Ruthless: Rape and Hypocrisy

 

My attention was directed to the latest on Karen De La Carriere’s Surviving Scientology youtube channel.  There, kept-man first-class Jeffrey Augustine interviews Ron Miscavige’s ghostwriter Dan Koon, in no small part in response to my review of Miscavige’s book Ruthless. The effort is understandable if one reviews Karen’s eager promotion across several fora of Ron Miscavige’s expose’ of his own flesh and blood. At the same time it highlights the hypocrisy that is the trademark of the Anti-Scientology Cult (ASC).

It is apparent in the book Ruthless that there is only one thing in his life that Ron Miscavige considers more intolerable than the thought of bearing any responsibility for his own son. Beyond piling on his living son while pile-driving his deceased wife Loretta, Ron’s book obsesses most with asserting his innocence to rape charges brought against him in the eighties. A great deal of Ruthless is devoted to complaining about the alleged injustice of being arrested, booked and forced to defend against the charge.

Here’s where the hypocrisy enters. A few years ago Karen offered me thousands of dollars to indict and convict Ron Miscavige of that very rape charge on my blog.  She said that Ron had confessed the crime to her in Clearwater Florida in the eighties and she wanted to publish it.  She said it was fair game for publication because even though Karen was a Scientology counsellor at the Clearwater facility at the time of the confession, Ron had admitted the crime outside the four walls of a counselling session.  She said that Ron told her, “Karen, I don’t know what got into me. I lost my mind. I got rough with that girl. I raped her”, referring to the woman outside Philadelphia who had so accused him.  She referred to Ron Miscavige as a predator who needed to be put away for the protection of society.

I told Karen that rape is a serious charge for a he-said/she-said accusation and I would not be taking the subject up.  Karen pressed me with a plea that it would do all manner of harm to David Miscavige and Scientology.  I informed Karen as I had on numerous occasions that that was not my purpose nor the purpose of my forum and that until she and others evolved from such hateful motivations they would continue to live the miserable existences they did. I also reiterated what I told her several times: that I never allowed editorial influence no matter how generous one was with donations to the blog.

Fast forward five years. Augustine on behalf of De La Carriere is using her forum to attack me for pointing out the hypocrisy of Ron Miscavige’s book.  Kept-man second-class Tony Ortega does accept money for publishing salacious content. That is how he makes his living. Only now Karen doesn’t want to protect the public from a rapist, she wants the guy pointing out the rapist’s hypocrisy to be discredited. As per usual, on-demand Tony dutifully complies.

There is another layer of hypocrisy. Ruthless ghostwriter Dan Koon’s first response to my review of Ruthless justified his efforts by promoting his next ghostwriting assignment, Jesse Prince’s book. Dan wrote of it as if it were the continuation of carrying out a noble endeavor. Meanwhile, Jesse is making the rounds swearing that he has evidence backing De La Carriere’s rape accusations against Ron Miscavige. The problem with a culture of complaint is that the blaming never seems to end. Ultimately, it has no other ends.

This business with trying to get me to publish Ron’s confession occurred while Ron was still with Scientology’s priesthood (the Sea Organization). So, here is the lesson in ASC ethics. A confessed rapist who is a Scientologist deserves life in the penitentiary. A confessed rapist who is an anti-scientologist deserves sainthood and the best defense money can buy. If you are with ASC against Scientology, you can get away with murder (or at least violent rape). If you don’t toe the party line, you are “bought off” or worse and are fair game for attack by those who themselves have long-since sold themselves. Kettle, meet pot.

380 responses to “Ruthless: Rape and Hypocrisy

  1. It appears some in the “ASC” consider the CoS to be “fair game”.

  2. Ron Miscavige is a hitter. He hit his wife and more than likely also hit his kids. For this reason alone I am not interested in his story. The US government already has evidence the Church of Scientology is a danger to Society, so discrediting it by exposing the crimes of its members isn’t going to get much legal traction with the Feds.

  3. It sounds to me that wrong knowledge is bleeding off like the steam of a pressure cooker out here in Scientologyland.

    Revenge seams to be at play. And it seems to me that you, Mark, are tired of it. I think I’m getting you now Mark. I wasn’t sure before.

    Have you ever walked by a yard with a bunch of scared angry dogs? One dog, usually the leader, runs to the fence and starts yapping and snarling.

    Then the others, the followers, join in barking and snarling.

    At some point they get so whipped up in a frenzy that they start biting each other.

    Hate, even for dark souls like MIscavige, is self corrupting.

    Hate causes haters to bite and snarl at each other.

    This Scientology diaspora needs healing. And I only know of one virtue that is a one shot road to healing and that is love and forgiveness.

    I wish with all my heart that love manifests here.

    I will ask all those who frequent these blogs, who believe in or experience a Higher Power, to pray for the healing of this Scientology diaspora and all the souls who still have wounds of the spirit.

    Maybe Karen and all the rest should just get on with their lives and be comforted by the fact that Scientology is destroying itself and doesn’t need you.

    Pray for healing. Pray for all. And if you are a powerful being, a big being, a being at cause……………… pray for MIscavige.

    Send him and all of those trapped in wrong knowledge waves of goodwill. Goodwill from your open heart.

    May all those with wounds of the soul, smothered in hate, revenge, pain, grief and anger be healed by the Great Light of Spirit.

    Do this in the morning and at night.

    Create a tsunami of love and good will for all these broken winged soul birds.

    To you ALL I send my hearts love. Do the same. it works.

    • Whats the saying; “the wheels of justice grind slowly, but exceedingly fine”. We may not be around to see things balance out in others universes, but we can take the right thoughtful and heart felt position in our own. There is too much nastiness afoot for my faint heart. I am with you Brian. Nice comment and very much needed in my view.

    • Above Brian says “I think I’m getting you now Mark. I wasn’t sure before.”

      When Mark posted this topic yesterday I read it and then took a quick look at the Underground Bunker. The hostility which flared there somehow encouraged me to reread Mark’s last several posts, just his posts or short essays if you will, and not the comments. I wanted to follow just his own line of thinking. It was a worthwhile endeavor, free of noise, and I feel I now have a greater understanding of his viewpoints.

  4. As a game becomes compulsive, we tend to confuse hurting the enemy with helping our friends.

    That merry, eager phrase “it would do all manner of harm to …” takes me back to Melbourne Guardian Office 1969, when Gordon Bellmaine and Ian Tampion urged us to attack politicians who supported the legal ban on the practice of scientology. Attack then meant picketing State Parliament and writing letters to the newspapers. Our propaganda against them was puerile and sometimes dishonest, but the Church’s line was that they were all “bad people” who “deserved it.”

    • Good comment.

      Both the CoS and the anti-scientology groups outside the church would have to be classified as cultures of complaint – as are many other groups and probably most of society at this point in history. I think the best answer to speed up evolution towards a higher state is through education – which is what Marty has been contributing to by keeping the discussion going.

      • They are all playing “Ain’t It Awful”, to varying degrees of seriousness and damage.

        • I see this condition as a symptom of the philosophy of Scientology itself.

          Fighting bad guys, fighting cosmic enemies, attacking the attacker is a learned behavior.

          This inharmony amongst Scientologists does not occur in a vacuum.

          It is my opinion that this is still the mind of L Ron Hubbard at work in the minds of people.

          I say this as someone who has been house cleaning Scientology ideas to the trash for 32 years.

          Fighting and attacking is a learned behavior. Some here have “study teched” information into their brains (mind) for decades, since teenagers, during cognitive forming years.

          This infighting, blaming and attacking, and the emotions of anger and resentment is the essence of how Ron dealt with any opposition.

          People are venting. It’s probably a good thing. There is much pain and betrayal underlying all of this.

          It’s a sad state of affairs.

          Ron really never taught conflict resolution for all conflicts. Because he assigned some of the opposition as SP-an absolute evil.

          If resolution and harmony is a good thing, then folks should get together over a beer or tea and cookies and communicate.

          Geeze! What a novel idea……. Communicate.

          But when the opposition is put into the category of “bad” “evil” “irredeemable” and “ill intended”, something Ron did all the time, then each side hunkers down behind the wall of judgement and projection.

          So here we are, with all of these highly trained Scientologists out of ARC.

          If understanding is a good value then why don’t all of you get together and communicate.

          Sit down with each other and share feelings, ideas etc.

          It’s my strong conviction that working out misunderstanding in social media is like shooting ourselves in the head. Resolution never happens and it makes things worse.

          So here we are, with “highly trained” Scientologists proving yet again to the world that the “tech” and its ability to resolve all issues is bogus.

          And David Miscavige is eating popcorn and saying to himself,”those damn SPs are fighting amongst themselves finally.”

          Fighting and attacking are the fruits of Scientology. Resolving conflict is not. It seems we have proof yet again.

          This in fighting amongst friends is yet another warning to the dangers of Scientology. Maybe that’s a good thing.

          The heroic way would be to suck it up and get together and find common ground. But that would require face to face communication.

          Isn’t that what it was all about? Resolving through communication.

          Why is it so easy to have enemies you guys? Why is it so easy to default to blame, name calling and impugning the character of others?

          Scientologist’s do it with such flare and expertise. Maybe physically we are out of the church, but I am not so sure about mentally.

          I am open to your responses. But please respond to my ideas, not me as person. Ad hominem is evidence of a bankrupt argument.

          I think you should all call a truce, get together and hash this out.

          If seeing the good parts of Scientology is a desire for some, start with demonstrating the EP of grade 0.

          These are not SPs. These are just pissed off, angry, betrayed and sad people.

          • Brian, there’s a book titled *Culture of Complaint: The Fraying of America* by Robert Hughes, in which the author takes the view that this is an American phenomenon that came about during the Cold War era. Here are a couple quotes from reviews about the book at Amazon.com:
            ——————————————
            “From Publishers Weekly
            Euphemism, evasion and propaganda are woven into the fabric of American public discourse. . . everyone claims victim status and a ‘cult of the abused Inner Child’ flourishes.”

            “From Library Journal
            Hughes . . . attacks Americans for having become a culture of complainers, symbolized by their growing claims to be victims of this or that injustice and their demands for the expansion of rights without concern for duties and obligations.”
            ——————————————–

            There’s also a review at the Barnes and Noble site that refers to “America’s difficulty in seeing past the end of the Us-versus-Them mentality implanted by four decades of the Cold War.”

            So I don’t think you can blame it all on Ron, although Ron himself was no doubt influenced by the culture of his time.

            • “this is an American phenomenon that came about during the Cold War era. ”

              I believe the culture of complaint was not generated by the Cold War, but developed as the Cold War thawed, and Americans lost a common enemy.

              • Dale, I’ve read that Nietzsche believed that if an enemy did not exist, it would be necessary to invent one. The idea was to strengthen the group as a group. Hubbard thought this was necessary if Scientology were to survive, so he applied the principle by making psychiatrists the enemy (and, to some degree, they already were an enemy).

                From the perspective of Eastern teachings, this mentality would be the result of fundamental human psychology, which is based on viewing existence in dichotomies or dualities – e.g. “us” and “them.” Thus, the mentality comes about “naturally” – which, to me, would make it quite plausible that the propensity fed on the Cold War.

                However, Ken Wilbur in his integral theory states that “us. vs. them” is just a stage in both individual and cultural development, and that humanity as a whole is in the process of evolving to the next stage – which he sums up as “all of us.” He says that some individuals and cultures have evolved to or towards this higher stage and others not at all, but that a tipping point will come and there will be a major shift in civilization.

                • Wasn’t he coming from a more Hegelian view though? The idea that one supposedly needs two opposing views to create a new “better” one.

                  • Maybe, but I didn’t get it that way. Rather than the idea of two opposing views per se, Wilbur says there is a natural evolution of ideas towards greater and greater inclusion of others. And it seems to me that this natural evolution occurs because of the underlying universal truths that are intuitive or instinctive of our more basic nature, and these truths would eventually arise. So I think Wilbur is on the right track.

                  • It just occurred to me you thought I was talking abut Wilbur. I was referring to Nietzsche in my original comment, not Wilbur.

                    • Yes, I got that. It was Wilbur’s idea I was describing as not merely “two opposing views” creating a better one. His theory is that there is a standard sequence of evolution towards views that are more and more inclusive of other people and things.

          • Hi Brian!
            “I say this as someone who has been house cleaning Scientology ideas to the trash for 32 years.”

            That explains it. I’ve been cleaning for only 27 years.
            It is amazing what I found since 1989. During the last four months, I have been “burning the midnight oil” reading Hubbard’s sources – like thousands of pages of the great philosophers. It is like pulling Scientology, like a palm tree, out by the roots.

            MM,
            G

            • Hey Brother George!!!!!

              Indeed! wrong knowledge…… it’s the only source of ignorance. Sometimes it’s lodged in the neuro pathways with such subtlety, masquerading as a superior point of view.

              Reading right knowledge, realizing right knowledge, and dissolving the mind through spiritual practice is the way out, or should I say the way in.

              But you know this and I’m just writing for the sake of relating to you.

              Such a pleasure to connect George. Thank you!

              I hope all these folks find friendship again. It only takes one “big being” to start the process. But that’s how I try to live.

              “Life is ever unreliable until we are anchored in the Divine”
              “We are hypnotized by our surroundings and cannot see anything beyond the horizon of our experience”
              Sri Yukteswar

              Surroundings are the material plane. The dream of names and form, objects, people and space can only be dismantled and our experience expanded through years of disciplined spiritual practice.

              Then we cherish our enemies, our antagonists. That is because they help us see ourselves through our reactions. And our reactions are evidence of samskaras; delusive mental impressions to be realized and transformed into right knowledge through direct perception.

              But you know this also George and I am just enjoying letting stuff pour out of mi cabasa:-)

              Hugs and love George!! My best to the wife.

              • Hi Brother Brian !!!!!
                “Indeed! wrong knowledge…… it’s the only source of ignorance. Sometimes it’s lodged in the neuro pathways with such subtlety, masquerading as a superior point of view.”

                I like this analysis. It is like a description of super-charged wrong view which is related to Scientology. I finally figured out why a video taped lecture along with the transcript is so dangerous. You are getting the data on many levels. I always wondered why Hubbard’s voice had the peculiar sharp tone to it. At one time, it was irritating. In reading all of great philosophers after Scientology, I got a better understanding of why he had to put forward the illusion that he had the truth. You can take a look at Plato, and you can say “I don’t agree with him” , but he is consistent. You look at Hubbard’s patchwork and you can see that he falls into the biggest mistakes possible in philiosophy. Almost all the great Philosophers warned against chopping off the divine or the unity or the all. Hubbard tries to fill in the gaps with the thetan. It always fails and even the neo-platonists tried it over and over and it always failed. It was predicted by Plato that a Hubbard type of organization would sink lower. Without emanation, there is no Karma.
                Great to hear from you as well, brother.
                MM,
                G

                • Indeed George, a philosophy without a doctrine of oneness, unity and an agreed upon benevolent Dharmic value will find it so easy to demonize and war against real or imagined enemies.

                  This is playing out like a demented symphony for the world to see.

                  Leaving physically, the church of Scientology, does not guarantee escape.

                  That’s the easy part. It’s the mind of a Scientologist that sticks like glue year after year. It’s the agreed upon wrong knowledge.

                  It’s Marcabs, OT 3, Ron is Buddha, Scientology is the only workable tech, it’s stories of Karen saying she’s out but waving the calling card of Class 12 and using OSA tactics still to destroy the church that taught her how to destroy,

                  It’s you have an accident or get sick it’s the fault of some demon.

                  It’s the third party “law”.

                  It’s implant stations, BTs, doll bodies, bodies in pawn, Jesus was a pedophile, there was no Jesus, R6, Fourth Invaders, Ron invalidating higher planes of existence.

                  It’s Ron dicking women on Apollo and preaching ethical 2d.

                  No wonder ex Scientologists are so fucked up. I know, I’ve spent a good portion of my spiritual practice dumping this wrong knowledge.

                  There are still people like Trey Lotz, a great guy by the way, still believing in R6 and space opera drivel: what a pity!

                  Ron gave lip service in Science of Survival about faith in a Supreme Being. Or I would surmise in Buddhism, faith in the Dharma or Buddha Nature.

                  Hate is not something considered bad in Scientology. And I always love pointing out that hate is below sympathy on the tone scale. What kind of human being would conclude this to be sane???????

                  When a teacher, held in high esteem, trumpets from on high the virtue of “destroying utterly”, that person is ignorant of Dharmic teachings. And can be called with some certainty an adharmic individual.

                  The danger of a teacher of this nature is playing out here at this time with the Indies, Exes and Fundamentalists.

                  So many young minds “study teched” into a mindset of hating and fighting SPs.

                  Humility, forgiveness, love, sacrifice, thinking of others first, over coming selfishness; these are the teachings of the Great Ones. Not violent revenge.

                  They teach these moral precepts because they put a person in a lifestyle that does not accuse more bad karma. Making it easier to meditate because the conscience is at peace.

                  But to a highly trained delusional Class 1,000 auditor trained by Zeus himself, karma is defined as a limitation to personal will. Karma, the law of cause and effect, is relegated to the belief of an inverted 8th dynamic and the product of implanted religious rubes.

                  I now see highly trained Scientologists with some pity. In Scientology there were ego perks to being OT and highly trained.

                  But in the real world of valid schools of wisdom, these highly trained Scientologists are a thing of pity. That is because they have spent their whole life imprinting their minds with an admixture of metaphysical Freudian Therapy and the delusions of a revengeful madman.

                  They think that just because they can take a mind to cognition and basic linear time resolutions that they have the whole enchilada. That is wrong knowledge!

                  In Scientology, being trained by L Ron Hubbard was like being a celebrity.

                  In the real world, being trained by L Ron Hubbard is easily associated with having your mind raped with delusional wrong knowledge. And paying hundreds of thousands for the “privilege.

                  I am not anti Scientology.

                  I am anti deception

                  I am anti hypocrisy

                  I am anti wrong knowledge

                  I am anti violent retribution

                  I am anti greed

                  I am anti using people for personal gain and power

                  And I am anti any joker that has the arrogance to third party the saints, sages, adepts and spiritual masters of the ages. Thus sabotaging people’s reach to other sources of spiritual refuge.

                  All of these traits above were the characteristics of L Ron Hubbard.

                  And his disciples, the ones newly of of the church, are not out of the church mentally.

                  I am sorry to say, you have years more work of reasoning your way out of the prison of belief. Not you of course my dear George.

                  I am addressing the Highly Trained Victims of Brainwashing. They may have decades of rethinking.

                  They may need a trained therapist to help fish them out of this.

                  Thank you so much George. Thank you for all of your work. We need more of you.

                  I wonder what percent of these visitors to this blog are meditators.

                  I’d love to know.

                  • Brian, that was a 3 point shot, nothing but net, from center court. Thanks. I will be rereading that one.

                  • Harpoona Frittata

                    An excellent perspective from someone who was once in, but is now completely out!

                    About the only time that you hear fundamentalist Scientologists speak of love is when they toss off that trite “ML” closing in their written communications to others. Beyond that it’s an almost unmentioned topic, along with compassion, forgiveness, tolerance and a whole host of other similar terms that bespeak a completely different mindset and fundamental orientation to others – a way of being in the world that only comes from being continuously mindful of exactly those concepts and practices that $cn has never made a central focus of its doctrinal beliefs and orthodoxy.

                    “The danger of a teacher of this nature is playing out here at this time with the Indies, Exes and Fundamentalists.”

                    The us vs them mentality; the hugging close of past grievances and all the many occasions of butt hurt; the resolute and unwavering focus on what divides us; the nostalgic groupthink seconding of memories of past wrong and the prediction of the inevitability of similar horrors to come; the ironic failure to stop and reflect on the overarching theme of this blog itself – all of these personality characteristics say, “My body is out, but my mind is still indelibly stamped with the Mark of Elron”.

                    There’s no quick and easy cure for that one because as the mind habitually operates, so the neuroplastic interconnectivity of the brain that enables it goes. The habitual and reflexive paths that thought and emotion take reflect the architecture of neural connectivity that experience has shaped in the brain. Very long-standing patterns of thought, such as those formed through decades of total immersion in Scn cult groupthink have shaped the plastic brain in deep and not easily altered ways. To escape the cult completely requires a long and dedicated effort to re-wire the brain that is no easy feat or mean accomplishment.

                    Continuous and constant mindfulness of exactly those things that $cn has so thoroughly discarded and removed from its vocabulary – things like tolerance, forgiveness, loving kindness and compassion – are really the only remedy that I know of. As the mind is consciously, effortfully and resolutely deprogrammed from within, the brain changes as well. In time and with effort, the reflexive and automatic habits of mind can be halted, reversed…anything you like. Or, on the other hand, whatever it is that you’re most aggrieved about and fixated on in the past can just become more reinforced and indelibly stamped in your consciousness – either way, it’s a choice that we’re all free to make now that we are not physically within the cult .

