you coined the term ‘ASC’ I actually coined the term ‘KKK’ Kardashian Kritict Kult’ Because that is how they act. Attention & fame hungry individuals. They use Scientology subject matters as their guise to get attention. If someone is receiving more attention than they are, then they swoop in to get a piece of the action. Just like Kim Kardashian does.

    I’ve said before how I never was interested in your blog until these past few months. And I’ve known about your blog for at least 6-7 years now. You’re the only one who’s keeping it real these days. The recipients of your Scientology crimes were all ADULTS who made a CONSCIOUS decision to join The Church of Scientology. Most of them continue to audit/receive auditing to this very day. And most of those people still praise LRH as ‘Man’s best friend.’ These people need to take ownership over the fact that they joined Scientology at age 25, and stayed in for 20+ years. So frankly, they really need to stop complaining about you.

    Not to toot my own horn, but I knew from age 5 that Scientology was kinda weird and creepy. So the people that stayed in as adults, need to take responsibility for their lack of ‘critical thinking’ skills. Now they are out of Scientology and are suddenly prolific critical thinkers. lmfao. Yea.Critical thinking doesn’t just happen suddenly 1 day when you’re 50 years old. The reality is, if you didn’t have critical thinking skills in your 20’s-40’s, you’re doomed. lol Sorry. Critical thinking is not something than can be taught. You either have it or you don’t. Just like having a conscience or the ability to reason.

    • Marisa writes: Critical thinking is not something than can be taught.

      Actually, yes it can be taught and is. There are dozens of books and hundreds of university level classes on the subject. Personally I believe it should be taught at all levels of education, including elementary.


      • Frodis- Critical thinking is taught throughout grade school and college. It is something that can be learned while your brain is still developing. Once your brain has developed and you’re 40+ years old… If you haven’t figured out how to think at that point, I’d say you’re s.o.l. Because at age 40+ your brain starts to decline. I’m 38 now. Luckily I learned independent thinking in kindergarten. Otherwise I’d be screwed at this point in life. The term ‘critical thinking’ is something used by adults who don’t know their ass from a hole in the ground. But it sounds good & makes them feel like they are intellectuals.

        • Even if I don’t agree at all about the brain stuff, I definitely agree with your last two sentences. Perfect description. Just perfect.


        • Sorry Marisa, but I vehemently disagree. Unless there is a learning disability, age is not a barrier to learning new things, including critical thinking. I read and learn new things everyday.. Some studies have shown that challenging your brain like that is a good way to try and keep Alzheimer’s at bay.
          Btw-whatever school district you are near that teaches that at the elementary level-wow! You are lucky and the first person I have come across that does have it taught at that level. All universities/college do it and some AP high schools probably do it, but I have not heard of any lower levels teaching it. That is good news.

          • We can agree to disagree. That’s what makes this world so beautiful. Anyways, I grew up in The Regan Era. So he was big on education for kids I suppose. God Bless Ronald Reagan! He is the reason I know how to know…

      • Also Frodis, when I want to learn about critical thinking, I like to listen to college professors discuss it. Not videos from Chris Shelton. AKA ‘The dude who learned how to think last year.’ Here is a university level critical thinking video. Ahh…So refreshing:

        • This blog and also Mike Rinder’s and Alanzo’s blogs have been and continue to be an exercise in critical thinking for me. My neurogenic pathways are expanding rapidly.

          “Brain Game” devices are big business these days. Also brain vitamins – even for babies!

          • Nothing personal directed at you here Marissa, just my own viewpoint.

            On an earlier topic Marty mentioned that after he posted “When Distraction Becomes Destructive” in November 2015 an incredible chain of events kicked off. As I understand it he was saying on that post that governmental attacks on the CoS were a waste of governmental resources, a distraction. I beleive that “Brain Science” as presented to the public as related to the mind or spirit could be a distraction by the powers that be.

            Getting the masses to accept the doctrine that everyone’s mental facilities deteriorate after age 40 is a distraction allowing manipulation. It just ain’t so.

            • I’m not here to get into anatomy and physiology. Our bodies start to go downhill in our late 30’s. I didn’t make that up. It’s common medical knowledge. Our muscle mass decreases we lose fertility, and yes our brain function begins to decline. Those are scientific facts (for the science worshippers reading this).

              Of course we can still learn things at 40🙂 I am not talking about learning. I am talking about ‘learning how to think’. If you don’t know how to think at age 40, you are either brain damaged, or suffering from the inability to think period. Call it what you will. That is my opinion. There’s really no scientific proof on how to think anyways. So to be honest, people like Chris Shelton shouldn’t be lecturing on the thought process. Because he is not a scientist or a Dr.

              • He is not lecturing on the thought process, rather he is trying to get people to examine their beliefs and check multiple sources instead of following for the latest BS. Like bleach curing autism for example…or Hubbard’s nonsense.

                • Yes I know that. And I think he’s full of shit lol. I know Chris. So I can say that with confidence. Frodis- If ya like his videos, then rock on man! We all are entitled to who interests us🙂

              • There goes my conspiracy theory down the drain. I can go with a more biological approach. Maybe the brain “decomposes” slower than the other organs which would be a reason why most people, I think, remain lucid while the rest of the body deteriorates. Couch potatoes would be the exception.

                • Well according to Chris Shelton, our brain is what controls us. Interesting phenomenon that occurs with exes. They worship LRH’s anti-science stance. Then they get out of the cult. Now all of a sudden they worship scientists. If you notice something about ex-cult members…they HAVE TO Worship some idea or concept CONSTANTLY. Which is why I do not listen to, or obey any authority figures. Chris Shelton has traded in 1 authority study with another. He has to be led CONSTANTLY BY AUTHORITY. Count me out of that obedience nonsense.

    • Would you be so kind as to provide specifics as to who among these ASC leaders is freaking out?

      • No I wouldn’t be so kind to your request. You have common observation skills just like me🙂 So use them. You’d be surprised at the whole world that awaits you…

        • Marisa: Indeed I do have those observation skills. And in fact, I did exactly what you suggested:. I searched the blogs commonly associated with ASC, looking for that freak-out of which you speak. And guess what: It NEVER happened!

          But rather than making claims of deception, I figured I give you a chance to direct me toward that alleged freak-out. After all, what if I missed it somehow? I guess I’m not all that surprised that you have nowhere specific to point me after all.

          • What’s your point? I don’t need to direct you anywhere. If that’s how you see things then good for you. Do you want a gold medal or something?

          • Also, you ‘read the blogs’ which leads me to believe you are a Scientology watcher who only sees the surface of what’s spoon fed to you. You can not even post with a real name. Plus you are asking me personal questions of the depths of this scenario. Like I’m going to sit here & have a serious conversation with an internet troll who I do not know. Figure it out bud. Stop being a creeper with me. Peace🙂

            • I am really sorry if I was not clear; if so, that would be my bad. No, I don’t mean to ask you “personal questions” at all. Just like personal digs do not advance one’s argument, getting personal does not get us any closer to anything of substance.

              But you had mentioned about a “freak out” and had shared your wonder of the whole world that awaits the person who uses their observation skills. So I followed your advice and looked in the one place where such a freak out would be evident, namely several ASC blogs. And I could not find any evidence. Maybe, it’s just me…

              So since I am using my observation skills carefully and thoughtfully in considering your argument, I am merely looking for the evidence that supports it. I figured as someone who claims extensive experience in critical thinking, you would be all in agreement with that.

              Plus, by helping me out you would also substantiate your own argument. Again, nothing personal. Just trying to follow your argument. So, about that freakout?

              • I’m not trying to help you out though. I don’t have an argument either. I am stating my observations from what I have dealt with personally. If it doesn’t match your own observations, then that is fine. I don’t need to rationalize or explain myself to you.

                Bottom line is, you want to get in on the juicy gossip. Because it will give you some sort of mental erection.
                Do I share that gossip with people I do not know such as yourself? No. I do not. Sorry if that makes you feel like you’re ‘not in the know.’ Buh-bye and have a nice night🙂

                • Let me help you with this. I am going to give you a little assist. I am going to ask you the question “Am I supposed to care what you are saying?”
                  Then you answer yes or no. K. Here goes🙂

                  Am I supposed to care what you are saying?
                  Am I supposed to care what you are saying?

                  No? Thank you. I don’t care what you are saying. End of session🙂

  21. Say what you like Mark.

  22. Stand —

    Best line ever : as if

    “I anxiously await ASC input so that I may complete this most nerve-racking decision-making process.”


  23. My thoughts on ethics and “with holds” and “invading privacy”.

    I hope this blows some charge for people. I know it is going to stir up some animosity from certain areas.

    First, rewards and penalties. If you open the ethics book to this section. It is all penalties and no rewards.

    Maybe we, as a bubbly culture out here. Should have had more parties. More get togethers. Created more pleasure moments for one another, even in our conversations.

    It seems from on high with Ortega it rolls down we only punish ourselves and one another. I know for Marty and his wife, it has been a full penalty zero reward for a long time.

    Maybe this is a mind set from the culture people continue out here. Scientology is a full penalty zero reward culture. Unless you are handed a cert after you have had some service. If you trained in was penalizing as well in an enforce band and militaristic setting.

    If you got auditing, hounded in session about what you did not tell.

    I never agreed with the idea of invading other people’s privacy. And the constant demand on Marty from book reviewers to interviewed people that he “tell all” or has not “told all” in a whine tone is very creepy to me.

    What is “privacy”? It is your own universe or a universe with two or few.

    These are God given rights. Or you would not own them and have them. It would not exist.

    There is a time when it could be harmful not to forward information and share it. It is not the case when an auditor is front of you demanding to know if you had an orgasm. Demanding to know your “thoughts” as if these are criminal. When a journalist is stalking you relentlessly through the media with a gang badgering you to “tell all”. When people continue to suggest you are criminal because of what you are “not telling” or that you haven’t “told all”.

    People outside of the Scientology culture seem to know and understand that a person’s “privacy” should be sacred, respected, and even protected. Except for the press which constantly seeks to violate people with these God given rights. And GIFTS.

    You are even guaranteed privacy with your medical information out here.

    I am not obsessed with the Church of Scientology “telling all”. And they are the ones most punitive when someone leaves and does “tell all”. Which illustrates the hypocrisy of the culture. Almost every “suppressive” act in that ethics books relates to telling or sharing information beyond the walls with “outside” people. Well guess what? The Church of Scientology is an “outside” person to everyone in many regards and from different angles, to everyone sitting in it. And it works both ways.

    The Underground Bunker runs a daily and continuous sec check on a group and individuals. And then writes K.R.’s on it’s findings and publishes declares.

    If you don’t know your rights you do not have any. Privacy is a God Given right. And if you give some of that space away, it should be elective. Not enforced. It is not a criminal side of you or an abberated side of you that cripples you. Unless you have treason parked there. Then it is on other people who can not trust you, to figure out if you are a friend or an enemy. And it is their God given right to know these things also.

    All of these comments and allusions to, “Marty knows where the bodies are buried” “Marty hasn’t told all” “Marty or someone has not shared their financial records with us” blah blah. Listen people, mind your own business.

    A person should be able to set up a blog, a marriage, a life, without constant demands for intell from 30 or 20 years ago.

    This obsession with “with holds” is madness. The obsession to find out other people’s business, is called “being nosey”. It is not curiosity if it is morbid curiosity.

    We live in a world were men go to war or involve themselves in security or military events. Where lawyers and counselors hear the worst from their clients. They are none of them compelled or even expected to run around town like the town crier blabbing it all for national security.

    Everyone on this planet seems to understand that privacy is a God given right except for journalists and Scientologists.

    Ortega snitches daily with an expose but when asked for where he got his information, he pulls a thought stopping, “I can not divulge that information at this time”.

    He ran an expose for months accusing the Rathbuns of being criminals, insane, unjust, dishonest. He promised he had intel and inside sources and he would bring it to the table.

    Bearing false witness and perjury is a crime built on this commandment.

    Bearing false witness has nothing to do with privacy. Perjury has nothing to do with privacy rights.

    If you are going to INVENT what someone’s privacy is, and publish it and publicly accuse people, you have a DUTY to explain yourself.

    He has been asked publicly time and time again to explain himself. To explain his rampage.

    He can’t write one blog piece explaining himself and his sources and reasons for this four to five month expose that even details people’s mental capacity? As he thinks it is?

    He implies he knows where all the bodies are buried.

    Well? Is he going to take any responsibility?

    Or is he going to hide behind his monitor while the people out here wallow in injustice and conflict upon one another?

    Can you see how much he cares about these people and this community while accusing Marty and his wife, of turning their backs on the crowd?

    If he would just be forthcoming with what he ALREADY PROMISED he was going to deliver, people could get off one another with the mistrust.

    What is Tony Ortega doing for you all today? When is going to show the love and truth and concern he has dangled out here like a carrot?

    If he would just give it up, all of the hungry people could have lunch and go home in peace.

    But in all of this madness and unrest, he writes a blog post about people getting letters from the Church.
    Blue’s Clues for grown ups.

    Do we need to start an on line petition? Request a formal investigation? Have him subpoenaed into court?

    What will it take for him to deliver what he has promised?

    • These are Tony Ortega’s quotes. If he is so appalled by this kind of social intercourse, why is HE wallowing in it himself?

      “If you write about Scientology, you will find a massive audience. I think it’s a combination of the fact that there are some celebrities involved, that they’re very secretive about what they do, and that they’re bullies, and they get away with it.”

      “Scientology takes all of America’s most closely held beliefs and ideas about itself—freedom and tolerance—and turns them around and uses them as weapons. They’re able to get away with destroying people—”

      Tony Ortega

      • Like Mark said – Welcome to the gas-lighting zone.

      • Thank you for sharing those quotes.

        The first sentence in the first one: “If you write about Scientology, you will find a massive audience.” Ah, is he subconsciously stating perhaps his reasoning for writing about Scientology? The massive audience that will pay attention to him? Isn’t that akin to LRH’s quote about founding a religion to make money?

        The second quote, my stars! “…freedom and tolerance–and turns them around and uses them as weapons. They’re able to get away with destroying people–“. Isn’t that what he’s doing now? The people deeply caught up in the group think in the UB?

    • I love what you just said Oracle. The Blues Clues comparison. You’re a deep thinker. I wasn’t sure what to make of you at first. I told ya before how some people think you’re my mom. So instantly I’m like “Oracle must be nuts” lol. But you are one of the more rational people I’ve seen posting here. I usually have to read your comments 2-3 times to fully understand you. But that is a good thing. You make me think. I love people who make me think about things. Especially when it causes me to see a different perspective. Life is about full understanding. Not just understanding yourself. But understanding about everyone around you.

      • Thank you for your kind acknowledgement Marissa. XXOO Yes! Let’s get some GOOD vibrations going towards one another! The best way to be anti anything, is to have great parties! Have a great time! Lots of fun and pleasure moments! Great friends and great conversations! Laughter too, lots of it!

  24. I’m not in the ASC, but I say “Stand Fast!”

    Michael A. Hobson
    Independent Scientologist

  25. STAND!

  26. Harpoona Frittata

    MODERATOR REJECT: Strike one.

  27. If you are up for it Mr Rathbun, stand.
    If not, don’t.
    The rumors will continue to fly, the self righteous will continue to be so, and all will be be well within each and every bubble.




  30. ” Yoooouuuu staaaaannndddn taaaallll ”
    Big hello from LRHs Bulgravia.

  31. Stand.

    That said, I don’t fully understand your post, as I haven’t bee reading a lot of comments of late on the various blogs.

    But keep speaking your truths and I hope others do the same.

  32. HERE THEY ARE: the Scientology Critic Community’s Facts About The Overts/Withholds of Mark “Marty” Rathbun!!!

    1. Marty once played sax in a Scientologist ska band called Disconnection Rocks. In a ska band!
    2. Marty is often seen loitering around schoolyards, handing out apples with razor blades and ‘Truth about Drugs’ pamphlets in them.
    3. Marty told the Corpus Christi Caller: “There’s nothing I like better of an evening than kicking back with a nice glass of the Scotch that David Miscavige sent me for making Monique drop the lawsuit.” He’s sick!
    4. Marty once burnt an American flag – lighting one of his fat Cuban cigars.
    5. Marty served time in the 90s for stabbing a guy in a crowded nightclub. At the trial he said that he did it because “the guy looked at him funny” but the guy hadn’t even been looking at him at all! True story.
    6. Marty violently opposes the idea of anyone laughing at Scientologists – and calls on his brainwashed drones to “take out” any blog which attempts to do so. The right to mock $cilon scum is in the constitution, Marty, you fascist bastard!!!

  33. New poster. Just want to say that in attempting to expose the abuses of Scientology, in that regard Tony Ortega seems to be doing a good thing… But, as a long time reader of the bunker, I DO understand what you all mean by the cultish mentality that goes on. I, myself held back from making descenting comments there as a result of what I took to be as Tony biting my head off for asking a question, but I held back because I felt like I would’ve been ostracized for biting back. I get it. I really don’t have a dog in the fight other than the fact that I care about what happens to those who have been and are being abused by Scientology. I went to narconon for a short time, but was never a member of the church. Don’t know really what my point is other than to affirm the cult like mentality there, even though I do agree with some of the posts there. As far as the original question (yes I realized I broke the rules by not just posting a simple yes or no as requested in the OP) I say, that if your intentions are sincere and for positive purposes (which I have no reason to believe they aren’t, nor is it really my place to judge) than keep up with it! It is certainly your right to do so and no ones to tell you otherwise.

    • The Bunker is great if you want to keep up on the latest celeb gossip. Like Tom Cruise, and the latest with Jim Carrey’s ex girlfriend. I’ve never been a member of The Bunker. Because as you said, it’s like a cult. I grew up in a cult (Scientology). Last thing I want to do is join another one. Thanks for speaking out Steve❤

      • Tony Ortega and the Underground Bunker is a celebrity obsessed culture.

        Today his blog is all about dreaming about which or what celebrity, might do something next. If there is no new news, he puts up posts for them to dream about possible celebrity events.

  34. Oh I forgot to cast my vote-STAND!! STAND FOR YOUR RIGHT TO EXPRESS YOURSELF!! I’m not a member of the ASC. But I am a member of the ASM. ‘Anti-Scientology Movement’. Culties are the ones telling you to stifle yourself and remain silent. Because that is how culties think. Ignore them. To you people telling Marty ‘Flunk’ and he should silence himself.. you all should be embarrassed of yourselves. You all are acting like creepy cult members. Freedom of expression holds no bounds. The fact some of you want to control Marty’s voice & expression (or lack thereof), is actually quite frightening.

    The reason I am being a bit vocal lately over here is because of the disgust I have. The disgust that some of you are claiming to be anti-Scientology activists. When you take on that label, you are a representative of me and all of the people who experienced Scientology as a minor. You are taking on a label of an ‘activist against abuse.’ That label comes with a bit of responsibility and good morale.

    If you are going to represent the children of Scientology abuse, yet, continue to practice auditing, (cough, cough, Karen) You are not representing us. You are representing yourself & your warped pariah relationship with leeching off of us for our stories. We are sick of it!!

    If you are an anti-Scientology activist-ACT LIKE IT. If you are still confused and have to be led, and obey orders from Karen etc. Then move the f**k on. Because you are not an activist. You are a coward and do not belong in the activist arena. Peace.

  35. Stand, of course. I know it’s a tough decision😉

    Wusses, of course – I see no one said “Cave!” even though that is what they apparently want.


  36. Stand. Far better to go march to the ‘guillotine’ held high than go crawling on your knees.

  37. So foolish to send a blackmail letter.
    The result will be the opposite of what it aimed to do.
    Now you can do nothing else but to stand.
    But it is what you do best.
    Nothing like the truth.

  38. Not ASC, but want to offer this to any and all: ” Let your conscience be your guide”.

  39. When Monique dropped her lawsuit she said, however she worded it, that she had achieved her objectives. I assume that means the CoS has stopped harrassing her and she “took a win” on that. Marty runs this blog and both teaches and learns from it. I assume he “takes a win” on that. The alternative thinking for some people might be – poor Marty and Monique. I prefer the former viewpoints.

  40. Stand and exercise your First Amendment rights, dictated by your conscience. I am not personally invested in the matter or have personal knowledge of the facts, so this is what I would advise anyone in this type of situation. People should be able to come to their own conclusions with information they seek out or that which is presented to them. Everyone has the right to make decisions regarding the path they choose to take in their life, and create what they want to have for their future. Good luck with your decision and near-future actions, Marty.

  41. ***Private to Mark****

    Something you might be interested in seeing –

    The person that sent me the screenshots specifically volunteered that I could send the full versions to you if you want. In the above linked to post, we put up edited versions (for now) to protect the person’s identity for a bit longer.


    • Holy um…Holy Halloween!

      Tony’s claim to fame for being a Scientology expert, is that he writes about Scientology every day for a few years. That must make us masters!!!!


      It just may be time to set up our own consulting service and Scientology Entertainment Tonight and hone in on this Market.

      I feel smothered by this, “If it’s not Tony, it’s not true.” era.

      • “It just may be time to set up our own consulting service and Scientology Entertainment Tonight and hone in on this Market. ”

        News flash! Message received from Mercury, fastest of the gods. Sent by From: Roa Subba ( L Ron Hubbard on the planet Farsec)
        To: Orb Turan (Tony Ortega) on planet earth.
        Roa Subba, the great race builder, warns Orb Turan not to mess with my genetic line. Roa Subba has conquered the dull old men of Tolteca ( illuminati). These beings can now modify their appearace. A space ship load of egos are being sent to invade the Underground Bunker.
        O, worshipper of the Moon, look for the light; follow the light. The pet cats of the Lord of the Flames will descend to earth. Reincarnation cycle will proceed on earth and the great battle will ensue. There is no Utopia. There is only the new Scientology race! There is no blackmail only truth.

        • The Gods of Acllaumpaer have been betrayed. Many are enraged. Those that have fallen out of favor with the Gods, have been declared “be earth”. They will have many be earth days to follow. With no carpets beneath their feet. No beauty with which to greet. Only snakes, to gather at their feet. The forests grow, around these kind. The keep them low and make them blind. They become the very needy, ignored or hunted, by the greedy.

          • The master race can not be seen. Identity is just a screen. Purpose rules in every world. Each galaxy this flag unfurled. To bring us into finest magic. Or reduce us into figures tragic.

          • Oh, Cosmic Virgin hear their plight;
            Raise the spirit with all your might.
            Eternal mixture weighs heavy on the soul;
            And justice cleans the heart of dross.
            Make the path an easier goal;
            As if formless falling from knoll.

    • Well, that cat is out of the bag.

      Tonight the Queen sent one of her minions on a “fishing expedition” which gambled on my not having seen the new McClaughry post (I hadn’t yet), intimating that there were “screenshots” from -my- computer! – would I know anything about that?

      Having given an immediate, honest response (this wasn’t after all, an RTC Sec Check), I was thanked and then duly purged from Outer Banks by order of the Queen’s council within minutes of my “confession” (see Oracle’s excellent writing on that subject above…).

      Karen is probably laughing that I took the bait. But you know what? She knew I would. The plain truth is that I prefer to tell the plain truth. There is no hidden agenda on this end.

      • Hi Scott.

        Within 23 minutes of you telling me in private email about this “interrogatory” by ….who was it?…anyway, apparently Karen and Jeff decided on this as their counter-PR:

        quote –
        LEAK: Independent Scientology Mike McClaughry Ron’s Org Excalibur Correction List.

        While the entire leaked document is set forth below, it is important to note the following background. Virgina McClaughry, the wife of the author of the document, Mike McClaughry, is currently a major supporter of Mark “Marty” Rathbun and contributes frequently to his blog.
        –end quote

        I guess it’s a crime to be here at Mark’s blog or something lol but also notice how Karen is all over this thread practically instantly with “likes” and “laughing”.

        Obviously Communicator I/C (the poster) is either Karen, Jeff or one of their minions.

        But LEAK? And…as if this is current info?

        Let me show how you “current” this so-called leak is.

        It’s from THIRTEEN YEARS ago.

        Not even vaguely having anything to do with what Mike and I are doing currently.

        Which was…what again? What was it that Karen reacted to so badly at Outer Banks?

        Oh yea – exposing Hubbard and scientology’s intelligence connections.


        • Well that was kind of a cheap shot.

          Hold up a piece of work intended to help someone – 13 years old – and hold it up to ridicule.

          Not a good indicator.

        • Looking at the responses, do you notice nobody questions this? Is it stolen? When was it stolen? When was it written?

          I mean, they don’t care if it was written 75 years ago by Ronald MacDonald after the hamburger chain was established.

          They just read it and wildly react while communicator I/C makes total asses out of them.

          They are their own worst enemies.

          • It wasn’t even “LEAKED”. That was a false report. It was PLANTED.
            Without regard for restimulating any of those people. With the purpose of restimulating ALL OF THEM. And using them as little bullets to fly at the McClaughrys.

            This is sociopathic, anti humanity, social intercourse. Using people as weapons without regard for their well being, to destroy someone else.

            And the people being used, are so prone to sadism., it flies right over their heads. They just know they have been given another target to stab at. Because one flew over the cuckoo’s nest. And left a dropping.

            • It was, as you so succinctly put it elsewhere, yet another ETHNIC CLEANSING attempt.

            • It is possibly Tony Ortega posting as Communicator I/C, in his obsession to remain relevant, and keep up his street cred as the Pablo Escobar of the ASC.

              • No, Tony O. wouldn’t know what buttons to push via crossposted copypasta. Communicator I/C is somebody with considerable Tech Training, IMO.

                Michael A. Hobson
                Independent Scientologist

                • I am very curious about that. I wouldn’t think anyone with auditor training would post something like that. And it is way out of what comm i/c usually posts.

                  I think comm i/c was set up with that to take the bullets that would fly back. I’ve been reading ESMB for a long time (not as long as you and not for the last few years) and comm i/c just usually shares information and does not engage. Has very little history of degrading others or going down that path. Has actually been one the saner members. Rarely makes mean or vindictive comments. And that totally post was totally out of character.

                  So someone who was cowardly I think, asked that person comm i/c to post that.

                  Because they did not have the courage to own it directly.

                  And my bet would be on Emma, since she was recently admonished on ESMB for stirring up ill will and wallowing in sadism. Even they couldn’t stomach it.

                  I can’t think with a tech trained person using technology to harm other’s sanity or reputation.

            • He is so ignorant about all things Scientology, you could hand him a book on etiquette from Ann Landers,cover removed, explaining it is a Hubbard Scientology super secret document, and he would run with it.

            • “…And using them as little bullets to fly at the McClaughrys.

              “This is sociopathic, anti humanity, social intercourse. Using people as weapons without regard for their well being, to destroy someone else.

              “And the people being used, are so prone to sadism., it flies right over their heads.”

              That is EXACTLY the operation. Right there.

              • Thank you for all of your kind acknowledgements to myself and others.
                You have a very kind and gracious communication standard.

      • Scott- Don’t feel bad. Anyone who is a free thinker gets kicked out of O/B. So take it as a badge of honor. Karen needs to realize that the only people who admire her these days are her auditing clientele. The rest of us are seeing her for the manipulative control freak that she is.

      • Scott: The “Queen” didn’t send me on a “fishing expedition”. I acted on my own, as one of the administrators of the group. You seem to be under the impression that the “Queen” controls me and/or others. In fact, and for the record, the group was not founded by a woman, and I answer to no one. No one gives me orders, anyway. I am no one’s minion. I apply the group rules fairly and consistently to everyone.

        I don’t understand why you chose to mis-characterize my private communications to you as a “fishing expedition” since in my private communication to you, I came right out and told you that I had been looking at the McClaughry’s blog when I saw some screen shots that appeared to be made by you or someone logged in to your Facebook profile. I told you this straight out as a fact. In no way was I on a “fishing expedition”. I then asked if you knew anything about that.

        It was obvious that the screen shots had been made by either 1) you, or 2) someone using your Facebook account. The third possibility is that the screen shots were Photoshopped. I say “possibility” because there was an extremely slim possibility of this. I framed my question in the manner I did because I was being impartial and not assuming anything beyond the fact that your Facebook avatar was visible in some of the screen shots webbed on the McClaughry’s blog.

        • Mark Plummer – I don’t think I mischaracterized what happened too badly, though I will admit that you folks have left me guessing.

          For one, even though Virginia sent me a link to that post she made, you obviously saw it before I did, meaning you were right on top of it in real time.

          In OSA we call this the “media monitor” and it is a “hat” that you apparently wear in Karen’s group.

          These are the Outer Banks admins that you told me would be voting on whether I would be given a “second chance” to stay in the group or not:
          Ronn Stacy (“Alaska Ronn” – founder of Outer Banks)
          Karen De La Carriere
          Mark Plummer
          Kevin Mackey (ESMB admin)
          Mary McConnell (adherent of David Love – an abuser I helped to expose)
          Brett Chance (newly added as admin, and was probably not part of the vote)

          So it does not matter that Karen didn’t specifically order you to do any of this. You were just “wearing your hat.” Apparently you (or Karen) were parked on and monitoring, the “enemy entheta line.” Unless you are a secret admirer of the McClaughry work? (which would be a bad “overt” for anyone – Indy or ASC – this is forbidden!)

          One of the great ironies of Outer Banks is in how it deftly combines the Indys and the ASC into one huge group which as The Oracle points out, has anyone and everyone in it (except for the political exiles like Marisa, Arnie, myself, etc.) and is thus a brilliant intelligence-gathering coup.

          What happens when you share “wins” or anything positive about the tech on Outer Banks? Ask Ian Waxler. I could have taken a screenshot of that one, but I didn’t. It would be quite relevant to these new articles, because it would be further evidence that the Tony Ortega party line is enforced by Karen there. (“This is not a place to share ‘wins’!” – Karen)

          I leaked that single post that bashed the McClaughrys’ work because it is vital evidence of a long-term raging Black PR campaign directed at the McClaughrys. (I will post more about that campaign as I have observed it, on “The Only Good Scientologist” [later in Marty’s series] where it is more relevant.)

          Which by the way, brings me to point out that I did not make my decision to expose Outer Banks lightly – I’m not into embarrassing fellow ex-Scientologists for the “lulz.” You can ask Scott or Karry Campbell for verification of the fact that when I was asked to promise to maintain strict confidentiality, I quietly left their “Independent Scientologists” group (early 2012) after noting what was going on there. I was not going to give my word and then break it. Others were already leaking what was going on there, but I decided I wanted no part of it.

          At that time I could see that Wayne Froemke was getting attacked in there for his start-up of the Facebook group “Progressive Scientology” (Wayne [“Safe”] was also fair-gamed by the church in Seattle ~2000 to lose his livelihood, and then wrongfully JAILED in Denver, Colorado a few years ago in a set-up he barely got out of, and which he says was a criminal scam artist, but was also very likely Intel or OSA Black Ops).

          Note that Karen and Tony are still members of “Progressive” (where I am now an admin – the other admin is a gaslighter and Tony Ortega “enabler” so this should get really interesting – I do have the option to kill his rude comments on my posts), but I have no plans to ever give Tony or Karen the boot, because I want them to see what I am posting and I want them to have a chance to defend themselves or put in their own comments.

          Anyway, thanks for keeping this topic “alive.” There is so much more in this area yet to be uncovered…

  42. You neglected to list a very important 3rd option – Cave, Stand or ATTACK.

    • To some, standing is a form of attack. How dare someone stand? How dare someone expose how things really are? Revealing reality is an attack upon people who don’t wish to see what they’re involved in. When I was immersed in the ASC I would have viewed someone standing up, as Marty is, as an attack upon the group, and henceforth, as an attack upon myself. I am thankful I realized what I was involved in. I don’t think most in the ASC realize they’re IN a cult. There is always hope that someday they recognize that.