                    Finding a community of individuals who’ve learned this simple to understand, yet hard to keep in the foreground of your mind central lesson can be a huge help to those who are truly committed to freeing themselves from the deeper and more subtle residual effects of Elron’s “do what thou willst” philosophy. Having others around to remind you of what’s not there that should be can be a powerful aid in recovering that which $cn wrings out of you. Sangha – the buddhist concept of spiritual community – can be of huge help to those who feel the strong urge to regain what $cn is designed to suck out of you, and it that kind of support community exists, not just in certain specific locations and times, but right here and right now.

                    Reach out for it and it can be yours!

                    • Thanks Harpoona! Right to the point.
                      I can just hear the Scientologist mind rejecting your thoughts because of the wrong, arrogant and ignorant knowledge Ron had about the brain.
                      That is the insidious nature of a lot of Scientology.
                      It booby traps your ability to learn new information because when Ron has been granted infallibility, a trait we have all bestowed to him, it makes it t almost impossible to learn new ways of seeing.

                      Because Ron found the bridge, Ron found the way and all previous attempts at finding truth have failed.

                      Right here, right now, on this forum I announce with great conviction, that all of you highly trained Scientologists who still believe in running BTs, implants and bodies in pawn etc are causing harm.
                      If you are a class 12, you are a victim of dangerous delusions and have no right to be messing with the mind.
                      You are a community problem.

                      Any person out of the church of Scientology who says they are out but are pushing this “up the bridge delusion” for profit deserves to be exposed.

                      It is you who need help. The help is out there if you can push through, with your discriminating intelligence, the lies that you have dedicated your life to. The lies that have become your character.

                      Being a class 12 out here in the real world means you have handicapped your ability to see clearly.

                      Highly trained in Scientology is a damaged mind full of delusions, partial truths and mental problems.

                      You need help. There are therapists out there to help you.
                      But first you must know you need help.

                    • Mark C. Rathbun

                      Man, for an all-forgiving sage, you seem awfully wound up.

                    • HF – It seems like some people think ex-scios are like programmed zombies walking around. Since reexamining my scn experience over the last year I discovered maybe six or seven bad attitudes I’d carried forward from scn and now they’re gone.

                      Brain Science has come a long way in the last 50 years. I think Brain People would probably be aetheists since there obviously could be no such thing as a brainless God.

                    • Forgiveness, compassion and love, is not denial of reality. It’s not stupidity.
                      That is wrong knowledge. Warning people of the dangers of Scientology is in fact a loving thing to do.

                      If I complain to a supermarket that there apples have worms in it, I’d say that is a kind and compassionate thing to do.
                      Stating the truth as I see it may help people.

                      Being loving is not being dumb.

                      So what do you disagree with instead of commenting on me being a preacher of one virtue and being another?

                    • I got dizzy reading that!

                    • Here is my point

                      Just to be clear Mark, I’ve never claimed to be a sage. I quote them and study them. I am a student, not a sage.

                      And it is a misunderstanding of compassion to think that a compassionate person cannot be fierce in standing up for a principle. I would say that what you experienced was the force of my passion. The force of my conviction. Being a loving person is not being a passive weak person.

                      My reasonings regarding trained Scientologists are this.

                      1) if a person tries to handle smoking by running dramatizing volcanoes, that’s delusional and will lead to delusional outcomes.

                      2) if a person runs BTs and blames their emotions, pressures in the body, unwanted thoughts etc on BTs that will lead to delusion thinking. And it will be a barrier to truly directly perceiving the true nature of their problem.

                      Bodies in pawn, running doll bodies, running Marcabs, thinking you are a loyal officer, thinking Xenu is in an electronic mountain trap, equating after life experiences as being implanted and a seaming infinite story of Sci Fi delusions is what Class 8s and 12s are supposed to be flubless in handling in auditing.

                      When I was in the church, Class 8s were given godlike status. They were the super star celebrities of the church.

                      Because they were and are given the status of “in the know” and because I see these above delusional incidence as now in the “delusional know”, I feel very good about being an iconoclast and taking these Class 8 and Class 12 levels off their pedestals and labeling them as dangerous L Ron Hubbard imaginings.

                      But if you still see the validity in running BTs, The Weeper, The Coffee Grinder, The Clam, R6, Incident 1, Heliotrobus, The Fourth Invaders, Implants on every after life experience, then I am just an antagonist worthy of being shunned.

                      I do not mind one bit because I have done my best to express my understanding. I need no agreement. I just want to be clear.

                      But my point is that if these make believe imaginary moments on the time track are run, and then become reasons and the source of real world problems, then we have a person who is out of touch with reality and assigns imaginations to actualities.

                      And therein lies the danger in being highly trained. Highly trained people have highly trained L R H delusions to answer and resolve common peoples problems. And in that regard highly trained Scientologists actually nurtures a delusional mindset.

                      Once I smitten by the highly trained Scientologist. Now I warn people about them.

                      If I can warn only one secret onlooker on these blogs, I would say that is compassion. That is helping one soul avoid the lies and deceptions that make up the volumes of studies materials.

                      See me how you wish. I have no power over your perception of me. I only have the power to try and make my position clear.

                      Some will get it. And some will not. And that’s fine.

                      Thank you Mark, for all you do. I may have offended some people with my view. I will have to accept that as a price of authenticity.

                      I stand by my views.

                  • The truth as I see it as well.

                    • Hey Michael,

                      Can you please put that into your own words for the peanut gallery. Please give us your experience as it relates to what I wrote.

                      I would appreciate it. And others may as well.

                      Best,
                      Brian

                • Hi George! – Have you discovered any Blavatsky techniques or other cool occult stuff we can use?? (joke)

                  • Hi Richard!
                    Blavatsky took a deep hit by science after she wrote “The Secret Doctrine”
                    in 1888. She reported many stories of “moving tables” by will power, levitation, and magical illusion. She tried to expose the fraud in the occult, but in the end she was cornered by lack of proof of her own ideas. But Blavatsky was more of a “reporter”. She had the first idea for a “psychometer” used on the spirit. Thus she predicted the e-meter. Too bad she did not get it earlier as she would have done a better job than Hubbard with it.
                    I have found in my readings that Hubbard probably only did a cursory survey of the wisdom produced by the philosophers of “50,000 years”. Although he never directly copied from Blavatsky, a large part of the framework of Scientology can be traced to her. He never gave her credit and may not have even read her books. But somehow he got the information from Parsons, Crowley or others. Hubbard toned down the “occult” in Blavatsky since he was entering the age of science.
                    Hubbard sliced out of the occult only a small portion with rooted foundations in Middlle Ages Kabal. He gravitated in that direction since it was the only major source which allowed a sort of “thetan”. But he even had to break from Kabal to develop Scientology. Even Kabal would not allow him to formulate “fair game”.
                    The good news concerning Hubbard’s lack of attention to detail is that there probably is some useful information which is far better than Scientology.
                    But that is not a valid goal since the foundation of Scientology is weak.
                    Hubbard took an idea and then changed it to suit his style. This left the great idea alone for others to use.
                    If there is any value in all of this reading, it is that I could draw up some really neat occult figures which would be totally cool. I could probably write a cool video game. I could also probably produce some really great mystery videos for you-tube.
                    MM,
                    G

                    • Blavatsky would have done a better job with the e-meter than Hubbard – LOL! That’s got to be the most original jab at Hubbard ever!

                      An occult oriented smartphone video game would be a big seller. One of your occult figures could be the hero “Elron” – the public would never get the connection!

              • “Life is ever unreliable until we are anchored in the Divine”
                “We are hypnotized by our surroundings and cannot see anything beyond the horizon of our experience”
                Sri Yukteswar
                Hubbard needed to create the illusion that he had all of the truth even though he never really understood his philosophical sources. He needed this illusion so that he could project an image with confidence. This confidence was manifested in his voice, his pictures and in his writings. He created an additional illusion by his deep criticism of these philosophers. I entered in 1972 and the trap was set. The next step by Hubbard was to exercize the “science of illusions”. This is interpreted as a subtle illusion aimed at controlling the “will”. Hubbard created further illusions of OT power. Hubbard can hypnotize because he does not care one bit about the divine. Not anchored in the divine, the illusions are reality. Hubbard’s flaw was that he distanced himself from his followers placing them at a lower level as minor spirits. A few are trained to be like him but never to outshine him. Secretly, Hubbard’s illusion is to rise higher as a demiurg, a godlike state which he can never attain since he started by not understanding the divine. Thus, Hubbard thought he acted as Lucifer, but this is illusion. Actually, Hubbard acted in the role of a minor demon in a lower rank than he ever imagined.

                Huggs Brian! Lots of Love. I will pass the good news on to my lovely wife.
                George

        • Yes, and we should add – the degree of playing “Ain’t it awful” can be carried to the point of serious hypocrisy. Which is the point made in the blog post.

          With the anti-Scientology community (in the form of Karen De La Carriere, in this case) the same act of apparently confessed rape would be used against the CoS if the rapist is a member of it – but if he’s a member of the anti-Scientology community, then he is to be defended to the point of fair gaming anyone (in this case, Marty) who would criticize the person for, to quote Marty, “complaining about the alleged injustice.”

          • p.s. On the last sentence, I should have put the whole quote, which was “complaining about the alleged injustice of being arrested, booked and forced to defend against the charge.”

            • This will never resolve in this forum. Each site will simply wave the flag of the other guys faults. Welcome to the Church of Scientology.

              On second thought. These are not my issues or past acquaintances or friends. It’s silly for my getting involved with this.

              I confess to my foolishness.

              I wish you all well.

              • I hear you Brian.

              • Harpoona Frittata

                It’s never foolish to advocate peace, reconciliation and forgiveness. It may appear to fall on deaf ears in the moment, but planting that seed wherever and whenever you can is always a good idea because you never when it will germinate and grow into exactly what you intended!

                • Forgiveness generally requires some form of apology or acknowledgement of wrongdoing in the first place and it is a gift, not an entitlement.

                  • Harpoona Frittata

                    I wouldn’t argue with you there. Still, forgiveness can be as much about freeing yourself of past burdens as it has to do with others. And, viewed from that personal perspective, it doesn’t need to be predicated on what anyone else may or may not do at all.

                    • I would argue with you there. It is not the ‘burden’ of the innocent to carry the sins of their tormentors. Victims of such abuse often find happiness by refusing to support the destruction of the human soul and simply moving on to find more constructive company; To wit – leaving a vicious cult.

                    • @Sam.

                      “I would argue with you there. It is not the ‘burden’ of the innocent to carry the sins of their tormentors.”

                      Hallefuckinglujah.

                    • Harpoona Frittata

                      @ Sam You’ve misunderstood me there: I don’t believe that it is for the victims to carry the burden of their tormentors at all. I’m saying that one way that victims of horrible abuse and horrendous acts of violence have been able to put down a burden that was crushing them is to engage in a radical act of forgiveness.

                      It’s a very, very difficult construct to wrap your mind around unless you sit with it for a long while and fully understand how much holding onto anger and hate can destroy a person. Everyone is perfectly free to forgive or not to forgive as they so choose. It’s not for me to judge either way, except as it relates to myself.

                  • Damn I to look, but you are even more beautiful than I remembered.

                    • Hey Kitty Kat🙂 Nice to see you again.

                    • Damn Sam, I am not a sock. I had one of my fronth teeth kicked out by 3 guys. I am Cornelius Anthonius Martens. And I worry about girls who would see me having this thooth out.

                      I am pretty mondain like that

                      But:

                      Ask Marty Rathbun. If I promisse something I will stick with my promisse.

                      Sam I could be happy for the rest of my life with a princess like you.

                  • Samantha said; ” Forgiveness generally requires some form of apology or acknowledgement of wrongdoing in the first place and it is a gift, not an entitlement.”
                    Although granting forgiveness often does follow another being apologetic, etc, it does not have to. I think one can practice forgiveness unilaterally and personally benefit greatly. It very liberating and wise to do so in my opinion.

      • Brian, there’s a book titled *Culture of Complaint: The Fraying of America* by Robert Hughes, in which the author takes the view that this is an American phenomenon that came about during the Cold War era. Here are a couple quotes from reviews about the book at Amazon.com:
        ——————————————
        “From Publishers Weekly
        Euphemism, evasion and propaganda are woven into the fabric of American public discourse. . . everyone claims victim status and a ‘cult of the abused Inner Child’ flourishes.”

        “From Library Journal
        Hughes . . . attacks Americans for having become a culture of complainers, symbolized by their growing claims to be victims of this or that injustice and their demands for the expansion of rights without concern for duties and obligations.”
        ——————————————–

        There’s also a review at the Barnes and Noble site that comments on “America’s difficulty in seeing past the end of the Us-versus-Them mentality implanted by four decades of the Cold War.”

        So I don’t think we can blame it all on Ron, although Ron himself was no doubt influenced by the culture of his time.

        • If scn wasn’t around in 1975 I might have hooked up with the Moonies – I got lucky! There were a lot of “Age of Aquarius” things popping up and there were plenty of enticing cults around.

          About 20 years earlier I was practicing the “duck and cover under the desk” routine in school for atomic bomb protection – lottsa luck with that.

          • Hi, Richard. I wonder if ex-moonies are similar to ex-scientologists with respect to the variety of experiences they had when members of the group, as well as how they now look at the teachings – or if such things are anywhere near as publicized as they are regarding former scientologists. Maybe you are less ignorant than I am about it.🙂

            • Hi Miraldi – The Moonies thought (still think?) Sun Myung Moon was the second coming of Christ. Moonies had mass weddings arranged by Moon. At least those folks didn’t have to go bar hopping or go to singles dances to get hooked up.

              Maybe escapees from religious cults don’t have that much to talk about. Scn cross references many subjects so there’s more to talk about. A look at Marty’s “categories” above shows that. Of course some of those things were just what Marty put out for discussion, but it shows where a lot of scn thinking leads.

              As far as publicity I think it’s celebrities in scn that keep some people interested and then fair game attacks and disconnection get mentioned, about which everyone has an opinion.

      • Today Education is a commodity that is very scarse in the United States.

        And stop promoting Xenu plox

  5. “See how injustice and bad faith ever recoil upon those who are guilty of them.” Napoleon Bonaparte

    bad faith
    noun
    intent to deceive.

    (in existentialist philosophy) refusal to confront facts or choices.

    Thanks for setting the record straight and keeping it real. These people ere really tripping out here right now under Ortega and friends bad faith.

    Anyway, just wanted to say I will be doing a daily digest while I am on the road, of the U.B. and translating it. I meant to have it all done but this is my first web site building experience. Consider it a fixer upper.

    https://phoneyrawdata.wordpress.com/

    https://phoneyrawdata.wordpress.com/blog/

    • @Oracle

      Since It isn’t possible to finish the article I was working on just yet (more happy trails just revealed themselves that I have to sort out) I figured I might as well factor in checking Mark’s blog here and there – and there you are with some unique “morning coffee” material!

      Witty. Augustine as Chaucer? Oh man…that’s quite a positioning. Silence DoGood doth ride again…

      Did you ever see my article Scientology – The Plan That Doesn’t Exist?

    • Not sure if it was intentional or not but you didn’t link to the Bunker post you’re talking about.

      • It’s a daily thing. Whatever I have up is corespondent to his daily. I had to go over there last night to see what was going on. I had not looked at his comments section for a few years. The squalor was appalling. I had no idea. I wouldn’t have even imagined. The C of S has outpoints for sure. But that was off the charts for repelling social intercourse. Doesn’t anybody commenting there have any theta capabilities? And to think it is voluntary.

  6. You have my attention, Marty. Like a good book that I can’t put down, I keep coming back for more.

    • Oh yes. We’re very entertaining aren’t we? I hope you’re all enjoying the show. By the way people are getting HURT while you’re all munching on your popcorn, but don’t worry about it – there was nothing interesting on the TV tonight anyway.

      • I know for one I am Sam, ironic the topic of this blog post is rape huh ?

        • miscavigeisscaredofsam

          I assume you’re referring to ‘Colleen Rose’s’ accusations of rape against John McGhee? If so I don’t see how that concerns either myself or the subject of this post. If you’re still hung up on why ‘Colleen’ felt the need to tell over 20 people that a Scientology critic had raped her (in super secret confidence) I suggest you take it up with ‘her’ (or ‘it’) as I have not the slightest interest in the matter.

      • Fred is an ex church member Sam and was just taken to court, accused of stalking and got kicked out of his home by scientology. He had to move from LA to the other side of the country.

        • Yes, Frodis. Thank you for writing that.

          Fred G Haseny is one of my heroes. He writes as JennyAtLAX.

          He has a great blog where he wrote a very thoughtful review of Marty’s Review of “Ruthless”.

          Here’s part of what he said:

          “Just how often, I wonder, does anyone get to read (or write) a review of a book review? For the book to have been a non-fictional undertaking, Marty’s review adds insight and understanding into the fictional areas that its readers might yearn for.”

          “Stay calm!” I say to anyone who may find themselves reacting in an adverse way to Marty’s book review. Remember always who the enemy is: David Miscavige, along with scientology “technology” designed to hurt not heal; a ponzi scheme thinly disguised as a “religion”; the toxic practice of disconnection; etc. Marty is both a friend and a cohort; in times of need, we rely on each other’s strength to get us through life’s difficulties.”

          More here: https://jennyatlax.wordpress.com/

          Good to see you here, Fred.

          I’m glad to see that no one is going to shut you up!🙂

          Alanzo

        • miscavigeisscaredofsam

          I am well aware who Fred Hasney is. However I’ve never heard of a ‘Frodis73’ so if Fred has a communication for me personally kindly tell him to leave his socks at home in the drawer.

          • Well from the tone and content of your post it sounded like you didnt know who he was. I am not a sock for Fred or anybody else.

          • I can vouch that Frodis73 isn’t a sock. I am not aware of what she’s writing about though, so no comment on that–besides on who Fred is, if the rest of her comment is true then I’m very sorry to hear that. Frodis73 was at Kent State the same time as me—2 years behind me—and we had mutual friends and were probably in the same room together on more than one occasion.

            • “a sock account means a web account where you use it as a false identity. The name derives from sockpuppet (where you put your hand in a sock and draw a face on the sock’s toe area to use it puppet-style); even though you’re the one controlling the sock, the sock is meant to be a character, as in fake, as in not real, hence sock account”

              • Hi Fred!! I’m sorry to see you verify what Frodis said was true—not that she would’ve lied!! I’m very sorry to hear about your ‘alleged’ stalking. I can surmise it came from your photo reports? Those were always great and you took great care to stay on the public sidewalks. To have to move too?! You didn’t deserve any of that—and I know you know that!

                • Hi, Miss Tia,

                  Luckily, the Temporary Restraining Order for “stalking” Beatriz Castro Macias, a Sea Org Body Router at scientology’s Los Angeles Org (someone I had never met and couldn’t identify in a police lineup if my life depended on it) went bye-bye when her lawyer (Kendrick Moxon) and mine (Graham E. Berry, Esq.) settled out-of-court. The settlement did not involve money, and I’m free to continue my photojournalistic adventures, something I’m sure OSA found little pleasure in. It is my belief that OSA planted a saboteur in the transitional home I lived in at the time or, at the least, paid a housemate to make my life hell and get me kicked out. During one of those attempts, I nearly got the crap beat out of me and needed to call the police in order to renter the premises. So, with OSA pummeling me from outside (with their bogus TRO) and inside (with their paid plant), I left. Soon, proof came my way that OSA would not stop in their pursuit to ruin me despite the “settlement,” thus my Escape from Los Angeles.

                  Thank you again, Marty, for this forum.

                  Fred G. Haseney and JennyAtLAX

                  • miscavigeisscaredofsam

                    LOL! You sound like fun to play with!

                    • Meaning the cult must really have a bee in their bonnet about you. Not what you’ve been through which is the usual evil cult crap – sorry you had to go through that.

                    • Re: LOL! You sound like fun to play with!

                      Hi, miscavigeisscaredofsam,

                      If you left that comment for me (and I don’t have a lot of experience following or answering comments in blogs, especially when they hit over 300), then thank you for that. Maybe that’s what OSA thought we were doing: “playing” (but somehow I don’t think so).

                      Fred G. Haseney & JennyAtLAX

        • Thanks for that, Frodis73. It’s true, too.

    • Karen de la Carriere sees herself as the victim of hatred and smear campaigns, and that’s her excuse for not admitting to any wrong doings.

  7. Why did Karen not publish what Ron Miscavige had done
    herself (on her blog – or maybe she did not have one)? Or
    she considered Marty’s blog was reaching more people?
    Had Ron M. told her in session obout the rape and thereafter
    commented on it outside session – so now it would sort
    of be fair game – which it really should not be in my opinion?

    • Just guessing here – but the year Karen offered Mark $$ to expose Ron M Sr. was 2011 (Mark said “fast forward 5 years”) which was BEFORE Karen had gone public. She was commenting on boards under an internet moniker. AND this was before her son died which was summer 2012.

      Again, I’m assuming Karen was protecting her very lucrative Thomas Kinkade eBay business AND attempting to maintain some sort of relationship with her son, who was mostly estranged and off on his own – married. He had left the SO some years earlier.

      Again the above is my take on why Karen didn’t expose Ron Miscavige Sr herself. Giving her the most benefit of a doubt that I can … OH and it was pre-Jeffrey Augustine —

      Karen has become a hater – vitriolic and sad. So she lashes out at whomever comes in her sights. I understand that her private/secret Facebook group is more hate filled than ESMB – if that is possible.

      What Mark is doing by exposing and pointing out the hypocrisies allows some light to be shone – a crack in the darkness.

      Brian mentioned we should all pray and or wish for this hate to be changed to love – to soften. Even for David M himself.

      I agree — wishing harm and revenge on others is a fools game. It only “feels” good for a moment, and then you need to hate more and more to have some sort of alive feeling. Eventually that hate and revenge becomes so dark and solid one becomes frozen.

      Feeling compassion and love is what is lasting. Hard to achieve when you’ve been personally harmed but in the end, the ONLY workable thing.

      Windhorse

      • Thanks Windhorse.

        And so true about compassion and love. Marty had
        numerous times written about the middle road and
        that is usually steering into the most compassionate
        avenue and seems to be the road less travelled here.

      • “I understand that her [Karen de la Carriere] private/secret Facebook group is more hate filled than ESMB – if that is possible.”

        Hi, Windhorse,

        It’s been my experience that Karen de la Carriere’s private/secret Facebook group is not a hate-filled group.

        Respectfully Submitted,
        Fred G. Haseney and JennyAtLAX

        • I’ve never been a member but according to numerous witnesses, Karen made wide accusations that our group ‘The Ministry of Flying Ducks’ was factually a hate group and made various other claims that were not substantiated by any factual evidence. We were simply a group that allowed free speech with minimum censorship – which was on the whole necessary because known trouble-makers were just blocked or kicked out

    • Lars, Karen de la Carriere did publish it in her favorite gossip forum where she is royalty, on February 21, 2014. She obviously got to Ron Miscavige Sr. and when he became part of her collection she had the ESMB mods delete her posting. But thanks to Google cache it was found again. I will post the original, but here is the text of Karen’s posting about Ron Miscavige Sr.:

      “I have another story of Ron Miscavige senior. I had totally absolutely forgotten it, but Ron M. himself jogged my memory. It was Int Base in the late 80s. I was being held against will, the world was BLACK, I was in misery to say the least. I ran into Ron M. outside Del Sol. He saw the look on my face. I had lost 25lbs in 3 months and had a haunted look.
      “Karen,” he said “All is not lost, cheer up.” He gave me some comforting words. (We knew each other from St. Hill) “Remember how you helped me at the Flag Land Base in 1976 ?” “No, I don’t recall” I said sullenly. My mood was in the depths of depression. “I told you how I was all fucked up, my life was done, I had royally fucked up” ~~ he described how he had lost it and raped a girl in Philadelphia. And you said “come on Ron, come on, all is not lost, cheer up ! Are you trying to tell me your life is over over one outrageous incident ?” He was trying to say my life was not over because of one outrageous incarceration at INT base.The tables had turned. In 1976 I was trying to cheer him up and make him see long range. In 1988 he was trying to cheer me up and make me see long range. There was a lot more said back and forth but that’s the essence of it. Miscavige later had the Philadelphia records tampered with and expunged so the rape record was deleted.
      Not an easy feat but done with Miscavige megabucks. He did not want to be a “world leader” and son of a father who had raped a woman. Ron M. was ordered to join the Sea Org at Int base. Ron M. played in the Gold musician band for decades til he fled INT Base some 2 years ago. Ron M said he planned his blow with Becky his wife with military precision for 6 months prior to blow (Like a Delta force or Navy Seal) Not that easy to flee that hell called “Int base”. ”

      This is the URL of the original thread where she posted the story.
      http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthread.php?31083-Karen-de-la-Carriere-YouTube-Channel/page73

      • Here is the link to Karen de la Carriere’s original posting on ESMB about Ron Miscavige Sr. telling her that he raped a girl in Philly.

        http://docdro.id/AhcEmZV

        • It was also cross-posted at the Why We Protest forums by “KittyKatSpanker” on February 20th 2014, which is actually the same day it was posted by Karen at ESMB (ESMB’s board time has to be factored in, it’s like 8 hours ahead of PST or something).

          One wonders why Karen waited 3 years to start talking about this, after approaching Mark about it. Where does this relate time-wise in the “let him die” story line and all that mess – anyone have that easily to hand? Yea, I’m feeling a bit lazy today. (lol)

          Virginia

      • Well, there is only one thing needed here to blow the entire matter out of the water: The conversation between Ron and Karen took place in 1976 which is 9 FREAKING YEARS before the rape allegations. Ron has admitted to having affairs while married to Loretta prior to getting into Scn but once he got in that stopped. This entire story about Karen trying to expose Ron as a rapist is compete hogwash. The dates in Karen’s post alone discredit it utterly.

        • Dan, is it possible that there were two rapes?

        • Dan, you don’t get it. Arguing over Karen’s typo (1976 vs 1985) is not going to change the following facts:

          1) Ron Miscavige senior admitted to Karen that he raped that woman and, 2) when it was convenient to Karen she smeared Miscavige senior but when he defected Karen made sure to get her rape story removed from ESMB.

          What Karen posted in February 2014 is very clear: Ron Miscavige senior confessed to her that he raped that innocent woman, regardless of the outcome of the criminal case.

          You should have checked with Karen before publishing the book about the above story. Or do you think Karen invented the entire incident? I don’t think so because she told it to Marty and posted it as well.

          I think you might have to confront the fact that you co-authored a book with a rapist.

          • “Arguing over Karen’s typo (1976 vs 1985)…”

            But she typed “1976” twice in the comment of hers that you posted. Here’s an excerpt that includes both times:
            ——————————
            “Karen,” he said “All is not lost, cheer up.” He gave me some comforting words. (We knew each other from St. Hill) “Remember how you helped me at the Flag Land Base in 1976 ?” “No, I don’t recall” I said sullenly. My mood was in the depths of depression. “I told you how I was all fucked up, my life was done, I had royally fucked up” ~~ he described how he had lost it and raped a girl in Philadelphia. And you said “come on Ron, come on, all is not lost, cheer up ! Are you trying to tell me your life is over over one outrageous incident ?” He was trying to say my life was not over because of one outrageous incarceration at INT base.The tables had turned. In 1976 I was trying to cheer him up and make him see long range. In 1988 he was trying to cheer me up and make me see long range. There was a lot more said back and forth but that’s the essence of it. https://markrathbun.wordpress.com/2016/09/13/ruthless-rape-and-hypocrisy/#comment-343221
            ——————————–

  8. “Why did Karen not publish what Ron Miscavige had done
    herself (on her blog – or maybe she did not have one)? ”

    Good question. I suppose the mildest answer might be – to preserve her online angel-of-mercy image?

    • By the way, in case anyone wonders, that’s not *my* characterization of her online persona. I think it was at ESMB that I saw that. I do not know if Karen has ever presented herself that way.

      My point was that it’s possible that there was an image concern in play regarding not posting her rape allegation herself directly. She could have put it as a comment to Mark’s blog, for example.

      This is all predicated on the idea that Mark is giving us an accurate portrayal of the events between he and Karen in today’s post, of course.

  9. Since I’ve been reading your blog I’ve had a realization. The cabal of critics that surround Tony Ortega, Karen de la Carriere, Jeffrey Augistine, and the rest of their kind have become what they claim to hate. This is not news to you but it is interesting to a casual observer. After all what has really been accomplished in their so called “fight against Scientology?” They may claim that there have been some basic policy changes. Or that there are not many Americans joining the Church of course they all complain about people in other countries joining but never really attempt any real outreach to those countries. But for the most part the Church of Scientology continues on unimpeded. You have pointed out in your critique of Louis Theroux that he was not interested in understanding Scientology. Only poking at it to get a reaction. I believe that Tony Ortega and Karen de la Carriere are cut from the same cloth. Karen actively plays both sides. She gets attention and adoration from her fans for her videos and posts then turns around and rakes in cash from auditing. This cabal does not actually care about bringing down Scientology. Many of them wouldn’t know what to do with themselves if they actually did bring it down. They’d all bask in their glory for a day and then wake up the next morning wondering where their likes, clicks and donations are going to come from. Given a silver bullet to take out the Church Tony Ortega would not use it for fear that he would go back to being a nobody writer trying to scratch out a living. Of course all of this goes back to a point you’ve been making which is that this all transcends Scientology and speaks to human nature. Human nature is to look out for #1 and to get ahead by any means. It takes a good person to actually stand for truth regardless of how it benefits or hurts you. For Tony Ortega and the critics that follow him around, they have become the resource hungry, adoration hungry horde that they claim to oppose.

    • Very astute analysis. At the end of the day it is all about money.

    • Harpoona Frittata

      “The cabal of critics that surround Tony Ortega, Karen de la Carriere, Jeffrey Augistine, and the rest of their kind have become what they claim to hate. This is not news to you but it is interesting to a casual observer. After all what has really been accomplished in their so called “fight against Scientology?”

      That’s a pretty hyperbolic statement, given the fact that what you’re claiming that they’ve become is a multi-billion dollar organization, with several thousand dedicated and obedient employees, all under the direct command of one individual who’s ordered and directed some of the most heinous human rights abuses against its own members and ex-members that have ever been perpetrated by any contemporary religion. I think that what you must mean there is that these individuals are the same as the cherch in some much more limited ways, don’t you? Otherwise, that’s quite obviously an extreme example of false equivalence.

      In that opening paragraph you’ve placed “fight against Scientology?” in quotes, which directly implies that this was a direct quote from one of the three individuals that you’ve mentioned, describing it as “their co called” fight. Wass it an exact quote from a statement made by one or more of them or was that an inadvertent misuse of punctuation there?

      I ask because, while its very true that each of these individuals has repeatedly spoken out publicly against the massive and ongoing human rights abuses and violations that the cherch under lil davey the savage’s malign leadership has committed, I’m not familiar with any statement that they’ve made concerning some kind of overall, generalized “fight against Scientology” Indeed, Jeffrey Augustine, in a podcast interview with Dan Koon that was recently highlighted on the U.B., definitively stated that he was NOT anti-scientology at all, but only against the human rights violations and abuses that it continues to engage in. He went on to assert that anyone who believes in the value of auditing should be free to ebgage in that practice.

      So, at least as your charge pertains to Mr. Augustine, it seems quite apparent that, either your scholarship here is sadly lacking, or you have purposefully created a strawman argument with ad hominem undertones. If there’s another alternative way of perceiving it, then I’m very open to considering it.

      Your very much entitled to your own internal perceptions, Perceive, but when it comes to civil discourse between us in forum settings like this one, I think that it’s acceptable to hold each other to some basic standards of accurate source citing and direct quote attribution, don’t you?

      • You are obviously not from America. It is a well known fact that Americans & people from The UK/EU use quotes differently. So please stop being a grammar Nazi. In American terms, the usage of quotation marks was done in a correct manner. Thank you very much. Stop acting like a pompous know it all. Respect other cultures & people from other countries. Because not everyone does things as you do in your country. Peace.

  10. Is this REALLY Marty Rathburn writing this blog?

    Everything sounds completely different as IF, someone else has taken over the moderatorship. But why would Marty do that and who would take over?

  11. Mark wrote:

    “Kept-man second-class Tony Ortega does accept money for publishing salacious content. That is how he makes his living. Only now Karen doesn’t want to protect the public from a rapist, she wants the guy pointing out the rapist’s hypocrisy to be discredited. As per usual, on-demand Tony dutifully complies.”

    LOL.

    Looks like Indy OSA is still alive and well. But the Target list has been adjusted slightly to include you now, Marty.

    Karen told me on the phone a few years ago that she was totally loyal to you and Mike Rinder, and that she would be loyal to you two for life. She also quoted repeatedly to me that “PR is overt. But intelligence begins and ends covertly!”

    She yelled that last point to me, over and over on the phone.

    Targets change, I guess. Friends come and go. Loyalties shift.

    But Indy OSA rolls on!

    Alanzo

  12. If you look at Tony Ortega’s post of today (about Augustine and Koon’s podcast) you’ll notice that he doesn’t name Mark Rathbun. He writes some vaguely worded description of: “…the two get right into some accusations…”

    Karen De La Carriere responds and starts right out with this: “There is no low that Miscavige and his cult will not sink to.

    Clearly, that could be taken by some as a positioning of Mark Rathbun, but it was also meant to position the following as being a tactic of “Miscavige and his cult.” – –

    “When Bitty fled INT Base, a “not to leave Int Base” issue was put out on her, saying that she was Gestapo in her last lifetime, and that INT Base did not need to have Nazis in the Sea Org.”

    Len Zinberg comes along and says:

    “Amazing post, Karen. This is the very first time I’ve ever heard of dead agenting someone as a “last lifetime” suppressive.”

    Now here’s the interesting thing to me. This exact same tactic is done OUTSIDE the church of scientology, by those professing to be practicing scientology. I posted about this here at Mark’s blog actually.

    To wit: “…my “Suppressive RTC member from Last Time Around” declare from Freezoner Rey Robles”

    Captain Bill’s Ron’s Org advanced scientology materials took this whole “last lifetime” thing much much further. They posit (taken from actual Ron Hubbard sources) the existence of an entire re-do of EVERYTHING, where in the quote – last time around – the person, you in your current identity, played a different role.

    Hence the “declare” of me as a suppressive RTC member from last time around.

    For those further interested in the source of this idea, back in the 2000’s, Mike put together a number of references of Captain Bill Robertson’s “expanded bridge”. Bearing in mind that most of these references are almost impossible to understand by one not familiar with all of Captain Bill’s lingo – here’s one from his “games master” OT level that has at least one somewhat self-explanatory point of what “LTA” or last time around means. Look at point 5.

    Also back then, I had assembled for Mike some various other sources (including Ron Hubbard) in a commentary on this idea.

    Coming back to the discussion with Karen today at Ortega’s blog, Harpoona Frittata had responded to Karen’s comment and said

    “…it’s really the inevitable and predictable EP of having a violent and megalomaniac sociopath in charge of an organization which is fully invested in a central doctrinal belief in past lives and how they impact us in our current incarnation.”

    If Karen herself practices FAIR GAME towards those not currying her favor, including myself (as was revealed to me and posted about here at here at Mark’s blog) then what are we to make of the fact that ALL THREE factions (official, unofficial and anti scientologists) have ALL acted in the same manner towards individuals not towing the party line and fitting into one of their nice little controlled opposition boxes?

    Karen’s statement today of: “There is no low that Miscavige and his cult will not sink to.” perhaps takes on a more far-reaching perspective than what she intended it to.

    Virginia

  13. Maybe a clarification of terms here might be in order – Children/kids. Are these terms being defined purely by AGE (under age minors) or by simple genetics? There *is* a rather large difference in perspective between the two.

  14. Sir Walter Scott had it right: “Oh, what a tangled web we weave, When first we practice to deceive! Yikes! (that’s me)

  15. The toxic mixture of 1. Those who are INCREDIBLY bitter and obsessed by their experience with Scientology and 2. Those who make MONEY off of the folks in No. 1 while also promoting their cause. The symbiosis if the hard core ASC.

  16. Remember all those heartfelt responses of love sent to the posters on this blog in response to the messages of condolence for Karen over the loss of her son a few years back? Karen didn’t write a single one of them. Jeff spent the day sweating over his computer pretending to be Karen while she was busy mugging for the TV cameras next door, pausing only to scream at Jeff because he had made typos that were ‘bad for her PR’ (then she tried to get me to take over the job – I ran away screaming). These were the actions of a ‘grieving mother’ followed by years of being badgered to upvote her crap all over the internet so she could keep her stats up. My refusal to continue to support her vile behaviour in later years became the sole reason for her ‘SAM DOMINGO IS OSA OSA OSA!!!!!!’ comments in bright red capitals all over ESMB.. me? OSA? REALLY Karen????
    As for Ortega’s recent ‘let’s give Victoria Britton a Bunker finish to her fundraising campaign for her sons memorial stone’ it kind of flies in the face of all the snide comments he has made to both her and myself these past few years including asking me why I think she ‘lost her case’ against the cult in the first place. Well. I don’t know Tony. I thought it was because she was dealing with a disgusting cult bent on destroying her so she would never find out the truth about what happened to her son but I guess you have some super sekrit information about the case or about Victoria’s mental condition that you are unable to share at this time?….
    Karen and Ortega you are both filth and though it is not my place to see that justice is served I admit to being delighted that someone else has taken it upon themselves to get the job done finally. If that makes me ‘evil’ or ‘unholy’ or ‘uncharitable’ or ‘insane’ then I will happily stand in line with every other person they have smeared in order to fill whatever personal agendas they may have.
    ‘Namaste’. And may the ‘Gods’ give each and every single hyena laughing gleefully over their ‘clever’ put-downs and shoops over at Hitler’s bunker exactly what you deserve.
    Going to go look at flowers and butterflies now in the hopes I can think of something nice to say again. Until then… ‘woooooosaaaaaaaa’ I’m off to find a fire hose before I get REALLY pissed off.

    • Sam wrote:

      “Remember all those heartfelt responses of love sent to the posters on this blog in response to the messages of condolence for Karen over the loss of her son a few years back? Karen didn’t write a single one of them. Jeff spent the day sweating over his computer pretending to be Karen while she was busy mugging for the TV cameras next door, pausing only to scream at Jeff because he had made typos that were ‘bad for her PR’ (then she tried to get me to take over the job – I ran away screaming). These were the actions of a ‘grieving mother’ followed by years of being badgered to upvote her crap all over the internet so she could keep her stats up. My refusal to continue to support her vile behaviour in later years became the sole reason for her ‘SAM DOMINGO IS OSA OSA OSA!!!!!!’ comments in bright red capitals all over ESMB.. me? OSA? REALLY Karen????”

      This is a rare behind the scenes look at the reality of the little spinning twister that is Karen De La Carriere.

      I’ve known this for a while about Karen because back in the day when Marty Mike and Karen were all still Independent Scientologists together – fresh out of the Church and still dramatizing the worst of L Ron Hubbard’s GO/OSA orders (sorry Marty), I was loudly raising questions about all that.

      That put me onto Indy OSA’s Target List.

      The truth is nothing to Karen De La Carriere. As with what Marty has shown with Ron Miscavige Sr, information is what can be USED to build someone up, or to bring about their demise. In this way, while Marty and Mike have stopped dramatizing LRH’s GO/OSA orders, Karen De La Carriere is, obviously, still blazing fully.

      Karen De La Carriere’s infiltration of the Ex-Scientology scene should be exposed so that everyone has the information they need to evaluate what’s really going on. And those who have come under her grip might breath a little easier.

      Thank you for your post, Sam.

      Next question: How much of the annual costs of running ESMB does Karen De La Carriere pay for?

      Alanzo

      • Michelle Sterling or Ann Lowe can answer the question as to how much Karen pays annually. But the question you should be asking is: how much control does Karen have over ESMB?

        • Answers to both would be good.

          If Rupert Murdoch secretly bought a newspaper, the people who read that paper have every right to know that Rupert Murdoch owns the paper now. It would be part of critically examining the news they read every morning.

          Karen is a highly partisan player. She is no hands-off investor in media stories we read on the Post-Scientology Internet. We have a right to know who she is paying, and what she is getting in exchange if it ends up on Tony’s Blog or ESMB.

          Maybe she can create a little logo that says “This post paid for by Indy OSA”.

          Alanzo

        • Michelle posted on ‘Ducks’ a couple of months ago that she was walking back into this situation after a year of absence and that the fuckfest was as baffling to her as anyone else. If this is true it is unlikely she is financially complicit in Karen’s activities. Support in the form of attacking anyone who dare speaketh a word against the Queen of ESMB? Maybe.
          ESMB is a scary place so I don’t go in there very much but Michelle Sterling always came across to me as a straight shooter regardless of the ‘rightness’ or ‘wrongness’ of whatever it is she’s doing these days.
          Ann Lowe on the other hand seems a wee bit too rabid for someone whose strings aren’t being pulled. (Just my opinion – not based on any ‘doxable’ facts).

          • Yea, but why on earth does she enter into the fray today by targeting *me*, I wonder.

            Starting with an insult, to boot!

            Although, I must admit that it’s pretty mild compared to what she usually says about me over the years (up to and including just a week or so ago, calling me one of the “looniest of the loons” here).

            Isn’t it Alonzo she should be *targeting* with this response of hers?

            STRAIGHT-shooting doesn’t seem like an accurate description of Michelle, at the moment, to me.

            Virginia

        • Actually, Michelle is a bit busy right now accusing Alonzo of being a biggest “payer”.