  43. Cave, if I had to choose between the two. Cave on all this back and forth that, in my view, is beneath you. I am not one to post comments. I liked your posts on non-Scientology subjects far more than the others. In my view, this back and forth was boring from the start, because none of that is any of my business and it is of little educational value to me. I do not watch gossip tv shows or read gossip magazines, so I do not read gossip blogs. i am not in anyone’s camp or cult, including what arguably could be your cult in the mind of others. I have gained much insight into myself from your article and book recommendations. Please save me from having to peruse the boring Scientology-related back and forth to extract the broader philosophical points contained in your posts. Those concepts make me think and grow. The others points are just noida do chatter, regardless of the source.

  44. stand and while you’re at it just name names rather than “ASC royalty”.

  45. STAND!!!! Stand firm and undeterred. Ignore the people behind the curtain. When it gets to the point of blackmail threats, it’s a good sign you’re doing the right thing.

    And I’m an ASC escapee, so I hope my vote sort of counts.

  46. Mark,

    Today’s theory at the natterblog about you and this Blackmail post, is that it’s *really* all about Tory’s comment she left on the “How Gullible…” post wherein she questioned you about Lisa Mcpherson.

    Somehow, this has been turned into a theory that “this” – the comment – was the blackmail threat you received. They are even arguing about it from the perspective that you never “said” you got an “email” so therefore thusly….you get the idea.

    So far, possibility #1 of Michelle Sterling’s list – that you *are* actually being blackmailed – isn’t even considered worthy of discussion.

    • As the people reading on, “blackmail”, list gets longer and longer…………..

      • Hell. In this crazy climate where rats are running helter-skelter gnawing and biting each other trying to get out of the heat, the next thing you know, I’ll be accused of being the blackmailer as part of some sooper-sekrit vendetta against Mark Rathbun.

        Cuz, you know, I can’t possibly have decided the guys changed or nothing without ASC approval.

        I’m not sure when I’d have had the time though, what with still also supposedly being a sekrit Ron’s Org scientologist, who together with Mike is also a sekrit Independent scientologist currently back-writing 13 year old correction lists – says the ASC.

        I’m having trouble keeping the rats squirrely narratives straight here, Oracle. Help!

        -face palm-

      • I think most people who have explored Scientology, then left. Started reading these blogs, and joining forums and Facebook groups, so they could have the conversations. About the Scientology.

        I don’t really get the ASC groups. No one is talking about Scientology. They might as well be talking about kids that bullied them in grade school. You can get bullied anywhere and everywhere. I have a friend that is in his 60’s and still coping with a brutal high school bullying experience that went on for years.

        He has never lived a day out of his parent’s house. and soon they will not be around to safe guard over him. I’ve been helping him with his mother who is bedridden. And they moved to be closer to me a few months ago. He has no siblings. He has spent his entire 60 years of life with mom and dad. They are good company. But I worry about him.

        He did not join any groups to bully others. He does not have bad attitudes about the culture that bullied him. He did not become mean and sadistic. He does not have ethnic cleansing goals. He does not want to burn every high school on the planet down, and watch every teacher die.

        He did develop amazing skills at handling red tape and documentation due to his isolation, and is a much sought after research assistant in a highly specialized field. He can find needles in haystacks. He can input over 200 words per minute of data on a computer. And enormous sums of money, and often, people’s fate, hang in the balance of his mathematical skills.

        I don’t get this Tony Ortega, who has never stepped foot in Scientology. Who says he is after the Church of Scientology because he hates bullies. Then dedicates every waking moment for years, to bullying Scientologists and former Scientologists. Plus, he has a gang riding with him to do it.

        This is not about Scientology any more. The conversations are not about Scientology. it is, the KKK gene. The Nazi SS gene. The ethnic cleansing goals.

        They will no more wipe out Scientologists or any part of the occult, than the Scientologists will wipe a nation of mental health professionals.

        You can not build yourself up, by tearing others down. You can not fix yourself, by breaking others.

        Most of those people will go to their death bed still hoping to see a public hanging or some public executions. Never knowing their biggest enemy and handicap, is within. And it is going to travel with them.

        There are only two things on this Earth that frighten me. One of them is, “crazy”. “Crazy” is a ser fac out of control that can not be start changed or stopped even by it’s creator. It is un manageable. It has moved outside of the cause and effect laws. It’s creator can not be cause over it.

        Why do you think Hubbard was afraid of it? They are not even allowed in the Church. The only solution mankind has found for this, is drugging them. Even right inside the Church of Scientology, this is their solution too. It is not like someone has a better solution.

        The more you try to make sense of it, the more frustrated people become. Sometimes to the point of anger and retaliation. It restimulates people. And that is all it does.

        We live on a truly beautiful planet with a lot of freedoms. The majority of the population is focused on hopeful goals, pleasure moments. Winning. Creating. And all things beautiful.

        The crazy and destructive are such a small handful of noise, and easily avoidable. In fact, you do have to search for them.

        I would just let it go as a solution. Unless you want to get in there with drugs. Reason, justice, warnings, truth, knowledge, friendship, mercy, compassion, some of these things may temper the forces for short spurts of time. And as long as one is wholly focused while your own life is abandoned.

        Otherwise, you need to disengage or drug. Most people in society disengage. This is why the Church is empty. And why Tony Ortega is unemployed and the curious have been jumping ship over there.

        It is just sensible and the only humane route to go.

        • Disengage or drug? I don’t believe those are the only options, and in fact, I don’t believe at all that drugging is maybe EVER a good option.

          But I do think there is definitely an apparency going on here that might make it look like those are the only options. For example, the apparency that Karen et al are just some kind of rogue band of crazies or cultists.

          EVERY single cult that I have ever dug deeply into the background of, had intelligence factions behind its creation or “fueling”. Not one exception so far.

          If anything, the “humane” route would be to expose the real abusers fueling Karen’s demented I-am-not-a-commoner fire. She is an Igor at best, as I tend to put it, but she is no “Dracula”. She would NEVER be allowed to be – she hasn’t the bloodlines for it (and yes, that is how some of the “Draculas” actually think).

          But, she does make an extra fine front man/fall guy. These people will stand by and watch her burn and congratulate themselves over misdirecting attention off of themselves, yet again.

          The only reason Karen is of any interest at all, in any reckoning, is as a manifestation of what/who is behind her.

          On that note – I think that there are people out there, “Draculas” even, that are afraid of Mark Rathbun – what he knows, or might know, and who he has become.

          No longer “on their board” – and that’s an extremely dangerous thing from people like thats perspective.


          • You could be spot on about it all, and just situated in a parallel universe to mine where conditions are different. From where you are viewing, do the people operate on eight dynamics, or more, or less?

            • I ask because that is the easiest way for me to map out the parallel universes around me.

              For instance, the subject of Scientology, was laid out in an eight dynamic universe. People were supposed to think with it rested upon eight dynamics. But a lot of people shifted in from parallel universes in which the conditions for them, were those of having one, or two, or maybe four dynamics. Not eight. Most did not have any relationship with God or the Gods.
              Imagine the car that needs 16 spark plugs to work, only having two or three.
              Now, I know in other practices, the eighth dynamic is an intergalactic police force. Or, that is a ninth dynamic added to eight. But in that parallel universe ( and I did trip through there briefly), I did not see any evidence of a God dynamic so, I do think that the eighth there, is the intergalactic police force. There may have been other dynamics added in that universe I did not find out about.

              Some of these parallel universe cause people to become confused because of the different math with dynamics.

              A remedy could be available for sociopathic manifestation in other universes that may be superior than drugs. But the problem with these people to begin with, is that they have no theta (spiritual) capabilities. So perhaps they are merged from a parallel universe without any seventh or eighth dynamics at all.

              In that case, yes, to reprogram them, or deprogram them, you would need to find their creator. But if they are creating such manifestations, it would be because they themselves have no theta capabilities. So what cure could they impose upon what they create?

              Within the eighth dynamic universe, you could rely on theta capabilities. And drugging someone from a parallel universe running through this one, with no theta capabilities, is a theta capability.

              If the people in this universe I am viewing from, do not have the intergalactic police force dynamic for their eighth dynamic, or their ninth dynamic, and the highest power they answer to is God or the Gods, the methods are natural methods.

              The opium plant is here for good reason. I’m sorry if it has been overused and misused and marketed wrongly. But it is a natural plant and it is beautiful and it is here as a gift. A solution. I see no problem helping confused people lost in a universe where they really do not have the tools to survive thereby and therewith, to calm down with a little high and try to readjust. I have no charge on drugs.

              The native Indians were slaughtered as a useless burden. The Buffalo killed and replaced with cattle. Nobody asked the Indians how to plant, what to raise, and why or how. What did that get us? The dust bowl. It has been handled by underground digging which will end shortly and the entire mid west is going to become a desert again. That is our current food crop source.

              People with theta capabilities, trust. I trust the Indians had great value. I trust the poppy plant has great value. So does wine, whiskey, rum, and a host of other natural remedies. These things do not frighten me and I do not suspect them.

              Drugs in a bottle, I have a problem with. These are not natural. These are man made solutions to misunderstoods about people and where they are coming from.

              Differences and similarities. If one is not on eight dynamics in this eight dynamic universe. the math does not come out right, with differences and similarities.

              It is nobodies fault. It is the cross town traffic of these parallel universes, and people not being able to see the differences and similarities in these.

              People have to live according to their means. They can be set up for losses when confused.

              • By the way, everybody reading this, is going to have to eat. We all share that. California is becoming a dust bowl due to the same errors made in the mid west. It is covered with cement. Las Vegas is becoming a dust bowl. So, it would behoove you to watch this. Know when the food sources in the med west are coming to an end. That is at the very end of the documentary. And figure out your food supply. The documentary is free to watch on PBS.


            • “You could be spot on about it all, and just situated in a parallel universe to mine where conditions are different.”

              Aside from that I already clarified regarding the “drugs” aspect it seems you were confused about – You aren’t seriously saying that only in a parallel universe could I be “spot on” in what I said originally?

              Screw that.

              I don’t buy that shit at ALL. Parallel universes. What bullpuckey.

              To me, the whole parallel universe thing just sounds like yet another colorful invention, another narrative to try and segregate and marginalize those that don’t toe some kind of equally bs party line about that *this* is *their* universe, their rules, etc. Just more irresponsibility and SELFish behavior, in my opinion.


              • When it comes to “crazy” people, whether crazy by alcoholism that they will not stop, or invented vendettas based on non-existent reasons that they will not stop, or whether crazy by any other self-destructive behavior that IS fully under their control that they will not stop – then yea.

                I usually disengage.

                BUT, and it’s a big but, that depends on the degree to which the person may be trying to take all of humanity with them in their swan dive of self-destruction.

                I tend to have a problem with just standing by and disengaging in examples like that.


                • Thanks for posting the link to your paper here. This is downright brilliant and I hope you publish a book.

                  I do understand what you are saying and how you are feeling.

                  And I agree that anyone trying to take down all humanity should be stopped. I did not mean to imply I’m theetie wheetie. Laughter!

                  I just don’t think we are all on the same page, or ever will be.

                  We can make policy to agree on. That is what puts on the same page with anything. This was the value in the ten commandments. And all of our laws current laws are based on the ten commandments. Which is how we came about with coordination.

                  I know Scientologists have a lot of charge on drugs and psychiatry. But I don’t. These are not reading items for me at this time. Drugs were at one time. I think most people that a “must have” drugs, had “can’t have’s” run on them with drugs at one time. Possibly anti biotics or life saving drugs in a viral situation where drugs were not possible to come by. Maybe in a society that was made ill.

                  Psychiatry is clearly a huge reading item for some people in Scientology.

                  It is a subject, like Scientology. It also contains an identity. So I do not know if the charge is on the subject or the identity with these people. What identity would oppose a psychiatrist? And who or what opposes them?

                  This could be entire thread in itself. And I do not wish to hinder the curious. I do not feel it is just, to just someone from the stand point of an enemy condition.

                  And Scientologists are in an enemy condition towards these people. That is a lower condition. How do you judge someone else from a lower condition? Hubbard was in a lower condition towards his “mental health” peers. Why didn’t he educate them? They were banned from the building.

                  I do not want to be parked in an enemy condition towards a group. I can do that with an individual who is parked there or lower. But I prefer not to sink because someone else did. Only if the other is a blind liability across the boards. And then, I did not presume they represent their peers.

                  I have walked through many cultures and this is why I have the idea of parallel universes. It is not a belief system someone sold me. Shape shifting into these parallel universes is sometimes known as “culture shock”.


                  • I know the “why” behind closing the door on every one else in the mental health industry, is that they are “all bad and misinformed”. But not 12 year old David Miscavige auditing someone?

                    The same thing with the IRS as boogey men. These are bill collectors.

                    Congress makes the tax laws. But you have someone without a high school education running the Church, and IRS are out to get everyone! The bill collectors!

                    This is actually funny to me.

                    • There is invisible currency too. There are invisible currencies deal in. And Scientologists are the most heavily taxed culture I have ever explored.

                    • Have you ever thought about how much a Scientologist is taxed for having a with hold? This a “with hold taxes”. How much they are taxed for “flashback”? For the station of being, “public”? For, “nattering”. They are taxed on sex. “out 2d”, by people that have been out of the 2d for decades! “out ethics” is heavily taxed. Going “off schedule” is taxed. Being “off the bridge” is taxed. Now they have beggar groups just tax people because they are Scientologists! The Largest percentage of the Sea Org staff, are tax collectors.

                    • The prominent figures in Sea Org gov are taxed for unborn children.

                • No where else left to put this reply to Oracles responses starting at 1:13pm so this will have to do.

                  Oracle, thanks for the response.

                  I couldn’t disagree more with your general take on psychiatry and “ethics conditions” and so on, and it has nothing to do with my ever associating with scientology. Scientologists form only a tiny percentage of people that secretly (and not so secretly) utterly abhor the basic arrogant and sadistic premises that psychiatry rests upon.

                  Most people don’t particularly cotton to being locked up and/or told to take drugs and other ridiculous treatments purely because someone else has a disagreement with them – which is what the whole foundation of psychiatry boils down to.

                  That said – the problem with scientology and psychiatry is that there are a number of scientologists that do act as you say, following in Hubbard’s making it merely a GAME to oppose psychiatry.

                  A random choice.

                  A very distinctive (and covert) marginalization.

                  And one done while working for the kind of people that were actually head-over-heels in sadistic love with the very things he was supposedly “opposing”.

                  The education that needed to take place about psychiatry, is that it is really only another outcropping of a centuries long agenda. One that has never been anything CLOSE to being based on objective science.

                  This I have done (or rather will have when I finish out the article).

                  If you or others want to think being electric-shocked (or the newer magnetic fields shocking) or being drugged for nothing is just a fine and humane thing – you’re welcome to it. Several times a day, if you like.

                  I suppose I could possibly characterize your perspective as theetie-wheetie, but I don’t actually much like Hubbard’s terminology in general – and that’s what that is – when it attempts to divert off of a much simpler concept.


                  No one has the right to enforce things like this on another person, period.

                  I’m all for getting along, but not when it comes to this kind of abuse. I also have no interest in partaking in denial on it either, including any form of let’s have a beer and ignore the whole thing together.

                  If that makes me unpopular then oh well, so be it, but somehow I think I speak for far more people than you do on this topic.

                  I’m not afraid of sadistic people like this, and I don’t think others should be made to be either.

                  And they are. Many, many people are actually afraid to say what they really think about it. They carefully tip-toe around it using PC and kumbaya language. In talking with many people about it, it boils down to the simple reason of (and justified) fear of the LIFE consequences of the “mentally ill” label that gets tossed around today as a form of soul terrorism.

                  Soul terrorism –

                  You see Karen de la Carriere doing EXACTLY this in that Outer Banks conversation that Scott Gordon provided the documentation of, and I posted about at our blog.

                  You see it going on by the very creation of “the natter blog” where the very first post is about Michelle thinking she has the right to sit in judgement on my mental state.

                  You see it going on at ESMB, and in back-channel places.

                  This desire to silence people or scare them into submission – and the important part, OTHERS BY PROXY – through the very real threat of methods that are, essentially, the Inquisition simply rebooted? Has got to stop.


                  • I hear you loud and clear. There are people running around gaslighting, spinning people in, forwarding false reports, setting others up for losses. Giving people wrong items, wrong indications, wrong who’s, wrong why’s. And working to destroy the sanity of others.