          • miscavigeisscaredofsam

            ‘facepalm’

          • Actually Virginia, if you read my post without your pre existing filters, you’ll understand I was simply pointing out that Alanzo (over the years) contributed to the ESMB server fees more than Karen. I also wanted to point out that Alanzo didn’t “buy” me or “buy” ESMB. So for less money, it would be unlikely that Karen had done so. I don’t play that game. I don’t need to. I have a good job, nice house etc. I’m not wealthy but I certainly can’t be bought for a few thousand dollars. (A few million and maybe my conscience would disappear – I dunno, it’s never been tested).

            • ESMB moderator disappeared the thread in question yesterday (haven’t checked to see if it’s back again) but just in case here’s a screenshot of the page with what Michelle as “Emma” said about Alonzo.

            • My statement of “accusing Alonzo of being a biggest “payer”.” is quite accurate. That is what you did.

              I’ll now add that one reason that I think you did that was because you were trying to DA him and what others are saying about your forum ESMB – in so doing.

              Others…like Alonzo. Like I said to Sam, I have to wonder why didn’t you respond to him here, or AJ, or one of the others engaged in talking about control of the ESMB forum, but no, you came after me.

              Just recently, you have also called me, Arnie, and a couple of other people here the “looniest of the loons”, so I’m sure you’ll understand why I won’t be taking your opening insult/correction of my having pre-existing filters, to heart.

              Virginia

              • Two things.
                1. It’s Alanzo – not Alonzo. Sheesh that annoys me so badly, I can only imagine how it must irk Alanzo.
                2. Yes I called you a loon. You are a loon. A loon with filters. As the Dothraki would say “it is known”.
                3. (ok it’s 3 things) I gave up long ago trying to even converse with Alanzo, I’ve never heard of AJ and despite everything I still have a soft spot for Sam. So yes poor Virginia, t was you I choose to unleash my spew of utter hatred!! (hehe)

                • Michelle Sterling wrote to Virginia MccLaughry:

                  “Yes I called you a loon. You are a loon. A loon with filters.”

                  Michelle Sterling is one of the nastiest and most abusive people I have ever met on the Internet. You can see that she comes here and immediately tries to continue to discredit a long time critic of Scientology by calling her a “loon”.

                  This is Emma’s specialty. For decades, she has attacked and has tried her best to undermine other critics of Scientology – usually behind their backs on some forum where they can not respond to her.

                  I’m sure this is what drew Karen De La Carriere to want to work with her. And I’m sure Emma has complied with Karen’s orders to attack and discredit other critics over the years.

                  But now, here she is! Insulting people to their faces! And Mark Rathbun, a person she has slimed repeatedly for years, has allowed her to post here.

                  Awesome. To be on a message board with Emma where decades of Ex-Scientologists who have been stabbed in the back by her can now address her directly.

                  Nice to see you here, Emma.

                  Can we be expecting more of your flying monkeys from ESMB to be showing up soon?

                  Alanzo

                • Michelle,

                  You know, because of your lying and continued nastiness towards me for more than 10 years now, I kind of viewed this place as having been *slimed* by your sudden appearance trying out your wares here.

                  You have consistently been a nasty, vile person towards me. You have taken great pleasure in allowing my son to parade around lying about his mother in true OSA style, this makes you lower than whale shit in far more eyes than just mine.

                  You can never “handle” your horrendous acts of atrocities towards me and others by any amount of flippant and ever-so-light dialogue.

                  If there is any soul left in you at all, you will get down on your knees and beg forgiveness from God, the universe, the great soup of molecules or whatever you are currently worshiping, for your obvious utter self-hatred that you try so hard to infect others with.

                  When a person who acts like you enters into a social arena that I’m part of, I normally do not want to hang around and subject others to your poisonous stench. But, a kind soul asked me to stay, so I am.

                  However, this is the last time I am going to say anything to you until you, at the very least, publicly apologize for what you did/allowed with my son, and for what your and your “flying monkeys” – as AlAnzo put it – have also tried to encourage with my other children and anyone who might become friendly to me.

                  Virginia

                  • Virginia, I hate to break it to you, but I don’t even know who your son is. Also I don’t recall saying much about you at all over the years because when i was first out I read some of your & Mike’s writings about channeling LRH and how he was auditing you remotely, and how his spirit sometimes goes shopping with you & I came to a conclusion. If you can point out some of my viciousness I’ll take a look, but I think you might have me confused with someone else.

                    • Alright Michelle, I’ll give you a fair chance here.

                      The Help thread that got moved out of view (and the second version that isn’t) – have a look at those to refresh your memory.

                      You are against the idea of telepathy, I take it? Because that’s really what those posts back about 14 years ago or so were about – not that any were actually *with* Hubbard.

                      Apparently it wouldn’t have mattered to you if I said they were with anyone else’s name either, including “God”.

                      That was part of the point, but I guess that was too obscure, so let me be more direct.

                      Telepathy exists. Not with everyone, not all the time, but it exists. There are several friends that I have that are extraordinarily good at it – and no, they’re not dead. I enjoy working with them at that level.

                      Does this mean that you can then treat me like I’m crazy, just because you don’t have any friends like that?

                      It shouldn’t, and you should knock it off.

                      Virginia

                  • Ok, I’ve done some digging & now I know (kinda) what you are talking about. This thread: http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthread.php?19945-HELP I’m guessing?

                    Look closely…Did I even reply on that thread?

                    • Michelle,

                      That’s it, this is all you have to say about this – trying to hair-split over WHICH thread you responded on (and you did)?

                      Are you really trying to have me believe that you have no responsibility whatsoever for what happened on your forum, ESMB, with my son?

                      Well, then, I guess that about does it for me. I’m done talking to you if this is how it’s going to go.

                      Virginia

            • Hello Michelle. Yup. Straight shooting😀

    • Hi Sam.

      “though it is not my place to see that justice is served…”

      Was your statement just referring to what happened with Victoria Britton?

      I ask because if it was more general and you were including your own personal experience with Karen under that, I would want to say… You have a right to speak up about it if you want to, most especially if it happened *to* you.

    • “Jeff spent the day sweating over his computer pretending to be Karen …”

      I laughed until my ribs hurt. Sam, you easily could be writing screenplays. You really laid that out with a bang. Fkn hysterical! On the floor!

    • Gerhard Waterkamp

      First of all I can confirm everything others said about Karen, second she taught me the most important lesson in my journey out of Scientology that you have to completely remove Scientology thinking from your existence. I want to share the essence of what I saw.
      From January to August 2012 Karen and I saw each other basically on a daily basis. I had contacted her as she was local and I had doubts about the CO$ and she was an outspoken critique. In short, she helped me to get through some of my own decisions making in my early stages. Early April Thomas Kinkade died surprisingly and Karen’s business spiked basically selling overnight a years’ worth of business. Since she got late in fulfilling the orders it could impact her standing with e-bay so she got desperate and begged me to help her, which I did to my best of my ability. On July 2nd 2012 her son died and I got also involved organizing Karen’s memorial on a boat and lived with her through that time even going with her to the funeral home in Eagle Rock where her son’s body was kept, but she was not allowed to see him.
      I will leave it at this and will spare the readers the salacious story’s and details about her and other critiques and Indy’s I could tell. They may be entertaining for some but really do not matter for the lessons learned. Marty knows anyhow most of them, as I contacted and told him about it end of 2012.
      Karen is about as pure OSA mindset as it gets per her thinking the only thing that matters “is influencing the outcome”. Pure utilitarian thinking and a complete lack of any moral compass otherwise. Karen was building an empire of power and influence with hidden actions and an overt PR that acted as a cover of carefully hidden lies and deceptions.
      When I was discovered in late 2012 that she had betrayed us and her hidden activities and deception became known to us and others, we became overnight a threat and persona non grata. She immediately turned on a lying smear campaign against me to hide her own crimes. We had a party for Mike Rinder at our house and she called Indies to boycott that party. Mike Rinder knows all about it. She went ahead to smear me personally with made up lies and falsehoods. It was a real OSA fireworks and live demonstration how well she was trained. She even got Steve Hall (who was at that time a bumbling ignoramus and puppet at her strings) to intervene with my auditor at the time, and it exposed several other Indies foremost Sinar Parman as mindless puppets of Karen’s little empire.
      Karen has no consciousness when it comes to getting her agenda done. The death of her son did not feel for somebody as close as I was to her during this time as a tragic loss for her, but more as great opportunity to gather pity and media attention for her own self-aggrandizement. As Jeffrey put it: “We are not reading world news, we are world news.” I am aware this is a very harsh statement about a mother losing her child, but this is the ugly truth. Sam got this in her comment 100% correct.

      This is what a person becomes when they are exposed to Scientology (and may be even prepositioned, as not all people turn out that sad.) It taught me early that getting out of Scientology is a process and has to include throwing out any and all thinking instilled by that subject.

      In my observation many do not understand it, thus we have the ASC. It is the same poison, just with a reverted vector. Tony Ortega is interesting as he was never “in” and yet has the same arrogance and attitude fitting Karen’s operating basis. Since Scientology had natural clears, maybe there is a natural cult mindset as well.

      While there is a lot to say about the nastiness and hate of the ASC, one cannot forget the Original full of that poison. The CO$ goes on to fabricate the nastiness and hate at industrial strength. The CO$ racketeers, rapes and plunders and take the nastiness level to new heights every day in their pursuit of greed and power. They still have the money and the sleazy lawyers and compared to them the ASC is just an annoyance along the way.
      Mentioning “disconnection” in the CO$ in the same breath as the writings of Martha Stout is way off the mark.
      I guess Marty, at least there are no more open questions as to why I pestered you 2012 about you cozying up to Caberta at that time.

      • Wow, you are really on a roll!

        I do object to you calling Sinar Parman a “mindless puppet” . You are the first person I have ever heard speak his name in a derogatory manner. I do not know anyone who does not have the utmost respect for him. Have no idea how you determined he deserves to be harmed attacked and / or suppressed on this thread.

        You also cast him here in a role he is not in, as he has not spoken to Karen in over a year. I do not think Steve Hall has not been in touch with Karen for years, to the best of my knowledge.

        Please do not present this as a cluster which it is not.

        You are dismayed about an enemy. But good friends are “mindless puppets”. What are you looking for, a frenemy ?

        I visited Tony Ortega’s comments section yesterday and was truly amazed to discover how much I was hated, fairgamed and ridiculed. By people I have never known or crossed paths with in my life. By people I have never harmed in any way.

        The intolerance towards me is because I am a good friend. As if, because of pressure to humiliate and degrade me for that, I would shape shift into what they have become.

        As it is taboo over there to manifest being a good friend, I can more or less understand why they are parked there . Truly, even the Internet has not been a friend to these people. When you sit around and hate and attack people because they know how to be a good friend, you will not have friends or attract them. Tony Ortega is not their friend either. They do not have a problem making enemies or having enemies. It is a hate group. That is what they can have and tolerate. Hate and enemies. And that is the focus. The bond over there is hating together.

        You might want to reconsider if you really want to shame and degrade people, for the crime of being someone’s friend. It is not a crime. And it does mean a mindless person, it means being a mindful person.

        Sinar was Marty’s P.C. and Sinar considers himself to be a very good friend of Marty’s. Steve Hall considers himself a good friend of Marty’s. Marty can have friends. Marty has many friends. If you are Marty’s friend, please be mindful as well of his friends.

        It sounds like you have been a good friend and you know how to be someone’s friend. So you should know, you can never be set up for a loss, when you are someone’s friend. Your good will and good deeds come back to you.

        Marty’s challenges right now are not coming from his friends.

        Sinar Parman and Steve Hall are not enemies of Marty’s, so please do not add them to an enemy list or on an enemy list they have not volunteered to be on.

        • “The intolerance towards me is because I am a good friend. As if, because of pressure to humiliate and degrade me for that, I would shape shift into what they have become.

          As it is taboo over there to manifest being a good friend, I can more or less understand why they are parked there.”

          That’s a very good point, and I think a true one.

          I don’t call someone a friend just because they help me or stand up for me, because I could name at least 10 different people that USED that to try and get close to me so that they could influence my thinking and decisions as part of somebodies intelligence operation.

          I call someone a friend who actually is one. They don’t just go through the MOTIONS OF being one, and yes, you can tell the difference.

          Those that I truly call friend I would defend to the death, and vice versa. Loyalty isn’t just a word, it’s a way of life.

          If you even have ONE friendship like that, you are blessed.

        • Gerhard Waterkamp

          Oracle, I described things as they happened in the year 2012. I would hope many people have moved on and grew within the last 4 years. This is not about enemies or friends this is about how people behaved 4 years ago. And I am absolutely not interested in this line of thinking. It is part of the CO$ and ASC culture. If you have enemy lists, you still have a lot of work to do.
          This is about knowing how people behave. Karen works on the SOP to recruit operatives do have her work done for her. Straight from the OSA playbook she was so well trained in. And in 2012 Srinar was one of her operatives and if she asked to jump he asked how high. I hope he has moved on and up and do not consider him or anybody else and enemy.
          I was aware of ASC as early as 1995 when saw them and their motto anything that is bad for Scientology is good. It was the same as CO$ OSA mentality, just with a reverse vector.
          The point is to overcome this and re-establish ones own values and decency against which one evaluates ones own actions. And yes Steve Hall also was a Goofball and under Karen’s spell. I spare you all the details that go with it, but that is what he was in 2012, I wish he has moved on and up and apparently he might have. Good for him.
          Just know you have been setup as well and may not even be aware.
          Influencing the outcome is the primary goal, who gets burned up in the process does not matter.
          Karen works through operatives she recruits and instigates. Somebody asked the question, why she asked Marty to publish the stuff about Ron Sr. Well that is her method, she works it out so others do her work for her. She tricked me a couple of times myself, but it did not take me too long to figure it out and be on the watch. She is ASC head OSA building a network (empire) to influence the outcome. Her downfall is her vanity.
          I never met LRH in person, but the person that most closely resembles many of his personality traits is Karen. She is truly, as she claims for herself, Scientology Royalty. She has emulated the man in so many ways.
          Does that put her on an enemy list? No way, she is what she is and she does what she does, and I make my choices to be part of it or not. In my assessment she is not moving in a direction that I consider healthy and desirable. I just know, what to expect and watch out.

          • I agree with everything you say Gerhard, and I know you are telling the truth. I was a speaker at FlagDown. Karen uses youngsters as her operatives. I experienced it 1st hand. 2 of her operatives were at FD. Their exact words to me were “We work for Karen and you have a very interesting story. Do you mind if we tell Karen about you? Because she’ll probably want to interview you.” I said sure, why not.

            I felt like I was being approached by talent scouts. Of course, Karen never contacted me. Because I was never in The Sea Org. Karen’s only use for 2nd generation Scio kids is their Sea Org stories. I’ve known a couple of ex S/O kids who’ve done videos with Karen. They regret it afterwards. Because they are literally handled like stage props. Then they are kicked to the curb once Karen is done using them.

            That’s why this subject that Marty posted is an important issue for me. It is very upsetting to see 2nd gen. kids being used as a fame game for Karen’s benefit. Some of you older exes have a completely different issue with her. Trust me, us younger folks are not too happy with her treatment of us either. But for different reasons.

            When I see ex S/O kids jump on these forums asking for help- I always see several people telling them “Go to Karen or Tony. They will help you.” Then I jump in & message these ex S/O kids & say “No. Do not go to Karen or Tony. They will not help you. Unless if you have stories of Tom Cruise or famous people.” Then I share with them my story of being born into Scientology, and which critics will use them. Us 2nd generation kids share a common bond with each other. So we look out for each other. We all know that Karen is fake and full of shit with us. Hopefully some day she will have an awakening or a conscience about this.

            • Gerhard Waterkamp

              Marisa, the only thing elating Karen more than moderating ESMB and ‘influencing the outcome’ is seeing her own face on TV. She knows the way to get there is to ‘have’ a really juicy story or one involving some of the big celebrity names in Scientology, best both in combination.
              So she sets up a net under the false pretense of ‘helping’ in the hopes to pull in somebody that can bring her such a story.
              You see the parallels of how help is used in Scientology?
              This is why young ex sea org get pulled in, used and spewed out when there is nothing in it for Karen anymore. She is as much genuinely in the business of helping others as is David Miscavige.
              Don’t hold your breath for any awakening, look out for yourself and for others you love.

      • “We are not reading world news, we are world news.”
        Correct. I also witnessed Jeff speaking those exact words crowing victory in place of any genuine grief.

        • Oh god…Sam, that’s just horrible.

        • Gerhard wrote:

          “Karen has no consciousness when it comes to getting her agenda done. The death of her son did not feel for somebody as close as I was to her during this time as a tragic loss for her, but more as great opportunity to gather pity and media attention for her own self-aggrandizement. As Jeffrey put it: “We are not reading world news, we are world news.” I am aware this is a very harsh statement about a mother losing her child, but this is the ugly truth. Sam got this in her comment 100% correct.”

          I got the feeling at the time that Karen’s son’s death was being used like this, but I really did not want to think that about anyone. Especially about a mother who has lost a child.

          My god.

          It’s just as Gerhard said – Scientology can suck the humanity out of any one.

          Alanzo

          • Gerhard Waterkamp

            Alonzo, you are totally right. I have seen parents losing a child and how devastating it is. So saying this about Karen is very, very harsh. But in this case it is not even the tip of the iceberg.
            The late Roy Selby got involved with Karen and saw himself dependent on her to finish his class 9 training. She used him for cover ups and made him do things against us exploiting his perceived dependency. These actions violated his personal integrity. Shortly thereafter he became ill with Leukemia. Karen was his NOTs auditor, as he told her about his illness she dropped him as PC because ‘she could not audit him anymore as he was terminally ill and auditing somebody in his condition could damage her reputation’.
            He came to us, apologized and told us the whole story. He got auditing from another Indy auditor and we helped him as good as we could during his progressing illness. He passed away, but before he did he made his peace and as he told us gave Karen a good piece of his mind.
            So believe me, nothing I say I say easily and is not backed up by numerous experiences of the same kind.
            Some things are hard to comprehend, this is one of those.

            • “Shortly thereafter he became ill with Leukemia”.

              As if you have any idea when his Leukemia began This is way over the top.

              You also do not mention his long history of treason and criminality on people in the Freezone and the Independent Movement. Or his own cycles selling auditing to people and what he was doing to them.

              You are clearly in a rage. And you are forwarding false and omitted information. While pointing at her for dirty tricks. Practically accusing her of murdering a remorseful repentant saint, with black magic. None of this is true.

              Your rage has eeked out to even encompass and burn her friends with slander.

              Scott Campbell also told me of a chaplain’s cycle he did between you two, that you also do not bring up. Concerning finances. Although I doubt your motives with her were monetary.But I was led to understand you did profit from having crossed her path?

              • Gerhard Waterkamp

                Oh Oracle, you really can’t help yourself can you?
                Your interpretations on what I actually said and you understood show some wild patterns of thinking and assumptions on your part. What I said was Karen dropped a PC when the PC got ill with reasons of protecting her reputation,- not that she made him ill. The latter would be wild speculation and I leave that stuff to you being so much better at it.

                So, before you respond please read this 3 times over and let it sink in, so you really get what I just said and not what the voices in your head whisper to you.

                Yes Karen and I had some financial dealings for services exchanged and since you talk to Scott anyway, just go to him and let him give you all the details before exposing your personal doubts and questions in an open forum.
                Since Karen and I were going separate ways we finally balanced out our accounts and in my books there was an amount I owed her. Karen felt we were quit and did not want the money. Since I did not want to keep money I felt was not mine, I told Marty about it and donated it to his work.

                Rage? You are a piece of work darling, I have to say.

              • You Rock, Oracle. ❤

      • “Karen has no consciousness when it comes to getting her agenda done. The death of her son did not feel for somebody as close as I was to her during this time as a tragic loss for her, but more as great opportunity to gather pity and media attention for her own self-aggrandizement. As Jeffrey put it: “We are not reading world news, we are world news.” I am aware this is a very harsh statement about a mother losing her child, but this is the ugly truth. Sam got this in her comment 100% correct. ”

        I had a similar rather eye-opening experience in private email, when I offered Karen my condolences. She used that “opening” to hit at what she thought was my weakness, my son and his being used as an OSA asset, in what I strongly felt was an effort to recruit me to her side.

        I won’t be forgetting that any time soon.

        Virginia

      • “Karen has no consciousness when it comes to getting her agenda done. The death of her son did not feel for somebody as close as I was to her during this time as a tragic loss for her, but more as great opportunity to gather pity and media attention for her own self-aggrandizement.”