                    And there are flu virus’ flying around to make people sick. People take measures to stay healthy.

                    I had everything as kid, mumps, measles, even polio. Whooping cough. What didn’t kill me made me stronger. I don’t even get bitten by mosquitoes or spiders. I had a scorpion ride from Idyllwild California to Palm Springs inside my pants leg. I discovered it when I went to the bathroom. It did not sting me.

                    You can spend your life worrying about stopping people who want to fuck with your head and letting them distract you. Or you can just stay sane Beings in native state are nobody’d enemies. There is no enemy condition in native state.

                    I am not a Christian , and Jesus never wrote a book in his life. But there is a lot of truth in “turn the other cheek”. Because people can not drive you crazy, if you do not give them the keys.

                    People will harm attack and suppress you, as invitation for you to sink into an enemy, treason or liability condition towards them. Look at the mental state of the people out here revenge motivated. Sadism.

                    It is anti spiritual, anti humanity, to attack people in your own species. Dogs rarely do it. Other animals species do not.

                    You just have a look at some of these people that have been parked in enemy conditions for years, and what their current state of mind is and how evil they have become. Most of them were parked there in that place as OSA staff. And they were parked there for so long, “enemy” started to look like normal to them.

                    It is normal for predators in the jungles on animal levels.

                    I can actually attack someone and never drop into an enemy condition myself. I can hate the acts, and denounce them, and still love the being. You can hate an act and not hate the being.

                    No, I do not want to hate. No, I do not want revenge. No, I do not want to be parked in an enemy condition towards any culture, race, species, profession, group. It is not my basic purpose.

                    I want to be free to wander in every neighborhood, through every people, through every culture, on any path, without lines in the sand.

                    I want to cross battlefields without being shot or wounding others.

                    I need to think about what is best for all of humanity. Ethnic cleansing or wiping out any part of any civilization or culture, or group, makes me unfit for serving or in responsibility to mankind. For all of mankind. For the care of knowledge and truth. For the ability to view justly and relay knowledge justly. I do work to correct and fix things in my immediate environment and with the people connected to me.

                    My investment into this civilization is long term.

                    I am invested into the eighth dynamic. It is perpetual for me and is a constant. I have a life there. A life that is never interrupted. Not by life or death, current economics, vested interests, special interest groups. Hate groups, ill will, evil, drought, war. famine, treason, betrayal, shape shifting, or any of the temporary and weary forces that burden mankind.

                    And with that life, comes a trust. It’s own forces and conditions.

                    I did not abuse people in Scientology because I answer to higher power.

                    I did not get abused in Scientology, because I answer to a higher power.

                    I am not abused by psychiatry because I answer to a higher power.

                    I answer to a higher power than L. Ron Hubbard, or David Miscavige. Or president Obama.

                    I am not frightened of Earthly powers and how they are wielded.

                    I am not frightened of doctors, or mental health professionals or Emma Sterlings, because I am in charge of my sanity.

                    If someone wants to answer to Karen De, or Emma, or Tony Ortega, or David Miscavige, or their local politician, or their local minister, or whatever, they make those choices.

                    And the lower a power you are, the lower a power you will answer to.

                    These are the conditions.

                    I have my own conditions I am responsible for. And my own peer group I am responsible for. My own sacrifices. My own duties. My own obligations.

                    None of these permit me to be parked in lower conditions.

                    I make my own rules. The ones that I choose.


                    • Because I am trusted, by my higher powers. Not to fly into enemy, liability, or treasonous conditions. Or wallow in injustice.

                    • It might be an interesting experiment for anyone that uses the Volney Mathison electro meter, or psychometry , for exploring the super natural, to write a list of your own making, (not my list please), and check for reads on the meter. Even fly ruds.

                      Whatever you might imagine the eighth dynamic was supposed to mean.

                      The Gods
                      Higher Powers
                      Spiritual Influences of a divine nature

                      or whatever.

                      Whatever your ideas of that eighth dynamic might be.

                      Whatever might bring you into a position to have a higher standard of social intercourse or living or understanding or purpose, through that dynamic.

                      If you have never had an eighth dynamic or any use for it or perception of it, you can just check for “other dynamics?” and take a look at anything that might pop up.

                      List out your own dynamics even if it is less than eight, or more than eight.

                      Know if you are surviving or succumbing through your avenues of influence.

                      If nobody ever pointed out to you there were eighth dynamics, how many would you say there are? And why? Just to know these things for yourself.

                      Just to amuse yourself. if you are still curious.

                    • The definition of the eighth dynamic in Scientology has been changed under David Miscavige, by the way.

                      From this:

                      The Eighth Dynamic also is commonly called God, the Supreme Being or Creator.

                      To this: The eighth dynamic is the urge toward existence as infinity. This is also identified as the Supreme Being. This can be called the infinity or God dynamic.

                      Hubbard said:

                      “No culture in the history of the world, save the thoroughly depraved and expiring ones, has failed to affirm the existence of a Supreme Being. It is an empirical observation that men without a strong and lasting faith in a Supreme Being are less capable, less ethical and less valuable to themselves and society….A man without an abiding faith is, by observation alone, more of a thing than a man.”

                      So why would anyone without an eighth dynamic be handed a cert for “OT”?

                      “There are no clears and OT’s” I hear over and over.

                      Well, there aren’t a lot of people with an eighth dynamic in this theater either.

                      Didn’t “go OT”? Where is your eighth dynamic by the way?

                      If your eighth dynamic items are, “Hubbard” or “Captain Bill” or “Your auditor or C/S” or “David Miscavige” or “Tom Cruise” or your “Internet connection”, or your local “media outlets and vast media connections” or whatever.

                      Maybe you have a wrong item on a list. If you have no eighth dynamic you have a wrong item, the correct item has not been added to the list, you have a suppressed dynamic or you are in a culture or universe where this dynamic does not exist as a potential for you.

                      Or, I left your item off this list.

                    • By the way, can I get a witness? After the release of OT8 missions were fired out from the Int Base to remove any and all evidence of religion from every “Church” of Scientology. All chapels closed. Crosses removed from view. Sunday service canceled.

                      The guy who came to Flag to “wipe all evidence of religion” was a tall blondish guy with a foreign accent. He did not come with a crew that would distract people or call attention. It was a very, very subtle, full power mission on one man.

                      Before I elaborate further, and I will not bother if nobody can else can come forward as a witness, can anyone step forward as a witness to these events?

                    • And then, there is this fixed idea, because of “the bridge’, that one can not be OT if one is not clear. First. Because that is the sequence laid out on “the bridge”.

                      Sure, there is some truth to that. But it is not the whole truth. Not by a long shot.

                      That is math too easy to see.

                    • “…It is an empirical observation that men without a strong and lasting faith in a Supreme Being are less capable, less ethical and less valuable to themselves and society….A man without an abiding faith is, by observation alone, more of a thing than a man.”

                      Pffft. What utter twaddle.

                    • “Pffft. What utter twaddle”. How profound.

                    • Sorry. I didn’t think that piece of Hubbardspew warranted umpteen lengthy replies to get my point across. It is, by “empirical observation”, utter tripe. Not to mention outrageously condescending. Not at all dissimiliar to the militant atheist attitudes you seem to have taken umbrage with.

                    • From your observation, I have to “be against something”, to be myself. You could probably paint a kitchen chair into a “menacing particle”.

                      The hall of mirrors can be a bitch.

                    • Not sure why me disagreeing with a simple Hubbard quote rattles you so, but hey ho. Enjoy the darkness.

                    • Not sure what throws you into hallucinations about my emotional state. Maybe you are just parked there, and it goes that way all day as you read the Internet?

                    • “Militant atheist attitudes” – yes – now that you mention it and bring it over here, mwesten – that’s a fair description.

                      Noted is the attempt to equate the use of Scio terminology or Hubbard quotes – which in the ASC world you MUST take offense at – with the ugly, shark-fest ad-hom that comes along with said “militant atheistic attitudes.”

                      Assumed similarities not similar.

                      Have another meltdown.

                    • These nonsensical accusations are but prejudice. I simply stated my disagreement with a Hub quote. If you wish to discuss why said quote is (or isn’t) both idiotic and offensive, then let’s. I am not interested in ad-homs or “us-vs-them” cartoon absolutism. Your call.

                    • I can believe that it could have been empirically observable at the time he wrote it, in the early ’50s.

                    • mwesten writes:
                      “These nonsensical accusations are but prejudice. I simply stated my disagreement with a Hub quote. If you wish to discuss why said quote is (or isn’t) both idiotic and offensive, then let’s. I am not interested in ad-homs or “us-vs-them” cartoon absolutism. Your call.”

                      WATCHFUL NAVIGATOR responds:
                      You got me there. I was being a “cartoon absolutist” because that’s more fun sometimes, than real life. I don’t have anything much to say about that Hubbard quote that you found “outrageous” – except that I don’t see it that way. Admittedly, it is not something he, himself lived by, apparently.

        • Brilliance and wisdom here. Thanks for that.

  47. I’m not from the anti anything community, but maybe the list could be extended.


    Are two items on a list.

    Kill the messenger
    Go fishing

    etc etc

  48. Cave, Stand, make a stand while sitting in a comfortable chair; that would seem to be your call. If I were being blackmailed I’d do what I felt best and wouldn’t put it up for a public vote, but that’s me and you’re certainly free to do what you want or what others want you to do. But I think you already know this.

    I do think you should publish the emailed blackmail threat as proof along with any identifying electronic stamp that would identify the blackmailer. Nothing stops a blackmailer cold in their feet faster than calling them out. It takes away all their (perceived) power. I don’t care what a person’s position on a certain issue may be; blackmail is low and blackmailers deserve to be outed.

    Curious as to what exactly it might be that someone feels is blackmail worthy. If I’d done nothing wrong I wouldn’t worry at all about someone’s attempt to use false information to blackmail me since they don’t have anything on me that would motivate me to capitulate to their demands.

    I guess this is pretty much what Marisa Sigmond suggested you do. Sincerely hope you tear the scum trying to blackmail you a new one.

  49. Mr Rathbun,
    I’d like to take back what I said in my previous post. I’m not part of the ASC. I’ve never even commented anywhere except for your blog. Sure I’ve read what everyone has had to say and to an extent I still do. Can’t say I’ve ever actually given anyone’s words a whole lot of thought. Except here. Between your posts and the following comments I always step away contemplative after visiting your site. I don’t claim to be anything more than an ordinary guy with a young family. I had friends years ago that were followers of LRH. I didn’t know much about it but it always intrigued me to an extent. They didn’t talk much about it but I knew they were Scientologists. They did introduce me to some of his books but my poor attention span just couldn’t wrap my head around most of what I read. I never claimed to be overly intelligent or educated. Anyway as far as standing or caving, I think there is an inevitability that doesn’t need to be brought up a million more times over again. For my own selfish reasons I said stand. Of course I’d love to hear any new information I can get. Not at the cost of family though. Sir I would just say do whatever is best for you and your family. Your family deserves peace. The inevitable is just that.

  50. I doubt Karen gives orders. I never got any. I was hoping that everyone’s anger and disgust at and of CofS would be enough. Sadly, that does not appear to be the case.

    Everyone who’d immersed themselves in CofS suffered for it. So that’s why I respect all the critical books, movies, documentaries, tv interviews, blogs, etc, even when I feel I’ve come across some errata in them. Big picture think sez it doesn’t matter in the long run.

    • Claire wrote:

      “Everyone who’d immersed themselves in CofS suffered for it.”

      Insidious uninspected assumption?

      I’ve known you on the Internet since the late 1990’s. You never used to say anything like this in the years before you’d been beaten down so many times for your views on your own experiences in Scientology.

      Have you re-remembered your experiences in order to fit in with the anti-Scientology community?

      It’s an honest question.


      • You yourself have changed your tune several times over the years, have you not. Would you call it healthy NOT to change your view as the years pass?

        • It depends on which way it goes, George. If your view of things is getting worse and worse the farther in time you are away from it, then no – I would not call it healthy.

          That’s my point.


          • Alanzo, at times like these, I say “If all you can see when you look is sh*t, then you need to pull your head out of someone’s *ss (often one’s own).

            Michael A. Hobson
            Independent Scientologist

        • I’ve discussed my past uber yucky staff sojourn quite a few times over the years on every single forum I joined

          . It was a scary painful time. I consider it a learning experience and a”whew! I survived.” thing now but at the time…

          I always said being in CofS was bad. Yeah, I did like some of the tech aspects and it’s how I met my husband. But a silver lining doth not a pain free experience make.

          I think if a person really plunges deeply into the cult, they will almost inevitably get messed with and have things go south from there.


          • “I did like some of the tech aspects…”

            Did you change your mind about that, Claire? My impression from reading the comments of many ex’es on several sites over the years is that the majority of them have decided the tech did little to nothing for them or for anyone, or that it was even harmful.

            • I feel I did get something out of the “tech”. But I also know CofS uses it against people. Whenever they’ve done that, it was harmful. And even when it wasn’t harmful, all the mistreatment and abuse would undo any positive effects a member ever would have experienced.

              I don’t see anything intrinsically harmful in TRs, auditing, or word clearing. Also, given the extremely diverse aspects of the various types of processes, I don’t think I could lump them all together as a single type of procedure.

              I know that many exes disagree with me on this, and that’s fine. As an ex Scientologist, I don’t have a dog on the “is it any good of is it completely harmful?” fight. So it’s just how it seems to me.


      • Alanzo, I’m ex staff (mission). It was awful. My first expulsion had me sobbing frequently. The betrayal, the lies and the backbiting hurt. The hassling prior to the second expulsion was unpleasant though it didn’t hit me as hard. So, yeah,there was pain though nothing like what some of my ex SO friends experienced.

        • What I’m saying is that in the early years – and I mean up to about 2007-2008 or so – you would rarely talk about that part. And you would not talk about it in ways that you are even talking about it here.

          Has that memory of that first expulsion gotten worse for you over the years?

          And if you are going to actually heal from any trauma you suffered from it in order to not let it harm the rest of your life – shouldn’t it become less harmful to you as time goes on?

          How politically correct in the anti-Scientology environment would it be for you to say, “Big deal. They tried to expel me because of my dad. Whoop-dee-fricking doo”?

          See? Was there peer pressure to make it more harmful – or to at least never let the harm go?

          And now to say that EVERY ONE who had immersed themselves in Scientology suffered for it. That’s a cognitive distortion.

          And that’s not the Claire I knew.

          See what I’m saying?


          • Sorry – I thought I was talking to Claire here.

          • I’m not experiencing any peer pressure on any of that. I don’t do peer pressure. You know that!

            I experienced pain in my _past_ dealings with them. The memory did not become worse. Since I’ve not had a science fiction mind wipe, I do remember it.

            They didn’t “try” to expel me- they did expel me. Wasn’t because of Dad, either.

            All I meant was that the deeper one goes into _CofS_, the more likely the person is to get screwed with by this cult. I’ve said this many times.

            Keeping involvement in CofS light may prevent this but _immersion_ in CofS does not generally play out well. I’ve often said so. But that’s a reflection on CofS- not on its past or present members. The majority of ex staff going back to the 50s have reported bad experiences.

            My opinion of CofS/RTC has always been negative since I left there in 2000.

            I did talk about it but this was probably lost in the maelstrom of posts where I wasted time attempting to rebut people who were complaining about me.

            It’s always good to hear from you. Peace out.


      • Alonzo wrote on his blog:

        “But the overwhelming majority of never-ins who have been attracted to Scientology-watching are atheists with contempt for any religious or spiritual activity.”

        Insidious uninspected assumption?

        What is the source of this statement? It’s an honest question. A question that you blocked from your blog, by the way.

        This hasn’t been my experience in any way.

          • “This phenomenon of the Overnight SP, which any Church of Scientologist must believe in, is complete, ironclad proof that Scientology training and auditing do not work. If this can happen to a Clear and an OT – and almost everyone in that list above are Clear and OT – Scientologists themselves prove that Scientology Technology does not produce what it claims to produce – and never has”. Alanzo Oct 14 2015

            • Hi Martin –

              I’m wondering why you would take the time to go back, find this post of mine, and post it. You didn’t provide any context for the quote, or the point you were trying to make by putting it here.

              Could you communicate your point for that?


              • Because you have become an overnight SP?

              • As much as there is any point to these conversations, it is this:

                If Scientology has never produced what it claims to produce – there’s ironclad PROOF that it doesn’t work no less – then at best it is a futile chasing of rainbows. At worst – well there’s no need to go there yet again is there.

                So, unsurprisingly, there are a lot of very hurt people trying to make sense of their experience with it. They express themselves in different ways, some thoughtful, others loud and prickly. Some have, no doubt, let their experiences or sense of injustice tarnish their self control and reason. Some get their facts wrong. So what? Who cares? Some exiting the Scientology experience may find solace in this place, others at Mike’s place. Others – evidently – have found Tony Ortega’s blog a relief and maybe had a laugh or two along the way. Good. Why not? They’re less likely to come in harm’s way there than by signing a Sea Org contract.

                “Big deal. They tried to expel me because of my dad. Whoop-dee-fricking doo”? See, that’s just not it for someone for example like my friend Susan Talbot whose disconnection from her daughter Mandy – still at Big Blue – has utterly destroyed her emotionally and physically. And I would venture that your sentiment wouldn’t convey much to thousands of other family members who have lost loved ones because of this evil policy.

                On a personal level I couldn’t give a damn. The gratitude I feel daily for the life I have and the unconditional love I have for my two amazing daughters is all the strength and power I need and want. Luckily for me I never had any family in the church. I am a very very lucky guy. But I see a kaleidoscope of others who weren’t so lucky for any number of reasons. Next week I might stand outside St Hill in the rain with a banner at the IAS event to alert others. Then again I might not.

                So what’s my point? The same point that made The Oracle want to be sick on me and slap me simultaneously apparently – that people might not agree with you – they might be misguided or annoying or self-serving or whatever. Does it matter – really? Enough to engage in a public lynching of them? To brand them cult members because of the way they congregate or talk to each other? The comments on this blog in recent months have been littered with some very personal and vicious attacks on individuals. Enough already – they (we) are all “only human”.

                • Failure is an opportunity. Blame others and the blaming never ends.
                  – Tao Te Ching

                  • Tue, of course. And I promise I will read this properly cover to cover. Right now I am reading a remarkable new book by Derren Brown – in fact I’m going to see him a few weeks – called Happy Why More or Less Everything is Absolutely Fine. There’s a great chapter about “The Secret” in it also.

                • Well Gosh Martin. I thought you and me was good old friends and I could have a down home joke with you on a response.

                  I’m truly sorry if I offended you with my comment.

                  I did not really feel like throwing up or slapping you.

                  Please pardon my disrespect. Sometimes these humors do not translate well over the Internet.


                  • I mistook your post for satire. My bad.

                  • No hard feelings. I would love to go for a beer with you. You may need to bring an icepick to find my sense of humour but it’s there I assure you.

                    • Laughter! You have always been one my favorite posters here. What happened with our comments, is that I had written a comment about giving people discount points for “being human”.

                      So I thought your comment about people being “wonderfully human” was a comedic come back.

                      I was just totally off track there.

                      Thank you for the pardon. I just put having a beer with you someday on my bucket list.

                      XXOO T.O.

                • Martin –

                  I knew that, if I asked you, I would get an intelligent and humane reply.

                  I knew that, when it came right down to it, you would not to go through with yet another Indy OSA DA attempt on me, and would simply make a rational plea for more kindness.

                  Thank you for that.


                • Great comment! Thanks, Martin.

                  So what’s my point? …that people might not agree with you – they might be misguided or annoying or self-serving or whatever. Does it matter – really? Enough to engage in a public lynching of them? To brand them cult members because of the way they congregate or talk to each other? The comments on this blog in recent months have been littered with some very personal and vicious attacks on individuals. Enough already – they (we) are all “only human”.


            • Mother of ALL SPs

              Everyone in Scn knows that SPs are the most powerful beings in the universe because we can cause any OT to instantly lose all the their case and, basically, go tits up in the theta universe. And since Elron is gone and the promised upper OT levels were bullshit, everyone is just going to have to deal. We’re here to stay, resistance is futile😉

    • You crack me up. Putting on the lil Miss Innocent role now. You unfriended & blocked me because of my public statements about Karen. Whether or not she ordered you to unfriend me is up for debate. But yes, she does order people to unfriend people she does not like. There are many long time exes & Indies on Marty’s blog stating that. Also, she has given those orders for me as well. It is ok Claire. I kinda got tired of you deliberately saying the polar opposite of me anyways. You do it with everyone, Just as you are right now, by saying you doubt Karen gives orders. Being contrary is good. But you have some sort of robotic mechanism with it. To the point it is very obvious it is a deliberate act.I wish you nothing but the best in your life. It is sad our friendship had to end because of peer pressure you receive.

      • Marisa, I blocked you because you do exactly what you’re doing now. I do not want those kinds of comments in my life.

        I did not block you because of Karen D. I never discussed anyone with her, ever.

        I don’t put on acts. I’m a human with my own quirks and characteristics and if those show and dismay anyone, well, I’ll just let my freak flag fly and the chips fall where they may.

        Blocking you on FB seemed more conducive to harmony than the way it’d been going.

    • Hi Claire! Nice to see you here! You wrote,

      “Everyone who’d immersed themselves in CofS suffered for it.”

      Not me. But I think everyone that got pregnant, suffered for it.

  51. WOW! My favorite cognition after my personal experiences in the COS was that I did NOT HAVE TO do anything someone else told me to do and when someone threatens me that I find to be “entheta” while promoting the idea that it is I who am being such? I turn to my redneck valence which is a person who can have class or no class in a heartbeat, inevitably turn to the no class, and give middle finger while walking away into the sunlight.

    So, Marty, while I am not part of ASC I did go to an Ortega event in Phoenix , looked at him while sitting through the most boring book and tell show he put on , immediately saw what he was about and ended any interest I had. The same thing happened to every single ASC group I took the time to check into back when I was interested. No interest anymore. No more ASC.

    Walk into the sunlight Marty. Best to you and Monique always.

    • Dats my mama! My.. my…mama knows…knows..what she saying. Bye mama!

    • Hi Sharon! Nice to see you posting here!

      • Thank you Oracle. I am enjoying your posts, that’s for sure. : )

        • I’ll come to Arizona if there is going to be a Tony Ortega book signing event. We can go together! I’ve never seen a real celebrity in person before! Maybe I could get an autograph! I could become very over excited as a fan. You could monitor me to ensure I maintain my composure! Maybe he will have a signing near a hooker district and I could pay some of the girls to come, just to beef up the crowd, Just to give him a hand up.

  52. Marty is gathering material for a new book! “Ex-Scientologists At War”

    • “Ex-Scientologists At War” could be a big seller. Everything about Scientology that can be said has been said, so a new twist is needed. About six new blogs or facebook groups have already started.

      • 2FF! On the floor! We could even stage world wide wrestling matches. Make videos for everyone to watch. Help me stop laughing! Sell verbal fights on podcast! Star a fight club. Where is bunnyskull! Where is bunnyskull! Where is bunnyskull!

  53. Good morning to all of you Tony Ortega Underground Bunker fans!

    Wishing you all a happy Wednesday! Loved the jokes about me! Very funny and creative! Hysterical! I actually opened a folder to save them!

    Thought you all would have a good time with this over at the Bunker, I know how playful you can get!

    I know y’all have been ordered not to come over here and engage, or to look.

    But maybe you could just copy this link anonymously to share over there so nobody will find out you were here. This is just too good not to pass up!

    Have fun with it! It’s The Tony Song!

  54. Good morning to all of you curious and lively people at ESMB!

    Thanks for all of the beautiful memories you have gifted us with.

    I know how loyal and devoted you all are, to all of those that have lifted you higher.

    I thought you all would like to have this.

    It’s the Emma song!

  55. Where’s Lone Star? We need an agitator.

  56. This is a Git yer own Tators kind of place today, Richard. Serve it up!

  57. Tony Ortega actually opened his blog today with a thread of truth.

    “One of the reasons this website exists is to support our project.” I never know who “our” and “we” means, as he speaks for some tribe never introduced to the rest.

    Hubbard used this manner of speaking also, the “we” and “our”. As in, “What we expect of s Scientologist”.

    I took that to mean him and Mary Sue. On that policy letter. I am not sure who it means now. Since they aren’t around to expect anything.

    “Our” and “we” and “us” are all inclusive words and generalities. The same as “everyone”.

    “Everyone knows”, “We expect”, are very similar.

    When Tony says, “our purpose” and “our project” , I guess it is left open to interpretation. He does not mention he began to write the book after he was fired from the Village Voice and needed to lay down an income source.

    According to him, the book is a biblical effort to save mankind from people who were running around like loose cannons on the streets of New York several decades ago.

    But he parked his butt in the Village for years and had no problem with the pimps and their slave trafficking through the advertising dollars he raked in for his employer.

  58. Oracle: …”I never know who “our” and “we” means,…”

    Ortega explains his use of the plural in one of the files at the top of his blog.

    • Thank you Dale for wanting to clarify this. I explained my curiosity to Frodis73 and included the information you refer to, for everyone else’s benefit.

      Thank you for the civil exchange.

  59. On Blackmail.
    Blackmail is an act, often a crime, involving unjustified threats to make a gain (commonly money or property) or cause loss to another unless a demand is met.

    Essentially, it is coercion involving threats to reveal substantially true or false information about a person to the public, a family member, or associates, or threats of physical harm or criminal prosecution.

    It is the name of a statutory offence in the United States, England and Wales, Northern Ireland, Victoria, Australia, and Tasmania, and has been used as a convenient way of referring to other offences, but was not a term of art in English law before 1968.

    It originally meant payments rendered by settlers in the Counties of England bordering Scotland to chieftains and the like in the Scottish Lowlands, in exchange for protection from Scottish thieves and marauders into England.

    From Wikipedia.

    Given this understanding, it might be interesting to look at all of the various types of blackmail used within the various communities out here.

    What happens when a journalist zooms in on some delicate aspect of your life that may be controversial? Such as the fact that you dabble in the occult. Or constantly attacks and targets your children and uses them as a weapon because of your spiritual beliefs.

    Isn’t this a covert type of black mail demanding that you cease your affiliations if you want to live in peace or have your children remain secure?

    What about inflicting penalties upon you for choices you make in the legal arena with regards to your personal interests?

    Steering you with penalties.Threats of harm if you make a choice that does not align with someone else’s agenda?

    Expelling you from a conversation for disagreement or divergent views.

    Anyone gathering intelligence, has a purpose to blackmail. What if the person has an army of tipsters, spies and moles? Intelligence files and folders? Thieves stealing documents and photos. Isn’t all of this for some kind of blackmail with the promise of overt or covert domestic terrorism? If you, “step out of line”? Or step out of favor?

    What is the difference between releasing P.C. folder data which is personal, or the location and conditions of someone’s children? Or details about a divorce or child custody or adoption? What is the difference?

    • Would you consider “defense” an acceptable justification for collecting intelligence?

      This would get into and invoke the sacred principles of “do no harm” and “right to defend.”

      I know you are describing the church and the new operations out there establishing “future-similar” cults, but…

      “Anyone gathering intelligence,” ?

      (all other points spot on!)

      • Maybe. I don’t know to be honest. I gather intelligence by getting people to open up to me. But I am not in this for except for the conversations.

        It makes me feel bad when I see people’s privacy violated. For them. Their children and family. It is like they are being punished for wanting company.

        • Sometimes, you need to gather some facts, before the conversation can become more honest and real.

          I think communication is a dynamic. Perhaps the real eighth. And the God dynamic was the ninth. And I think purpose is a dynamic. Possibly the tenth.

          Great literature and works of art, survive the creator. The bible was a communication particle. Language survives as the planet changes, and people shape shift. Countries shift, politicians shift, and powers shift. Civilizations rise and fall, but language survives through it all. Architecture. Art. Statuary. Cathedrals. Pyramids. Music.

          These are all forms of communication.

          Love and hate are purposes. And those purposes flow through time.

          I think the admin scale Hubbard wrote was quite bright. But Purposes are above goals.

          Why would you have a goal at all, if not to support your purposes?

          Goals, targets, policy, attitudes, opinions, battles, wars, schemes, conspiracies, home invasions over and covert, special interest groups, economy, currency, audiences, applause, momentary needs, these are not dynamics. A person’s “past” is not a dynamic. It is easily forgotten unless someone keeps mocking it up through literature. Even Internet literature.

        • Thank you.

          “Neighborhood Crime Watch” (or any similar communication network) is a good thing for coordinating security at the local level, and this idea can be extended to many situations (including some of those we are dealing with here).

          The difference is indeed captured in the concept of “Intention – good or bad?” Is the information being gathered going to be used ethically, or harmfully?

          Private Investigators (or those who behave like them) are given a little too much latitude in our society in penetrating and violating, privacy, but occasionally it can be seen that information gathered by these methods do put a stop to far more objectionable, harmful behavior.

          I was sent in (by invitation, not by strict order) once to infiltrate the Alan Walter Knowledgism center in Dallas. I couldn’t/wouldn’t go through with it after the first day. I could see that too much deception and disruption of people’s rights to do things their own way, was going to be involved. (I suppose at the bottom of that was an unwillingness to accept the assertion that auditing “squirrel” was any near as harmful as I’d been urged to believe.)

          Investigating (learning, building knowledge) is a natural process that includes knowing ones natural or artificial “enemies” well enough to operate safely and even to predict intrusions on your rights.

          Of course, if you are running a mafia organization, those “enemies” are manufactured by the day, and intelligence isn’t any longer casual observation – it’s everything! Time to look at purposes (and who has time to look at their purposes when they’ve got all their fingers in a leaking damn? [typo pun intended]).

          Purposes above Goals – now that is fascinating and I would say, quite correct.

          And the divine-level importance of communication, as well as an understanding of its structure and handling, was perhaps the most valuable teaching I got from Scientology.

          And architecture and music are among my favorite forms.

          Thanks for that.

  60. Nobody *ordered* us to do anything Oracle. Also, since you seem to be reading over there you know most people stopped posting because everything gets censored.
    As to the “we” you can find the answer to that question under the “About” section. It is NOT what you think, that is for sure.

    • O.K., Frodis73. Accept my apologies. My sense of humor is not current. I know the idea to “ignore” Marty’s blog was just a recommendation.
      I exaggerated. I have been poking fun at him. But it is just teasing. I am mocking his way of not exactly being spot on with the truth sometimes.

      As to thw “we” you are the second person that said. But I was not referring to his general use os those terms. I was referring to his post today:

      “One of the reasons this website exists is to support our project, started four years ago, to learn everything we could about the incredible adventures of Paulette Cooper, one of the first journalists who exposed the abuses of the Church of Scientology and who nearly paid for it with her life”.

      I thought he and Paula were the book project. But it seems there were a lot of contributors. I do not see mention or acknowledgement of them anywhere.

      The “we” question is answered is on his about page:

      “Why do you use “we” to refer to yourself?

      It’s a columnist’s conceit we use out of habit and for no good reason except that it amuses us”.

      Not the “our”. Who’s project is the book? Did many people help as he implies? Was it a group effort with many contributors? He says it’s the purpose of the U.B. to gather intel to find out about Paulette Cooper. Did all of those people help him? I know one did. And how did Monique Rathbun’s articles relate to Paulette Cooper purpose for the blog?

      That was my point, I meant to make.

      But listen, I do like it when people from ESMB or Tony Ortega’s blog come by here to engage. If it is in the spirit of honesty and not used as an excuse to run back to Ortega’s to fair game. I don’t like being played like that. It is juvenile and a pathetic desperate cry for attention and approval.

      I am glad you stopped by to clarify my false report about the order. That was in the spirit of honesty and justice.

      I take that back and stand corrected. Thank you for caring.

      Please post here about your ideas and concerns, experiences and life. I am very curious. I warmly welcome you.


    • “most people stopped posting because everything gets censored.”
      And yet here you are.
      Should we perhaps continue this discussion over at the Bunker? Or SPs ”r’ US? Right. Yeah. Right.. No censorship there!
      So your vote is for Marty to cave and STFU over the unjustified and unsubstantiated accusations levelled against him and his wife by Mr. Ortega and his fan club, and ignore the J&D ‘shoop’ posts scattered across the various ASC forums by his laughing hyenas. Thank you. Noted.