        Gerhard, anyone who ACTUALLY has been close to Karen knows that this statement is total bull shit. Losing her son broke her heart. She also felt great personal guilt. Later, I saw her go beyond the call of duty and help another young man get reconnected with his parent and salvage a life that was headed into oblivion. She is a caring being.
        And what were you trying to suggest to your audience when you said that you “got also involved organizing Karen’s memorial on a boat and lived with her through that time”? As far as I know you and your wife live miles away.
        So pile on, Gerhard and all ye who have “eschewed hate”, and profess unconditional Love For All.
        Continue with the character assassination, all ye who “deplore the OSA culture”.
        Continue railing against the “Anti Scientology Cult”.
        …..And lets not forget the “culture of hypocrisy”.

        • Choosing a sockpuppet name of Espiritu – spanish for spirit – might not have been the best choice here.

        • Gerhard Waterkamp

          Esperitu, why don’t you post in clear name and put provable facts behind your tellings. Everybody including myself here spoke from direct personal experience and our observations give a a very consistent picture. In my case I can prove any word I said.
          I have never met a person where the claim of “wanting to help” and the actually behaviors differed that greatly. The level of Hypocrisies is worth an outcry.
          I know Karen spends a great deal of time on “PR” and there is nothing more she cares about more than appearances. Her “help” is only given if something is in it for her, once that is no longer the case she drops people without any consciousness.
          Any criticism Karen encountered caused her to drop anything else and go into a wild frantic damage control mode. She referred to events like this as “atomic explosions”. I guess we currently have several Hydrogen bombs going off in Los Feliz. Poor Jeff, he is not having a good time.
          In any case she is trying right now to activate any of her possible operatives to stem the tide. This will be fun.

          And by the way telling the truth does not require hate but a great love for it.

    • “My refusal to continue to support her vile behaviour in later years became the sole reason for her ‘SAM DOMINGO IS OSA OSA OSA!!!!!!’ comments in bright red capitals all over ESMB.. me? OSA? REALLY Karen????”

      What the heck? This kind of crap almost makes you wonder if *Karen* is OSA. What a clusterfuck.

  17. Marty, I’m glad you did this article. It will prove how many people defend rapists, vouyerists, extortionists and sex crimes against women.

    Honestly, Bill Cosby needs to join this movement. Because he would be accepted with open arms by Karen D.

    Sexual abuse, rape, coercion against women is my passion. It’s something I am a strong advocate against. When I went public about David Love illegally exploiting my family and I for a Scientology film endeavor supported by Karen & filmed by David Love & Bert Leahy… Karen would make comments like “I support David Love. He does great work” As I am screaming how he is a predatory criminal scamming anti-Scientology women. Karen would censor & stifle every comment of mine. She would compliment David Love every time I would publicly warn women not to allow him into their homes. As though her stamp of approval for David would overpower my screams for help.

    I was told by Patty Moher & Karen De La Careless to keep my mouth shut. Because the anti Scientology Movement is more important than me and my underage daughter being exploited and illegally recorded/blackmailed by David Love. David Love is ‘A prominent Critic’ Me-Marisa Sigond, I am not a prominent critic. Fuck all of you useless women who did not stand by my side during this. You all are enablers of abuse. It’s disgusting.

    I will name names & I will show emails. That’s why everyone gets silent when I speak. Because I don’t fuck around. Karen, you should be ashamed of yourself for your encouragement of David Love. A convicted felon, and someone you defended. Despite his illegal, predatory activity against ex Scientology women.

    Which btw, David’s whole anti Narconon crusade was a huge act. You all got scammed by a professional con artist in case you didn’t know that by now. He scammed The anti Scientology movement for 5 years. Hilarious🙂 It’s hilarious because I tried warning you all.

    Does anyone have morals these days? Apparently not. Karen, you’re a disgrace to women’s rights. You condone men stalking & harassing ex cult victims. I have experienced it 1st hand from you. I wanted help from you. You igored me. Because David Love had a more ‘Prominent’ name than I.

    Now the truth is coming out about the salicious activities of some of these freaks who pose as saints.

    And Alanzo- Don’t start kissing mine and Sam’s ass. You got straight up creepy with both of us on Ministry of Ducks. Leave us alone and stop asking us creepy questions. Thank you.

    • Marisa, in the spirit of justice.

      Karen told Marty this is what she heard. And she posted a post that this is what happened. I don’t know why, I was not there. She had been in a struggle with David Miscavige and she can be a force of nature and take the gloves off.

      I do not think it is fair by any means, to assume because these rumors were mentioned, that man actually did this. Someone accused me smoking meth on ESMB because I was posting a lot. Obviously I do not smoke meth. Never have and never would. It makes people ugly inside and out.

      I do not think we could rightfully judge that man and declare him a “rapist” because of this episode. And I do not think Marty meant to imply that. In fact, he has never even leaned in that direction. He was bringing up the double standard, and flexibility, and hidden agendas.

      What we know is that the case was dropped. He was never prosecuted or convicted of a crime. That is what we know. And that is all I know about it. I dot consider rumors, knowledge.

      Be clear. Marty is not making that accusation.

      In his book, Ron told a different story. It is Karen’s word against his.

      • True – the only source that has “documents” is the COS I-don’t-like-the-Ruthless-book site. Now there’s a fine kettle of fish.

      • I don’t understand what you’re talking about? I never said Ron Miscavige raped anyone. I don’t think I’ve accused Ron Miscavige of rape once on this blog. I am very clear. I know how to read and comprehend also🙂 Thanks for your concern though.

        • Sorry, I must have misunderstood this: “Marty, I’m glad you did this article. It will prove how many people defend rapists,..”

          • I gotcha Oracle. I was meaning, it will prove how many people in The ASC will defend criminals. Like my example of David Love. Karen defended David Love. I didn’t mean Ron Miscavige directly. I can see how my words could be misunderstood. That’s the problem with typing😦

    • Marisa. I could excuse my role in those past events by saying I didn’t know you or trust you when you were going through this ordeal but I won’t. An apology is owed for allowing my judgement to be clouded by the overriding opinions of others and joining with those asking you to ‘tone it down’ or ‘reconsider your position’ based on David Love’s ‘stats’ fighting Narconon. I apologise publicly and unreservedly for my ignorant actions and am happy and proud to call you a friend.❤

      • Someday I hope we meet in person. You are remarkable in your honesty, willingness to say you are sorry and unwavering determination to keep your children/family safe from harm – as much as any human being possibly can.

        These stories show me there is ALWAYS so much more than what is obvious.

        Thanks Sam.

        Windhorse

        • I’d love to meet you in person someday too – I’ve always enjoyed your ability to spread peace and calm in troubled times.
          I think everyone has a specific talent and something beautiful to share with the world with an equal capacity for darkness and it’s a matter of choice which one gets out first and is used for ‘survival’.
          My girls sing like angels and that’s how they bring light and happiness to others.
          I’m still trying to understand the world and why (and by whom or what) I wound up with an incredibly strong sense of loyalty and deep capacity to love (to balance out my wicked temper maybe) but wherever it comes from I’m grateful for those gifts – because I can’t sing for shit!!!

          • Sam — Trust me — anyone who knows me well for any length of time — knows that my temper is formidable — in fact, someone once told me to stop bullying him when all I was TRYING to do was get him to SEE his life … but I wasn’t doing it kindly or calmly in a quiet peaceful way.

            I was practically GROWLING I was so outrageously livid. I have actually seen RED in my life from extreme anger. It scares almost everyone.

            And scares me the most. Probably because I know what someone riveted in the emotion of extreme anger can do. Just watch the nightly news.

            We’ll meet one day I’m sure. I’m learning — good grief — at the moment HOW to work everyday – literally punching a time card (now digitized) WITH a forefinger back up to ensure we workers don’t clock in for someone else and steal — god forbid a few bucks from “the big cheeses” —

            TRUST me — this is a lesson in utter humility cause I want to start screaming at the lot of them …🙂

            So happy for you that you have your girls and a few loyal friends. We don’t really need more.

            I think some of us are wired to loyalty and family from birth.

            Windhorse

      • (thumbs up) Sam. Good for you.

      • Sam, you don’t have to apologize girly. I do appreciate it though. You’ve always been an inspiration to me. From the beginning. I know when we live in different countries, it’s hard to trust, or truly know who someone is. I am very proud to call you my fried as well. I think you are the only other person who has a bigger mouth than me lol🙂 You are awesome.

  18. Marisa –

    “When I went public about David Love illegally exploiting my family…”

    Do you have a link to where this was done? I hadn’t heard about this re: David Love, and I am interested in finding out more about this.

    I’m so sorry this happened to you – stay strong.

    Virginia

      • Ehm. That looks rather like a COS site. Particularly this post has a “pingback” in the comments to what some have said is an OSA smear site about Karen. The pingback link doesn’t work, but http://wayback.archive.org/web/20140915144808/http://survivingkarendelacarriere.com/another-conman/ and I’m pretty sure that “surviving Karen De La Carriere” site is a product of an intelligence operation.

        I’m sorry, but I’m not interested in COS fronts. While they may occasionally have *some* verifiable truths (and that’s rather rare) they are usually actually helping their targets image by being so hysterical, rather than actually nailing anyone.

        Perhaps that may be part of why it is done. A “look at me, I’m being attacked by OSA” intelligence cover-building aspect.

        In any case, I was looking for primary source material, verifiable as being from Marisa Sigmond herself. What you provided doesn’t qualify.

        • I googled David Love, found that link and posted it, period. Who the hell are you to decide whether or not those are “intelligence ops” or whatever latest conspiracy lunacy goes through your head? That site contains a real 911 audio, explain to me how is that an intelligence op?

          If you want to defend Karen do it by supplying the evidence and quit the lame conspiracy theories that OSA is behind everything that happens online.

      • @Marisa

        “Just Media” provided this link in answer to my question to you.

        https://davideforslund.wordpress.com/2014/11/16/david-love-attempted-con/

        I should probably just ask you this directly, because of the theoretically questionable nature of that site and it’s other incoming links (see my response to Just Media).

        So….is this your site? Did you personally write any of this at the above link?

      • Yes, there is a plethora of info on that site. I was warned not to read that site by critics. They said it is an OSA smear site. But it is not OSA at all. The author of this site is a former crime partner of David’s. I contacted him to find out what the deal is, and why does he have a blog about David. I verified everything with this person. So, I gave him all of my info about what David did to add to his collection. I’d say he did a pretty damn good job. He even included the police audio of David framing me.

        • Thanks for the clarification Marisa, good to know.

          I can see WHY you were told it was an OSA smear site. Particularly this post has a “pingback” in the comments coming from a website that some (I think Karen even) has claimed is a COS smear site. The pingback link doesn’t work, but the internet archive has the page.
          As I said earlier today, I’m pretty sure that “surviving Karen De La Carriere” site is a product of an intelligence operation by *someone* – that much is clear. Tony has an article where such “smears” of Karen are portrayed as being done by the Church of Scientology.

          Considering the source, however, adds another element to this mess.

          Was it really the CofS that authored the surviving Karen site, or would Karen herself go so far as to create a smear site against herself to garner credibility among the “anti’s”? I don’t know, but it’s certainly not outside the realm of possibility.

          In any case, *whoever* made the surviving Karen site did certainly take advantage of your story about David Love and used it for their own purposes.

          Virginia

          • I hate OSA. But 90% of the dirt they dish on people is accurate info. If OSA made a smear site saying Bill Cosby is a serial rapist..it doesn’t take away the fact that Cosby is in fact a…serial rapist. We all have dark pasts. OSA are experts at exposing ex Scientologist’s dark pasts. It’s pretty dark & negative shit OSA writes. I’d hate to ever be on OSA’s shit list. Then again, all of the secrets they have on me are things I did before I was 21. They can write about how I masturbated when I was 12 years old, or when I stole a candy bar at the grocery store lol. I’m sure OSA somehow connected The David Love site with Karen’s site. Makes no difference to me. Because I can’t stand either of them🙂 The David Love site is not from OSA though. I know that for a fact.

            • Good to know. I’m not sure I’d go along with the 90% ratio in *all* cases but I get what you mean.

              The problem with OSA is that their attacks on individuals are much like their attacks on psychiatry – hamstrung by Hubbard’s overly insistent misdirections off the real perpetrators, these people are pretty much screwed and consigned to footbulletdom permanently because of the “angle” that they are obliged to work from.

              But, their (Hubbard and Clausewitz) intention comes through loud and clear regardless.

              OBLITERATE the enemy through psychological warfare tactics.

              Much like it seems David Love tried to do to you, actually, come to think of it.

    • Virginia, you’re about 3 years too late to this story lol. I’ve explained it probably 300 times. Probably to the point it annoys people🙂

      There was a huge blow out over this situation on the SP’S R Us Forum back in 2013. I reached out to several ‘Prominent Critics’ privately. Because I didn’t want to create a public scene. Yet, I was scared shitless to know I was the victim of a professional criminal posing as an anti-Scientology activist (David Love).

      I was a part of a documentary film called “Supressapalooza” Filmed by David Love & Bert Leahy. It was supposed to be bigger than Michael Moore’s ‘Farenheit 911’ I’m not joking. That’s what they told me.

      Anyways, they set me up, secretly recorded me in my home, and framed me to get arrested. To portray me as an OSA Op for their film. So the film would be more exciting. Afterwards, David Love was blackmailing me and even offered me a gag order to stay quiet about what they did. Because David Love actually got arrested and their whole plan fell apart. Which is why Supressapalooza will never be released. Because I will sue the fuck outta them.

      I went through 1 year of hell and harassment from David Love. People like Karen were coddling him. Because he speaks against Narconon. Literally, if you’re a Scientology critic, you can molest & rape people and it is accepted. Because speaking against Scientology is all that matters. According to the critic community.

      As for digging up links etc. I’ve done that a million times before. I was banned from SP’S R Us, so I can not retrieve my links. Also, The admins would delete me publicly ousting David because it’s considered ‘Attacking a critic’ and that behavior is not permitted in the anti-Scientology community. But sick freaks like David Love are permitted to secretly record women in their homes. Go figure.

      If you’d like to see info about David Love, just Google ‘David Forslund Love’ He had a legal name change years ago. There are sites that explain his criminal endeavors. Good luck to you, and thanks for the comment.

      • Holy shit Marisa.

        My only experience, really, with David Love was that I had come across one of his articles called: “Cult of Narconon and Synanon drug rehab atrocities” (examiner.com) when I was researching the connections between Synanon and Scientology.

        I did learn later that he was apparently “tight” with Anonymary (posts at ESMB) who has been quite nasty towards my husband and I.

        Thank you for taking the time to answer and fill me in a bit more.

        Virginia

        • No problem🙂 Mary McConnell/Anonmary is a weird gal. There is actually an OSA smear site about her too. That’s how I know her real name is Katherine McBride. The OSA smear sites are easy to tell apart from genuine sites where it is a personal issue. The David Love site was written by some guy who robbed a store with David years ago. He’s known david since the 70’s. David snitched to the cops to save his own ass. So this guy was sent to prison while David walked free. He has a blog entry about this. He began his blog about David back in 2008. Before David was even involved with Scientology/Narconon stuff.

          • I’m familiar with the smear site you mention, I think that’s the one that also talks about some lady that runs ESMB, as well as Anonlover?

            “He began his blog about David back in 2008.”

            So that’s around the time Anonymous got going, if I have that right.

            • Yes. But David Love didn’t become involved with Narconon activism until 2010. Back in 2008 he was being convicted of theft/robbery. Court documents of his charge are on that WordPress site.He had zero involvement with Anonymous or anything Scientology related. He was still a heroin addict back in 2008.

      • Marisa, you probably already did this, but did you check your state laws regarding recording you without your permission? In a number of states it is a FELONY, some even have some seriously stiff penalties for it such as a year in prison. In other states, called one-party states, it is legal though (even if obviously highly immoral as it was in your case). The ones where it is illegal are particularly harsh when said recording gets used against someone publicly, or as part of any form of blackmail, and in at least one state that I know of that adds a MUCH stiffer penalty once that has occurred.

        Just thought you should know.

        Virginia

        • Arizona is a 1 consent state unfortunately. Although it is legal to secretly record someone in 1 consent states, it is a felony to record with the sole intent to blackmail. Which is what David did. He blackmailed me with his secret recordings. I have his blackmail emails saved. I have his gag order bribe saved as well.

          I didn’t realize the magnitude of what David did to me until a month after the fact. He’d make very sinister comments like “I have a big story coming up that I used with my spy recorder” He used a spy cam that looks like a writing pen. I’m sitting there looking at his FB pics thinking “Wait a minute..that’s my friggin car!” If you listened to the 911 audio, you can hear him numerous times talking about how he’s been secretly recording me.

          It is the creepiest, most horrific experience I’ve dealt with in my life. I literally didn’t know what had hit me. Which is why I didn’t know how to approach the critic community about it. Because it really is a bizarre situation out of a horror movie. The worst part is, I thought we were good friends. He’d tell me constantly how I am his best friend etc. He had this planned months in advance to do this to me. He & Bert were hoping to sell The Supressapalooza film to the big screen.

          David is very good at what he does. He is a professional level con man. He knows the exact language to use in order to not incriminate himself. All of his Narconon lawsuits are fabricated. I spent hours researching him & any court cases he had in Montreal against Narconon. There is absolutely nothing. He recently scammed his ex girlfriend and left her at The Canadian border. He took her money & ran. She is an ex Scilon too. It’s a matter of time before he’s sent to prison. I am amazed it hasn’t happened yet.

          • “Although it is legal to secretly record someone in 1 consent states, it is a felony to record with the sole intent to blackmail.”

            That’s interesting. Makes sense.

            “All of his Narconon lawsuits are fabricated. I spent hours researching him & any court cases he had in Montreal against Narconon.”

            I feel a bit Jim Carey here…Rehuheally.

            I actually wondered about that because sometimes it seemed like there’s more noise than effect coming out of certain quarters of the “let’s expose Narconon” fake (as you put it) Anonymous types.

      • I just listened to that 911 call. My god, that was…there are no words. It makes what you said about people trying to cover this up and silence you look to be such an incredibly dark betrayal. In the name of people trying to preserve their image?. Terrible, really terrible.

        Again, I’m so sorry this happened to you.

      • Quote:”Which is why Supressapalooza will never be released. Because I will sue the fuck outta them.”
        Did you realize your video is actually online already?

      • That was quite a trick, getting Marisa’s story and specifically, David Love’s 911 call (exposing his own sick intention and operation to send Marisa to jail that night) in front of the disbelieving exes and anti-s who were being misdirected (and misled) by Karen as per exactly what Marisa posted above.

        The gaslighting of Marisa on some of these forums was despicable. And the “OSA-looking site” was an instant excuse to disregard the public-record 911 call that I am sure Karen would have had to have listened to (if not, what right had she to make comments in his support every time the issue came up?).

        Our action – centered on Facebook’s SPs R Us, but broadened to multiple Scn and ex-Scn “publics” – was of course, positioned as an “OSA operation” – but hey – this was no time to pamper own reputations and covet group acceptance.

        As I recall, there were only 5-6 of us gentlemen who upon hearing the 911 tape, were furious enough not to let it go by without vehement protest that such a creepy sociopath was free and clear to be running confidence tricks on ex-Scio/Narconon females.

        Somehow I managed the trick of not getting booted from the forums, as happened to some of the others (including on SPs R Us to their shame – Marisa herself!), but we got the 911-call audio in front of dozens of critics, exes and anti-s and began turning the tide – at least putting it there, that there were standards of behavior and ethics, that should not be crossed regardless of purported (and very questionable) “products” (which turned out to be empty and useless “PR”).

        I will mention these decent gents here by first name only, and they may chime in here someday or at least be able to point to this action of integrity and decency, someday further down the road –
        – Rusty, Michael, John, Paul, Lex…

        David Love was slated to appear in -several- Scio films (including Bunker’s) and some doors were slammed in faces, but not before the truth grenade was tossed inside. Several of these filmmakers pulled out of involvement with David Love and saved themselves and all of us, a ton of embarrassment (hopefully – have not checked all of them, and not all have been released as yet…).

  19. Add – unless Marisa speaks up and says she personally made that site, of course. If that’s the case, I’d have some questions.

  20. Kudos Marisa, I think we both have been waiting for this day for a long time.

  21. Much as I hate using a COS site, there is an interesting contradiction in time here over when Karen posted the RM Sr. rape was (she said 1976) and the church has itas (with police reports) as happening in March of 1985.

    So…is Karen that far off in her memory (nine years) or are there TWO rape incidents?

  22. Thank you Virginia. AnonMary is another one. Her real name is Katherine Mcbride. Her exact words to me when I went public about David were “Shame on you Marisa” Then she blocked me on FB. Then she told people I was exaggerating. One rumor was, I date raped David Love. Lol! So yea, AnonMary is not Anonymous. She is some lonely miserable housewife who doesn’t have a life. So acting like a cool Anonymous member makes her feel special. She’s re-living her shitty youth now that she’s 58 years old. As are many of these wannabe Anonymous members. Trust me, there is a HUGE difference between a real Anonymous member & a fake. Real Anonymous people have no problems using their real name. Also, real Anons don’t spend 10 hours a day arguing on WWP. Real Anons are very intelligent tekkies. They are also productive protestors. AnonMary and the group of 12 year olds that protest with David Love? No. They are not Anonymous🙂

    Karen, Katherine Mcbride(AKA AnonMary), did everything in their power to silence me and protect David Love. It’s very warped. Sorta reminds me of Mormon Polygamy women who sit back in silence as their 12 year old daughters are being molested. That’s the mentality we are dealing with here.