      • I thought Frodis was referring to the Bunker as the place where “most people stopped posting”?

      • Maybe the person has just had a change of heart.

      • Change Of Heart
        Cyndi Lauper
        Here I am
        Just like I said I would be
        I’m your friend
        Just like you think it should be
        Did you think I would stand here and lie
        As our moment was passing us by
        Oh I am here
        Waiting for your change of heart
        It just takes a beat
        To turn it around
        Yes I’m waiting for your change of heart
        At the edge of my seat
        Please turn it around
        Days go by
        Leaving me with a hunger
        I could fly
        Back to when we were younger
        When adventures like cars we would ride
        And the years lied ahead still untried
        While I stand here
        Waiting for your change of heart…
        Blind leading blind
        Never hear the laughter
        Search through time
        Nothing reveals the answer
        If it’s truth that you’re looking to find
        It is nowhere outside of your mind
        I bide my time
        Waiting for your change of heart…

    • In spite of what Tony Ortega plants on his blog as “information and explanation” to define his activity there. Such as, “it is our purpose for a project with Paulette..

      It seems to me the purpose of the blog is to heap indignity upon indignity upon anyone who is curious, or has been curious about the subject of Scientology.

      The same as Nazi occupiers heaped indignity upon indignity upon the Jewish population in Belgium, where Paulette Cooper’s story begins.

      • And Jeffrey Augustine, who’s brilliant satirical portrayals of David Miscavige finally bought us to laughter about the sheer comedy of our perceptions, has sadly fallen his craft into the same sadism.

  61. Preorder sales on Miss Lovely audio book , Tony Ortegas book, must have been a little sleepy. The book hasn’t been on the market 24 hours and there has been a price slash.

    By Tony Ortega
    Narrated By Tony Ortega
    Whispersync for Voice-ready
    Length: 10 hrs and 4 mins
    Release Date: 09-29-16
    5.0 (1 rating)
    Regular Price:$22.71
    Member Price:$15.90 or 1 Credit

    No reference to Paulette Cooper’s input on recording either, he takes total credit.

    When their hard copy book was released I gave them a five star rating.

    I guess I’ll buy it and give a listen, this is Tony’s debut as a voice actor/audio book reader.

    • The price cut on Tony’s audiobook does not necessarily reflect slow sales. Right now there are three prices — one for regular customers, one for Amazon Prime members, and a REALLY low one ($4.49) for those who have bought the Kindle edition.

      I have eighteen books on Amazon so this is a topic of interest to me. Pricing/repricing is perhaps the best way to keep a title in the customers’ field of vision. It’s one of the integers that helps Amazon select the books it will promote at the bottom of the page, so if you’ve bought related books and then there’s a price cut on Tony’s, it’s likely to pop up on your welcome page. Amazon owns Audible, so they’ve got control on both ends.

      Its sales ranking actually looks okay, and the various formats have drawn 223 comment, which indicates good sales.

      • Thank you for all that information! Wow! I do have an amazon account but I have been an member for years. Anyway, never saw a price on a day of release before.

        Great to hear you have so many books on Amazon! I’m impressed!

  62. Marildi wrote:
    “Maybe so. Don’t forget Milton wrote in the English of several centuries ago – very hard for most of us nowadays to read.”

    Agreed. But a deeper reason is the decline of religion in general especially in 2015-2016. Milton could actually be understood if the fundamentals of religion were not in a state of flux based on fashion. I recently read the first three volumes of his masterpiece. I was astonished to find he was using a lot of sources outside of the Bible. He had a very broad classical training, in fact.
    Pali is easier to understand once you grasp it, but only a few preserve it.
    IMO, there has just been a takeover by science. People dream of going to Mars or some moon. This makes ancient religion look foolish to the new generations. People also lump Scientology into religion. That makes it even worse.

    • I humbly disagree.

      There has been a huge RISE in the attendance in Evangelical Religions – AKA the religious right. (but let’s not digress into that discussion)

      There is an enormous interest and rise in the “mindfulness movement” across the US, Europe and Canada, and other parts of the world.

      The mindfulness movement IN PART does not focus on the “religious” aspects of Buddhism or Hindu (where meditation started).

      People are severely stressed out for a myriad of reasons.

      LOTS of science and meditation have joined in Universities in the US and elsewhere.

      Ancient religions taught fundamentally will not work. It’s a new era. New time.

      People IMHO do NOT lump scientology into religion. They lump it, IF they even think about it — into a kooky celebrity based, odd thing.

      Which is why IMHO it’s impossible to discuss scientology ever. It’s been too marginalized. And those who were never in – either on staff, Sea Org or as public will never ever “get it”.

      JUST like those who have never meditated for 5 minutes, to hours or weeks or years will ever understand what it means to quiet ones mind.


      • Hi windhorse,
        Point well taken. I did not consider the mindfulness movement or even Yoga. I based my conclusion on a survey mentioned in an editorial in the Tampa Bay Times. It was by a “professional” who just completed it. I think he was saying that the basic Christian movement and the Catholic movement were in decline.
        We also found out very quickly that it is impossible to discuss Scientology with the public. The “image” is far too negative.
        We find a lot of 20-24 year olds who do not care for religion.
        I’m surprised to hear Evangelical is growing. The Baptist Church near us is in serious decline.
        Much Metta,

  63. Question – If someone votes “cave”, would they then be allowed to make future comments? Naturally, in that circumstance, bitching about future moderation would not be allowed. Maybe it just goes in the “wait and see” category.

  64. WIndhorse: …” those who have never meditated for 5 minutes, to hours or weeks or years will ever understand what it means to quiet ones mind.”

    Some people experience deep mental and emotional quiet through absorbed and extended work on their chosen craft.

    • I don’t doubt it. Since I don’t have a chosen craft I could not speak to this.

      I’ve heard runners can experience this. Dedicated gardeners. Etc.

      Thanks for commenting.


      • Christians, Jews and Muslims would like everyone to pray. Buddhists and Hindus would like everyone to meditate. Scientologists would like everyone to audit. The world goes round. Scn’ists would not be allowed to meditate since that would be mixing practices.

        Most people in the world have no interest in quieting the mind. Speaking for myself, since watching Going Clear and participating on the blogs, my mind has been very active. I’m aware of data overload or overrun and step back when necessary.

        I tried meditating a few times this year and I could see it had benefits. Thoughts continued, but there were interludes when I was suddenly tuned into my environment with few intruding thoughts.

        It might sound strange, but I find some rock and roll music meditative, stretching the word. I can often turn my attention nearly totally outward to the music and the music might carry in my head for a day, which someone might liken to chanting. When I get older I might switch over to Gregorian chants. For now, gimme that old time rock and roll.

    • Very true! Not knocking mediation either, as I know that benefits many people. You can also experience such quietness doing mundane chores: dishes, scrubbing a floor, etc

  65. I’m aware of some of the conflict between Tony O and some other people. No way am I qualified to comment on that.

    I will say that his blog does cover a LOT of interesting Scn stories and I find them informative.

    I get along with Jeff Hawkins, too.

    I wouldn’t call this acrimony an ASC cult, myself. Cliques develop. Unfortunately, accusations, cyber bullying and internecine warfare result. People get hurt.

  66. I myself, detest all forms of blackmail.

    All I know Marty or Mark Rathbun is a loving father and has a loving wife.

    I admire Monique for the person she is.

    And frankly we have a bigger “game” to tackle.

    We do not want Trump acces to a Nuke button.

    That is my personal oppinion and it has nothing to do with this post.

  67. The AGM of the ASC
    I’ve just come back from the Annual General Meeting of the Anti-Scientology Cult incorporated, and it was a bloody disaster.

    Nobody could agree on ANYTHING.

    It started out OK, the usual “hello’s” and “how’s the kids?” but then when we all sat down to commence the meeting it fell apart like an overcooked brownie.

    The first agenda item was to elect a cult leader. At first we asked for volunteers. We got crickets. I mean NOTHING, NADA. Everyone was looking at everyone else or pretending to answer an important text on their phones. Some even excused themselves to go to the loo.

    After it became clear that no-one was going to voluntarily put their hand up, the next step was to nominate candidates.

    I was getting pretty hungry for the scones I could see on the side table & wanted this to go fast so I nominated the obvious – Tony Ortega.

    Well Tony looked like he’d been seen a ghost. He was busily typing away on his laptop but when he heard me call his name he stopped typing and looked up, his face pale as ice cream. “No! I can’t” he says. “I’ve got a family, and a blog to write & places to go.” He then added “I’ll support the new cult leader by writing blog posts, but that’s really all I can offer”.

    Well that was disappointing.

    The next name nominated was Karen De la carriere. I think it might have been Chris Shelton who nominated her but I can’t be sure. I was looking longingly at the scones.

    “No! Not me!” she cried. “I’ve got a business to run, a Youtube channel to maintain and animals to rescue. I just don’t have the time.” She then turned to Jeffrey and they both got up and left saying “I’m honoured to be nominated but we are late for a dinner engagement”. With that they fled the building.

    The next name to be called was Mike Rinder. I relaxed a little bit then. I knew we were finally on the right track. Mike got up slowly and looked around the room. “Well” he said in his weird 1/2 American 1/2 Australian accent, “I’m honoured to be nominated, but I too have a family, with little kids, and a blog, and Christie and I are off to the snow in a few weeks. I don’t have time to be a cult leader”.

    GODDAMMIT! The scones were getting stale & this was going nowhere.

    I stood up. I waited for the room to go silent. When all eyes were upon me I began….

    “My fellow cultists, if we are to run a successful cult we need a leader. There is no such thing as a cult with no leader! Who among us will stand up and take on this most prestigious of roles?” Then the finger pointing started, people were pointing at each other and saying “you do it!” “no, you do it”. It was mayhem.

    Then Mike Rinder, who had been quiet since he turned down his nomination says “Michelle – why don’t YOU do it?”

    The crowd went silent. I started to sweat. “Well, I would like to” I said, fumbling my words, “Except I’m not worthy. I can’t even run a message board without people disagreeing with each other 24/7. Besides, I don’t even own a caravan!”. I sat down quickly and hoped everyone would stop looking at me.

    It was useless….after that people just started talking among themselves and eventually someone went over to the table and grabbed a scone & a cup of tea. More people followed. That was my cue. I grabbed a scone and got out of there real fast.

    So we still don’t have a cult leader. It’s terrible. How can we be a bona fide cult when no one wants to lead.

    So, to anyone out there, if you think you have what it takes to be a cult leader, please show up to the next meeting. I think it’s at Karen’s place.

    If you want to comment head over to the forums: The AGM of the ASC

    • This is becoming more and more the writers and poets corner!

      Vert witty!

    • Wow! Sounds like you all had a fun time!
      At your next meeting would you be so kind as to ask Mr. Ortega (or Karen) for the evidence the ASC claims to have proving that Mr. and Mrs. Rathbun have made a deal with OSA? I would ask the ASC directly but outcasts aren’t allowed to attend the meetings.
      I think we’d ALL love to get this public hanging over and done with so we can get back to our knitting.
      Thanks awfully!

      • Wasn’t that info dangled in front of people as a carrot to attend their gathering in Cleveland? Off the record attorney-client privileged info about their case with some strange justification I saw in a screen grab on media lush’s site a few weeks ago by Tony himself, justifying it as okay because the info was freely given and it wasn’t his attorney [paraphrasing, but that was the gist of it]. To avoid confusion, ML had the screen grab of Tony’s comment from the UB.

        While I was still planning the convention nothing of that sort was discussed at all. Nor was the level of ‘security’ and I’d say flat out paranoia. It was, at that time, an open event—to all. Nary a mention of revealing such information either. I wouldn’t have even attended an event that did such a thing, and if that did happen—the revealing of privileged info, everyone who heard that should have 2nd hand shame for listening to that. The group think is strong, but somewhere, moral compasses must have been going off the chart!

        • Not sure. Alanzo mentioned in an earlier post that ‘Howdycon’ attendees had been offered a chance to finally see the incriminating ‘evidence’ against Marty and Mosey but I don’t know who or what his source was. Whatever the fluck is going on could we just get it the fluck out in the open and move on. So sick and tired of SEKRITS!!!!!
          Mr. Ortega?
          You have the floor…
          Still waiting…..
          During the interval please feel free to enjoy more of Jon Atack’s regurgitated Scientology over at the bunker – BARF! – sorry! Is that low-toned? – can’t help it, I’m a jerk.

        • “Wasn’t that info dangled in front of people as a carrot to attend their gathering in Cleveland? Off the record attorney-client privileged info about their case with some strange justification I saw in a screen grab on media lush’s site a few weeks ago by Tony himself, justifying it as okay because the info was freely given and it wasn’t his attorney [paraphrasing, but that was the gist of it]. To avoid confusion, ML had the screen grab of Tony’s comment from the UB”.

          FOR REAL?

          • Did it HAPPEN? I dunno. I would hope someone stopped him, if he did indeed have privileged info—that he shouldn’t have had in the first place. I know I saw some comments here mentioning it—I apologize I don’t recall what post/s. Media Lush’s blog, hold on, let me see as that might be quicker to find as a reference as I know what post it was on his blog. Okay, ML links to a comment Alanzo made on a post here mentioning this, you replied Oracle—but I understand so much info/so many comments it’s hard to keep track! I hope linking to a comment of Alanzo’s from this blog is okay

            If you go to ML’s blog, his entry from 9/11 covers this, he has a screen grab with a quote from TO, who appears to be commenting about Alanzo’s comment here–on the bunker. He doesn’t flat out say he didn’t have privileged info but he does say this “…since it didn’t involve my own attorney and was material freely given to me was, by definition, not attorney-client privileged information.” Uh, what?! Doesn’t that read as if the attorney wasn’t YOUR attorney, and that attorney who wasn’t YOUR attorney, freely gave you attorney-client privileged info, then hey, it’s okay?

    • WTF? “The AGM of the ASC” is Marty’s post, not mine.

    • If you are going to quote a post of mine in full, please at least attribute it to its rightful owner.

  68. He prommissed you Order, He promissed you peace:

  69. For anyone who has spent any amount of time in the boulevard of broken dreams (ASC or otherwise). Keep fighting for whatever it is you believe in. At the end of the day, that’s what it’s all about:

  70. This Bunker Bashing is getting boring. Come on guys don’t you have anything else to talk about

    • Flunk! You didn’t state cave or stand – Marty missed it

    • I just listened to ten hours of his audiobook. No I don’t have anything else to talk about. Did you hear it? I was merciful with a review for the effort .

      Lord have mercy it sounds like witness testimony in a courtroom and does he ever take a breath? Listening to the book was like taking a pounding! One long whine and complaint that went on and on for hours.

      He “reports” in the book that Aleister Crowley is “arcane” . Just for starters. he has attitudes in place all through out the book. I had no idea how arrogant this man was until I listened to him tell the story. The book seeths with arrogance and resentment.

      And what does his anti Scientology hate, flogger and batter blog do to bolster his credibility?

      At least I did not blow off this steam in my review for millions to read. I listened to ten hours of him talking and never once heard the slightest evidence of emotion in his voice.

      Did give me a great idea for a new invention though. Robot readers. You type in the text or enter it, and your book is read by robot. You know, like those GPS voices in your car? Or the answering machine voices?

      Take the motion that comes in, and use it to win. Boom!

      I’ll watch how his audio book sells and if people can stomach that as a read, I’m onto something here.

    • Half of the reading sounds like his nose is full of snot. I was desperate to hand him a box of Kleenex. I think he was sick and didn’t want to lose a deposit for recording time or something.

    • miscavigeisscaredofsam

      You first? Marty was ready to walk away from all this shit (I know because I had a personal discussion with him about it at the time) and I’m sure Mosey and her family are as sick of it as everyone else. Marty is an easy target because ‘everyone hates him’ but does that REALLY justify using him and his wife as a punching bag ad nauseum? The Bunker is (clearly) perfectly capable of standing on its own merits without the need to devolve into bashing common enemies to drum up support and if Tony had left well alone and just let Marty go and do his thing in peace none of this would have kicked off. So the question now remains does Tony really want this all to go away so he can focus on FAR more important matters or is he enjoying the added attention of having pissed off the sleeping Marty adding new gossip fodder to the fire? Because it’s in HIS hands and his hands alone to clear up the current confusion and yet he steadfastly refuses to do it.
      Does that make us ‘Marty lovers’ and you ‘Ortega lovers’? Not really. It’s more a matter of common decency and clean, honest ‘journalism’ actually.

    • OSA, OSA…

      We disconnect thee!

      We disconnect thee!

  71. Alex castillo x Flag Evaluator

    In this new game of yours I am neither “cave” nor “stand”
    I think you may remember me and where I have been. I have followed your track for quite some time long before you started this blog to present time, and I have followed events since then, only occasionally posting, when I felt what I had to say was relevant to the existing scene.
    Once upon a time you got yourself trapped in a world you thought was a good place to be in, later you realised it wasn’t the right place for you and you extricated yourself from it. Given the circumstances, it was a brave and honest thing to do.
    Then you had the courage to speak up and got hammered for doing so. Even then you stayed true to your own integrity and stayed on track in spite of attacks and accusations of guilt from different quarters. It’s easy for me to assume that you did not know who your friends or enemies were. Not a nice place to be in.
    Then you wrote your books, expressed your thoughts on this blog and other places and the “I am your friend” and the “I hate you” games continued to this date. The bright and the not so bright are actually using your persona as a form of entertainment and as a method to introduce their own stuff. Meantime the ones who actually appreciate you as a person are staying silent, maybe only communicating with you privately.
    Perhaps you would “rather be a hammer than a nail”, but as far as I can gather, your understanding of human behaviour and other things is enough for you to extricate yourself and your loved family from this non optimum
    game you have chosen to play. I say non optimum because it doesn’t seem to be doing any good to anyone except for those who find it entertainig and those who love internet limelight. Forgive me for being blunt and perhaps intrusive but THIS doesn’t HAVE to be. And Marty, that is from the bottom of my heart.
    If you decide not to post this, you can reach me at

    • Extricate himself from the non optimum game he decided to play?

      How was he supposed to ignore five months of gang and media stalking on his wife, family and home? I think you missed season one of this series.

  72. Tony Ortega promoted his audiobook on Reddit yesterday and made a bunch of degrading statements on the experience of having been a Scientologist.

    I wrote something about that.

    Vulnerable: Tony Ortega’s Degrading Stereotyping of Ex-Scientologists


    • Hi Alanzo,
      To me, there is truth in what you write concerning Ortega’s attitude about Scientology and ex-Scientologists. This whole idea about the “ruin” is a complete misunderstanding since that drill is used only in very specific situations. I never did that drill on anyone in 17 years. I remember getting FSM checks from a few people who wanted to avoid the idiots that were “finding ruins”.
      It really boils down to the “distance” you had from Hubbard. As a money paying public, I was only looking at what Hubbard could deliver. Yes,I was vulnerable when I entered in 1972. After an Army tour in Korea (1969-1971) during the Viet Nam War, I had had enough of Lyndon Johnson. Having been raised a Catholic, I was really, really vulnerable to Hubbard. This guy took all of the Occult books popular from 1888-1934, which I never read, and developed some anti-Christian message which I never heard. I had learned exorcism in the 6th grade thanks to Sister Polycarpa so I could easily do the OT levels. I actually already did up to OT VII in her class drills in the 1950’s.
      So I had a distance from Hubbard. Where do I put him? – up, down or to the side. Some put him way up and paid the highest price and may fit Tony’s description of an ex-scio. In the end, Hubbard tells me that he is acting in the role of Lucifer in developing Scientology. It turns out Hubbard could not qualify as Lucifer. Sister Polycarpa told me all about this is the 6th grade. She told me all about Lucifer and what he stood for. Why he is in the mind of mankind. His real meaning in symbol and in myth. Hubbard comes along and truncates classical religion; he can’t even get Lucifer right. The proof is in the pudding. You get to OT VII and Hubbard has you dealing with minor demons. You get to OT VIII and he tells you to go back and audit the GE. Hubbard read tons of pages of Occult. It gave him the peculiar look he manifests in his photos and the peculiar sound of his voice. After a while, he lived the part and tried to melt in. He simply created a bubble around himself. As an outsider, Tony cannot understand this. What Ortega is missing is that a bad experience like Scientology can build true character.
      I call Hubbard the half-way man. He half way understood classical literature; he half way understood religion. He projected himself as source but really copied 90% of Scientology from Occult books. He just changed the terms –
      invader forces, implants, statics,theta etc., etc. etc..

      • Thank You George
        Your helpful comments on OT VIII and upper levels over the last years have been greatly appreciated.

        About this “Halfway” Source.

        Hubbard, in referring to the planetary situation of missing technology, called this the “almost” planet.

        I now see Scientology as the “almost” religion.

        With an “almost” therapy. “Almost” complete lower Bridge (talk about an anti-social leaving incomplete cycles! – no Grade III ARCx processes to speak of).

        “Almost” patriotic. “Almost” social reform.

        But far from ethical.

        Hubbard could not/ would not complete many critically important cycles of action!

        • WN,
          Thanks for the kind words. It has been my mission to clarify the issues surrounding OT VIIII.
          I agree. Hubbard left many incomplete cycles in 1986, the year he died. He then made even more promises in the OT VIII document. He was going to be elected a great political leader; he was going to “take out” the illuminati; he was going to return as the anti-Christ. Sounds like a busy man.
          I think a lot of it traces to the “bubble” that he built around himself. You get to reading the Occult and the ego grows and grows. Suddenly, you are clairvoyant and all powerful. The mind becomes absorbed in magic. It has been reported that David Mayo even wrote chunks of the auditing tech. It is apparent that Hubbard left a lot of “voids”. How could Hubbard claim to be acting in the role of Lucifer? Lucifer would have completed the bridge up to OT 9 at least! Actually that’s not far from the truth of it, according to Occult doctrine. Hubbard worked on Battlefield Earth at 475,000 words but neglected to complete OT VIII and OT 9.
          Unlike most Occult leaders, Hubbard had a far stronger belief in his past lives and future lives. Hubbard was one of the very few that was very specific.
          I attribute this to the fact that he was far deeper into the Occult than he ever admits. Even Lucifer had far more doubts about his purpose. I attribute this to the fact that Hubbard truncated the 8th dynamic leaving it the individual. Mostly dealing with only seven dynamics, Hubbard would have grown his own self-importance under the warm lamp of the Occult. But in dealing with only seven dynamics, the upper bridge was doomed from the start. The ancients had run into this barrier hundreds of times. If you truncate the 8th dynamic, you cannot even have a Lucifer. So all of Hubbard’s bridge, its value and its philosophy crumbles again in another contradiction. The primary contradiction is Hubbard as the Buddha. Totally impossible given Hubbard’s definition of the thetan. Even if you trace all Buddha’s to a Hindu “all”, Hubbard’s theory falls apart because he specifically referred to Gotama and Original Buddhism. Hubbard even claimed to be the wrong Buddha. That is how wrong he was.
          Much Metta,

      • Hi George – thanks for your comment. I hope you don’t mind if I stole it from here and put it in the comments section of my blog.

    • Tony now thinks he is a mental health expert. I’m not kidding. His evals are not insightful. People get vulnerable when they pass by a bakery.

    • He makes himself relevant DAILY on Scientology and Scientologists and former Scientologists and anti Scientologists and he has never crossed the threshold of a Scientology Organization. He needs Scientology more than all of us put together.

    • People that read his blog are vulnerable, to bullshit.

    • Right from the beginning he mislead people. He made it sound like he was leaving the Village Voice to focus on their needs and dilemma. Their concerns.

      He got FIRED. HE was the vulnerable one when he got into Scientology.

      And if anyone is “into Scientology”, it is Tony Ortega.

    • And he is so dense he still hasn’t gotten the memo that when Marty has something to say to the press, he contacts Anderson Cooper or Tampa Bay Times . Not some street hawking town crier twit with a blog running with a gang of ethnic cleansing witch hunters.

    • This is what I’m talking about!!! He tells them over there that he is actually a former Scientologist.

      He’s got himself on Rotten Tomatoes site as a “celebrity”. And on IMBd site as an ACTOR.

      I’ll bet you that guy even has a Screen Actor’s Guild card and is a member of SAG-AFTRA.

      Do you have any idea how obsessed he is with SAG-AFTRA?

      “UPDATE: SAG-AFTRA’s publication will no longer sell ads to Scientology”
      December 4, 2014

      “There are thousands of Screen Actor’s Guild members who have taken lots of Scientology courses who ….” February 2, 2015

      “Many are listed with Screen Actors Guild and are easy to find” April 16, 2015

      .”… of the magazine of SAG-AFTRA (the Screen Actors Guild‐American ….” Jul 5, 2013

      Just on page one of googling tony ortega screen actors guild.

  73. “We made a decision some time ago that the only way we’d continue to stay in this game was to focus not on the same old political essay writing but on original reporting, surprising our readers by not being predictable, and by doing our best to piss off everyone — right, left, and center”. Tony Ortega

    He spends four years heaping indignity upon indignity through his blog on anyone that has ever explored Scientology.

    Then he asks: Why are so many Scientologists angry jerks?

    Why are you so angry Tony?

    • Because you don’t like bullies? All you do with your blog is bully people 24/7.

      Someone had to tell you. Now that you have bullied people for years over their personal habits and inclinations, can you open up and share with us, what are yours?

      What is your religious affiliation (if any)?
      What do you do for self improvement?
      Do you believe in spirits?
      Do you assume all experience exploring the super natural is damaging?
      Where is your wife?
      Where are your financials?
      Did you encourage someone to have an abortion?
      Will you ever admit you were fired from the Village Voice?
      Do you think all people involved with religion are “quacks”?
      What was your peer group before people curious about Scientology?
      Who are your friends and associates?
      Who are you in a relationship with?
      How has Scientology helped you?
      How has Scientology harmed you?
      Do you abide by the Journalists code of ethics?
      Do you consider yourself an unbiased “reporter”?
      Who is the next target after Scientologists?
      When you “out” child adoptions, is it because you consider orphans fair game?

      Does anyone else have questions for Tony Ortega?

      • Tony Ortega:

        Have you submitted Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) requests to the CIA re L. Ron Hubbard and Scientology?

        Have you shared or withheld these results?

        Have you gaslighted others for speculating on the implications of these results?

        Are you in any way associated with Project Mockingbird and/or the CIA or any government agency?

    • Who or what propelled you to “ruin utterly” Monique Rathbun?
      As you bitterly complain of G.O. and OSA, do you employ former OSA and GO resources for your work?
      Profit off of their knowledge and experience?
      Do you know how much money Paulette got from her law suit and why she decided after so long, it was not enough for her to move on?

    • Was your multi pronged assault on the Rathbuns, labeled, “Operation Freak Out”?

    • Didn’t you heavily invest to have the Rathbun’s publicly indicted for crimes you never proved?

    • Who / what set you up to wield this kind of abuse and injustice and come off like a sadistic hallucinating bully wallowing in injustice?

    • Did you write Paulette Cooper’s story because she took money in a legal settlement, not to?

      What is your financial agreement with Paulette Cooper? Is she profiting off of your book?

    • Are there any boundaries to your reckless disregard for the truth?

    • Do you frequently, maliciously, disregard the actual facts?

    • Isn’t it true that as you attack the G.O. in your new book, most of those people are in your employee now for various considerations?

    • Why is it better to sell sex, than self improvement?

    • Regarding the law suits for torture and abuse, bought upon your newspaper, as a result of your executive decisions, will you ever address these in the media?

      Have you ever bothered to read the testimony of those children?

    • Have you ever bothered to look into the indignities those children suffered because you had “payroll to make”?

    • Are you ever prone to shame or remorse?

    • In promoting yourself as an “expert Scientologist:, might that be considered:
      1. Having an exaggerated sense of self-importance.

      2.Expecting to be recognized as superior even without achievements that warrant it.

      3.Exaggerating your achievements and talents.

      4.Being preoccupied with fantasies about success, power, brilliance, beauty or the perfect mate.

      5.Believing that you are superior and can only be understood by or associate with equally special people.

      6.Requiring constant admiration.

      7.Having a sense of entitlement.

      8.Expecting special favors and unquestioning compliance with your expectations.

      9.Taking advantage of others to get what you want.

      10.Behaving in an arrogant or haughty manner?

    • Is it true that you bragged in an email, ““More people find out about Scientology from me, than any other source.”?

    • Have you implied that you have “vast media sources” others would not be entitled to, because they are too stupid to find a reporter’s email address?

    • Is it true you have tried to push numerous stories through other media outlets to substantiate your own? And have been brushed off hundreds of times to the point that people do not bother to answer your emails now?

    • Should a newspaper that traffics people be given tax advantages and write offs, such a “business expenses”?

    • Tony, I have hard copy evidence that you post stories on demand and on command. Do your readers know?

      Was this the case with Monique Rathbun?

    • When did you removed this small print from the bottom of your blog?

      “Learn about Scientology with our numerous series with experts…”

    • Tony, I noticed you were spreading it around that you worked on the documentary “going clear” (because you answered some questions) and you are already throwing shade on Alex Gibney.

      But Tony, did you really set up yourself as a celebrity on Rotten Tomatoes site over the “Going Clear” movie? And promote yourself as a FUCKING ACTOR?

        • And on IMBd, he is a celebrity “Actor” that plays HIMSELF.

          In the theater of Scientology! With FIVE film credits!

          Are you all, “playing yourselves” today? Guess what? You are celebrities!

          • The Oracle, I just saw this flurry of comments because I subscribed to this post when I made a comment. Unlike the comments, this is one I must respond to. Maybe, since it’s a factual correction, it will pass muster and you’ll be able to see it.

            You don’t understand how IMDb or Rotten Tomatoes works. The actors in films don’t list themselves on these sites. The information comes from the production companies.

            If you look at the page for Going Clear, you’ll also see credits for Paul Haggis, Mike Rinder, Spanky Taylor…even Marty. Do you believe that Marty had anything to do with being listed for that film or any of the others he’s credited with on IMDb? I don’t.


            • Please, I am member of IMBd. I do understand how these things work. I can go to Tony’s page and edit myself right now.

            • However, I do not follow his blog and history ,to keep the “news articles” and his bio updated.

              I guess you mean to imply that several “production companies” which we shall not name, do. As there are several productions listed there involved with his several mentioned videos.

              Right, Tony Ortega is the focus of several nebulous “production companies” who keep his page there current.

              O.K., which ones are they?

              Tony Ortega inc
              Tony Ortega inc
              Tony Ortega inc
              Tony Ortega inc
              Tony Ortega inc
              and various Tony Ortega incs.

              • I didn’t mean to imply any such thing. I said exactly what I meant. The cast and crew lists and other official information included for films, etc., on IMDb is based on the credits, which are established by their production companies. There are certain sections on IMDb that can be edited by members, such as Trivia and Goofs. But mere members of IMDb can’t edit the official credits directly. All they can do is submit a request for a correction. Otherwise the information listed would be monkeyed with all the time, like Wikipedia, and it would be totally unreliable.

                And you chose to ignore this, so I’ll repeat it: “If you look at the page for Going Clear, you’ll also see credits for Paul Haggis, Mike Rinder, Spanky Taylor…even Marty. Do you believe that Marty had anything to do with being listed for that film or any of the others he’s credited with on IMDb? I don’t.”

                If you don’t believe that all the credits came from the official production company credits, then you must believe that none of them did (in which case Marty and Spanky and the others all added their own). Or do you believe that they were all included, correctly, but Tony was not, so he had to make a point of asking to have himself added?

                • You imply he does not have access to these web sites and no input. It is controlled by production companies only . Since I myslef can control everything on there, I can not in good measure contribute to this mythology.

                • All pages are not the same, all pages have different input, different editors.

                  Marty does = Tony = Brad Pitt = Robert DeNiro on IMBd.

                  This site is like Wikipedia. People can access. Are encouraged to access.