    I don’t want to take the focus off Marty’s blog. But my story is an example of what he’s talking about with Karen. That’s why I’m bringing it up.

    I am an anti-Scientologist. But I am not pro covering up illegal and harmful actions by other ‘critics’

    Vouyerism, illegal recordings, abuse, exploitation are things I will not tolerate. They should not be condoned in the anti-Scientology community. When they are, I will speak out as publicly as I can about it. And as some of you know, I have a pretty big mouth🙂

    It’s called ‘Good Morale and Standards’ Something The Anti-Scio Community can use a lot of right about now. Peace to you all xo

  23. Karen de la Carriere has successfully infiltrated a number of online forums and social media. She is also an admin in a secret Facebook hate group where she is the ultimate ruler. I was “banned” from it but I saved my share of postings.

  24. I want to add 1 thing. People will see my comments on Marty’s blog and say “Looks like Marisa is on OSA’s payroll now” Like I really need an extra $20 a week from OSA lol.

    Anyways, I’m speaking my mind. That’s the boring simplicity of this. Whenever you speak your mind and it goes against the herd, they accuse you of being OSA. It’s a nice lil excuse they have. If anything bad is ever said “OSA must be behind it”

    I have news for you freakazoids (David Love, Karen, AnonMary etc). Get your shit together. Quit fucking people over and being demented sadists. Then Marty won’t need to write things like this. And I won’t have to openly tell on all of you🙂 Bye-bye!

    • Marisa, how about poor me? I’ve been called “Indy OSA” for a very long time by cowardly poopyhead with an unending stream of sockpuppet identities on both ESMB and WWP. I had them pegged for OSA Internet Unit, but now I’m starting to wonder.

      Michael A. Hobson
      Independent Scientologist

      • I often wonder if OSA staff members are just as disgusted by the antics of the dirty sock brigade as we are – or are actually capable of such extreme cruelty and callousness. I’ve been an innie and an outie and factually I DESPISE ‘the tech’ and everything connected to it (yeah I know – not very ‘middle path’ but I’m working on it). However I will say this: I was treated far more kindly when I was an innie. No wonder people don’t want to leave if what they have waiting for them is about as much pain as they can tolerate before their heads blow up completely. Well done for sticking it out. Hate what you stand for but not who you intrinsically are🙂

      • Hobster! I love calling you that🙂 Anyways, I don’t know. ESMB is crazy. I think I signed up for ESMB 10 years ago. I couldn’t relate to anyone. So I haven’t been on there since. WWP & ESMB are negative, shitty sites. If I go in WWP & told everyone I want world peace, i’d have 10 trolls calling me every name in the book. Seriously. I don’t even know why people get on WWP. Real Anons don’t even go on WWP. Because it is for kids.

  25. AJ- Are you talking about Karen’s secret group called ‘Outer Spanks’ I mean..Outer Banks? Yes, I was banned from that group. Because I accidentally said the name Outer Banks publicly. I didn’t realize it was a secret group. Nor did I mean any disrespect by saying it publicly.

    I sent Karen a PM to apologize if I said anything offensive. Her response to me was very bizarre. She said “Dear Marisa, you violated our privacy. We at Outer Banks respect our privacy. Let me cool down, then you can contact me in a week.”

    No joke. I thought I was communicating with some weird character on the Wizard of OZ. That dude who speaks, but no one can ever see him. The voice in the sky. Anyways, Outer Banks is a pro-Scientology group. It’s a bunch of old timers reminiscing about the good ole days on The Apollo.

    If running shitty FB forums gives Karen some sense of joy & power. Then hey, she can jam out with her clam out. Right on sista! I’m coming to the conclusion that I have to deal with these wack jobs with compassion. Sorta like my 70 year old aunt who’s locked in a mental hospital. She drives me crazy. But..I gotta be understanding. Because she’s not right in the head.

    • Marisa wrote:

      “If running shitty FB forums gives Karen some sense of joy & power. Then hey, she can jam out with her clam out. Right on sista!”

      That’s one of the funniest things I’ve read on the Internet in a very long while.

      Alanzo

    • Marisa, yes that group. I was banned for other reasons by Karen. I didn’t bother to pm her because, like anything else with Karen, she is never wrong.

      • Sounds like you know her more on a personal level. I hear ya about how she operates though. I PM’ed her because I thought I said something offensive to her. I couldn’t find anything bad I said. Come to find out.. I broke her code of secrecy lol. I said Outer Banks publicly. What a damn basket case she is. Seriously.

    • Weren’t Tony Ortega and Ray Jeffries on that forum? I was told they were. Are they parked on a pro Scientology Facebook forum? That would be strange. I do not think it would be a pro Scientology then. Maybe they passed false information to Karen?

  26. someone on Whyweprotest.net posted:

    let this sink in ….. Karen de la Carriere said about Ron Miscavige Sr.:

    “No, I don’t recall” I [Karen] said sullenly. My mood was in the depths of depression. “I told you how I was all fucked up, my life was done, I had royally fucked up” ~~ he [Ron Miscavige Sr.] described how he had lost it and raped a girl in Philadelphia. And I [Karen] said “come on Ron, come on, all is not lost, cheer up! are you trying to tell me your life is over over one outrageous incident?”

  27. To the person who posted my video above-Yes I’m aware of that. Bert Leahy edited David Love completely out of that interview. He has to edit David out of everything now for legal reasons. Essentially, David ruined that film from being released in its entirety. But you can still find clips of the various interviews. I wanted Bert to release my interview. Because it’s a pretty good quality video. Plus, it educates people on how bad Scientology is.

    Bert apologized to me about what happened. That’s another story in itself though.

    I need to start my own Youtube Channel. ‘Story Time With Marisa’ Then I can share all of these wonderful experiences I’ve had lol

  28. I am not expert , but this one is good …

    Big hello from LRHs Bulgravia.

  29. I think at the end of the day, everything that seems to be a big mystery, will be found to have a perfectly understandable and human reason behind it. Except for Tony Ortega.

    He is Scientology’s number one enemy and he has never stepped foot across the threshold. Has never purchased a product. Has never been set up for a loss. His fans adore him because he is an attacking enemy. Not because he is strumming the guitar.

    They do not see how peculiar this situation is. But I can pretty much guarantee you, it is why nobody will employ him right now. It is very peculiar. he comes across as insane. And anyone from the outside reading the comments section of his blog, would have to be out their mind to drag him into some office space and carry that with him.

    Everything else, there is an understandable answer. And I do not think it is all the mystery it seems to be.

    If Karen was using Ron Miscavige to needle his son, I’m sorry, that is understandable, considering. After what she got put through, she was probably just fighting fire with fire. I mean, when she was still at the Int Base.

    Anyone else could easily understand this. But in Scientology we are taught we are not “human”. Mistakes are human. We are very human. We are surviving as humans. And this is the simple truth.

    If she did turn against Marty, maybe she really thought he did sell out and maybe, just maybe it broke her heart. Because I know she loved him very well. Maybe she had a loss. Maybe it was a little too much for her to do the math on what was going on because she had so much on her plate. And maybe she made some mistakes.

    Anyone else on Earth could understand this simple turn of events. Because it is being human.

    She has helped a lot of people too. And she has laid herself out on the front lines and owned all of it.

    The people here that are upset with her, seem to be people that loved her very well too. Which may be why there is an upset to begin with. Maybe she did make some mistakes with you too. That only makes her human. And we still did not hear why you liked her so well to begin with. It is human to be upset with someone who was important to you. To be upset when someone you care about does not respond as you might or would have.

    Nobody needs wonder why Marty is upset. He has been set up for losses and injustice and his wife has been targeted. He would be a robot if he were not dismayed and disappointed. Especially when nobody is claiming it except Tony Ortega.

    Karen is a, “lead, follow, or get out the way” person. She is a very dynamic and potent force. She also fights fire with fire. And 9 times out of 10, she can burn someone in their tracks. Because if you stand in her way, she will handle you.

    Maybe the rest of us are not like that in the Scientology arena, but we can be or have been in other arenas, that are more important to us. I can get like that on the drop of a dime, when placed in my field of purpose. Possibly, much worse than she.

    This is why she can move mountains. And this may be why some toes got stepped on.

    But she is a human and she cares about people. She just gets laser vision. When she has her mind set to get something done. And she does not hold morning musters to inform everyone, all the time, of all she is doing and why. Mainly because she is action Jackson. Or because she feels the people she can trust are limited. She does not misuse people by throwing them into arenas she knows will not work for them, as a general rule.

    She has done a few things I thought were distasteful. It was never to me. I did not need to pile that up as her main value. I know it is not. I know what she is taking on and what she thinks she should be doing. And why. I don’t even know why. She rolls with more force in this area because it means more to her than it does to me, and maybe people here too.

    I just know she does not deserve to be judged by her mistakes or her misunderstandings. Because this is not her main value.

    And I know she has helped a lot more people than she has offended.

    I think if everyone could just pause on this for a minute, and be the human self, you would see that none of us are bad people. There is just a lot of mystery and hurt feelings. But she has feelings too. And maybe she is in mystery about some things too.

    I do not like to see this rift between her and Marty. Or between anyone here and her.

    I know why Marty had to put his down on this insanity. The abuse and domestic terrorism overt and covert, is repelling social sadism. There is no understanding that. I do not consider it human. Dogs have better social intercourse. But these folk on ESMB and Ortega’s blog, represent such a minute percentage of our civilization, it hardly bears mentioning anymore. That they remain contained within those confines may be a blessing in disguise.

    I think if Marty and Karen can sit down with another face to face, this rift could be mended. If someone would just give him some answers, that would only be fair. If he does not have answers he is then burdened with having to look for them and figure things out for himself. And he will.

    At the end of the day, none of us will profit from this rift in any way, shape or form. And if we contribute to it, we are contributing to a loss for ourselves. And for them. That is not a win. And it isn’t even between a win and a loss.

    I think we can all reach inside ourselves and find the mercy necessary to get through this and move it into an arena of correction. I would not think of setting anyone up for a loss, by mentioning it as a possibility, if I did not believe we were not capable of doing that. We are.

    So, I am available in any capacity as a mediator, although I do not consider myself the best person for this effort. I can think of others better than I but I don’t like to volunteer for other people. And I don’t mean mediator in the sense of a 3d co audit, or any kind of stressful or degrading situation for anyone. Because I think both of these people are good people with just very different reasons and approaches to life and working out issues. That have some misunderstandings between themselves. I do not think people need to “be sorry”, only understood.

    If they did not care about each other, they would not be upset with each other. So the upset is not the intrinsic value here. It is the care factor.

    None of us, deserve to be hurt. What we do deserve is to be informed with the truth, to be understood, and to be treated with respect and care.

    We are all in this theater because we cared about other people. That is not a mistake. That is not a handicap. Hope for yourself and others, is nothing to be ashamed of. It is all that causes this civilization to evolve and preserver.

    • Oracle,

      While I applaud your efforts, I feel quite strongly that it should be understood, as a fact, that there do exist situations where “being human” is simply neither a defense nor some sort of inverted demonstration of responsibility. To me, that’s more like passing the buck.

      Taking this out even further, some things *are* irremediable and there actually *is* no middle ground nor should there be. Wrong, period. No Parley.

      I’m sure you can think of some examples.

      I am not saying this necessarily applies to Karen or whoever, but it might.

      As a sort of loose general rule, I’m not particularly interested in mediative efforts if they result in hiding things that should never be hidden.

      Just ask the church…they tried that on me and I refused.

      Virginia

      • Not saying you’re trying to hide anything by offering to mediate, Oracle. I think you probably know that but I wanted to be clear just in case.

      • Being human is a major, “Why”.

        • I did a doubt formula, and decided to join the group of humans.

          They are warm and soft, and they smell good. The smell of the sweaty men, causes me to shape shift and transports me into parallel universes. This is incredible magic.

          There are all sorts of beautiful and interesting things to move around that they create. Books with symbols, with words that can shape shift other humans!

          They are sentimental and secretive. They are curious and fearful at the same time. They invent things that smell good a taste good. They can charm you with magic.

          You can not see them, you can only see their possessions. They are gypsy like and tribal. They can be tricky or generous. They seem to have every capability. They can cause you pain or great pleasure. They can sow into your being good memories or bad memories, and leave a little piece of themselves within you. This shape shifts you too.

          They can move all over the place until you imagine you have lost one of them. Only to have them pop up before you when you again, when you least expect them to appear. This is luxurious enchantment.

          They can move into you and possess you! You can not catch one and keep it as a pet. They are travelers that must roam. During the Sun’s cycle, they surrender all possessions for a period of hours, and seep into some void I know not of what. They vanish. They return to claim possessions and then move things around again. This is a strange conquer / surrender cycle that keeps them very flexible.

          Invisible things are valued greatly, such as music, ghosts, attitudes, ideas, and feelings. All of the invisible commands the possessions. They can make something from nothing! They can make nothing from something. They trade continuously. The invisible and visible. They are compulsive traders and this devours most of their time. They had a system, to trade a phone call for a dime!

          The entire civilization, is built upon a sweet caress.

          These humans, they appeal to me. And I have joined their group. Call me lazy, call me crazy, I weak with hope. I hope this magic never ends. I love this thing and all it means. See me as a fallen angel. I agree with every angle.

          • Beautiful post, Oracle. And it reads like poetry.

          • “See me as a fallen angel.” You must be able to do unsanctioned telepathy then, like all the FALLEN. (wink).

            Recently I started reading Elizabeth Hunter’s Irin Chronicles which are surprisingly fast-paced and interesting reads for my “bedtime” reading. Classified as fiction, the story is built around the idea of *two* groups of fallen angels, a rather different take on the usual story. You might enjoy them.

        • It certainly can be, for some, but I think that was part of my point – it’s often used as an excuse, not an accolade.

  30. Marisa, I don’t remember telling you to keep your mouth shut but if I did I sincerely apologize. I’m glad you spoke out and exposed the fraud. Thanks.

    • Patty. I think as an admin of that group your were often put in an untenable and unenviable position. You did your best. We all did.

    • Patty – It took some balls for you to apologize like that, and so publicly. Kudos.

    • Patty, thank you for apologizing. I feel weird when people apologize to me. Because it makes me feel like shit afterwards lol. I really believe us women need to stick together more often. I know we have our disagreements etc. But, when it comes down to it, we need to be there for each other. If Sam, you, any other ex Scio chic needs help, I will be there for all of you.

  31. Seems I have quite a bit of reading to do here to catch up after a few months respite. It’s almost overwhelmingly sad that these shenanigans are being perpetuated by those who know firsthand the damage that is wrought.

    The behind the scenes games, manipulations, and attempts at controlling others are both believable and unbelievable. It’s unbelievable to imagine those who were in a church where games, manipulation, and control ruled the day, would get out of that atmosphere and then continue those actions on other former members and never ins. It’s believable though, because it has happened for years and has been documented. Why bother to leave scientology if you’re going to maintain their dirty tricks? You leave to be FREE, not to continue playing those games.

    This is nothing for people to enjoy or to relish while eating popcorn. Those who enjoy this are also part of the problem. The ASC exists and it’s toxicity is making many people, who are good people at heart, act in despicable ways. May everyone someone gain some perspective and peace in their lives.

  32. Now that we know that Karen De La Carriere pays Tony Ortega to publish certain stories on his blog, a fun critical thinking exercise might be to go back through some of Tony Ortega’s stories and find out which ones were paid for by Karen.

    When I spoke to Karen during our multiple conversations on the phone, her pointed little beanie was constantly spinning with LRH quotes – mostly from LRH’s GO/OSA intelligence and PR writings. So I would bet on stories that Tony has published which were the most cruel and salacious, and which had the most personal and over-the-top character assassinations. I would bet on those stories because they most closely follow LRH tech and policy on PR and Intelligence.

    For instance:

    Was Tony paid by Karen to destroy Monique Rathbun for dropping her lawsuit?

    Was Tony paid by Karen to shame Scientologist Cathy Tweed after she lost her daughter to suicide?

    Was Karen involved in influencing Tony to smear Ex-Scientologist Carmen Llywelyn as she was bravely exposing Scientology by telling her story on Gawker and in the National Enquirer?

    Because, after all, – KAREN DE LA CARRIERE IS A CLASS 12 AUDITOR WHO STILL AUDITS PEOPLE USING STANDARD LRH ETHICS, TECH, AND POLICY.

    Think about that.

    This is a person who is covertly influencing what you read and hear on the Post-Scientology internet.

    Ask some questions. Poke around. Use critical thinking on the kinds of things you read from these guys.

    Which of Tony Ortega’s stories do you think have been bought and paid for by Karen’s Indy OSA?

    Alanzo

    • AND I’m so dumb/naive/stoopid it flew OVER my head that Karen pays Tony to publish certain articles. I got that Karen supports (pays) Tony but I didn’t realize it was for CERTAIN articles.

      GOBSMACKING — as the British would say.

      Windhorse

  33. Patty, I do like you. I always have. I reached out to you because I felt you were a source of strength. You didn’t verbatim tell me to keep my mouth shut. But you did say it can’t go public. Because it would be a huge win for OSA. You did tell David to stop taunting me on FB. Then you PM’ed me and said “Ok he said he would stop” I do appreciate what you did. I understand that many wanted to stay out of this mess.

    I wanted to talk to you on the phone. Because I literally was scared as hell. But for some reason ex Scilons still use LRH’s policy that all Comm has to be in writing. No talking is allowed lol.

    At that point it dawned on me ‘no one gives a shit. Guess I’m on my own.’ David Love continued to threaten & harass me. So I decided to take justice into my own hands.

    I really wanted help from a woman. Because this was an issue I felt a woman could understand. There is not 1 single ex or current Scientology woman who helped me during this. Trust me. I reached out to 7 of them. They were more concerned about my story ruining the image of the critic community- Than the fact a predatory psycopath, con man extraordinaire is targeting ex Scilon women.

    I was told countless times to “show dox or stfu” Patty you did tell me that too. Like, how the fuck am I supposed to show notarized paperwork that David Love was secretly recording me? I would think David would have the dox on that lol. Really people, stop having a dox or stfu mentality. Unless if you are a bankruptcy attorney. Dox or stfu is not how life works. It also makes you an imbicile, because you can’t come to conclusions on your own. Just my opinion.

    Lots of men helped me. Scott Gordon, Arnie, Paul Salerno, Rusty, Mark Plummer, 2 kick ass Anons who made a YouTube video of the 911 call, and the biggest big-wig old school critic on the planet. To all of you, I thank you a million times over. It is nice to see brave people take a stance. That is what true activism is about. Defending what is the right thing to do. Regardless if it is the popular thing to do.

    I actually joke and call my ordeal ‘The Jerry Sandusky case of The Critic Movement’ Remember Jerry Sandusky? The sick pedophile who was coaching Penn State football? He was running a champion team, and molesting all of the boys. Everyone knew what he was doing. But they stayed silent. Because they didn’t want to ruin the football team. Yep. Same concept with David Love & the critic community.

    Think about that next time someone is screaming for help. Instead of ignoring the person because they aren’t as ‘pop-yul-ar’ as an outspoken critic. Hopefully my situation serves as a lesson. A very shitty, horrible lesson. Because trust me, it was not fun. Hope you all have a good day🙂

    • Marisa, I am very sorry for the manner in which you have been exploited in that arena. I think in general, in the Scientology culture, women are viewed as second class citizens. At least, the lowest, in “rank”.

      In any culture, where “religious freedom” = “disciplined by being ordered to murder your child”, you have misogynists and they can be women as well. Women who hate women. It is a form of anti self as well.

      There are women, who can not tolerate the presence of other women. In the Sea Org, women were called “Sir”. They were addressed as men, as if to give them validity. And clothed in masculine attire. They were given the same allowance as men, although they had feminine needs. Everything that made them females was ignored or suppressed. Their identity was suppressed as if a potential virus. This does not = “equal rights”. It = “less rights”.

      Women have never, “been here on the same terms as everyone else”. Ever. We carry additional burdens and responsibilities. Add to that the suppression from fellow women, and our burden grows.

      Did you know the word glamour, comes from the word grammar? And that both of these words are connected to magic?

      glam·our ɡlamər noun archaic: enchantment; magic. Early in the history of English, the words “grammar” and “glamour” meant the same thing: the power to charm.

      Women are gifted with magical powers. We can put a human being where none existed before.

      Magic frightens many people.

      You are dangerous. Own it.