                  You would need to submit Ortega’s computer hard drive, and any hard drive he has been near for the last decade, to prove he had nothing to do with that web site. And that anything written on them was done by “production companies”.

    • Tony, have you really been selling yourself as a ” former Scientologist ” to Reddit?

      Apr 6, 2015 – Tony Ortega, journalist and blogger, former Scientologist.

  74. Should an organisation that tears families apart through their policy of sex ads and trafficking, be granted tax deductions?

    • Tony, your retaliation and stalking efforts are legendarily are they not? Have your shared this with your readers:

      Responding to Village Voice on Sex Trafficking

      “After my Sunday column criticizing Village Voice Media for providing a forum for sex traffickers on its websites, Village Voice has struck back”.

      “Attorneys General around the country have linked Backpage to arrests for trafficking of underage girls in 22 different states. As my column noted, one recent case involved a 15-year-old girl here in New York. A previous column I wrote cited a 13-year-old girl peddled on Backpage”.

      “When Amber Lyon of CNN aired a piece about a 13-year-old girl trafficked on Backpage, Village Voice went after her and even published a piece in an affiliate in her hometown. It’s because of this record of Village Voice using journalistic tools to go after critics that Alissa chose not to use her real name”.


      • I just don’t get how you stalked a 13 year old child to her home town to fair game her, after she was tortured and brutalized through your own efforts to make “payroll”. Then you write a book complaining about a grown woman that bull baited and harassed the Church of Scientology for years through her own publications, and, by your own testimony in your book, other people’s as well. You seem to be very picky and choosy about who deserves to be bullied and who does not?

  75. Tony, Did it ever occur to you that Aleister Crowley is “arcane” because your own profound thoughts, contributions and literary standards, encompass ideas and essays such as this:

    “How Scientology plans to take over the world: By boring us to death, apparently”.

    • Congratulations Are in Order
      This year’s Nobel Prize winners will be announced this week, honoring those who have dedicated their lives to making the world more open and connected through science, literature and the pursuit of peace.

      Did you get you name on the list of nominees?

  76. Well, I suggest all of us street people break it up and go home. Get out of the way of the relevant , the movers and shakers, the A list celebs, the royalty, the ones that matter, the ones that carry the torch and promise for mankind. The ones with vast media resources, the ones that pull the strings of our very reigning government. The Big Shots.

    Unless you can make yourselves useful by joining BSMO. Big Shot Messenger Org.

    I have bequeathed all of my ( relevant to this situation ) records to Marty. I consider emails and correspondence from any of the elite, biblical documents of historical value.

    Perhaps when Martin Scorsese is filming his documentary of all of this, and branding their names into history, these small dispatches will bring further illumination upon our species. And the potential of our great inherent powers and capabilities.

    In the meanwhile I will removed my trashy unhinged insignificant impotent undynamic self from the streets, so the red carpet can begin to roll out. I do not care to get in the way of the cherubs with trumpets leading the procession.

  77. THIS is why.

    Ortega –

    The document that showed up this morning in the court’s docket says very little, but but we are hearing that news of this decision was delivered to the lawyers by Monique’s husband, Mark “Marty” Rathbun, who was once a high-ranking official in the Church of Scientology.

    …If the Rathbuns wanted to settle, they were in a great position to do so, having just won the appeal, so firing the attorneys who might be able to get that settlement seems like a strange move. From a legal standpoint, this move makes little sense, our experts are telling us.

    We put in messages to both Rathbuns and all four of their former attorneys and have not heard back from them. We did hear from TX Lawyer, our commenter who is an appellate attorney in Texas and has provided expert guidance on this case. He sent us this…

    “I just pulled up the motion to withdraw on the Texas Supreme Court website, and all I can think is that this is crazy.

    …I note also that the motion to withdraw expressly says that the legal team was discharged “without cause.” That’s lawyer-speak for “we are not giving up our contingency fee.”

    …What’s even more bizarre to me is that there does not appear to be any replacement counsel. The legal team is just being fired, without anyone to serve Monique in their stead. That is not wise.

    Ortega –

    This is a developing story and we will bring you more as soon as we can.

    UPDATE: We’re seeing a lot of commenters assuming that a secret settlement deal had already been worked out, and that as part of it Scientology asked that Monique fire her attorneys. As far as we’ve been able to determine, that is not the case. Talking to several people familiar with the case, we believe that settlement talks with Scientology have not yet begun.

    UPDATE 2: Several readers have noticed the Ingleside address that Leslie Hyman provides for Monique. We have been told that the Rathbuns have, indeed, moved back recently to Ingleside and are no longer living in the San Antonio area.

    UPDATE 3: Just received this from one of our regular legal helpers: “I think this is the most absurd action by a client that I have seen in my 20 years of practicing, except for actions taken by prisoners or mentally disturbed plaintiffs.

    Ortega –

    One of the consequences of this is that the home address of the Rathbuns was included in the document — if Monique still had representation, we might not even know that the Rathbuns had returned to Ingleside, near Corpus Christi.

    …We will be watching the docket closely to see if a new attorney does make an appearance for Monique, or to see if the case is ended, which would suggest a settlement is reached.

    The Bunker: Many readers, feeling an understandable concern for Monique’s welfare, have said they assume she just became tired of the litigation and wanted out. But isn’t it true that if Monique asked Ray Jeffrey to dismiss the case outright, even without a settlement, he’d be obliged to do that?

    TX Lawyer: If the client directs the lawyer to dismiss the case, the lawyer is obligated to follow that direction. In very, very rare instances, that might result in the lawyer bringing a lawsuit against the client, but it is the client’s decision whether to prosecute the case, not the attorney.

    … TX Lawyer: …If Marty thinks he knows more about David Miscavige than Ray Jeffrey does, I suspect Marty is about to find out that he knows way less about the courtroom than Miscavige’s lawyers know.

    …we noticed that it was Scientology leader David Miscavige who had filed the motion about his attorney, Lamont Jefferson. It turns out that since Miscavige first hired Jefferson to represent him in Texas, Jefferson has left the firm of Haynes and Boone and has formed his own firm, Jefferson Cano.

    Really? That was worth a court motion? Miscavige takes advantage of the stay being lifted to notice the court that his attorney has started a new business? Sheesh.

    …Now, Monique has fired her attorneys and we suspect that the case will settle

    …TX Lawyer: The only reason I can seeMiscavige having to settle after this petition, and knowing that the Rathbuns are now on their own, legally-speaking, is that he might decide that the litigation just isn’t worth the expense. Also, monkeys might fly out of my butt. He has no reason in the world to settle this now!

    Ortega Reddit, 4 days ago.

    Q – Do you have a theory as to why Marty Rathbun has changed so dramatically from being part of the anti-Scientology scene to badmouthing a bunch of people recently?

    Ortega answer –

    It’s kind of hard to reconcile the Marty Rathbun of 2009-2014 who led the most significant revolt against Scientology leadership that we’ve ever seen with the Marty Rathbun who pretty openly tried to sabotage Ron Miscavige’s book and then Louis Theroux’s movie — and just three days before it opened in theaters. I’m reserving judgment for now until I see more about where he’s headed.

    Q – excerpted: How likely is it that the Rathbuns could’ve been threatened / extorted into dropping it?….Is there such a thing as a “back room” settlement that isn’t made public at all?

    Ortega answer – excerpted: in Texas, I am told, the methods that they would have to find out whether there is a settlement and then pursue satisfaction are pretty robustare pretty robust…


    “Reason” clearly has no truck with these people.

    • You think? Is this his fan base:

      Q – Do you have a theory as to why Marty Rathbun has changed so dramatically from being part of the anti-Scientology scene to

      “badmouthing a bunch of people recently”? Does he have teenagers following him?

      I thought his fan base was senior citizens who did not foray into golf or have any other social outlets?

    • Anyway, don’t let it get to you Marty. He will perpetuate the lie over, and over, and over. And his fans and close conspirators, will expand on the myths.

      It has become it’s own thing now, it’s called:


      Like, Greek Mythology.

      Most of these people had dreams of becoming mythical creatures. They turned Hubbard into one. Tony is inventing himself as one. They will add you to the story.

      It is all part of Scientology Mythology. And there is no way to “fix” that.

      You have become a mythical creature. You will become whatever they say you are. That IS mythology.

      And Tony Ortega is the creator of, Scientology Mythology.


      • Stay tuned for my “SCIENTOLOGY MYTHOLOGY” blog folks! Where I will voyage into the creation of “Scientology Mythology” as written by Tony Ortega, David Miscavige, and other various contributors!

        • The parallel universe, where, “what is not”, is FAR MORE interesting, than, “what is”. !!

          Spend your remaining years exploring this beautiful kind of hallucinatory universe! What you want to believe, is what is! What you want others to believe, can be arranged!

          Where you can create or contribute to , any scenario! Position yourself as any figure you want to be! create your own fame and fortune and legend!

          Step into the wild and wonderful world, of Scientology Mythology!!

  78. Roa Subba, the great race builder, desires that a sekrit new cult be formed, codename TAUB. (The Anti Underground Bunker) The sekrit password is “How-You-Be?”

    • Richard,
      This is great intention. But if you published the sekrit password, it is no longer
      I always like to see “Department of Corrections” when I pass along the Florida Highway. I feel so confident that my tax dollars are used to do something
      really valuable. Who or what is being corrected is not important. I don’t even care about the methods employed. As long as there are corrections, I’m happy.
      So I think it is great to send the Underground Bunker to the Department of Corrections. Here is the interview:
      1. Why do you call ex-scientologists crazy? No answer
      2. Do you feel superior to ex-Scientologists? No answer.
      3. Have you been harmed by ex-scientologists? No answer.
      4. Would you like to be friends with an ex-scientologist? No answer
      5. Are you a professional psycho-analyst? No answer
      6. How do you really know anything about ex-scientologists? No answer.
      7. Can you telepathically measure the pain and damage of an
      ex-scientologist? No answer.
      8. Are you confused? No answer.

      Well, as a corrective action, you need to listen to one-hundred tape recorded lectures by L. Ron Hubbard over the next one-hundred days in our lovely concrete overground correction facility complete with barbed wire.

      • Laughter! – “As long as there are corrections, I’m happy.” Yes, temporal and spiritual corrections should remain separate.

        This Shaman I’m channelling is persistent. He’s still stoned from a vision quest he finished last week (earth time). I’ll dismiss him.🙂

      • This is definitely not The Path of Buddha. I am sad to read your summation.

  79. As Roa Subba gathers followers, Black Dianetics upon the UB will commence. Large parts of the human population will rapidly shift to “How you be?” as standard greeting.

  80. And stay tuned for my new blog coming, The Unbrakable Mr. Money ! Featuring podcasts with the vicitims , their parents and attorneys. And activists who tried to put the brakes on the Village Voice sex trafficking debacle! Also testimony and court records! Screenplay in the works!

  81. Tony Ortega –

    In a bizarre document, Monique makes accusations that her former attorneys — Ray Jeffrey, Marc Wiegand, Elliott Cappuccio, and Leslie Hyman — had made it “abundantly clear” that the lawsuit was “not worth it financially,” and that the attorneys had filed defective paperwork that allowed Scientology’s attorneys to file appeals that caused delay. Also, she says that these defects were put into the complaint of her lawsuit, originally filed in Comal County in August 2013, over her “strong objections.”

    “I do not have the resources, the time, nor the motivation to litigate in the Supreme Court of Texas against Scientology’s army of lawyers in the defense of errors made by attorneys who subordinated my wishes in favor of interests inimical to my own,” Monique writes.

    “I’m mystified by the references to their former attorneys,” Ray Jeffrey told us after we read the contents of the document to him. “And I strongly disagree with any implication that the lawyers were unwilling to go forward because there was not enough money in the case. We were fired, we didn’t abandon the case.”

    He added, “I will say that the case has put a lot of strain on the Rathbuns, and I wish them well.”

    Notice this part and how Tony quoted it, cutting it off –

    “I do not have the resources, the time, nor the motivation to litigate in the Supreme Court of Texas against Scientology’s army of lawyers in the defense of errors made by attorneys who subordinated my wishes in favor of interests inimical to my own,” Monique writes.

    Look what Ortega left out –

    “Consequently, I believe it would best serve justice, judicial economy and the public interest to voluntarily terminate my lawsuit.”

    From Monique document –

    And here’s what I think is the real point of this document and the Rathbun decision to terminate.

    These lawyers (on both sides) were using the Rathbun case to try and set a precedent and Monique stopped that from happening by ending the case.

    “It is a travesty that the statute (Texas Citizens Participation Act) designed to prevent suppression of the rights to speech, association and petition has been used to delay remedy for violations of those very rights in this case for two and one-half years. However, resolving the issues presented in the instant Petition for Review would do nothing to correct the statute’s vulnerability to manipulation that effectively vitiates the Texas Constitution’s Open Courts Policy.

    I would have done the same thing.


  82. More of Tony Ortega’s Operation Freakouts!

    After “Attorneys General around the country have linked Tony’s advertising dollars to arrests for trafficking of underage girls in 22 different states.

    He went after the New York City Police Department!

    This Fkr goes WAY back with domestic terrorism through the media!

  83. In response to your challenge I am going to side-step here a bit in order to clarify my thinking on the subject.

    Firstly, I am not much of a believer in many of the uses of the term “karma” except in the sense that karma is simply the unfolding of the future based on the actions or inactions one has engaged in in the past. I am not convinced that “everything” that happens to one is the “direct” result of their actions or inactions, but it is demonstrable that one does bend the nature of their future by their choices and actions.

    Secondly, the words STAND and CAVE are both emotionally charged concepts. To me, “stand” is emotionally a winning choice, and “cave” is emotionally a losing choice wherever they are used. “Stand” suggests holding to your ideals, whilst “cave” suggests giving up your ideals.

    One thing I get from the Tao Te Ching is that it appears to be written to discharge, diffuse, or avoid, such emotionally charged concepts. Therein perhaps lies its wisdom.

    So putting these two concepts together seems to lead down the road of emotionally neutral “reason” (as in considered thinking) leading to actions or inactions directed toward creating one’s desired future.

    My thinking is that interjecting emotionally charged concepts into one’s reasoning has a good chance of leading to emotionally charged outcomes.

    So my thoughts are to move forward with whatever action or inaction you choose, observe the outcome, and then be willing to make adjustments that eventually lead to your desired future.

    A lot of words to say “follow your heart and your dreams”.

    Eric S.

  84. OK, Ill participate in this little highly scientific shindig– I am sure most of my fellow UB commenters would say the same, but I cannot speak fot them.


    You know, like it seemed to me you used to.u

  85. Obviously you should speak as you want to. I really enjoyed the peaker versus non-peaker post. I used to be a Scientologist, but don’t really care a fig about it these days. I have former very close friends who no longer talk to me. But I have no axes to grind. Carry on writing interesting things.


  86. Although I’m quite new to reading this blog, I would say ‘Stand’..specifically if I were to be “Marty”, i would be singing this song by Ben E King

    “Stand By Me”

  87. I feel all answers are simple and this can be an overall solution idea. All, in whatever on-line community they remain faithful to need to apply what the ‘church’ doesn’t apply in its own policy entitled, “Non Scientology Staff.” That means once Marty and even Mike Rinder left the fold of “dear leader” they are automatically pardoned with their slates wiped cleaned for whatever actions done while in the fold. That’s the long and short of it for all to accept. Next, I observed a lot of love present and among all who attended Marty’s wedding ceremony, which Mike Rinder administered to Marty and his beautiful wife. It actually chocked me up as it was deeply heartfelt. Next, After recently going through every single post on Marty’s blog from the very beginning to the end, I observed so many posts (more than I can count) that included links at the bottom to articles written by Tony Ortega while he worked and published them at the Village Voice and also to Tony’s posts when he started the Underground Bunker blog. Thus there was obviously affinity present between Marty and Tony, which all can witness for themselves. As a suggest how about you, Mike and Tony get together, give each all a big hug–based on that earlier established affinity–look at and support the good points that each are doing on their current paths and make all good between all of you. If someone needs to apologize to another then do it during the embrace (hug) or during the hug to the one being apologized to. Onward and upward and hugs to all here!

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