      • Thank you Oracle. I like your words of wisdom🙂 I do know about women being called sir in the S/O. Now that you put it like that, I’ve never thought about women in Scientology having their feminine identity taken away. You are exactly right. I never experienced S/O because I did some good ole LSD lol🙂 I did join staff twice though. Once at 7 years old, then again at 19. What’s funny is, people always ask me if you are my mom. They say “Your mom is Oracle isn’t she?” My mom is Sharon Sigmond. So when I see your posts, I gotta chuckle to myself🙂

        • Oh wow, that’s interesting. Didn’t I pull her out of a witch hunt once when she was the target? Or was that another Sharon? She was accused of being OSA just because she left an emeter in someone’s office?

  34. Harpoona Frittata

    Many of the regular contributors to this blog are far more informed regarding the many details concerning the behavior and interactions of a number of ex-cherch members since they left the cherch than I am. And I have to admit that without that detailed background knowledge concerning the issues and individuals being focused on here, the conversation is very difficult to follow.

    As the discussion has focused in ever-more closely on the details of the interpersonal interactions between different individuals, and the opinions and related information that others contributed to those conversations, it occurred to me that without the kind of background that many of you have, the further the conversation went in that direction, the less I’d be able to follow it and make sense of it in any kind of integrated and comprehensive fashion.

    That’s not at all to say that there’s anything wrong or objectionable about continuing the conversation in that direction; it’s just to say that you leave everyone who isn’t up to speed on it in the dust, with no real perspective from which to sort fact from fancy or ability to evaluate what’s being asserted or negated. Indeed, interested, engaged and scientologically informed observers, such as myself, appear to have been unintentionally put in a position of either having to take a side or just STFU and sit this one out.

    Can I offer a third option here for those who are engaged, yet don’t wish to take a side in what appears to be shaping up here as another us vs. them fight?

    It seems to be that there is an overiding concern here that should take precedence over and put aside whatever past occasions of interpersonal conflict and upset that many here and in the U.B. have in the current foreground of your focal consciousness. And that is the fact that the cherch, under the malign and sadistic dictatorial control of lil davey the savage, continues to commit massive human rights violations and abuses on an ongoing basis and with no discernible reason to believe that he intends to stop of his own accord.

    To me, the common cause that everyone who is aware of and concerned about the many and ongoing human rights abuses that the cherch is engaged should be bringing them to a halt as soon as possible. From the perspective of one who does not (make that, “will not”) choose sides in this current debate, this is the overarching concern that should be kept in the foreground of our attention on a constant and continuing basis.

    I fully intend to keep my eyes on that prize and would appreciate the support and company of all those who feel the same and are willing to put aside the personal in the service of what I feel is self-evidently the higher purpose here.

    I’m mindful that putting aside the personal can be a very difficult thing to do, but is it even possible to argue against trying your best to do so? I don’t think so, but if anyone would like to argue it, as it relates to the issue as I’ve framed it, then the floor is now yours.

    • “To me, the common cause that everyone who is aware of and concerned about the many and ongoing human rights abuses that the cherch is engaged should be bringing them to a halt as soon as possible.”

      Why don’t you go to the beginning of this blog and read forward? You can educate yourself as to how Marty managed this over the last several years.

      It is a very exciting, even Biblical, adventure!

      • A biblical adventure? lol You seriously crack me up with your choice of words🙂

      • Hi Oracle! – Speaking of exciting, I just looked at your phoneyrawdata.wordpress.com site! I think it’s very well done. Good job – really

        A commenter on Tony’s blog put up some funny posts dumping back on you, but you have the upper hand since Tony’s daily posts become yesterday’s news, while your site is sort of “stationary” and a shorter read.

        This is exciting! Let’s see how it plays out. Your antagonist will have to keep mentioning you, so you’ll actually get more exposure until Tony starts deleting her references to you. Or who knows – maybe he won’t even do that, working on the idea that any publicity is good publicity!🙂

      • P,S Oracle – You might consider date stamping some of your entries so someone could cross reference them to what was being said at the UB.

      • What I want to know is who plays God in this adventure story. Is it the Old or New Testament of Mark…

      • Oracle – An editorial comment – A brief summary or mention of people or topic(s) covered at the top of an entry (post) would allow someone to scan for their own area of interest. Tony said this about that, and then a critic said this about that.

        You’ve entered the field of critics of critics. Have fun and good luck.🙂

    • HF wrote:

      “I’m mindful that putting aside the personal can be a very difficult thing to do, but is it even possible to argue against trying your best to do so? I don’t think so, but if anyone would like to argue it, as it relates to the issue as I’ve framed it, then the floor is now yours.”

      Thank you (lighting my pipe and straightening out my powder blue ascot)

      I’ll ask you a question about what you wrote that I have seen many Exes ask themselves over the years.

      You wrote:

      “And that is the fact that the cherch, under the malign and sadistic dictatorial control of lil davey the savage, continues to commit massive human rights violations and abuses on an ongoing basis and with no discernible reason to believe that he intends to stop of his own accord.”

      What evidence do you actually have for this statement the “cherch” is engaging in “massive human rights violations and abuses” in present time?

      You do know that Claire and Marc Headley, for instance, sued for human trafficking and the judge threw out the case because, under the first amendment in the US, Scientology has a right to do what they were accused of, and the US government does not have the power to stop them, right?

      So why do you think that the Church continues to commit “massive human rights abuses”?

      And where are the raids by law enforcement in the US, or anywhere in Europe, if there are such massive human rights violations and abuses going on?

      See, to ask this question is heresy to Anti-Scientologists. You get filleted by them. There is a thread on ESMB right now called “Rathbun Attempts To Defend David Miscavige” for Marty’s review of Ron Sr’s book where he questioned the idea, after working directly with DM and PIs for 25 years, that DM personally told a PI to “Let Him Die”.

      Filleted.

      What if this idea of “committing massive human rights abuses” is a cognitive distortion where you are making a mountain out of a molehill and working yourself up for – I won’t say nothing – but for very little?

      What if the information outlets such as TonyOrtega.org and ESMB are getting people riled up and keeping them riled up for – again, not nothing – but for very little?

      So it isn’t that these things are personal. There are certain individuals, such as Karen and Tony Ortega and others, who have a little cloistered and controlled group going where real questioning and discussion of the reality that is really going on with Scientology in present time is not allowed. They get real personal. They call you an OSA agent, or a “loon” or ban you, or accuse you of being paid off by DM for asking such questions, or for writing what you really think is true.

      That is no way to engage in real reform. In order to reform something you have to know exactly what the problem is. And so what if the Church of Scientology is not engaging in massive human rights violations and abuse, or anything illegal at all?

      Where will all the book sales go? And all the eyeballs and pledgie buttons and donations?

      So I asked that heretical question of you, HF.

      Can you answer it?

      I return, to you, the floor.

      Alanzo

      (very light, almost imperceptible, applause is heard from one or two loons in the corner as Alanzo exits the floor)

      • Good post Al. l For one, much as I disagree with the Ethics and Justice applications as used by the “Cherch”, am far more concerned about the apparent ease with which US cops get away with shooting and killing unarmed people, and the apparent racial bias in these kind of shootings. Or with a foreign policy that leads to the oppression and slaughter of thousands, maybe millions, in the Middle East and around the world. On the plus side, some Ideal Org was recently reported to have produced 2 Clears last week. As pathetic as that stat is, compared to, say 1970s stats for orgs, it is arguably 2 more Clears than most other institutions have produced. Although of course the US foreign policies have resulted in the “clearing” of possibly hundreds of thousands of people in the Middle East by the “R2-45” method….

      • Thank You Alanzo

        That really put things into perspective for me.

        (Signed, “one of the two loons”)

        • It did. I think the “absence” of attack towards the church doesn’t necessarily mean the church isn’t guilty of helping to forward human rights abuses though. Take the Catholic Church and it’s run of pedophile priests. Did it get shut down by the Federal Government for those horrific abuses? No. Why not?

          Perhaps scientology serves a useful function to some high up on the food chain, enough that it has some sort of protection. What could some of those uses be? Well, I don’t suppose anyone else has noticed how they tend to do their “human rights” works in what the Fox Propaganda fifth estate types tell us are “communist” or “extremist” territories.

          I tend to start looking very closely at places termed that, because there is *always* something different going on behind all the “look at the terrorists” puppet shows.

          After all, many are probably ignorant of the fact that one Catholic Pope after another positioned the breakaway and independent United States of America as “communist” and the most evil place imaginable.

      • Excuse me, but are you saying that Scientology does NOT commit human rights abuses? Are you REALLY saying that?

        • I’m sorry but that is a stupid, unthinking question. Are those the only alternatives?

        • ITR wrote:
          Excuse me, but are you saying that Scientology does NOT commit human rights abuses? Are you REALLY saying that?

          I asked a question.

          I know. It’s completely blasphemous of me to ask the questions that I asked.

          But I’ll ask you the same thing.

          HF specifically said that the “cherch” is ” committing massive human rights violations and abuses on an ongoing basis” and Michael Shermer taught me that basic skepticism is always asking for evidence in support of a claim.

          Since almost everything that has been into court, including the Headley case and other cases, have been thrown out or lost, then what evidence do you have that HF’s claim is true?

          I know. You shouldn’t have to show it to me. It’s a self-evident article of faith that we can never question.

          But here I am questioning it.

          Can you answer it?

          Alanzo

        • ^—— Alanzo is saying exactly what he wrote – neither more nor less – which is not your straw man spin.

        • Is this REALLY your sock writing this post?
          Everything sounds completely different as IF, someone else has taken over the sock puppet. But why would a socky sock do that? do that and who would take over?

    • I do understand what you are saying. With all due respect, The United States Federal Govt is the only entity that will topple The Cult of Scientology. We can protest The CoS until the cows come home. But it is not going away until The Supreme Court has an interest in it. I came to that conclusion 2 years ago.

      Unless if there is a dynamic group effort where we all get involved with our gov’t directly- Scientology is going to remain a religion. Because that is the law of the land currently. Our Federal Gov’t does not care about online cyber fights within the anti-cult community.

      From my perspective, as someone who was born into Scientology, I believe all injustices need to be aired publicly. If there is someone in the anti-Scientology movement who is being a criminal or doing harm to others. I want to know about it. We all need to know about it.

      If fighting Scientology is truly a passion in your heart, then all of this online banter is irrelevant.

      I think of it like this: If I want to be an activist against racism, I’m not going to stop my activism just because black & white people call each other racist names. So, you should continue your fight against the cult if you feel passionate about it. Ignore all of us on this forum. That is my advice to you🙂 Because fighting & arguing is a part of all controversial topics. It will never be peaceful. Hence the idea of “The fight against Scientology.”

      To the best of my knowledge Marty’s blog has never been about everyone uniting & fighting the cult together lol. His blog is a resource of information. It is also an outlet for him to discuss what’s going on in his involvement with all things Scientology related. He gets attacked by OSA & The Bunkerites on a regular basis. So, by all means, he has every right to attack back. His blog began years ago. Mainly Indie Scientologists were followers of his blog . Now, it is a hub for Scientology watchers. Because Scientology is a hip & trendy subject matter these days. Now everyone wants to read what Marty has to say because he was on HBO & The Louis Theroux movie. lol

      There is a history in this critic movement that goes back over 2 decades. That history is not going to be muffled or silenced because newer folks to the scene don’t know what’s going on. This shouldn’t be about feeling left out, or like you don’t know the personal histories of people. This should be about you Fighting The Cult of Scientology. Be your own warrior. Don’t follow the herd or care about being ‘in the know’ The strongest soldiers are those who stand alone. I say that with nothing but respect & kindness to you. Peace & Much Love.

    • miscavigeisscaredofsam

      You’re asking people to ‘forgive and forget’ atrocities they suffered because you are a poor ignorant sock with no personal relationship with any of the victims who have suffered at the hands of Tony and Karen’s gang? Arrogant at best and most certainly insensitive. Do you use a sock because because you are afraid of the cult? Or because you are afraid to stand behind your words?

    • HF, I don’t think you are really offering a “third option”. You are pleading for us to take sides against the “Cherch”. I see Marty’s post as focusing on the fact that the ASC, exes, antis, independents, even never-ins, etc, are prone to doing the same kind of atrocious things to others, as the CoS does.
      The point is to rise above feeling that way and doing those kinds of things. The people who are posting their “personal experiences” are responding and confirming that Marty’s focus is valid, because they have experienced this themselves. Each side in a war believes that “God is with us.” In fact, I doubt God approves of any of the killing, literal or figurative, that both sides indulge in.

      • Harpoona Frittata

        Perhaps I used too many words there. Let me see if I can sum it more succinctly and better describe what I see as a more desirable alternative to: a) choosing sides between the factional conflict that’s been brewing here, or b) throwing up one’s hands and walking away.

        The viable alternative that I see is to stay engaged, but refuse to choose up sides. I’m not anti anything: I’m pro human rights. If folks want to audit and be audited, and they believe in $cn’s central tenets, then that’s there complete right. It’s only when the cherch engages in criminal behavior and human rights abuse that I object to that.

        This pro human rights position includes $cn, but extends beyond it as well, to include a concern with all groups who, for example, enforce policies of disconnection and harm families. So, the third option here is to avoid the us vs. them conflicts that appear to have proliferated and divided the post-$cn community in favor of finding common cause with those who believe as I do that working to ensure that essential human rights are preserved and honored is the higher purpose which few would argue against.

        Using your analogy, the “war” is against human rights abuses and violators, not against religious beliefs or practices.

        Is that any clearer?

        • Hi HF –

          I’m not seeing an answer to my question.

          Why not?

          Alanzo

        • Well put and clearly stated. Applause from the corner.

        • And (‘Harpoona Frittata’) in response to your statement in the earlier discussion between you and I on this blog (because there was no room left on the thread), I was not mistaken in my understanding of the content of your post. Nor was I mistaken in my observation of your attempt to manipulate and control group opinion. Pro tip – those tactics might work on herds but never on free-thinking men and women.

          • Harpoona Frittata

            If the rather benign and genuinely heart-felt suggestion that tolerance, love, compassion and forgiveness are a good thing and could be pursued here to everyone’s advantage appears to you as an “attempt to manipulate and control group opinion,” then I’d really like to know what it is that you feel that you’re being herded towards😉

            f you read my thoughts on the subject and believed that I was suggesting that victims should bear the burden of their victimizer’s sin, then you most certainly DID misunderstand me there. There’s nothing in any of my comments where I said or implied anything of the like.

            As I mentioned before, everyone should feel completely free to choose to forgive or to do the opposite. I was merely weighing in with my own view on why I believe doing the former works best. If that’s not proved true for you, then so be it.

            • No offense, Harpoona. But have you ever seen the Cohen Brothers movie starring Tom Hanks called “The Lady Killers”?

              You remind me of Goldthwaite Higginson Doyle, Phd.

              Any relation?🙂

              • Harpoona Frittata

                No, I missed that Tom Hanks movie; do you recommend it? I love everything the Cohen brothers have done, so I’ll definitely have to check it out.

                I have a couple different writing styles that I trot out as the occasion seems to require. I just made my debut here, and I did so with a particular purpose in mind, so this is me trying to mind my P’s and Q’s while being precise about what I was trying to convey.

                I’ve ventured into a lot of different-flavored message boards, many of them populated by folks I really don’t share much in common with, just to keep in touch with what’s going on out there and to see what, if any, common ground we shre between us. I’m kind of doing the same thing here and since there was so much bad blood recently between the different post-$cn community factions I was also trying to wade into it carefully, so as not to have run off screaming, with sprung rat traps trailing from my testicles, into the digital ether😉

                • First, you should watch “The Lady Killers” because it is an excellent specimen of the art of cinema.

                  My god. Roger Deakins is the Dir. Photography!

                  Whenever they kill someone in the movie, they drive the dead body to the top of a bridge over a river. They drop the body over the side, down onto a huge garbage barge slowly flowing underneath them.

                  This movie delivers some of the best cinematography in cinema.

                  Yet it’s ranked as one of the worst Cohen Brothers movies by critics.

                  Very few people are like me, though, when it comes to the Cohen Brothers.

                  So, yes. You should see it.

                  As for the rest of your posts in all your different arenae: Use fewer words, and state your point.

                  If someone asks you a question: Answer it.

                  Alanzo

            • Sure. Whatever whoever you are say.

            • Harpoon- If you want to get involved with this sort of movement, you have to realize there is a lengthy history to it. I sent one reply to you on another comment you made. Because you were correcting someone on improper use of quotation marks. When in fact, In America, that is how we use quotations. It is different from the UK. You were trying to belittle the person as though you are somehow far more intellectually superior. Piece of advice-you need to stop that sort of attitude. Or you will not last very long in conversing with us. This isn’t a contest of who can speak, spell, or type better.

              Your sole argument is trying to dictate on how we all should all think, behave, and act as a group. When you said previously you do not the history of this group. So you know nothing about us, yet we should obey your orders? Sounds to me like you like to get high off your self righteousness a bit.

              If you want to get involved in Scientology activism, talk to us in a down to earth fashion. The subject at hand is not about Scientology activism. It is about Karen & Ron Miscavige. Also, about how Karen likes to use people for her stage platform. When it is convenient for her.

              Now, if Marty writes a blog about how The ASC can unite, and we can all be friends…THEN we can discuss your ideas above. But something tells me, Marty is not gonna be writing about uniting friendships any time soon . lol Anyways, peace to you. Thanks for your thoughts🙂

  35. Heh everybody – any way we can get back to Suppressing Scientology? It is a lot more fun and productive. Start a blog….Write another book – make a movie – go on TV…but please…Keep Suppressing Scientology. It’s the right thing to do.

    • I think this is more fun actually lol🙂 Marty has a blog. We are responding to it. The right thing to do is openly communicate. Not suppress ourselves. Don’t be a suppressor dude. You’re being a major buzz kill :p

    • miscavigeisscaredofsam

      Hey! I’ve got an even better idea!!!! Let’s start a fund raiser for a new Independent Scientology organization and post Karen as the Commanding Officer (double hatred as the DSA and lead auditor of course) and Tony Ortega as the reg!!!!! Doesn’t that sound like so much fun?!!!!!!!!!!!
      Come on people! Let’s not throw the baby out with the bath water! It’s the right thing to do! Jesus! What can we do to persuade you good folks to drop all this justice nonsense and get with the smelly sock program?

    • The request that we look away from the “collateral damage” of the War on Scientology – of the petty witchhunts and paranoia enacted in anti-Scientology forums – and focus only on the Big Prize seems somewhat callous, somewhat “you can’t make an omelette without breaking eggs”. Almost as if it doesn’t matter if M. Rathbun is smeared and harrassed by ANTI-scientologists (after getting the Scientologists off his back) if it somehow helps destroy Scientology. As if the ends justify any means.

    • Gerhard Waterkamp

      I think your wish is long granted, but you may have failed to recognize it. Scientology abuse just comes in two major forms CO$ and ASC. Same sauce, different color. Both need be exposed to truth. So it is good the light of truth shines onto the darker souls of ASC as well.

      • You are a smart person and I agree with 100% of what you say. Whoever the heck you are. The ASC(as it is being called) has became a cult within itself. I’ve been saying that for a long time. And there are about 50 different splinter groups within the ASC. Or cliques I should say. It’s really stupid when I actually think about it.

  36. Amazing. After all the information that has been brought to light on this thread, what do you think those brilliant, brave, and noble folks on ESMB are discussing? Whether Marty wants to go back into the SO or not. Whether he technically CAN go back into the SO or not. And whether DM wants him back in the SO or not. (Face palm slap).

    Even though documented evidence has been brought forth that two years ago Karen herself outed Ron Miscavige, Sr’s confession to her that he did indeed rape that girl in Philadelphia, not a word that I have seen discussing this. Even though several women have accused David Love, the grrrrrreat Narconon fighter, of creepy sexual harassment, not a word about this either. And it is documented that he is a creep with a record for being a creep. Has used more than one name in his adult life. You are white, Canadian trash David. Go eff yourself. Leave the women alone. Punk.

    Oh no. They have to get to the bottom of why Marty is doing what he’s doing, and how much his checks from DM are.

    What a joke ESMB. What a joke. I haven’t even looked at the Bunker. Why bother? Same shit different format. Hate that effing format anyway. Discus sucks. Many of the posters suck harder. Both nasty and vapid.

    • Two thumbs up. LS telling it like it is!

    • Your definition of documented evidence, or proof, of things must be very different from mine. All I have seen is he said/she said from everybody. PS-I know nothing about the David Love situation at all.

      • The documented evidence was Karen’s own posting on ESMB in early 2014, which was copied and pasted on WWP by the poster Kitty Kat Spanker. I was not saying that it is documented evidence that Ron Miscavige is indeed guilty of rape. It’s documented evidence that Karen claims he told her that he did it. Which goes hand-in-hand with Marty’s original post for this thread.

    • I probably know who you are. But not under this alias. I gotta give you a high 5. Yes, ESMB sucks. Anyone who frequents that forum & takes it seriously are 1 of 2 types of people. #1-Active Scientologists who still love Hubtard. #2-Ex Scientologists who still love Hubtard. I never understood ESMB? It’s supposed to be for “Ex” Scientologists right? They all act like a bunch of damn Scientologists to me.

      • Thanks for the high 5. I do not agree with your two types of people who frequent ESMB though. The number of active Scientologists and Exes who still love Hubturd is infinitesimally small. Now, are some still acting like Scientologists to some respect? Yes. Behaviorally speaking.

      • Hi Marisa, very long time no talk. Don’t know if you remember me. You
        always had the rep of someone who would be outspoken. I once had a brief comm with your son who said the same.

        Nice vids.🙂

  37. Marisa – thank you so much for coming and posting here. I learned a lot from you, and I enjoyed getting to know you. Well, as much as one can on a computer who knows how many thousands of miles apart, but still, it was a really nice experience.

    Virginia

    P.S. And thank you Mark, for “making it safe”. It is appreciated.

    • Virginia, thank you. I appreciate you being a respectful person. I don’t really post on Marty’s blog a lot. I have joked with him saying “My mom is a fan of yours so I always ignored you.” lol I love my mom. But we have polar opposite stances when it comes to Scientology.

      I experienced Scientology from birth til about 22 years old. It’s not something positive to experience as a child. Because the sole purpose of Scio is continual mental manipulation. The whole focus is on your mind. What is wrong with you, and how screwed up you are. Experiencing this from the time you are 5 years old and being audited, is a lot different from an adult perspective.

      I am finding this a much safer place to express my thoughts than on the FB forums regarding Scientology. Even if Marty is showing this to OSA. I DON’T CARE! lol What is OSA going to do to any of us? Absolutely nothing. Are they going to write a blog about how I am telling the truth about how shitty they are? Nope. Maybe it’s because I have no criminal record and am boring as hell. Who knows? Point is-We need to speak our minds & stop this OSA paranoia shit.

      I would post more on Sp’s R Us like I used to. But Karen De La Careless ordered me removed. Whenever & wherever I become vocal, she orders me to be removed. So she can kiss my Mexican/American ass. I’ll keep dishing the dirt on her shady ass until she starts acting like a respectful human being. She thinks she can order people to unfriend me, and ban me from FB groups. Then I’ll go away. She’s silly🙂 By her trying to ban me, it has actually created 10 times the attention on how warped she is. Who the hell orders people to unfriend each other anyways? Weirdos do. Which is what she is known as these days.

      • @Marisa

        I suppose I should tell you I’m not always respectful. I can be a righteous B. when the occasion calls for it and am sometimes every bit the loud mouth you are. lol.

        Re: scn kids

        I wonder if you are aware of that there are some people posing as “critics” out there who will go so far as to trot out someone’s second-generation child as a method of trying to Dead Agent their mother?

        This happened to me at ESMB. My son re-wrote his childhood history to suit his new “victim of Virginia” story line. It was horrifying, and when my husband and I showed up to address this nastiness? We got banned.

        Was Karen behind this? I don’t know for sure, but she is tight with the woman that spearheaded all that – Nancy Many.

        This may not be a popular thing to say, but I think there are people that will stroke children of scientologists to shift their blame TO scientology AND their parents for their failings as adults.

        I think that’s just plain evil. If my child was trying to rewrite their history to explain why they made the extremely bad choices they did, as adults, I would certainly call them out on it, because it’s actually no different than the thing they claim to hate.

        Scientology tends to be a culture of blame, so here they are trying to continue the same error (even if it is now couched in psychological or non-scn terms) – it’s still the exact same irresponsibility.

        I think Karen is guilty of this with 2nd generation scientology kids – I think she may be pushing them to pick a “new” thing to blame – their scientology parent (s).

        – Virginia

      • I should probably add that we kept our children OUT of scientology organizations (meaning for indoctrination) because it was always our view that they were no place for most children to be. The only time two of our five children ever did an official course inside the church, was because their father (not my current husband) semi-forced it on them, not a pleasant experience for either of them compared to what they were used to at home.

        I think some children, granted, probably very few, can handle being in scientology at a young age, as I did, but it does take an extraordinarily strong-in-self person to do so and not fall prey to the mind manipulation that you are very right about.

        I have never believed that trait or ability or whatever, is a genetic thing though.

        Although I tried to bring that forward in my children, I didn’t always succeed. I don’t necessarily view that as a reflection on me because I believe that in the end it is and must be *their* choice as to how they are going to live and I don’t think it’s right for them to be influenced to cite any other source than themselves for why they do what they do.

  38. What a hot mess! This is why I try to avoid groups. Individual thought in what ever package it comes in, is the best. You may or may not agree with it but, you always learn something from it.

  39. Hey all of my fellow utopians who wish for a united galactic front.. Check this out. I’m receiving several friend requests since I’ve been posting here. I like making new friends. But I don’t like being a token Scientology friend. If you are going to send me a FB friend request, send me a PM. Say something to me. Either, “Marisa you are a stupid idiot” or “Marisa, you are awesome.” I made a promise to myself that I’d never exceed 300 FB friends. Now I’m up to 385 and it really bothers me. I’m sorta like a female Kurt Cobain when it comes to attention & fake admiration. I respect realness and genuinity. Don’t correct me on my grammar of genuinity, because I like saying it🙂 Anyways, I am not here to be ‘That Scientology girl that I’m FB friends with.” I hate that shit. Be my friend and talk to me. Like the famous quote from the Elephant Man Movie: “I AM NOT AN EX SCIENTOLOGIST. I AM A HUMAN BEING!” Goodnight people xo

  40. @Oracle

    You left a comment at our blog a while back that somehow got lost amongst a bunch of trolls comments. I have since responded to it (recently) but I was wondering if the email address submitted by you is still valid? Hint – it was a ymail one.

    If not, would you please leave another comment at our blog with your accurate email address? (we won’t publish it) There’s something I want to ask you about.

    – Virginia

    • Yes, you have the right email addy. I have been looking for one for you for the last few days. Laughter! Been riveted to current events here and getting a late start out. Will be able to check emails at lunch time and way late in the night. XXOO Rock on Virginia!

      • I kept looking at the email of your comment (at our blog) during that two days, so I did “get” that you wanted to email, lol, I just procrastinated on getting around to heck and see if that was the right addy.

  41. ……I’ve proven who I am so many times
    The magnetic strip’s worn thin
    And each time I was someone else
    And every one was taken in
    Powers chatter in high places
    Stir up eddies in the dust of rage
    Set me to pacing the cage…..

    ……Sometimes the best map will not guide you
    You can’t see what’s round the bend
    Sometimes the road leads through dark places
    Sometimes the darkness is your friend
    Today these eyes scan bleached-out land
    For the coming of the outbound stage.
    Pacing the cage. –Bruce Cockburn

  42. I can not Imagine what it would feel like to be raped.

    But I can imagine that control is taken away from you and persons do things to you against your will.

    I am glad we have a justice system because I could kill such perpetrators

    This business with trying to get me to publish Ron’s confession occurred while Ron was still with Scientology’s priesthood (the Sea Organization). So, here is the lesson in ASC ethics. A confessed rapist who is a Scientologist deserves life in the penitentiary. A confessed rapist who is an anti-scientologist deserves sainthood and the best defense money can buy. If you are with ASC against Scientology, you can get away with murder (or at least violent rape). If you don’t toe the party line, you are “bought off” or worse and are fair game for attack by those who themselves have long-since sold themselves. Kettle, meet pot.

  43. Dedicated to all you fellow loonies…

  44. Sam inbox me on why we protest: I am of course KittyKatSpanker on there.

  45. Ahh Hell….Might as well go for a soda….

  46. Sam, What is facefagging? Today’s language is evolving too fast for me to keep up.

  47. Question for our new arrival here – Michelle Sterling, or “Emma” of the Ex-Scientologist Message Board!

    Isn’t it true that one of the main functions of the Ex-Scientologist Message Board is to demean and discredit other Ex-Scientologists?

    As the head of something called The Ex-Scientologist Message Board, you would think that it would be a place of support for Ex-Scientologists. Yet besides the actual smear sites put up by OSA to try to discredit Ex-Scientologists who speak out about Scientology’s abuses, you really can’t find as much smear and degradation of other Exes than on ESMB.

    How does that make you feel, as an Ex-Scientologist yourself, to run operation like that?

    Alanzo

    • Apparently, she feels she is not responsible for anything that goes on there. Take that as you will.

      • Yes, it was such a handsome apology she’s given you for a decade of trashing you.

        What a wonderful human being.

        Alanzo

        • Here is my apology and my response to you.
          http://www.natterblog.com

          Enjoy🙂

          • Or in other words…..”I gotchur apology right here!” Lol….

          • It’s such good news that you are finally gone from having any influence over ESMB, Emma.

            You were truly the worst possible person to run that message board.

            Perhaps now Ex-Scientologists will have a better place to go to learn about Scientology after the Church.

            Best of luck to Ethercat!

            Alanzo

            • Well I hate this overall. I mean specifically if I post something positive about Emma then I may be viewed as siding against Alanzo. Or if I post something positive about Alanzo then I am against Emma. Neither is my goal or intention.

              Firstly, I’ve been meaning to tell you Alanzo that I read your dual posts on the tribal mindset and appreciated it greatly. It helped me to see where I have had a tribal mindset throughout my whole life. Not just regarding Scientology or Ex-Scientology. Good stuff!

              With regards to Emma…..well…..I just disagree that she’s as bad or horrible as you say. I know that you both had conflicts years before I joined ESMB, which was in Feb of 2012. So my perspective with Emma is totally different. In my opinion the tone on ESMB has worsened ever since she’s been hands off. Is that Ethercat’s fault? No, I don’t think so. I think it is just how the place has evolved. Or devolved. But I don’t think it’s either Emma’s, Ethercat’s, or any of the Moderator’s fault.

              Frankly I think it’s because a large number of the best posters are gone. A large percentage of the gossipers are left. They dominate the atmosphere now. Those who like to not only gossip, but psychoanalyze and say silly things like, “Marty must be back in the SO.” Lol… They come over here and speed read posts and then claim to know exactly what’s going on. Hell, I haven’t agreed with every sentence Marty has written. But I don’t say it’s because he’s nuts are taking payments from DM. Sheesh…

              Anyway. That’s all for now.

              • Well thanks for that, LS.

                I am not thinking that you are siding with anybody.

                I was on ESMB from its earliest days in 2007 until 2011, and I saw Emma definitely bring out the very worst in people there, just as you can see she is doing here.

                I know at least 7 long time, legendary critics who are cheering at their computers right now to know that Emma has finally left ESMB. From her earliest days on ARS, she was constantly trashing other critics in attempts to discredit them.

                Like she has shown here with Virginia, she still goes on nasty discrediting campaigns against critics and others – as she is doing right now with every person who is posting to this blog – calling the people here “loons” and rejects.

                I think less of that on the post Scientology Internet is better for everyone.

                Alanzo

                • Thank you Alanzo. Now that I see you have seen her latest discrediting effort at natterblog, I can answer your question that you asked me elsewhere.

                  One thing she has just proven is that she clearly has the exact same agenda of trashing me as she did in one of her very first posts to ESMB, a conversation with Terril Park, not too surprisingly.

                  The central theme of her “apology” – as she referred to it to you, is presenting a post that I made 11 years ago that is supposed to somehow prove the idea that I am a FREEZONER and SCIENTOLOGIST loon that believes in drilling telepathy with two dead Cult leaders who live on Marcab.

                  This is the same basic premise that she started out with attacking me about and what she is clearly still wanting to attack me about – even going so far as to make a whole new website in order to do it.

                  In a response to a “sock” over on Mark’s “How Gullible” post, I said the following.

                  ===
                  Do I get a different slur then? Let’s run through a partial list.

                  Freezoner? Nope, have nothing to do with those people.
                  Scientologist? Nope, not one of those either.
                  Believes in Marcabians? Nope. That was theater.
                  Believes that telepathy exists? Yep, that one is true.
                  Believes I was drilling telepathy with L Ron Hubbard and Captain Bill Robertson – both deceased? Nope. Names were changed to protect the still living guilty-as-charged telepaths *and* for theater purposes as well.
                  ====

                  Despite the fact that both Mike and I have discussed these very same points at ESMB, now here, and at our blog, Michelle is still determined to forward the OSA agenda.

                  I call it the OSA agenda for a very specific reason. My father, back in 2004/2005, was called up by the DSA OSA Portland. Gwen, the DSA, brought up the very same points, literally exactly, that Michelle has just proven that she has been promoting.

                  Gwen, the DSA, was trying to get my father to view me as crazy for talking about telepathic experiences – just like Michelle is now.

                  Michelle is all about splitting people away from me, as is Terril, and that is also very OSA of both of them.

                  Furthermore – in December of 2015, actually Christmas Eve/New Years-ish, Michelle jumps into one of the very threads related to my son that she alleges that she had no part in.

                  It is called Help!! Part 2. She knows who my son is, she knows that Mike, I, our daughter, and our son were ALL posting in that thread – and when things start looking too bad for THEM? She, others, together or singly, I know she was in on it – BANNED my husband, myself, and my daughter.

                  But NOT my son. No, *he’s* still free to roam on ESMB spewing his false tales of torture and abuse if he likes, with Terril Park most likely to be continuing cheering him on at regular intervals, a behavioral attribute that I have well documented that Terril has repeatedly done with my son. Terril enables his self-destructive behavior, and takes great pleasure in doing so.

                  Besides the above, Michelle, at her natterblog, has also proven that she is very much on board in portraying my son as “tortured” and having a “devastating story” that should be allowed on ESMB, also proving at the same time, that I definitely don’t have her confused with anyone else (as she attempted to spin in one of her earlier comments to me here.)

                  I hope that clarifies things a bit more for you Alanzo, re: what you asked me on the other post comments section.

                  Virginia

                  • Yes it does Virginia.

                    Thanks.

                    • A typo correction – December 2015 should read December 2014.

                      And additional information that a friend of mine put together some time back.

                      I’m marking his writings by ===== at beginning and end.

                      He starts out quoting from this post of mine from August 13, 2005 –

                      https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.scientology/-2albR3oADw/JLMWyu2636wJ

                      =====

                      “Russell Andrews was a Private Investigator with Triwest Investigative Services, Inc. which is listed in a Scientology publication called the Who What Where as having a phone number of 1-800-260-3484 and a number for Los Angeles Office as 323-254-5151. ”

                      Russell Andrews, had been ‘making the rounds’ of family and friends,
                      sometimes hiring out to other independent PI’s in the Northwest Area,
                      since 2004.

                      Russell contacted a close family member and in that conversation proceeded to try and turn this person against Virginia by saying:

                      ‘Did you know both her daughters are exotic
                      dancers?’

                      ‘Did you know Virginia says that she talks to L. Ron Hubbard?’

                      ‘Noone reads their site because it’s too wierd.’

                      Back around August of 2005, a whois search on http://www.scientologyintegrity.com and .net, done in 2005, showed the owner of these copycat domains (of Mike’s scientologyintegrity.org site) as being the Church of Scientology. Purchase date of 2002.

                      Gwen Barnard called up a close member of Virginia’s family who had been a Scientologist and said ‘Mike is channeling L. Ron Hubbard’.

                      =========

                      That was my father.

                      ============

                      Considering the degree of “talking to disembodied thetans” (telepathy) that goes on on the Church of Scientology Advanced Levels of OT3, OT 5, and OT7, you can see the stupidity of a Scientologist attempting to say this about someone even if they were talking to Hubbard telepathically.

                      Body Thetans, addressed on Operating Thetan Levels 3, 5, and 7, are DEAD as in their bodies are DEAD, just like Hubbard’s body is dead. So by Gwen’s logic, everyone on those levels, (which includes Marty’s current upper level delivery practice) IS CHANNELING DEAD PEOPLE.

                      Unfortunately for Gwen’s credibility, Scientology’s own materials do not call it channeling, it is called TELEPATHY and it is part of Scientology’s sacrosanct TECHNOLOGY to talk to them thusly.

                      This person she attempted to run this little number on to have Mike viewed as “crazy” for doing something all Scientologists who do advanced levels do, said to Gwen “Well, you’re a Scientologist aren’t you, why do you think that is so strange?” Gwen got herself out of that call in a hurry after that. – FAILED OP.

                      Gwen did not try this particular tack again, but she started to repeatedly call the family member at home and tried to get the family member to contact Mike instead of doing it themelves, and attempted to pressure the family member in various ways. When told to do it themselves, Gwen, in an attempt to Black PR Virginia directly to the family member, said ‘Will Virginia allow me to talk to Mike?’ Virginia was right in her take on this that Gwen did.

                      ======
                      Also all to my father.
                      ==========

                      Virginia also said back in 2005:

                      https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.scientology/-2albR3oADw/JLMWyu2636wJ

                      “This is the ‘Virginia controls Mike’ (ergo Mike is some sort of slave) Black Propaganda line first started here at our house by Erica Hauri wife of Max Hauri”

                      Considering both Russell and Gwen’s behavior, it was no surprise that after failing at all previous attempts to not have to deal with Mike or Virginia directly, Russell Andrews called Mike (but blocks his caller ID) and told Mike that he was returning Mike’s call to the PI hired in Seattle to try and talk to one of Virginia’s daughters (who refused) last summer. Mike had never called Russell. But he did know what PI this was that Russell was trying to refer to. Mike had called that particular PI in 2004, and the PI told Mike that he was hired by the Church. This PI had backed off the case because, as he told Mike, he was disgusted by what he was being asked to do. Russell did not know about that conversation, and so Mike thought it quite humorous that Russell was trying to intimidate Mike by “revealing” that the Church had hired that PI too (as if Mike didn’t know).

                      Joe Lisa, is an Ex-Guardian’s Office Bureau 1 Intelligence man, who was Deputy Guardian for Intelligence for the United States for a while also.

                      Mike then received a ‘Joe Lisa’ email, in which “Joe” talks about how badly he has been doing since he started talking to Mike, he has Diabetes now, blind, etc. etc., then tries to get Mike to give “Joe” the domain. – FAILED OP

                      The Church was forced into direct and live interaction and on August 2, 2005 at 11:18Am Gwen Barnard calls and leaves a message in which she does not delineate just what her post is in the Church.

                      Virginia and Mike wrote about this in 2005:

                      https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.scientology/-2albR3oADw/JLMWyu2636wJ

                      ” Mike returns the call and gets her answering machine and leaves a message. At 1:09PM Gwen calls back and proceeds to try and get Mike to give her the domain. There were some very interesting tactics in this call, one of which was when Mike indicated all the failed attempts of their operatives (one of which was a front call by someone else for Pierre Ethier), etc. etc., Gwen not only does she pretend she doesn’t know who Joe Lisa and others are, but she says in a very 1.1 [in a very covertly hostile fashion] ‘You don’t trust anybody.’ which is an accusation of it being an Anti-Social characteristic to not trust their lying operatives.”

                      [“Anti-Social” is from the Scientology materials as to supposedly what are the characteristics that delineate a person to be a Suppressive, or Anti-Social person]

                      “…Also of note, is that Mike brought up,’Are you going to bring up the I’m channelling L. Ron Hubbard lie next?’ She says ‘I’m not going to get into that.’ Mike then basically calls her on the fact that no Scientologist would have a problem with communicating telepathically to another thetan, nor would they call it ‘channelling’.”

                      Gwen, of course, had no answer for this. It is one thing to try and run what she did on theoretically unsuspecting and uneducated targets, it is quite another thing to try and manipulate Mike and Virginia.

                      ====

                      Looks like several people are still invested in “doing their job”.

                      Virginia

  48. Pingback: My response to Alanzo and others from Marty’s blog ::

  49. Add – thing have only escalated since then (2005) up to and including recruiting my children to publicly trash me, declaring my in his 70’s father a Suppressive Person and now running ops on HIM. Costing him jobs, setting him up for an IRS audit – the list goes on.

    Such wonderful human beings, indeed.

    Virginia

  50. Hello everybody.

    I like this article, as it is balancing the Scn critics, which went far out of range of a common sence and reason. Most of such raving critics are pts-es, total effects of that, what they are opposing. Glued to the opp. terminal by a mystery of not knowing what Scientology really was, they are manifesting insanity of “want withdraw – can’t withdraw”. Overloaded with overts against the subject and it’s people, poor guys are so stuck in that pity condition. Blind and deaf to all the goods there is in Scientology, looking only to the bad side, critics aren’t getting the whole picture and never can as-is to let it go.

    Demonstration of ability to percieve and to reason at source would be the clear marks of the healthy mind. Unfortunately, lots of fighters around Scn subject on the both sides of the fence are lacking this pre-requisite qualities.

    With love from Siberia,
    Tatiana.

    PS: Congratulations with a new President!🙂

Leave a Reply

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in:

WordPress.com Logo

You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. Log Out / Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out / Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out / Change )

Google+ photo

You are commenting using your Google+ account. Log Out / Change )

Connecting to %s